Darth Vader (Canon) Vs Assault Mode Meliodas

  • 50 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for kataraaaa
kataraaaa

6319

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#1  Edited By kataraaaa

Darth Vader

No Caption Provided

Meliodas

  • Post-Purgatory Assault Mode Meliodas
  • Canon Vader as of ROTJ
  • Morals off
  • Win by death only
  • Fight takes place in a European wasteland
Avatar image for orientalwarrior
OrientalWarrior

1411

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Meliodas

Avatar image for ben2004
Ben2004

2146

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Meliodas is continental right? Unless you are using Eredin Vader, Meli boy wins.

Avatar image for nassergrant19
nassergrant19

29816

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

#5  Edited By nassergrant19

Vader is a lot faster and has comparable AP with his TK.

Vader ftw

Avatar image for mangacomics69
MangaComics69

6016

Forum Posts

511

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Vader is a lot faster and has comparable AP with his TK.

Vader ftw

Avatar image for maulsmacker
MaulSmacker

7510

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

@ben2004 said:

Meliodas is continental right? Unless you are using Eredin Vader, Meli boy wins.

Its not all about fire power tbf, Vader has counter meassures like TP, internal Telekenesis and just a general speed advantage now that there is proof the Revenge of the Sith Novel is canonical.

Avatar image for ajak_xv
Ajak_XV

2165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Meliodas actually stomps what is it his matchup

Avatar image for dramus17
Dramus17

1824

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Meliodas blitzes and 1 shots.

Avatar image for ieatnettles
Ieatnettles

4438

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#10 Ieatnettles  Online

Vader's cooler. Meliodas looks like some dumb kid fell down a chimney and got soot all over his face.

Vader wins because I have no clue who meliodas is

Avatar image for ieatnettles
Ieatnettles

4438

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11 Ieatnettles  Online

@maulsmacker: Is it? I thought there was a few differences to the movie

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@ben2004 said:

Meliodas is continental right? Unless you are using Eredin Vader, Meli boy wins.

I mean I do not generally put canon Vader above that. Granted, I do have a high opinion, but continental Mel is also a high opinion of Mel.

OT: Going with Vader, he is faster, he can match his power and he has better hax

Avatar image for jirou
Jirou

1352

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Vader gets stomped.

Avatar image for maulsmacker
MaulSmacker

7510

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

@maulsmacker: Is it? I thought there was a few differences to the movie

there are but it released before the film did so its understandable.

Avatar image for heiqn
heiqn

13370

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 3

Meliodas is overrated piece of trash

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16  Edited By Eredin12
@jirou said:

Vader gets stomped.

Based on? So far, I did not see you show any actual knowledge about him other than basically saying he loses in every thread( you unironically think DCEU Supes can beat him)

Avatar image for dertilt
DerTilt

2294

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Im pretty sure Canon Vader barely caps at Townlevel.

EU Vader ofc caps at Planetlevel and would ragdoll NNT(- Chaos).

Avatar image for supreme101
Supreme101

7589

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

#18  Edited By Supreme101

Vader

Avatar image for jirou
Jirou

1352

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@dertilt said:

Im pretty sure Canon Vader barely caps at Townlevel.

EU Vader ofc caps at Planetlevel and would ragdoll NNT(- Chaos).

No.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#20  Edited By Eredin12
@dertilt said:

Im pretty sure Canon Vader barely caps at Townlevel.

EU Vader ofc caps at Planetlevel and would ragdoll NNT(- Chaos).

Actually, he has much better feats than that in canon. He tore through the side of Super Star Destroyers, which can tank shots from other capital ships which have country-busting feats, he is also confirmed to be more powerful than said Super Star Destroyer. Further more, he overpowered 7,5 km Kaiju who can move its mass at sub-relativistic speeds. Even his lower stuff, like vaporizing miles of forest casually would be town/city level and that is not even his high end. Even in one of his most recent comics,, he no-sold explosion made by hundreds of meters long ship slamming into the planet at MHS+ speeds, which would be island level KE wise.

Avatar image for dertilt
DerTilt

2294

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@eredin12 said:
@dertilt said:

Im pretty sure Canon Vader barely caps at Townlevel.

EU Vader ofc caps at Planetlevel and would ragdoll NNT(- Chaos).

Actually, he has much better feats than that in canon. He tore through the side of Super Star Destroyers, which can tank shots from other capital ships which have country-busting feats, he is also confirmed to be more powerful than said Super Star Destroyer. Further more, he overpowered 7,5 km Kaiju who can move its mass at sub-relativistic speeds. Even his lower stuff, like vaporizing miles of forest casually would be town/city level and that is not even his high end. Even in one of his most recent comics,, he no-sold explosion made by hundreds of meters long ship slamming into the planet at MHS+ speeds, which would be island level KE wise.

When was this?Nothing of that happened in the Movie/s

Avatar image for mahfire
Mahfire

2019

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Morals off

Mel rips out his soul

Otherwise I'm leaning on Comics Vader mostly due to how little I know of him firsthand and everyone's confidence for him here.

Avatar image for xernive
Xernive

679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Mel stomps, CV's hate for SDS is hilarious πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

Avatar image for jirou
Jirou

1352

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mahfire said:

Morals off

Mel rips out his soul

Otherwise I'm leaning on Comics Vader mostly due to how little I know of him firsthand and everyone's confidence for him here.

Never blindly trust peoples opinion on the vine. Tons of bias and over inflation of feats.

Avatar image for number3561
Number3561

456

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

What is this lol. BoS Meliodas one-shots him.

All it took was a quick glance through the respect threads. You have Vader with wall-level physicals and large building level TK on average against a character who at BoS had casually large hill/town level physicals. I doubt Vader can even hurt him, lightsaber included.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#26  Edited By Eredin12
@dertilt said:
@eredin12 said:
@dertilt said:

Im pretty sure Canon Vader barely caps at Townlevel.

EU Vader ofc caps at Planetlevel and would ragdoll NNT(- Chaos).

Actually, he has much better feats than that in canon. He tore through the side of Super Star Destroyers, which can tank shots from other capital ships which have country-busting feats, he is also confirmed to be more powerful than said Super Star Destroyer. Further more, he overpowered 7,5 km Kaiju who can move its mass at sub-relativistic speeds. Even his lower stuff, like vaporizing miles of forest casually would be town/city level and that is not even his high end. Even in one of his most recent comics,, he no-sold explosion made by hundreds of meters long ship slamming into the planet at MHS+ speeds, which would be island level KE wise.

When was this?Nothing of that happened in the Movie/s

In comics, 90% of Vaders feats come from comics, not movies

@number3561 said:

What is this lol. BoS Meliodas one-shots him.

All it took was a quick glance through the respect threads. You have Vader with wall-level physicals and large building level TK on average against a character who at BoS had casually large hill/town level physicals. I doubt Vader can even hurt him, lightsaber included.

