Darth Vader ( OWK series) vs Count Dooku ( ROTS)

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BreakingThrones

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All canon and the arena is the same as where Vader fought Obi Wan

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LightorDark

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#2  Edited By LightorDark

Dooku wins. He was on par with Yoda in AOTC, and he has lightning.

Dooku doesn’t have to contend with two enemies, like he did on the Invisible Hand in ROTS, so he can focus on dueling, incorporate lightning, and screw up Vader’s suit before Vader’s hard strikes can break his defense.

Dooku is an underrated Sith. Sidious was clearly worried that Dooku and Ventress could overthrow him.

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ReRisen

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Vader. Should be superior to the Anakin that beat Dooku.

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CryoLancer47

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#4 CryoLancer47  Online

Vader stomps Dooku in Force-Power. And bodies him in Sabers. His lightning, which is his only hope to mess Vader up, doesn't come anywhere near RoTS Sidious. Who's lightning Vader managed to tank after getting his suit. And Vader's durability and stamina >> Dooku’s.

Dooku has no answer to contend in anything but Force-Power. And even then, he loses because Vader is > Anakin, and has accolades that put him above even Yoda.

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LightorDark

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@cryolancer47: Dooku was one of the best duelist in the era. He won’t be holding back the first part of the fight, and he could abuse lightning. Palpatine also won’t be there to fuel Anakin’s rage.

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CryoLancer47

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#6  Edited By CryoLancer47  Online
@lightordark said:

@cryolancer47: Dooku was one of the best duelist in the era. He won’t be holding back the first part of the fight, and he could abuse lightning. Palpatine also won’t be there to fuel Anakin’s rage.

Indeed. Main word being ONE OF THE. He's not the best. And weaker versions of Anakin that are < Base RoTS can keep up and give him a decent fight in Sabers. And even pressing him at times.

And Vader offically surpassed Anakin and has accolades that back that up + his Juggernaut strength being another advantage over Dooku.

And he won't hold back? Who even brought up Dooku holding back into this? How weak do you think Vader is in Sabers?

Also, why even bring Palpatine in here? Vader doesn't need him to fuel his rage. He has enough by this point in time and the comics to do the same against Dooku's lightning.

Dooku isn't fodder, but he ain't winning this. Vader/Anakin have better scaling and accolades than his.

His fancy style and light/quick cuts won't matter much against Vader. Who already knows how to deal with it from prior experience.

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LightorDark

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#7  Edited By LightorDark

@cryolancer47: In the ROTS novelization, it specifically states that Dooku was holding back against Obi and Anakin early in the fight because he was supposed to lose. It also states that Dooku’s age made a prolonged fight hard to win.

It goes on again to state that once Anakin gained the upper hand, Dooku’s taunt shut Anakin’s offense down, and Dooku was in control again, but Sidious fuel Anakin’s rage, giving him the upper hand in the fight.

I don’t think Vader is weak in sabers, but he is seriously wanked on CV.

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nassergrant19

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Vader negs

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#9  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous  Online

Concerning their on-screen depiction, at the time of their climatic rematch aboard the Invisible Hand, an unleashed Anakin Skywalker -- aka, Darth Vader -- was supposed to be even more powerful than Count Dooku. After all, Darths Sidous and Tyranus orchestrated the whole confrontation to determine as much, and in prevailing, the future Lord Vader proved himself stronger than any of the Emperor's previous pupils. Given the fact that by the time of the Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi series, Darth Vader is supposed to be in his prime, Lord Tyranus will be facing a raging adversary more powered-up than ever before -- in particular, more-so than the last time they clashed, wherein Tyranus found himself forcibly relieved of his hands.

On the other hand, this engagement will be not handled with the usual care, for presumably, Darth Tyranus is allowed to cut loose in this encounter. Last time 'round, the elder combatant held back of his own accord, being under the impression that he was, in coordination with Darth Sidious, simply testing young Anakin Skywalker; feeling out the abilities of an incoming recruit; drilling a trainee. Darth Tyranus wanted to lose that fight, for that would mark the success of the operation -- Skywalker, soon to be Darth Vader, would have proved strong enough to become a fellow Sith Lord. If Skywalker failed, the Sith would let the young man escape, then wait several more years before scheduling another trial. Therefore, in his quest to convert Anakin Skywalker, Count Dooku actively encouraged his adversary to grow more powerful, to access greater strength through his emotions. Darth Sidious had pledged to intervene, to prevent any harm from befalling Lord Tyranus -- seeing as how it was only a sparring contest from Tyranus' point of view, for Skywalker viewed it as a life-or-death, high-stakes, no-holds-barred brawl to the death -- and as we well know, instead allowed Skywalker to maim and execute the stunned Count.

Darth Vader at his apex versus a serious Darth Tyranus? Tough call, but I believe I would favour the older of the two. Count Dooku is not quite so powerful, but he's more cunning and experienced -- he's very much ahead in the mental game, which is where Vader tends to be most vulnerable. More to the point, the elder Count is clearly the more effective fighter, comparing their respective duels with, say, Obi-Wan Kenobi. While Darth Vader's battles with Master Kenobi are back-and-forth, lengthy, exceedingly competitive, the Sith Lord's advantage often uncertain, Darth Tyranus repeatedly makes quick work of the very same Jedi Master, even when Anakin Skywalker is present. Indeed, whenever Master Kenobi is dispatched by Count Dooku, Anakin Skywalker is too.

It would be harrowing, but in the end, Darth Tyranus' superior skills and greater experience should pull out ahead of Darth Vader's power.

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CryoLancer47

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#10  Edited By CryoLancer47  Online

@lightordark:

I’m the ROTS novelization

You mean in? Cause I legit thought you said I'm lol.

it specifically states that Dooku was holding back against Obi and Anakin early in the fight because he was supposed to lose.

The novelization is a secondary source. You can use it when it doesn't contradict anything. Which is Anakin being able to keep up with Dooku and press him in TCW series since season 4 and Their other encounters.

It also states that Dooku’s age made a prolonged fight hard to win.

Yeah. But he was only dealing with Anakin. Kenobi was fodderized by Dooku. And even he considered him fodder:

And depending on the continuity. Dooku considers Base RoTS Kenobi either fodder or too predictable:

As well Dooku casually humiliating RoTS Kenobi:

Dooku is capable of humiliating Kenobi by a surprise choke, or because he's "Too clumsy & predictable" for him. Depending on the medium you use:

No Caption Provided

Which shows a clear difference between the two. Kenobi's performance is that of a jabroni in comparison to base Anakin. Who managed to at least keep up on multiple occasions against the Count in his weaker TCW versions. Kenobi's the one that always gets negged more than he keeps up.