You should not judge based on quick glances on years-old respect threads. Vader does not have wall-level physicals or large building-level TK, even him casually vaporizing miles of forest is already town-level or above, and he has much better feats than this

No Caption Provided

He literally tore through the side of Super Star Destroyer, which can tank country-level blasts

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for number3561
Number3561

456

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#27  Edited By Number3561

@eredin12: From his respect thread, Vader failed to stop a small tsunami crashing over a city block-sized area, despite having help from multiple other force users, and was one-shotted.

In your first scan he didn't vaporize anything. He uprooted a decent section of a forest. It's impressive, and probably his best feat (recent I'm guessing), but an omnidirectional blast that only destroys regular trees is below even BoS Meliodas level. The star destroyer feat doesn't look impressive in the slightest without more context.

Avatar image for greythejiren
GreyTheJiren

3831

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

BoS Mel is enough.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#29  Edited By Eredin12

@number3561:

@eredin12: From his respect thread, Vader failed to stop a small tsunami crashing over a city block-sized area, despite having help from multiple other force users, and was one-shotted.

Again, this is why you should not base your knowledge only on Reddit RT, as you often miss all the context. First of all, that was Vader at his weakest, right after ROTS, when he was little more than a cripple when he was confirmed to be massively weakened due to his injuries, while this thread specifically notes that it uses prime ROTJ Vader who is infinitely stronger. Furthermore, that was not a small flood, it was one that flooded the entire city

No Caption Provided

That is also why you have some Jedi master in canon holding city busting wave for an hour:

Same Jedi which was sure as hell not above prime Vader, who is much more powerful than even Yoda, but Vader, right after ROTS, when that comic happened was much weaker. Of course, you will not find that on Reddit RT, but oh well

In your first scan he didn't vaporize anything. He uprooted a decent section of a forest. It's impressive, and probably his best feat (recent I'm guessing),

First of all, that is not close to being his best feat even in that same run. Much better is ripping the side of Super Star Destroyer or slamming down and overpowering Summa, which is a 7,5 km monster that can move its mass at near relativistic speed, briefly resist black holes and punch through capital shops. Secondly, he did vaporize it, look at the scans after his wave, he did not merely uproot the forest if he did that, then you would be able to see fallen trees or pieces of them on the ground where the forest was located before, yet instead of that, in a place where the forest was( miles radius) nothing was left but empty rocky ground, everything else was erased. Later chapter show the same thing, it is all empty rock where the forest once was, no matter in which direction you look. Everything, in entire field on vision, is, after his wave, just empty rock:

No Caption Provided

With no traces of the large forest that was there before his wave. That is because he vaporized it

but an omnidirectional blast that only destroys regular trees is below even BoS Meliodas level. The star destroyer feat doesn't look impressive in the slightest without more context.

It is not about "destroying regular trees", that is like saying Mel" destroyed regular rock" in the feat you brought, it is about the amount of them and the way he did it. Vader vaporized miles of forest, while even vaporizing normal humans takes around 1 ton of TNT, what Vader did, vaporizing dozens of thousands of tons would be city level feat for him, as good or better than splitting hill. And yea I agree that context is important for Star Destroyer feat, but context is that those ships are durable enough to tank fire from ships with feats such as this:

No Caption Provided

There is a dozen more such feats here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/comments/nusk7x/firepower_for_star_wars_canon_star_destroyers/

The point is capital ships have consistently shown country level firepower and the ability to tank that same firepower hitting them, while Vader not only casually tore through them but is also confirmed as more powerful than even the largest capital ship( Super Star Destroyer) that he ripped through

Avatar image for number3561
Number3561

456

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#30  Edited By Number3561

@eredin12:

Again, this is why you should not base your knowledge on RT, you end up looking ridiculous. First of all , that was Vader at his weakest, right after ROTS, when he was little more than a cripple, while this thread uses prime ROTJ Vader who is infinitely stronger. Second that was not a small flood, it was one that flooded the entire city

The respect thread has done a better job demonstrating Vader's consistent power level than you have so far. You even link it yourself.

Is there any evidence that Vader was weakened here, or that he is now infinitely stronger? That "city" didn't look much bigger than a city block or two. Plus the backup Vader had and the fact that he failed and was one-shotted.

Second yes he did vaporize it, look at the scan, he did not merely uproot forest if he did that, then you would be able to see trees or chunks of them on the ground where the forest was, yet instead of that, in place where the forest was( miles radius) nothing was left but empty rocky ground, everything else was erased

We literally see large tree trunks flying past during this supposed vaporization and you can see them piled up beyond the dirt patch in multiple scans. You can't miss it.

It is not about "destroying regular trees" , that is like saying Mel" destroyed regular rock" in the feat you brought, it is about the amount of them and the way he did it. Vader vaporized miles of forest, while even vaporizing normal humans is building level, what Vader did

Casually shattering large hill-sized rock structures is substantially more impressive than uprooting a section of forest. Especially when most of Vader's feats are far below this.

Point is capital ships have consistently shown country level fire power and the ability to tank that same firepower hitting them, while Vader not only casually tore through them but is also confirmed as more powerful than even largest capital ship

If you can show Vader blocking, overpowering, or even being compared to an explosion of that level feel free to post it. But tearing up a small building sized portion of a starship with the Force is not it.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#31  Edited By Eredin12

@number3561:

The respect thread has done a better job demonstrating Vader's consistent power level than you have so far. You even link it yourself.

Is there any evidence that Vader was weakened here, or that he is now infinitely stronger? That "city" didn't look much bigger than a city block or two. Plus the backup Vader had and the fact that he failed and was one-shotted.

I linked it by mistake, I wanted to link this lol:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/comments/nusk7x/firepower_for_star_wars_canon_star_destroyers/

The reason I wanted to link that is to show you the consistent firepower of capital ships. Furthermore, how can you even talk about" consistent power level" when you did not even know that ROTS Vader is much weaker than ROTJ Vader used here? Vader is specifically noted to be weaker than Anakin right after ROTS, while even as far as Lords of Sith, which takes place 5 years after ROTS, he is noted to have suppressed Anakin power-wise

No Caption Provided

and he has numerous confirmations of growing up stronger later, here is one from the 2020 run itself noting him as more powerful than ever:

No Caption Provided

For example, you brought the question of durability, in one of his most recent comics, he literally no sold the capital ship he was on(huge transport):

No Caption Provided

Being slammed into the planet from space in the span of a few seconds, the time it takes to say one or two short sentences( literally time it took to say" if the endless mercy is truly vessel of your deliverance" which takes bit less than 2 seconds to say) So it would be moving at MHS+, and Vader no sells that impact/explosion it makes(only damage is done to his cape) :

No Caption Provided

When you put that numbers into KE equation, you easily get island-level power that he utterly no sold:

And yet your entire line of reasoning is about low showing from Vader at his weakest, you somehow think that single low showing, again at his weakest, is more consistent than numerous other feats both for him and force users weaker than him( recall Jedi holding city busting wave for an hour that I gave?) , that are much better than that. And no, this was an actual city, we see the water was so large that you could not see the end of it over the horizon, and those force users helping Vader were fodder inquisitors before they were even trained much. Vader has much better feats than this later, as he grew stronger, and indeed, we saw even weaker force users than prime Vader held such flood

We literally see large tree trunks flying past during this supposed vaporization and you can see them piled up beyond the dirt patch in multiple scans. You can't miss it.