So the main issue was Anakin. Who managed to stay for that long against Dooku to exhaust him.

It's not our fault that Dooku is old. Yoda is older than him and uses the Force to be able to do his acrobatics. So Dooku getting exhuasted is more of an indicator of how good Anakin is than Dooku just being old and tired because the fight got longer. Which happened in the first place because Anakin pressed him and gave him an actual challenge.

It goes on again to state that once Anakin gained the upper hand, Dooku’s taunt shut Anakin’s offense down, and Dooku was in control again,

And that's nice. But does not change the fact that base Anakin was pressing him in CQC up to that point and keeping up to 2:10:

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And after the taunt at 2:10 is where Anakin gets hyped up and become Zonakin by giving into his emotions. Which is where Dooku gets stomped. And correct me if I'm wrong. But doesn't it state in the novelization that at that point all the years of Dooku’s training and mastery became a joke? A circus act, even?

And Vader, unlike base Anakin, is tapping into his emotions, specifically anger, 24/7 whenever he needs a boost.

I don’t think Vader is weak in sabers, but he is seriously wanked on CV.

And rightfully so. Because his scaling is comfortably above that of Dooku and base Anakin in Sabers. The former getting pressed by the latter on his own.

You not liking the wank on Cv is a different subject. It doesn't change the fact that Vader's accolades and scaling put his speed, strength, and durability above Dooku and Zonakin:

Physical Capabilities

General Accolades

Vader's armor both sustains and enhances his body:

Widely feared as Emperor Palatine's deadliest enforcers, Darth Vader is, in reality, a tormented soul imprisoned inside life-supporting armor that both sustains his horrifically damaged body and enhances it, with advanced prostheses, and augmented sensory, skeletal and nervous systems.

-- Ultimate Star Wars

Speed/Mobility

19 BBY Vader seemingly appears out of nowhere (credit to Dawn_Of_Ages):

No Caption Provided

Vader forms 6 afterimages out of his blade:

No Caption Provided

Vader creates a barrier around his body with his lightsaber, while simultaneously deflecting omnidirectional laser fire:

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Vader moves with preternatural speed and swings his lightsaber as a blur:

Vader was forty meters from her. He stood up straight, towering over the crew near him. He was looking right at her, his lightsaber held at his side, and she could feel the weight of his regard pressing against her like a punch. He exploded into motion, moving toward her at preternatural speed, his strides devouring the deck space between them. Crew scrambled out of the way at his approach, his dark form knifing through them.

She raised her blasters and took aim, shooting as fast as she could pull the triggers, scribing the air between them with lines of red energy. Vader didn't slow his sprint and his lightsaber was a blur as he came on, deflecting her shots in all directions. A few came back at her. One hit the pallet and sent tools skittering along the deck. Another scorched the bulkhead beside her, but still she fired.

The crew in the corridor panicked, scrambling in all directions. An officer got in Vader's way, slowing his approach for a moment, and Vader tossed him aside with his free hand as if the man weighed no more than a child.

Isval! Eshgo said from behind her.

Vader was twenty meters and closing.

She was shouting, firing, but her shots could not get past the line of his lightsaber. She didn't understand how it was possible, until her own words came back to her: Vader was not a man.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Deflecting fire from a freighter:

The freighters opened fire, writing thick lines of plasma onto the air. The shots churned the ground, destroyed trees, heated the air of the clearing; one slammed into the chest of a Royal Guard and vaporized all of him save for his helmet.

Lost in the Force, Vader anticipated the shots that would have hit him, saw the appropriate angles of impact and deflection, and used the rapid spinning of his lightsaber to turn first one, then a second, and then a third shot not into the tree line but back at the ships, the heat and energy of the blaster shots driving him backward, warming the hilt of his weapon, a heat he could feel even through his glove.

-- Lords Of The Sith

He moves his blade impossibly fast:

Beak was shooting, too—Namir could hear the sound of energized particles scorching cold air across the hall, but he didn’t dare look. Vader didn’t hesitate or fall. Instead, something appeared in his hand between the pulses of crimson light and suddenly he was holding a weapon, a blade of coherent energy that danced with a twist of his wrist. If Vader had been protected by a force field, it appeared no longer necessary: his energy blade deflected bolts impossibly swiftly, humming and buzzing and crackling as it swept aside a storm of fire.

-- Battlefront: Twilight Company

Keeping up with Ezra and Kanan while holding back:

Loading Video...

Leaping over a Lylek's attack:

Feeling danger behind, he spun and lopped off the two front legs of another lylek that was poised to impale him through the back. He leapt atop its flailing, skittering body, riding it for a time while his blade slashed and stabbed at its fellows. He ended the creature's squeals of pain by driving his blade down and through its abdomen.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Leaping above a mass of Lyleks:

Wanting a moment to gather himself and check on his Master, he jumped high above the teeming mass of lyleks to a ledge five meters up on the wall, using the Force to augment his leap. The creatures he had just escaped gnashed their mandibles, waved their tentacles, and tried to climb over one another in their frustration as they scrabbled at the side of the wall.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Vader and Sidious show the speed and agility to dodge the Lylek queen's attacks. Noting that the queen's speed was compared to a lightning strike:

Vader and the Emperor stood in the shadow of the queen's towering form. Her respiration was audible in the sudden lull, loud and wet. Each of her six legs was a meter and a half in circumference, and the spikes they ended in looked like sword blades. Her squirming tentacles (four instead of two) were ten meters long, as thick as a man's waist, and ended in glistening points of chitin that leaked some kind of ichor, or perhaps poison. Her mouth could easily bite a person in half.

She advanced slowly, tentacles squirming, the ends of her legs striking the ground with a clipped, staccato rhythm. She lowered her head and hissed as she came on. Her mandibles worked the empty air.

Vader's Master wore the same knowing half smile he seemed always to wear. Shall we begin, Lord Vader?

Vader answered only with the sound of his breathing.

The queen exploded into motion and so, too, did Vader and the Emperor. A tentacle lashed at Vader and he leapt over it, sidestepping a second tentacle, and chopped down with his blade. He missed as the queen snapped the tentacle back, his blade putting a charred furrow in the stone of the floor. He leapt high over her, flipping at the apex of his trajectory, and as he descended he took his blade in a two-handed grip and pointed it downward to impale her.

She lurched sidewise and lashed out with a tentacle, which struck him squarely and knocked him to the floor. She turned as though to advance on him, but his Master sprang before her, jumping, twirling, and ducking under the rapid swings of her tentacles and the spikes of her legs. His lightsaber slashed rapidly at every opening, striking the tentacles but scarring them only, not severing them.

The queen lunged toward his Master and he flipped backward, landing a few paces away. Vader jumped to his feet, spinning out of the way of her attempt to stab him with the chitinous spike at the end of one of her tentacles. He found himself face-to-face with five lyleks, all of them hissing, tentacles squirming. He stabbed one through the head, backflipped high over another, hit the ground, and severed its rear legs.

To his right his Master gestured and, with the Force, lifted two of the lyleks from the floor. Vader and his Master exchanged no words, but each knew precisely what the other intended. With a casual throwing motion, the Emperor flung the two lyleks in Vader's direction, their legs and tentacles squirming, bellies exposed. Slashing and turning a rapid spin, Vader bisected both of them; the four gory pieces that remained fell to the floor in a heap.

From above, blaster shots slammed into the lylek that remained before him, with several shots bouncing off its carapace before one finally caught it in the head and put it down. Vader glanced up to see Deez kneeling in the tunnel's mouth, blaster rifle lowered, firing down into the melee.

Vader reflexively slashed with his lightsaber as another lylek scrabbled toward him. The blade took off the legs and left the creature squealing and spasming. He saw his Master dodging the rapid, repeated strikes of the queen's tentacles. The Emperor twisted and spun and leapt, slashing with his lightsaber where he could, and where the blade bit into the thick tentacles it opened black gashes that leaked a thick ichor. The pain seemed only to make her angrier.

Vader leapt high and landed at his Master's side. The queen roared and loosed a flurry of strikes. Working in tandem, they parried her blows, counterstruck, opened dozens of holes in her tentacles, their blades spinning blurs before them. Her very bulk slowly pushed them backward, and from time to time they had to turn their attention to a lylek that rushed them or tried to jump them from the side. Moving almost as one, the two Sith Lords turned and spun around an unspoken central point, parrying, slashing, killing. Frustrated, the queen rushed toward them with surprising speed. Her huge body slammed into them both, knocking them backward. Quick as a lightning strike, she struck with snapping mandibles.

The Emperor fell flat to the floor to avoid the bite and she slammed her legs down at him like so many pikes, each blow chipping the stone of the floor. He rolled and spun underneath the mountain of her body while Vader slashed at her tentacles, the ichor from her many wounds spraying in all directions. She was trying simply to smash his Master with her mass, but Vader perceived her intent, raised a hand, and held her up, straining, grunting for the fraction of a moment that it took for his Master to roll out from under her. And then they were at her again, their blades humming and cutting. She hissed, wounded tentacles flailing, legs stomping, and bounded backward in a crouch.

Emperor! Deez shouted from above, and fired at the queen as rapidly as he could pull the trigger.

The shots bounced off her carapace and ricocheted wildly around the chamber. Vader used his lightsaber to deflect one into the face of the lylek nearest him, killing it. Beside him, his Master split the head of a lylek that lunged at him. Vader decided to finish matters.

Master, he said, and nothing more.

Go, the Emperor said.

Vader sprinted forward and leapt high. The moment he reached the apex of his jump, his Master seized him with the Force and flung him the rest of the way so that he landed atop the queen's back.

Immediately she bucked, tentacles flailing, and he drove his lightsaber down into her back. To his surprise, the blade only bit partially and then slipped to the side. She screamed and hissed with agony. He grasped it two-handed again, preparing another blow, but she reared up hard, bucking, and flung him to the floor. He landed near his Master, who grabbed him by the arm and heaved him to his feet with uncanny strength.

She whirled around at them and whipped her tentacles at Vader and his Master, following with a lunge forward and a vicious bite at Vader. They sidestepped her attacks, once more falling into their usual rhythm, and crosscut at her head with their lightsabers. Both blades struck home. The Emperor tore a long gash in the armored exoskeleton of her head, and Vader destroyed one eye. She shrieked and reared backward, eye socket leaking gore, tentacles whipping wildly. Deez continued to pour down fire at her, but the shots appeared to do her little or no harm. Still, the distress of their queen drove the remaining lyleks into a frenzy, and they charged from all sides.

Vader bounded backward, leapt high up on the wall, and hung with one hand from a narrow ledge, his boots planted on the stone. He'd assumed his Master would do the same, but he hadn't. Instead, his Master stood in the center of a crowd of the creatures, spinning, whirling, slashing, killing. Deez diverted his fire from the wounded queen to the lyleks attacking the Emperor, but the frenetic motion of the combat prevented him from aiming accurately, and his shots bounced off their carapaces in all directions.

The queen recovered enough to survey the scene and her eye fell on Vader, perched as he was on the wall, seemingly vulnerable, and she lurched toward him, shrieking. She pushed through the lyleks around her, her tentacles squirming wildly, grasping for him. Her remaining eye fixed on him and her mouth opened wide in a prolonged hiss.

Below, an explosion of Force lightning shredded a handful of lyleks and left his Master standing in the center of a circle of charred, dead creatures. He made eye contact with Vader, nodding, and Vader knew to hold his position as the queen closed.

His Master raised both hands and sent a storm of Force lightning into the queen, enmeshing her in sizzling blue lines. She screamed and spasmed in agony, her mandibles parting wide to reveal the rows of her teeth as the lightning tore at her carapace and the organs underneath, burning her inside and out.

Vader acted quickly. Drawing on the Force, he leapt off the wall straight at her head. Despite her pain, she managed to snatch him out of midair with a tentacle, seizing him around the waist and squeezing. His armor creaked under the strain and he shouted with pain but, as ever, let the pain draw him deeper into the Force.

She lifted him high and jerked him toward her slashed face, the ruin of her eye, her mouth opened wide to hiss, exactly as he'd anticipated.

Finish her! his Master shouted.

He threw his lightsaber at her open mouth, guiding it with the Force, causing it to spin as rapidly as a rotor as it flew into her gullet. She gagged, recoiled, one good eye wide with pain and confusion, as Vader maintained his mental hold on his spinning blade, cutting her apart from the inside out. Desperately, instinctively, she drove the spiked, poisoned tip of another tentacle at his chest.