We do not see trees of the forest after his wave was over. I posted a scan above, here is another one. Mark me where you see trees here. You do not actually see them, because they are not there.We just see the rock. Now yes we did see few trees being uprooted, but that was before they were vaporized by wave, that was before, the wave was over, while I was talking after this wave was over

No Caption Provided

Casually shattering large hill-sized rock structures is substantially more impressive than uprooting a section of forest. Especially when most of Vader's feats are far below this.

Again, he did not just uproot it, he vaporized it, all of it. Whcih is more impressive, scientifically speaking than splitting Hill. Vader himself has feats far better than this, as do other force users he scales above, but again that is an issue where your entire knowledge comes from years-old RT

If you can show Vader blocking, overpowering, or even being compared to an explosion of that level feel free to post it. But tearing up a small building sized portion of a starship with the Force is not it.

He was literally compared to the firepower of that ship and noted as more powerful than it:

No Caption Provided

And tearing up a building-sized portion of SSD is very much it when you factor how durable those ships are, which is my point. They are able to tank shots from capital feats with those feats without suffering any damage and a building-sized crater is just what we saw, we did not see entire destruction as picture cuts, and later chapter revealed he busted side of SSD:

No Caption Provided
Avatar image for number3561
Number3561

456

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#32  Edited By Number3561

@eredin12:

To show you the consistent firepower of capital ships. Furthermore, how can you even talk about" consistent power level" when you did not even know that ROTS Vader is much weaker than ROTJ Vader used here? Yes, Vader is specifically noted to be weaker than Anakin right after ROTS, while even as far as Lords of Sith, which takes place 5 years after ROTS, he is noted to have suppressed Anakin power-wise

In the actual animated and live action media, these ships seem to have much worse showings. And narrative-wise, the notion that they can casually surface-wipe is ridiculous in the main media.

Your evidence for Vader being weakened is literally an image of him being lifted off the operating table lmao. That is not the state he was in when the tsunami feat occurred. What's more, that image suggests that Vader's potential has been permanently nerfed due to his injuries, not that he's only temporarily weakened.

and he has numerous confirmations of growing up stronger later, here is one from 2020 run itself noting him more powerful than ever:

This doesn't prove that he became "infinitely" stronger or was weakened during the tsunami feat.

Being slammed into the planet from space in the span of a few seconds, the time it takes to say one or two short sentences( literally time it took to say" if the endless mercy is truly vessel of your deliverance" which takes bit less than 2 seconds to say) So it would be moving at MHS+, and Vader no sells that impact/explosion it makes(only damage is done to his cape) :

We're literally given no timeframe. You're just assuming it all happened in a few seconds because of text box dialogue that also mentions no time. This feat is also vague as fuck. Nothing to compare the explosion to besides the building-sized ship, or whether Vader used the Force to defend himself.

When you put that numbers into KE equation, you easily get island-level power that he utterly no sold:

KE calcs like this are often pure wank using fan-made numbers to inflate a feat far beyond what's actually shown or intended. In this case, turning a large building level TK feat into island level. If you showed this scan to anyone and asked them to evaluate it, they'd laugh if you told them it shows Vader outputting Hawaii-busting energy.

you somehow think that single low showing, again at his weakest, is more consistent than countless other feats both for him and force users weaker than him, that are much better than that.

In the movies and cartoons his feats are actually even worse than what I'm arguing for. What you're doing is trying to twist single instances from comics, when his power is much lower on average across most of SW media as indicated by every respect thread.

And no, this was an actual city, we see the water was so large that you could not see the end of it over the horizon, and those force users helping Vader were fodder inquisitors before they were even trained much. Vader has much better feats than this later, as he grew stronger, and indeed, we saw even weaker force users than prime Vader hold such flood

You haven't proven he was weakened. And again, we see the size of this city. It's absolutely tiny.

First of all, no, we do not see trees of the forest after his wave was over. I posted a scan above, here is another one. Mark me where you see trees here. You do not see them, because they are not there. We just see the rock. Yes we did see few trees being uprooted, but that was before they were vaporized by wave, that was before, wave was over

No evidence that trees were vaporized, whereas there is on-panel evidence of them being uprooted and sent flying away. Not to mention we literally see the uprooted trees after the "vaporization" lol.

No Caption Provided

Vader himself has feats far better than this

If he did, you wouldn't be posting him moving small starships or tearing up tiny portions of ships. You'd just show me him lifting an island or shattering a country with the Force.

He was literally compared to the firepower of that ship

No he wasn't. He's called a more powerful "weapon" for the Empire. That doesn't mean he can output more energy, just that he's a more useful/powerful tool for the Empire overall due to his various capabilities.

They are able to tank shots from capital feats with those feats without suffering any damage and a building-sized crater is just what we saw, we did not see entire destruction as picture cuts, and later chapter revealed he busted side of SSD:

We saw what amount he busted. If he busted more, please show it. But for now, all you showed was small building levels of destruction. Vader also doesn't need to bust through the ship's shields when he can target its internals with the Force anyway.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#33  Edited By Eredin12

@number3561:

In the actual animated and live action media, these ships seem to have much worse showings. And narrative-wise, the notion that they can casually surface-wipe is ridiculous in the main media.

Nothing that you said here makes sense tbh. First of all, while it is true that live-action media is often toned down compared to comics, Vader SSD feat took place in comics, where those ships have consistently great feats. Secondly, there is no such thing as " main media" in SW, everything is equally canonical. And finally, the fact that they can casually surface wipe, was confirmed many times in canon as you can see

Your evidence for Vader being weakened is literally an image of him being lifted off the operating table lmao. That is not the state he was in when the tsunami feat occurred. What's more, that image suggests that Vader's potential has been permanently nerfed due to his injuries, not that he's only temporarily weakened.

You were not supposed to look at the image, but the text below it, which literally notes he was weakened due to his injuries:

No Caption Provided

The quote above does not say he was weaker than before only at the operating table, but that Sidious knew he would be weaker from now on, meaning after he left the operating table( as clearly, Sidious did not plan for Vader to just be on table forever lol) now it does not say that he would be weakened permanently, and indeed we know when he recovered and suppressed his former self eventually, but he was undeniably weakened for time, during time in which that feat took place, which was just after ROTS. Now this mentions nothing about potential, but it is indeed true that his potential was nerfed permanently(he had the potential to be Father level), though not his power

This doesn't prove that he became "infinitely" stronger

No, but it shows that he became stronger over the years and that you cannot apply his low showings when he was weaker to Vader at his peak which is used in this thread. We have a quote above that tells us he was weakened after ROTS, we know that he managed to turn that around and become stronger than he was in the time of Lords of Sith and that he continued to grow for decades after that. How much did he become stronger is shown by his feats and scaling, like the fact that a Jedi master was able to hold city busting Tsunami for an hour:

We're literally given no timeframe.This feat is also vague as fuck. Nothing to compare the explosion to besides the building-sized ship, or whether Vader used the Force to defend himself.

Yes, we are. We are shown that it happened in the time it took Vader to say a single sentence, " if the endless mercy is truly a vessel of your deliverance" which takes a second or two to say. When he starts saying that comic literally shows that the ship was in space, while when he finishes it, we are shown that it hit the ground. Meaning that between the ship being in space and it hitting the ground, Vader said that short sentence. That is pretty damn clear time frame. So there is absolutely nothing vague about it and we know the power of explosion because it was the result of KE of the ship, just like explosions meteors make, we know the size of the ship and the speed it was moving, which gives us KE explosion had

KE calcs like this are often pure wank using fan-made numbers to inflate a feat far beyond what's actually shown or intended. In this case, turning a large building level TK feat into island level. If you showed this scan to anyone and asked them to evaluate it, they'd laugh if you told them it shows Vader outputting Hawaii-busting energy.

KE is based on 2 things, the speed we were shown and the mass of the ship, where I was rather conservative, as I assumed that it merely had a similar mass to an aircraft carrier, even though it should logically be heavier. Only someone utterly scientifically ignorant would, for example, think that a ship of that size moving at MHS speeds is a large building-level feat. Only someone who knows nothing at all about kinetic energy. And we can happily dismiss the opinion of someone like that as irrelevant. I actually did show this feat to people and they did not have an issue with it, as they understood what KE is

In the movies and cartoons his feats are actually even worse than what I'm arguing for.What you're doing is trying to twist single instances from comics, when his power is much lower on average across most of SW media as indicated by every respect thread.

around 5% of his feats come from movies and cartoons. Around 5%. And even then that is not the case, because in Rebels, for example, he tanked Kyber crystal explosion, which was much more powerful than any Nuke, it was able to vaporize capital ships and was vaporizing TIE fighters that were miles away from its epicenter:

Loading Video...

So basically what are you doing is saying that in mediums that are often specifically toned down, from where only the smallest fraction of Vaders overall feats come from, his feats are not on the same level as in comics, where 90% of his overall feats come from? Is that supposed to be surprising? And even then, as we can see, you are wrong, even in those mediums, he has stuff much better than you gave him credit for because, since your knowledge comes entirely from years-old Reddit threads, which are not often not very reliable and miss ton of feats, you are unaware of any of it. But no , I am not twisting anything, I am simply using his consistent high ends, and not single ( literally) out of context low showing that you tried to use

You haven't proven he was weakened.

No Caption Provided

This is really open and shut case.

And again, we see the size of this city. It's absolutely tiny.

This is just one portion of it, we see that it goes very far in distance. Miles of the area was flooded to the point that Skyscrapers were beneath the water

No Caption Provided

No evidence that trees were vaporized,whereas there is on-panel evidence of them being uprooted and sent flying away. Not to mention we literally see the uprooted trees after the "vaporization" lol.

No evidence other than the fact that in a place where miles of forest was, we see empty rock? Sure, some trees were uprooted while the wave was happening, but my point is that we see them mostly gone later after the wave was over. In fact, we can even see this hill, clearly visible where she was and yet later, when Vader comes to her position, we do not see it, it was gone

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

So what we see there looks more like pieces of broken stone from that, in fact, there were several hills around that forest that we do not see later at all around water as well:

No Caption Provided

If he did, you wouldn't be posting him moving small starships

I did not post him moving a small starship. First of all, this starship was not small, it is literally confirmed to be heavy transport, a capital ship

No Caption Provided

Second, this feat was not about merely moving it, but the speed at which it was done, because KE depends on the speed at which something is moved

or tearing up tiny portions of ships. You'd just show me him lifting an island or shattering a country with the Force.

Meliodas never did either of those things, first of all, but you do not need to do that to be that strong. Super Star Destroyer is not just any ship, so it is ridiculous to talk about " tearing a portion of ship", as if it were just about any ship. The feat is about how durable that ship is, which tells us how strong you need to be to make a crater in it, combined with him being literally confirmed to be more powerful than it as well. That said, here is Vader casually slamming down and overpowering 7,5 km monster that can move its mass at near relativistic speed and briefly resist black holes

No Caption Provided
Loading Video...

No he wasn't. He's called a more powerful "weapon" for the Empire. That doesn't mean he can output more energy, just that he's a more useful/powerful tool for the Empire overall due to his various capabilities.

Word useful was never used, instead, the quote was comparing who is more powerful, he or SSD. If Vader had weaker damage output, he would not be more powerful than it

We saw what amount he busted.

We saw part of it, the image was cut on this part:

No Caption Provided

So we did not see just how far it went that way

Vader also doesn't need to bust through the ship's shields when he can target its internals with the Force anyway.

If you look at the scan you see that way he busted it was by making explosions with his TK which literally went through the place shields are on( shields are right above the hull, a few cm above) so he would indeed have to overcome them

Avatar image for number3561
Number3561

456

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34  Edited By Number3561

@eredin12:

Nothing that you said here makes sense tbh. First of all, while it is true that live-action media is often toned down compared to comics, Vader SSD feat took place in comics, where those ships have consistently great feats. Secondly, there is no such thing as " main media" in SW, everything is equally canonical. And the fact that they can casually surface wipe, was confirmed many times in canon as you can see

The movies and the cartoons are the main canon as far as I know, everything else comes second. And star destroyer feats are pathetic in those. If star destroyers could casually surface wipe there'd be no need for a Death Star.

You were not supposed to look at the image, but the text below it, which literally notes he was weakened due to his injuries:

I did, that's what I was referring to. I only brought up the image because you were trying to use Vader on the operating table immediately after his recovery as if it was relevant to a healthy Vader during the tsunami.

that is the same state he was in Tsunami feat, as that took place in the same year. The quote above does not say he was weaker than before only at the operating table, but that Sidious knew he would be weaker from now on, now it does not say that he would be weakened permanently, and indeed we know when he recovered and suppressed his former self, but he was undeniably weakened for time, right after ROTS, where that feat took place. Now this mentions nothing about potential, but it is indeed true that his potential was nerfed permanently, though not his power

It was permanent. His "broken body" after the Mustafar fight is never going back to the way it was before. But this is irrelevant, because you haven't shown at all that Vader was nerfed during the tsunami scene. Until you bring a statement suggesting he was weakened at the time of that feat (at the time, not a year before while immediately post-op) then that feat demonstrates Vader's limits.