Enmeshed in the Force, he caught the spike in his gauntleted fist and stopped it before it reached his armor. He grunted with pain, with exertion, the thick, muscular appendage of the giant creature straining against his Force-fueled strength. He was the stronger, and stared into her face as his lightsaber tore through her innards and his Master's lightning charred her flesh.

She screamed again in a final burst of agony, and the hulking remains of her body collapsed to the floor, taking Vader, clutched now in a limp tentacle, with her. He hit the floor in a crouch along with the bulk of her carcass, shook off the tentacle, and recalled his lightsaber to his hand. The blade cut through her carcass and returned to his hand, slick with fluid.

The remaining lyleks shrieked and chittered, tentacles and legs jerking wildly. Deez continued to blast at them.

Vader met the eyes of his Master, standing five meters away, and both nodded. Immersed in the Force, they set about slaughtering the remaining lyleks. The lines of their lightsabers rose and fell, rose and fell, and the confused, stunned beasts barely defended themselves. Soon the floor was carpeted in carcasses, and Vader and his Master were the only living things standing amid the carnage.

His Master's cackle filled the silence. Both deactivated their blades.

Well done, my friend, the Emperor said.

Back up in the tunnel, Deez used the high-tensile cable integrated into his belt to rappel down the wall. He picked his way through the slaughter, obviously trying and failing to control the expression of awe on his face, until he stood before Vader and the Emperor. He took a knee, his fist to his chest.

My Emperor.

The captain? Vader asked.

Killed by one of the creatures, Lord Vader, Deez said as he stood. His body is not recoverable.

To Vader, the Emperor's mind seemed to be elsewhere. He may have heard Deez or not; Vader could not tell.

I think we should leave this place before it starts to stink, the Emperor said finally. This is the way to the surface, I'm quite sure.

Together, Vader, the Emperor, and Deez moved quickly through the tunnels, ever upward, back toward the surface. They stayed alert for lyleks, but the tunnels were empty. The entire nest must have been annihilated.

The creatures struggled when the queen died. When the head is removed, the body must soon die,†the Emperor commented.

Vader said nothing, merely looked at his Master.

Do you not see? That's why we're hunted, Lord Vader. The rebels hope to cut the head from the Empire.

Of course, Vader said. It was unlike his Master to state something so obvious except with a purpose. And?

His Master adorned his face with his usual half smile. Many things are that way, even some relationships. If the head is removed, the body cannot exist alone. The relationship is complementary, almost symbiotic.

Vader understood his point then. Yes, Master.

The roll of thunder reverberating through the stone told them they were nearing the surface. The tunnel they traversed gradually narrowed until they could move only single-file. Deez led, and Vader came last.

Ahead, Vader saw that the tunnel was blocked. He could hear the sound of dripping water and falling rain from behind the blockage. Deez climbed amid the rubble, trying to peer through it.

We're right at the end, he said. I can see the outside through a crack in this rockfall. Probably a rockslide caused by the rain. We'll need to clear it, my lords.

Vader and the Emperor stepped around Deez, faced the tons of rock and dirt, and both felt deeply into the Force. As one, they raised their hands, summoned their collective power, and loosed a sudden blast that was more powerful than a grenade. Rock and dirt exploded outward, no doubt traveling high into the night sky.

Beyond, they could see the trunks of trees and falling rain.

It's clear, Sergeant, said the Emperor with a smile.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Vader moves with even greater speed than Sidious.

With preternatural speed the Emperor drew, ignited, and slashed at the girl with his lightsaber, but Vader had sensed his Master's intent and moved with greater speed, igniting his own blade and intercepting his Master's blow before it could land.

-- Lords Of The Sith

The value of this feat is questionable, however, because Vader later mused that the Emperor was holding back to test him:

Vader looked from his Master to the dark mouth of the mine inside of which Drua and the rest of the villagers had fled. He felt the Emperor's eyes on him, the intensity of the gaze, the weight of his expectations, and Vader knew that the day's events had been only half about depleting a rebel movement before it could grow. They had also, as Vader had suspected, been about testing him, forcing him to face the ghosts of his past and exorcise them forever and fully. He saw that more clearly now; saw, too, that his Master was right to administer the test. It also explained why his Master had shown so little of his true power throughout the day. Perhaps he'd wanted Vader to rely on himself to overcome the challenges they'd faced. Or perhaps he'd wanted to seem weaker than he was, to draw out any treacherous ambitions Vader may have held.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Cutting down a repair crew before they could react:

Vader stepped from the lift and used the Force to augment his speed, sprinting through the smoky, crowded corridors. He saw a Twi’lek repair crew ahead, four men and a woman. They navigated an antigrav tool-and-parts pallet through the corridor, and nothing about them looked suspicious. He didn’t care. He ignited his lightsaber, and when he did, the Imperials in the corridor parted before him, wide-eyed, confused.

The Twi’leks had only a moment to register his approach before he cut them down in rapid succession. He left five corpses and a hall full of gawking troops behind him as he pelted onward.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Casually deflecting dozens of blaster bolts:

She looked up, saw the V-wings turning sharply to come back in on an attack vector. They must have found something along the top of the quarry at which to shoot.

Movement outside the ship caught her eye, and when she saw the source, it caught her breath.

Lord Vader strode heedlessly through the crossfire, cape flowing out behind him, his lightsaber cutting the air before him, deflecting dozens of blaster shots back at the Twi'leks, killing one, another, another. He did it all almost casually, as though his mind was on other things. The black lenses of his helmet were fixed upward, at the rim of the quarry.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Moving preternaturally fast:

As Mors watched, Vader exploded into motion, moving at a preternatural speed that left her mouth hanging open stupidly. Vader was heading directly for the side of the quarry, which was too steep for an ordinary man to scale.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Repelling blaster fire and moving his blade fast enough to turn the air red:

Those V-wings are coming back around, Goll said, firing down into the quarry at Vader, who was sprinting across the quarry's floor, coming on so fast that Cham would not have believed it had he not seen it. Isval had both pistols out and aimed, firing red lines at Vader. Cham was shooting as fast as he could, too, but Vader's blade was faster, deflecting every shot, sending fully half of them back at Isval and Cham and Goll, causing them to duck and cover.

When Vader reached the steep-walled side of the quarry he bounded up, caught a hold on some protuberance or other, crouched, and bounded up again.

That's impossible, Goll muttered, but he kept firing.

Isval knew better. She'd seen what Vader could do. Nothing he did surprised her.

And now he was coming for them.

They kept firing, leaning out over the lip of the quarry to fire down the steep side, but Vader's lightsaber turned the air red before him and none of their shots so much as touched him. He leapt from one spot to the next, ascending, pausing only for a moment upon landing to tense before leaping again and ascending farther.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Vader casually parries two lightsaber blows from behind without even looking at his attackers:

No Caption Provided

He displays enough speed to keep up with Ahsoka, in spite of the latter being a very fast and exceptionally agile Force user:

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Strength

He tears apart a metal door, seemingly with his raw strength alone, a feat he accomplished shortly after ROTS:

He tosses an officer aside as if the latter weighed no more than a child:

The crew in the corridor panicked, scrambling in all directions. An officer got in Vader's way, slowing his approach for a moment, and Vader tossed him aside with his free hand as if the man weighed no more than a child.

Credit to Brightsteel

-- Lords of the Sith

He is stronger than the Lylek queen, blocking one of her tentacles with one hand:

Desperately, instinctively, she drove the spiked, poisoned tip of another tentacle at his chest.

Enmeshed in the Force, he caught the spike in his gauntleted fist and stopped it before it reached his armor. He grunted with pain, with exertion, the thick, muscular appendage of the giant creature straining against his Force-fueled strength. He was the stronger, and stared into her face as his lightsaber tore through her innards and his Master's lightning charred her flesh.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Supporting Ahsoka's full weight with one hand (credit to Azronger):

No Caption Provided

Vader displays enough strength to crush a Holocron:

He is impossibly strong, tossing Kananand Ezra aside as if they were weightless:

Loading Video...

He slowly approaches the Jedi, towering over them. As they fight, he's impossibly strong, dueling with ease and tossing the Jedi and Padawan aside as if they were weightless.

-- http://www.starwars.com/tv-shows/star-wars-rebels/the-siege-of-lothal-episode-gallery

He shows enough strength to heavily strain Ahsoka Tano. Noting that Padawan Tano was strong enough to push back the likes of Grievous in a bladelock:

Loading Video...

Durability/Stamina/Pain tolerance

A far from prime Vader withstands being torched by two flamethrowers, seemingly with ease (credit to Dawn_Of_Ages):

No Caption Provided

He casually tanks blaster fire and kills some hunters (credit to Dawn_Of_Ages):

No Caption Provided

Vader withstands lightning, and remains conscious enough that he could still have killed Tarkin had he chosen to (credit to Dawn_Of_Ages):

Withstanding AT-AT fire:

Vader survives a massive explosion that destroyed the Sith temple of Malachor and part of the area around it, seemingly without sustaining any severe injury.

Loading Video...

Noting that the Sith temple was a superweapon powered by a kyber crystal, the explosion of the latter being potent enough to create a massive shockwave that atomized/destroyed several Tie fighters and Gozanti-class cruisers:

Loading Video...

Tanking a lightsaber blow:

No Caption Provided

Withstanding a blaster bolt:

No Caption Provided

Shortly after his reconstruction, he tanks Rots Palpatine's lightning, and even manages to stand up with no apparent difficulty afterwards, though the Emperor was holding back:

He withstands being thrown against a wall by a water wave, and proceeds to blast the water surrounding him away:

An already injured Vader resists Palpatine's lightning for long enough to hurl him down a reactor before dying:

Dooku's lightning won't do much to him. And he can tank it and keep fighting.

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#11  Edited By crclopezos

The guy who defeated Obi-wan wins.

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@lightordark:

I’m the ROTS novelization

You mean in? Cause I legit thought you said I'm lol.

I AM THE NOVELIZATION! HAHAHA. I made the edit already.

The trouble is that everyone with a saber that Vader beat after his fight with Dooku, which is a highly debatable fight given the sources, wasn't nearly on Dooku's level. The armor feats are impressive, but his armor essentially tanked a lightsaber in ESB.

I am not arguing that Dooku's lightning alone would beat Vader, but him using it during saber combat changes the fight.

Moving at preternatural speed isn't a big feat. It just means what is above normal. All Jedi and Sith should have this ability via the Force.

No Caption Provided

The reason why Dooku vs Vader is a debate is because you have a fight that ignores all the PIS and context in ROTS. Dooku doesn't hold back or intentionally prolong the fight. He doesn't go in with a losing mindset. There is no Palpatine. And there is no Obi Wan.

Vader is enraged, yes, but he isn't "Obi Wan" enraged. Losing to Obi who's power "returned" borders an antifeat.

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#13 CryoLancer47  Online

@lightordark:

The trouble is that everyone with a saber that Vaderbeatafter his fight with Dooku, which is a highly debatable fight given the sources, wasn't nearly on Dooku's level.

He OWK Vader in the first phase of their fight stated that pre-hole Kenobi's "strength has returned." Which implies he was near or on Mustafar Kenobi level in Sabers. Since that was the last guy Vader fought before getting un-limbed and barbecued. Which further backs it up.

And Mustafar Kenobi is near Mustafar Anakin. Who is > Base RoTS Anakin, minus mentality and Force power.

And Mustafar Vader was dominating Mustafar Kenobi and had the upper-hand against him. Despite being horribly nerfed at the time:

He then goes on to struggle against Mustafar Vader in CQC on multiple occasions.

Mustafar Vader breaks Kenobi's guard and kicks him:

No Caption Provided

Mustafar Vader drives Kenobi back, and overpowers him again:

No Caption Provided

Vader overpowers and chokes Kenobi:

No Caption Provided

Kenobi only manages to escape with a kick when Vader wasn't ready, only for Vader to recover quickly and kick Obi-Wan before the latter can swing at him:

No Caption Provided

Both are equally matched in the Force, and are blown back from the clash. But Vader recovers immediately, while Kenobi is clearly affected by what happened:

No Caption Provided

This is how much a kick from Kenobi affects the hindered Vader:

No Caption Provided

And this is how a kick from Vader affects Kenobi:

No Caption Provided

Vader overpowers Kenobi in a blade-lock, TWICE:

No Caption Provided

And I'm sure there's a few more if we go further.

And Mustafar Kenobi is still >> Base RoTS Kenobi:

As well as him possibly being at his previous Prime level (Before the events of OWK, of course.) And reaching insane heights after the Invisible Hand fight. Specifically Utapau and Mustafar:

Moreover, at this point in time Kenobi hadn't learned to reach the heights he had by Utapau, let alone Mustafar (easily his most powerful self):

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?""I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really—""Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."

So now, facing the tornado of annihilating energy that is Grievous's attack, Obi-Wan simply is who he is.