No, but it shows that he became stronger over the years. We have a quote above that tells us he was weakened after ROTS, we know that he managed to turn that around and become stronger than he was in the time of Lords of Sith and that he continued to grow for decades after that. How much did he become stronger is shown by his feats and scaling, like the fact that a normal Jedi master was able to hold city busting Tsunami for an hour:

Unquantifiably stronger, not "infinitely." Where is that tsunami stated to be city-busting and when does Vader overpower this unknown Jedi to be scaled to him?

Yes, we are. We are shown that it happened in the time it took Vader to say a single sentence, " if the endless mercy is truly a vessel of your deliverance" When he starts saying that comic literally shows that the ship was in space, while when he finishes it, we are shown that it hit the ground. So no, there is absolutely nothing vague about it and we know power of explosion because it was the result of KE, we know the size of ship and the speed it was moving, which gives us KE explosion had

You don't know the time frame. You're assuming it happened in a few seconds because the narration split it into two text boxes and we didn't see anything in between lol. Comics are a static medium, so we don't know how long it took. Regardless, this island level wank is debunked by the fact that nothing even close to island level destruction occurred when the ship hit the planet.

Only someone utterly scientifically ignorant would, for example, think that a ship of that size moving at MHS+ speeds is a large building-level feat. Only someone who knows nothing at all about kinetic energy. And we can happily dismiss the opinion of someone like that as irrelevant.

No evidence of it moving at those speeds, so this KE calc is useless. Perhaps the author of that comic was scientifically illiterate, because we should've seen an island wiping crater if this were even real.

And even then that is not the case, because in Rebels, for example, he tanked Kyber crystal explosion, which was much more powerful than any Nuke, it was able to vaporize capital ships and was vaporizing TIE fighters that were miles away from its epicenter:

If you can show Vader tanking that explosion, feel free. You keep posting him moving building sized shit with his TK.

So basically what are you doing is saying that in mediums that are often specifically toned down, from where only the smallest fraction of Vaders overall feats come from, his feats are not on the same level as in comics, where 90% of his overall feats come from?

Why do you assume his feats in the main medium are specifically toned down rather than one or two in the comic side stories being specifically inflated? Seems like a bias.

But no , I am not twisting anything, I am simply using his consistent high ends, and not single ( literally) out of context low showing that you tried to use

You try to argue vaporization when there is none, and argue island-busting KE with no given speed or timeframe when a literal building level explosion is shown. You aren't showing consistent anything. The respect thread shows dozens of feats at the building level or lower. Also, I find it funny that this supposed "context" I missed is Vader being weakened during the tsunami feat, something you've done fuck all to prove besides showing Vader being weakened at the time of his literal creation far before this lol.

This is just one portion of it, we see that it goes very far in distance. Miles of area were flooded to the point that Skyscrapers were beneath water

Dude, you can look up any pictures of that "city." It isn't bigger than a couple city blocks, even in what you showed.

No evidence other than the fact that in a place where miles of forest was, we see empty rock? Sure, some trees were uprooted while the wave was happening, but my point is that we see them mostly gone later after the wave was over.

So uprooting grass is now vaporization because we just see dirt? What kind of argument is this? The trees were gone because they were blown away, which is shown on panel.

So what we see there looks more like pieces of broken stone of that, in fact there were several hills around that forest that we do not see later at all around water as well:

No it doesn't. It's clearly tree trunks, you can see the spiky leaf pattern. Regardless, the fact that entire tree trunks are shown blowing away during the actual feat debunks this vaporization nonsense. This is just extra:

No Caption Provided

I did not? First of all, that starship was not small, it is literally confirmed to be heavy transport, a capital ship

I see no evidence that the ship was even bigger than a large building. Vader's TK is consistently shown to be building level on average though, so makes sense.

Second, this feat was not about moving it, but the speed at which it was done, because KE depends on the speed at which something is moved

You made up the speed. It wasn't given by any character, narrator, or the author.

Meliodas never did either of those things

Never said he did. BoS Meliodas is a town/large hill level character. Already more than enough to oneshot a high street tier with building level TK like Vader

That said, here is Vader casually slamming down and overpowering 7,5 km monster that can move its mass at near relativistic speed and briefly resist black holes

TKing a building sized monster isn't impressive here. The monster's size making it harder to pull than the debris that was being pulled at visibly slow speeds is not a speed feat. No wonder you think Vader's so strong lmao.

Word useful was never used, instead, the quote was comparing who is more powerful, he or SSD. If Vader had weaker damage output, he would not be more powerful than it

The word "firepower" was also never used. Vader being a more powerful weapon does not necessarily mean his force blasts hit stronger than the ship's maximum ordinance. He can be utilized by the Empire in ways star destroyers can't due to his capabilities. And considering Vader's never shown anything even close to country or surface level or whatever the hell you're arguing, I'm completely fine with this interpretation.

So we did not see just how far it went that way

Then we can only go by what we see.

If you look at scan you see that way he busted it was by making explosions with his TK which literally went through place shields are on( shields are right above hull, few cm above) so he would indeed have to overcome them

Could literally have shredded the internal circuitry and power source. Nothing about him overcoming the shields is mentioned or even necessary for the feat to have happened.

Avatar image for supreme101
Supreme101

7589

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

Vader

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#36  Edited By Eredin12

@number3561:

The movies and the cartoons are the main canon as far as I know, everything else comes second.

If star destroyers could casually surface wipe there'd be no need for a Death Star.

Well that is an issue, you do not know much you know what you saw on years-old RT. You see, there is no main canon in SW, every source is equally canonical in Disney canon, so all of those novels and comics are as canon as any of the movies and cartoons, and furthermore, the Vader SSD feat that I brought, took place in the comic where Star destroyers have great feats, not in cartoons or movies, so even if you were to argue that SSDs are only that strong in comics, it does not matter, as feat is from comics as well

This is not true, the reason Death Star was wanted is that it could blow up the planet in a single shot. Star Destroyer can "casually" surface wipe, in a few hours, but death star would destroy not just the surface, but instead, it would turn the entire planet into dust, in a single shot. Emperor wanted it due to that, to send a message and install fear, while people like Thrawn thought that it was not needed and that Star Destroyers fleets were much more practical

I did, that's what I was referring to. I only brought up the image because you were trying to use Vader on the operating table immediately after his recovery as if it was relev ant to a healthy Vader during the tsunami.