The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combat algorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, each of the twelve strikes per second came from a dif-ferent angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life. Not one touched him.

After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks—sixteen per second, eighteen—until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. —slice— The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it

This is elaborated on in the Mustafar duel, where Kenobi not only becomes "who he is" but also lets go of all attachments and focuses on one thing; stopping Anakin:

With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but un-stoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.

His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.

Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders.

Anakin followed, constantly attacking; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the black-sand shoreline of a lake of fire.

Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.

It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.

Fire rained around them.

Obi-Wan backed to the end of the balcony; behind him was only a power conduit no thicker than his arm, connecting it to the main collection plant of the old lava mine, over a riverbed that flowed with white-hot molten stone. Obi-Wan stepped backward onto the conduit without hesitation, his balance flawless as he parried chop after chop.

Anakin came on.

Out on the tightrope of power conduit, their blades blurred even faster than before. They chopped and slashed and parried and blocked. Lava bombs thundered to the ground below, shedding drops of burning stone that scorched their robes. Smoke shrouded the planet's star, and now the only light came from the hell-glow of the lava below them and from their blades themselves. Flares of energy crackled and spat.

This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals.

It was Anakin against Obi-Wan.

Personally.

Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other.

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all...Obi-Wan still loved him.

Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.

Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...

He let it go.

So Vader's Saber scaling coupled with his strength, speed, durability, and stamina, will allow him to take it over Dooku and press him easier than Base Anakin did. And his first-hand knowledge of how Dooku fights, and usual rage boosts don't hurt his chances, either.

I am not arguing that Dooku's lightning alone would beat Vader, but him using it during saber combat changes the fight.

Perhaps in extended lightning strikes will. But he'll need to do it for an extended period of time to have anywhere near the same effect as RoTJ Palpatine. And Vader won't sit by, tank, and let him do it.

Moving at preternatural speed isn't a big feat. It just means what is above normal. All Jedi and Sith should have this ability via the Force.

No Caption Provided

The

Are we seriously comparing Jinn & TPM Kenobi's travel speed to Vader's combat speed? You do know the difference between the two, correct?

Also, nothing either of the two above did comes close to these feats performed by a casual Vader:

Speed/Mobility

19 BBY Vader seemingly appears out of nowhere (credit to Dawn_Of_Ages):

No Caption Provided

Vader forms 6 afterimages out of his blade:

No Caption Provided

Vader creates a barrier around his body with his lightsaber, while simultaneously deflecting omnidirectional laser fire:

No Caption Provided

Vader moves with preternatural speed and swings his lightsaber as a blur:

Vader was forty meters from her. He stood up straight, towering over the crew near him. He was looking right at her, his lightsaber held at his side, and she could feel the weight of his regard pressing against her like a punch. He exploded into motion, moving toward her at preternatural speed, his strides devouring the deck space between them. Crew scrambled out of the way at his approach, his dark form knifing through them.

She raised her blasters and took aim, shooting as fast as she could pull the triggers, scribing the air between them with lines of red energy. Vader didn't slow his sprint and his lightsaber was a blur as he came on, deflecting her shots in all directions. A few came back at her. One hit the pallet and sent tools skittering along the deck. Another scorched the bulkhead beside her, but still she fired.

The crew in the corridor panicked, scrambling in all directions. An officer got in Vader's way, slowing his approach for a moment, and Vader tossed him aside with his free hand as if the man weighed no more than a child.

Isval! Eshgo said from behind her.

Vader was twenty meters and closing.

She was shouting, firing, but her shots could not get past the line of his lightsaber. She didn't understand how it was possible, until her own words came back to her: Vader was not a man.

-- Lords Of The Sith

So them traveling as a blur, while impressive, is the equivalent of using travel speed and ignoring how those two in particular are pretty low down the food chain. Especially Base TPM Kenobi

The reason why Dooku vs Vader is a debate is because you have a fight that ignores all the PIS and context in ROTS.

No. It's because Vader has feats that allow him to keep up with and press Dooku. Strength far above base Anakin. And and durability to tank what Dooku dishes out and keep pressing him.

It's not just PIS that makes this debatable.

Dooku doesn't hold back or intentionally prolong the fight. He doesn't go in with a losing mindset.

1. Dooku didn't hold back by much. He still fodderized Kenobi and did well against Anakin.

2. Anakin pressed him with his skill and strength. Not Dooku allowing him to do that.

3. He didn't go in with a losing mindset. He wasn't fighting at a fraction of his power or whatever. He was legit pressed and challenged by base Anakin. Which is consistent with all their previous clashes in Canon.

There is no Palpatine. And there is no Obi Wan.

1. He doesn't need Palpatine. His strength, speed, durability, and stamina feats and scaling do him well and put him comfortably above base Anakin & Zonakin.

2. Base RoTS Kenobi is fodder and adds nothing. Good riddance.

Vader is enraged, yes, but he isn't "Obi Wan" enraged. Losing to Obi who's power "returned" borders an antifeat.

He lost to post-hole/Twin-amp Kenobi. Who was stated in the audio-tapes to have made Vader straight-up helpless against his assault on him. And that Kenobi scales from Vader's comic feats that were accomplished in all the years pre-OWK.

Vader handily stomped and casually overpowered pre-hole Kenobi in Force by sending the pillar he was bringing down on him away, mocked him. And then broke his guard in Sabers like Mustafar Vader did, and punched him before he could react.

So, no. It's not an Anti-Feat. Vader lost because post-hole Kenobi was amped. This has been discussed and explained in many threads at this point.

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@cryolancer47: “Twin-amp Kenobi” - please link this discussion because it sounds like Vader apologetics.

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@cryolancer47: If Mustafar Vader is horribly nerfed in your own words, how can you reliably say that he is superior to Base ROTS Anakin? Not disagreeing, just interested in seeing your reasoning.

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#17 CryoLancer47  Online

@cryolancer47: “Twin-amp Kenobi” - please link this discussion because it sounds like Vader apologetics.

It's not Vader apologists trying to excuse his loss. Context was clear in the fight when you compare pre-hole Kenobi to post-hole Kenobi:

Loading Video...

Kenobi was clearly amped with the flashback of the twins, after getting humiliated and stomped and thrown into the hole. He was overpowered in Force and Sabers in round 1. Something he no longer suffered when you notice how he ragdolls OWK Vader, and absolutely bodies him.

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#18 CryoLancer47  Online
@lord_god said:

@cryolancer47: If Mustafar Vader is horribly nerfed in your own words, how can you reliably say that he is superior to Base ROTS Anakin? Not disagreeing, just interested in seeing your reasoning.