Vader after his operation was as healthy as ever after that. In the sense that, he was always, from then on, burned just as much, and he was dependent on the suit just as much. More importantly, as I pointed out, the operating table has literally nothing to do with this statement, Palpatine was not talking about Vader being on the operating table for the love of God lol, he was not talking about Vader in just those few minutes, he was talking about how he would be affected after that, noting he would be weakened, which includes Tsunami instance which takes place in the same year

It was permanent. His "broken body" after the Mustafar fight is never going back to the way it was before.

His broken body is not, but canon told us that, while his broken body weakened him a lot at first, he was able to overcome it with time by strengthening his spirit enough later on, here is confirmation of that:

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

-- Lords Of The Sith

As we can see, by the time of the Lords of Sith, he was more powerful than before. While fighting Ben, in ANH, he was also noted to be more powerful than he was in OWK( which was 5 years after Lords of Sith):

We learned that his growth was continuous:

He was stronger than ever, stronger than at any prior point in his life in the post-ESB era:

And he was even stronger than that in ROTJ

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

-- Return Of The Jedi

So as you can see, Vader grew a lot with time. Posting his single low showing at his weakest is not in any way relevant to a thread talking about prime Vader

But this is irrelevant, because you haven't shown at all that Vader was nerfed during the tsunami scene. Until you bring a statement suggesting he was weakened at the time of that feat (at the time, not a year before while immediately post-op) then that feat demonstrates Vader's limits.

So you now are expecting me to post a statement from that comic itself about Vader being weakened in order for you to accept it, despite the fact that it was literally confirmed that Vader was not merely weakened for few minutes he was at the operating table, which you seem to think, but rather that he would be weakend from that point on, in the future. Until he eventually overcame that, yes, but that only took place full 5 years after. So really that is a very bad argument. Even more idiotic is an argument that Vader, despite being stated to have numerous power growths from that point on and both himslef having much better TK showings later on, and weaker Jedi than prime Vader having them as well, is somehow limited by a single low showing right after ROTS. You should do better than that

Unquantifiably stronger, not "infinitely."

It would only be unquantifiable if we did not have feats to quantify it, fortunately, we do.

Where is that tsunami stated to be city-busting

and when does Vader overpower this unknown Jedi to be scaled to him?

In the scan I posted, it notes that Wave was all around the city, as was his TK barrier that he raised and the entire point of the story is about him saving the city:

No Caption Provided

Vader did not overpower that Jedi, but he is confirmed as more powerful than Yoda, and Yoda was directly confirmed to be the most powerful Jedi in history:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-is-more-powerful-than-yoda-in-the-forc-2256204/

In fact, Dooku himself is stated to be on the same level as Yoda power-wise, and Vader, at his prime, was noted to be more powerful than Dooku by light years:

You don't know the time frame.No evidence of it moving at those speeds, so this KE calc is useless.

we didn't see anything in between lol.

Yes I do, the time frame is the time it took Vader to say a short, continuous sentence, which would take 2 seconds at most

We actually saw everything in between, we saw where the ship was as Vader was saying that sentence, and where it was after he said it. Before he finished, it was in space, after he finished, it hit the ground:

No Caption Provided

Comic here gave us an exact time frame

nothing even close to island level destruction occurred when the ship hit the planet.

First of all, we have no idea how big the explosion was, we see that it was massive and that ship is fully destroyed, but we do not know just how big it was. More importantly, judging power in fiction based on visuals alone, based on collateral damage as the end be all, is the worst thing you could do. Writers often ignore collateral damage, hence why planetary or even universal characters( DBS) punching each other into the ground often do not cause even building-level collateral damage. This entire thread is about that, showing high tiers punching ground and yet causing street tier collateral damage and sometimes not even that:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/dceu-viva-visuals-2228822/

Trying to ignore better factors, like KE that we know for example, in favor of visuals, is, in general, about the worst thing one can do, and here in particular, you do not even know just how big the explosion was, it might as well have been as big as an island, we cannot see one way or another.

Perhaps the author of that comic was scientifically illiterate, because we should've seen an island wiping crater if this were even real.

The exact size of the crater or explosion is not shown, so we cannot tell how big it was, but stuff like that is something every writer ignores, it does not mean that they are scientifically illiterate, but rather, that they do not think collateral damage is the big factor they need to often show, that is why we do not judge power based on visuals and collateral damage when we have better things we can base it on, like known KE.

If you can show Vader tanking that explosion, feel free. You keep posting him moving building sized shit with his TK.

First of all, I only posted one instance of that, and it is not about" moving building-sized shit", but the speed at which it was moved which is the most important factor in the KE equation. Speed is much more important part of the equation as it is squared unlike mass, and yet you have been acting as if the mass of it is the only factor and doing some weird mental gymnastics about how, even though we were shown that ship going from space to surface happened in the span of Vader saying one short sentence, we somehow do not know the time frame and Vader probably was saying that sentence over 5 hours or something, talking at speed of one word an hour lol. Other feat that I posted, like slamming and overpowering Summa, are not" moving building-sized shit". But here is him tanking that explosion

Loading Video...

Why do you assume his feats in the main medium are specifically toned down rather than one or two in the comic side stories being specifically inflated? Seems like a bias.

Smh, because:

1. Again, there is no such thing as a main medium

2. There is no such thing as side stories

3. It is not " one or two", he has a lot more showings in comics far above what we see in those mediums, and not just him, but also force users confirmed to be weaker than him, over which he scales.

You try to argue vaporization when there is none,

Exact there was vaporization, we saw that in a place where a large forest was, mostly rock was all that was left

and argue island-busting KE with no given speed or timeframe when a literal building level explosion is shown

1. We were given an explicit time frame lol, the time it took Vader to say a short, continuous sentence

2. Building level explosion was not shown, we do not know how big the explosion was, as we have absolutely nothing to compare it with, but regardless of how big it was, visuals are not the most important thing, KE, which we know, is much more reliable way to judge it than visuals. Just like you will not argue that DCEU Namek is sub-wall level because when he punched the ground it did not cause any notable visual destruction

Also, I find it funny that this supposed "context" I missed is Vader being weakened during the tsunami feat, something you've done fuck all to prove besides showing Vader being weakened at the time of his literal creation far before this lol.

Anyone with even modest reading ability who looks at this:

will see that it is not just talking about just Vader at the operating table but what would be the case in the future as well, as the entire point is how Sidious knew it will impact Vader in the future. So when this quote states Sidious knew he would be weakened in the future, he of course did not mean he would just be weakened at the operating table lol. The Tsunami instance did not take place " far after that", it took place in the same year. Not only that, but the fact that you ignored numerous confirmations of his continuous growth after that and feats showing it, and instead kept thinking that this single low showing is what shows limits for Vader for his entire life speaks enough about your, RT-based, knowledge of him.