It's not just according to me. Vader was nerfed horribly due to the return of the dragon when he had time to reflect on his actions in Mustafar:

Anakin was also hindered by the return of the dragon and having just choked his wife and suffered an emotional betrayal, hindering him:

He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear.

All things die.

Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel.

Now its poison chilled him to the bone.

Even stars burn out.

He shook himself again and strode toward the holocomm.

He would talk to his Master.

Palpatine had always helped him keep the dragon down.

And then the appearance of Padme & Kenobi made it worst.

Which resulted in him getting kicked down below his Knightfall level and into Mustafar Vader.

Now, why he scales above base Anakin is via Mustafar Kenobi. Who managed to keep up with Grievous. Which puts his Saber skills high. And Kenobi reaching a higher level than Utapau Kenobi who fought and kept up with Grievous:

Moreover, at this point in time Kenobi hadn't learned to reach the heights he had by Utapau, let alone Mustafar (easily his most powerful self):

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?""I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really—""Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."

So now, facing the tornado of annihilating energy that is Grievous's attack, Obi-Wan simply is who he is.

The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combat algorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, each of the twelve strikes per second came from a dif-ferent angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life. Not one touched him.

After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks—sixteen per second, eighteen—until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. —slice— The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it

This is elaborated on in the Mustafar duel, where Kenobi not only becomes "who he is" but also lets go of all attachments and focuses on one thing; stopping Anakin:

With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but un-stoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.

His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.

Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders.

Anakin followed, constantly attacking; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the black-sand shoreline of a lake of fire.

Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.

It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.

Fire rained around them.

Obi-Wan backed to the end of the balcony; behind him was only a power conduit no thicker than his arm, connecting it to the main collection plant of the old lava mine, over a riverbed that flowed with white-hot molten stone. Obi-Wan stepped backward onto the conduit without hesitation, his balance flawless as he parried chop after chop.

Anakin came on.

Out on the tightrope of power conduit, their blades blurred even faster than before. They chopped and slashed and parried and blocked. Lava bombs thundered to the ground below, shedding drops of burning stone that scorched their robes. Smoke shrouded the planet's star, and now the only light came from the hell-glow of the lava below them and from their blades themselves. Flares of energy crackled and spat.

This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals.

It was Anakin against Obi-Wan.

Personally.

Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other.

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all...Obi-Wan still loved him.

Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.

Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...

He let it go.

And Kenobi had an advantage many people lacked. Which is knowing Anakin's form better than anyone:

On top of that, the two knew each other's forms intimately:

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

Which helped him greatly against Mustafar Vader and OWK Vader.

So OWK Vader has a case backing him being > Base Anakin. Even if by a bit. And his increased strength, speed, durability and stamina as Vader amplify him well. Making him better than Base Anakin in stats. And his comic feats and scaling don't hurt that scaling either.

I hope this helps.

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@cryolancer47: What I find ridiculous is that the scaling argument makes the Jedi at the height of their power less than the Sith at the height of theirs, except when you factor in the Old Republic. The Sith and Jedi were exponentially more powerful then.

If Disney has done anything right, it’s make the power difference between everyone less drastic.

Vader isn’t unstoppable, and he isn’t above Yoda or Sidious. He is an apprentice. Anakin/Vader is always the apprentice, never the master. Though he claims to be the master in ANH. Obi proves him wrong yet again.

The only two high tier Jedi he beats are ANH Obi, who gives himself up, and ESB Luke, who is untrained.

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#20  Edited By alextheboss

Vader wins in a tough fight.

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On the one hand, Darth Vader is more powerful and experienced than he was during his time as Anakin Skywalker where he defeated Count Dooku on the Invisible Hand; not only is Vader more powerful in the Force, but his already incredible physical strength, that historically has given Tyranus a lot of trouble, has been further augmented by his suit.

However, Vader is still at this point reckless and arrogant; he's so convinced of his infinite power and that victory is inevitable that he neglects caution entirely. For someone like Tyranus, this is ideal - he'll be able to exploit any openings Vader creates just as well as Kenobi, but without any of the mercy displayed by the Jedi Master. I don't think Dooku's lightning is as big of a factor as some might, given Vader has tanked RoTS Sidious's lightning, but it doesn't hurt for Dooku to have it either.

Overall, this can go either way. Vader might overwhelm Dooku with his aggression and strength, hammering away at the old man's limited stamina until he can't hold his lightsaber anymore - it wouldn't be the first time that Skywalker has exhausted Dooku. The more likely scenario for me though, is Tyranus finding an opportunity to skewer Vader through the control panel before the younger Sith can put him down.

Darth Tyranus takes a small majority here, 6/10. Vader doesn't quite have the patience or composure to defeat Dooku for a majority at this point, despite being overall the more lethal combatant. Rebels Vader onwards is a different story, however.

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Lol, imagine trying to prove that Anakin in RoTS is superior to Obi Wan, even though they were literally portrayed in the movie multiple times to be dead equal, and it was after Anakin received a power up by the dark side, which was stated in THE MOVIE, meaning Anakin who fought Obi Wan > Anakin who fought Dooku. And there's no indication in the movie, not in the slightest, that Obi Wan had any increase in strength by the time he fought Anakin. That's not even how Jedi powers work, at least not in Lucas's canon, they become stronger gradually with time, they can receive short time bursts in power when giving in for the dark side, which is clearly not the case with Obi Wan. So it would be more than reasonable to claim that RoTS Obi-Wan > AoTC Obi-Wan, but that the end of the movie Obi massively >> the start of the movie Obi? Not a chance. Secondary sources can state whatever they want, it doesn't matter as long as it doesn't line up with what was shown in the movies. If Lucas intended for Obi Wan to become stronger for the fight with Anakin, he would've shown it. Instead, Obi Wan just outwitted and outskilled Anakin, that's all. Besides, becoming who he is isn't even an amp lol, his mindset doesn't make him stronger or a better fighter, he's just calm and focused, as any Jedi should be.