Dude, you can look up any pictures of that "city." It isn't bigger than a couple city blocks, even in what you showed.

We literally see miles of the area flooded to the point that Skyscrapers were beneath it, that is not a " couple city blocks area", but anyway, it does not matter. That was Vader at his weakest, he not only has much better showings later on but so do force users much wekaer than him

So uprooting grass is now vaporization because we just see dirt? What kind of argument is this? The trees were gone because they were blown away, which is shown on panel.

Show me where on the panel do you see all of the trees that in that forest then? Miles of it were gone, so show me where you see them clearly there

. Regardless, the fact that entire tree trunks are shown blowing away during the actual feat debunks this vaporization nonsense.

No, it does not? Let me show you a video to illustrate what I am saying. See this at 1:28? Swing from Ichigo first breaks hill up uproots it, and blows it away if you will, and then we see that hill vaporized:

Loading Video...

That is what I am saying took place here as well. Yes, at first some trees were uprooted like that, but later, we see them erased

No it doesn't. It's clearly tree trunks, you can see the spiky leaf pattern

Those were really not trees though. Again, please let me illustrate it for you. See this image? You have the same thing here directly in front of Vader:

No Caption Provided

And yet we see later when Vader throws her and walks all the way to the sea in front, no trees are sown there, on the way in front of him. What we see instead is this mountain of smoke in the air, smoke that was not there at all before. Instead, it is smoke like you would expect after a large amount of vaporizing happens like that

No Caption Provided

I see no evidence that the ship was even bigger than a large building. Vader's TK is consistently shown to be building level on average though, so makes sense.

Actually, that is how big it was, I agree with that, what you do not get through, is that moving a large building at MHS+ speeds would not be building level, but island level, and really point of this feat is not even power itself, but rather a durability aspect of it, as Vader utterly no sold that. Vader's TK is not consistently shown to be building level, anyone with even modest knowledge about the verse that does not come from years old RT will tell you that, I myself have posted showings far above that in this very thread.

You made up the speed. It wasn't given by any character, narrator, or the author.

The author literally showed us a ship going from space to ground in a span of a character saying a single short sentence lmao

TKing a building sized monster isn't impressive here.

Show me a single building in this entire world that is 7,432 meters large. No such building exists of course, and you know that it does not, but it seems to me your entire debating at this point is about pushing the view you gained in the old RT and just being unwilling to admit that you gained the wrong impression

The monster's size making it harder to pull than the debris that was being pulled at visibly slow speeds is not a speed feat.

No, it is not, but this is. Here is Summa hitting Vader's ship and sending it flying from deep space onto the planet, in seconds, too fast for Vader to change course with controls:

No Caption Provided

And when Summa did that, it also followed them, fast enough to be there, on surface when they landed:

In other words, Summa flew from deep space to the surface in seconds, that is what is a speed feat, that is what Vader overpowered

The word "firepower" was also never used.

No, it was not, but what do you think makes the ship powerful? its firepower, of course. I mean, not just that, but firepower is the main thing

. He can be utilized by the Empire in ways star destroyers can't due to his capabilities.

This goes both ways though, if he was weaker, it would mean that SSD can be used in a way he cannot, so he would not be more powerful. In order for him to be more powerful, rather than just more useful, he must be more powerful than it. After all, inquisitors can also be used in ways SSD cannot, and they are not noted as more powerful than it. If it merely said that he was more useful, you would have a point, but it did not say that.

Then we can only go by what we see.

If we had no other source, true, but we do have other sources as well:

β€”-

Could literally have shredded the internal circuitry and power source. Nothing about him overcoming the shields is mentioned or even necessary for the feat to have happened.

The only way for it not to be necessary is if he, as you said, destroyed the power source, which was the main reactor, but if he did that, then the ship would explode, which it did not. We know that he did not, in fact, destory the reactor, so he absolutely had to overcome shields for his explosions to go through them like that

Avatar image for ninjarizer
NinjaRizer

7314

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for mangacomics69
MangaComics69

6016

Forum Posts

511

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Avatar image for pizzagod342
Pizzagod342

3254

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Vader scales higher

Avatar image for number3561
Number3561

456

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#40  Edited By Number3561

@eredin12:

Well that is an issue, you do not know much you know what you saw on years-old RT. You see, there is no main canon in SW, every source is equally canonical in Disney canon, so all of those novels and comics are as canon as any of the movies and cartoons, and furthermore, the Vader SSD feat that I brought, took place in the comic where Star destroyers have great feats, not in cartoons or movies, so even if you were to argue that SSDs are only that strong in comics, it does not matter, as feat is from comics as well

I agree I'm not knowledgeable on all his showings, but you don't need to be to get a sense of where his power sits overall. The RT is from 2020; it's gonna give a much better overall picture of Vader from the past 40 years than individual moments from comics that you're massively inflating beyond what's shown.

Do you really disagree that Vader, on average across all his showings in Star Wars media, is operating at around large building level?

Vader after his operation was as healthy as ever after that. In the sense that, he was always, from then on, burned just as much, and he was dependent on the suit just as much. More importantly, as I pointed out, the operating table has literally nothing to do with this statement, Palpatine was not talking about Vader being on the operating table for the love of God lol, he was not talking about Vader in just those few minutes, he was talking about how he would be affected after that, noting he would be weakened, which includes Tsunami instance which takes place in the same year

Gonna drop the tsunami, since you seem to be arguing that Vader simply grew stronger over time, not that he was specifically weakened during that particular comic.

In the scan I posted, it notes that Wave was all around the city, as was his TK barrier that he raised and the entire point of the story is about him saving the city:

That doesn't mean the tsunami was city-busting, just that there could've been damage across the city and casualties. But I digress.

Yes I do, the time frame is the time it took Vader to say a short, continuous sentence, which would take 2 seconds at most

We don't know if Vader continued speaking without stopping or if there was a pause for dramatic effect since it was split into two panels.

First of all, we have no idea how big the explosion was, we see that it was massive and that ship is fully destroyed, but we do not know just how big it was. More importantly, judging power in fiction based on visuals alone, based on collateral damage as the end be all, is the worst thing you could do. Writers often ignore collateral damage, hence why planetary or even universal characters( DBS) punching each other into the ground often do not cause even building-level collateral damage. This entire thread is about that, showing high tiers punching ground and yet causing street tier collateral damage and sometimes not even that:

We see that the explosion is about the size of a large building-sized ship. Crazy how you pretend that scientific usage of KE is extremely important all the way up until the this supposed island-level object actually strikes the earth. After this, we shouldn't appeal to scientific accuracy and instead assume that the crashing spaceship used ki control to magically contain its power to a building-sized area lol. That's not unscientific?

You use science to wank the feat, then ignore science to handwave the collateral damage that the KE would entail. Let's ignore that this feat was aided by the planet's gravity as well.