On topic, Dooku wins. The fact that this version of Vader is from a crappy Disney show by default means that he's inferior in lightsaber combat to any character from prequels, because Disney sucks at lightsaber combat. But jokes aside, I'm not even sure that Vader was supposed to be stronger than Dooku in the original Lucas's vision. Sure, when he was Anakin, he had the best potential out of all Jedi, and would've surpassed not only Dooku, but Yoda and Sidious themselves. But after he got burned to a crisp, he never reached that potential and never met Sidious's expectations, just like Yoda told him would be. Dooku, as he was shown in the movies, always made the impression of a character in the same ballpark as the top tiers, Yoda and Sidious, just one step below, and a step above the middle tiers like Obi Wan. The only reason he lost to Anakin was because of holding back and there's no denying it, you can find all the proof in the movie. Dooku absolutely fodderized Obi-Wan, the same Obi-Wan who was equal with the more powerful Anakin, and it was not because Dooku's style just countered his style or other bs that I often hear, he was just plain stronger than Obi Wan, they barely even clashed blades, Dooku just manhandled him with the Force and Obi couldn't do jack shit about it. If he could do it to Obi-Wan then it is absolutely undeniable he could do this to Anakin, just chose not to. He also never attacked him, was always defending and constantly talking to him to use his anger. Definitely not something he would've done if he wanted Anakin dead then and there. Yes, Anakin was supposed to become much stronger than Dooku, but only in the future, he wasn't at that level at the time, and the fight with Obi-Wan proves it. Then we have OWK Vader, who lost to the version of Obi-Wan who didn't train in lightsaber combat and Force for ten years, and then just practised for a few days to get back in shape. By simple logic we can conclude that this Obi-Wan just cannot be on the same level as the one who fought Dooku. Of course Disney SW are devoid of logic, so in-universe he's maybe supposed to be just as strong, if not stronger than his prime, because he thought of little Leia and it gave him power and blah, blah, blah. But the fact is, scalling still works in Dooku's favour, he still absolutely fodderized prime Obi-Wan, while Vader struggled with him even before his zenkai boost, even though he shouldn't have even been amped by thinking of a little girl in the first place, because that's not how it works and certainly not how Obi-Wan fights. But hey, that's Disney, the ones who killed the Star Wars and continue to kick its corpse, so what else to expect from them. Still, a good character from prequels shits on a cosplayer from the show. The only people in all six original movies undeniably above him are Sidious, Yoda, maybe Windu and prime Anakin, whom we never saw.

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SonOfDarkness

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#23  Edited By SonOfDarkness

Imagine thinking that Dooku could beat a more powerful version of someone who already stomped him.

Vader wins. Again.

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LightorDark

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#24  Edited By LightorDark

@sonofdarkness said:Imagine thinking that Dooku could beat a more powerful version of someone who already stomped him.

Vader wins. Again.

The context of the duel in ROTS is why Dooku lost. The duo was too much for him. They exhausted him by changing their forms. The first scan shows his age was a factor and he wasn't trying to kill Obi Wan yet, and the second shows how he held off Obi Wan while throwing chairs and a table at Anakin. He overpowered them individually at different times.

The problem is the same as when he fought Yoda. Dooku's feeling of being more powerful than any Jedi caused an overconfidence. Not to mention that Kenobi and Anakin both agree that they need to fight him together.

A pure 1v1 in the same location between Dooku and Anakin doesn't play out the same way.

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RandAlThor2219

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#25  Edited By RandAlThor2219
@sonofdarkness said:

Imagine thinking that Dooku could beat a more powerful version of someone who already stomped him.

Vader wins. Again.

Anakin never stomped him. He won after a prolonged fight where Dooku was actively trying not to kill him and encouraged him to use his hate to become more powerful. He never even used a force lightning against him. In that same fight Dooku also stomped someone who was equal to a dark side amped Anakin.

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You can also see Dooku casually kicking Anakin away without even looking at him while he's dealing with Obi-Wan. Sorry, but that's not how a stomp looks (in Anakin's case). Dooku absolutely, undoubtedly, undeniably could've done to Anakin what he did to Obi-Wan, since there wasn't any area where Anakin was superior to Obi, and he didn't only because he was told not to by Sidious and also because he wanted to make Anakin his apprentice as well. Meanwhile, in OWK show Vader is beaten by Obi-Wan, who was out of practice for 10 years, and only had a few days to regain his strength and skill. Even if we assume that he indeed returned to his peak after a few days of practice, which is some Rey level shit, Vader still struggled with him much more than Dooku ever did even before his so called "twin amp" or whatever that was

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JediSympathiz3r

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It’d be like the Vader vs pre-hole Kenobi fight. Dooku will have the upper hand initially because he’s the superior duelist but once Vader gets the opportunity to spam tk, Dooku will lose.

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nassergrant19

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Vader ragdolls…

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Living162637

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@lightordark:

The Junior Novel confirms Dooku with the dark side would keep him from running out of stamina. The second part is kinda just headcanon. Various sources confirm Anakin was MUCH stronger than Dooku and easily bested him. This is the entire narrative, Sidious getting a much more powerful apprentice. Even Dark Disciple Anakin could push Dooku and go relative.

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incursion2

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Vader

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LightorDark

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@living162637: The ROTS novel says otherwise. Dooku acknowledges his age (83), and it discusses the effort required in detail.

I’m not going to argue that Dooku would overpower Vader, but he is powerful enough and skilled enough to take out Vader, though not every time.

Dooku’s Makashi form wasn’t able to go head to head with Anakin’s powerful strikes, but he knew how to redirect the heavy strikes. I think that is in the AOTC novel when he fought Anakin the first time.

Does Dooku take 10/10 in this fight, no, but I don’t see him losing 10/10 either.

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SamJackson

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Vader wins. Prime Obi wins too.

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MordhauExtreme1

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Vader wins. Anakin was amped by the dark side and out did the count, but Darth Vader displayed far superior force abilities and fighting skill as well and should out do anything the Count has to offer at this time

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Living162637

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@lightordark:

The ROTS adult novel is arguably not canon, and if it is, it’s the lowest form of canon like MM has said. The Junior Novels, tailor made for Disney canon confirm the dark side would keep Dooku going. Vader surpassed Obi-Wan in dueling, something Anakin never did, despite Sidious proclaiming his skills being above any Sith, so Vader is more skilled by ANH and continues to become more skilled. Zonakin is described many times to be far more powerful than Dooku and is confirmed to best him easily, Vader is stronger then that. Dooku has basically no way to win

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WordsBeyondFic0

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This should be an easy win for Vader. Not only is he in his prime but he wouldn't the conflicted mess we always see when he fights someone from his treasured passed. Not only is he the best duelist in the galaxy at the time but the only one who can compare to him is palpatine. Dooku has clearly slowed down and has struggled with Anakin. And we can all agree OWK Vader > Anakin (ROTS).