The exact size of the crater or explosion is not shown, so we cannot tell how big it was, but stuff like that is something every writer ignores, it does not mean that they are scientifically illiterate, but rather, that they do not think collateral damage is the big factor they need to often show, that is why we do not judge power based on visuals and collateral damage when we have better things we can base it on, like known KE.

I could use this exact same argument for KE. Writers don't often intend for fans to inflate moving a building-sized object to island level by assuming a speed that they didn't provide.

Other feat that I posted, like slamming and overpowering Summa, are not" moving building-sized shit". But here is him tanking that explosion

The explosion does not look too much for a building-level character. What is impressive about this? We don't even know if Vader tanked it or defended with the Force.

Show me where on the panel do you see all of the trees that in that forest then? Miles of it were gone, so show me where you see them clearly there

Here:

No Caption Provided

I don't know why you keep pretending you don't see the trunks piled up in front of Vader. Or here:

No Caption Provided

Literally see the trees being uprooted, sent flying, and landing in large chunks. Those gas molecules sure look big.

Those were really not trees though. Again, please let me illustrate it for you. See this image? You have the same thing here directly in front of Vader:

The dirt bumps in that scan are not the blatant tree trunks in front of Vader posted above. I don't know who you think you're fooling.

And yet we see later when Vader throws her and walks all the way to the sea in front, no trees are sown there, on the way in front of him. What we see instead is this mountain of smoke in the air, smoke that was not there at all before. Instead, it is smoke like you would expect after a large amount of vaporizing happens like that

Or it's just dust from uprooting a forest's worth of vegetation? You honestly believe that's superheated boiling vapor or something?

I myself have posted showings far above that in this very thread.

The forest feat sure, the others aren't.

Show me a single building in this entire world that is 7,432 meters large. No such building exists of course, and you know that it does not, but it seems to me your entire debating at this point is about pushing the view you gained in the old RT and just being unwilling to admit that you gained the wrong impression

No Caption Provided

This ^^^^ is not a 7.4 km monster lmao. It's smaller than many modern day buildings.

No, it is not, but this is. Here is Summa hitting Vader's ship and sending it flying from deep space onto the planet, in seconds, too fast for Vader to change course with controls:

That's a strength feat, not speed...

In other words, Summa flew from deep space to the surface in seconds, that is what is a speed feat, that is what Vader overpowered

Show me where it's stated it took seconds.

No, it was not, but what do you think makes the ship powerful? its firepower, of course. I mean, not just that, but firepower is the main thing

Again, Vader has qualities that are separate from firepower that don't need to be compared 1-to-1 like that.

This goes both ways though, if he was weaker, it would mean that SSD can be used in a way he cannot, so he would not be more powerful. In order for him to be more powerful, rather than just more useful, he must be more powerful than it. After all, inquisitors can also be used in ways SSD cannot, and they are not noted as more powerful than it. If it merely said that he was more useful, you would have a point, but it did not say that.

"Power" is the ability to enact a will or objective, not just raw output of energy. Someone with the skill, intelligence, and Force of Vader is gonna be a more powerful weapon for the Empire than any one ship. Any competent Sith probably would be. A ship can't telepathically extract information, force choke someone from across a planet, or lead armies to win battles.

If we had no other source, true, but we do have other sources as well:

How does this imply he destroyed more than what we see on panel? We see him tear a hole in the side of the destroyer. The hole just wasn't very big.

The only way for it not to be necessary is if he, as you said, destroyed the power source, which was the main reactor, but if he did that, then the ship would explode, which it did not. We know that he did not, in fact, destory the reactor, so he absolutely had to overcome shields for his explosions to go through them like that

Nothing was stopping him bypassing the shields with the Force. I don't see any reason why he'd need to go past the shields to do what he did.

Avatar image for number3561
Number3561

456

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#41  Edited By Number3561
Avatar image for sunshinedobbs
SunshineDobbs

507

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@number3561:

Show me a single building in this entire world that is 7,432 meters large. No such building exists of course, and you know that it does not, but it seems to me your entire debating at this point is about pushing the view you gained in the old RT and just being unwilling to admit that you gained the wrong impression

No Caption Provided

This ^^^^ is not a 7.4 km monster lmao. It's smaller than many modern day buildings.

I don't know why Eredin keeps arguing this one, while it's still a good feat, this particular Summa-Verminoth isn't 7.4 km tall, it's 200m tall according to Ochi:

No Caption Provided

Don't know much about Meliodas so I'll refrain from commenting on the outcome.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@number3561:

I agree I'm not knowledgeable on all his showings, but you don't need to be to get a sense of where his power sits overall

Well maybe not on all, but when your only knowledge comes from years-old RT that in itself did not list a lot of things that he either did or scales to even at the time it was made, years ago, never mind stuff that came out in years since, then you have a big problem

. The RT is from 2020; it's gonna give a much better overall picture of Vader from the past 40 years than individual moments from comics that you're massively inflating beyond what's shown.

Do you really disagree that Vader, on average across all his showings in Star Wars media, is operating at around large building level?

Here is the first problem. You see, for most of the past 40 years, the only thing that that was coming out, was Legends stuff. Disney canon started doing Vader comics and novels only in about 2015, before that, as far as canon was concerned, he mostly had decades-old movies in which he had like 2 fights. Meaning that the RT in question, from which your knowledge comes from, only lists part of feats that came out in those 5 years, and it misses everything that came in the next 3, which includes his best feats, none of which I inflated really

Of course, I do, First of all, I have no idea what " on average" even means here tbh with you. I mean, just how on earth can you possibly calculate that? And rules of this site themselves say that characters operate at their best, not counting PIS, it does not say we calculate some imaginary average, whatever that is( again, I have no idea how can you calculate that other than saying average is whatever you want it to be). I will tell you this though, LA is one of the most toned down mediums in SW, and even there, he has feat well above building level:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/can-dceu-wonder-woman-replicate-this-la-vaders-fea-2304855/

Gonna drop the tsunami, since you seem to be arguing that Vader simply grew stronger over time, not that he was specifically weakened during that particular comic.

I was arguing both, you see he was at the first weekend after ROTS, by that I mean that he was much weaker than he was as Anakin, but with years of training, eventually suppressed his past self( by the time of LOTS) and kept growing and growing over years, resulting in his prime in ROTJ, which is the version used here. But yea, let us move on

That doesn't mean the tsunami was city-busting, just that there could've been damage across the city and casualties. But I digress

Well at least it was city-wide, we can go with that, and yet he held it for an entire hour, so clearly, prime Vader, who is stronger, is not going to struggle with that kind of stuff, that was my point

We don't know if Vader continued speaking without stopping or if there was a pause for dramatic effect since it was split into two panels.

He was just saying 2 sentences though, it would not make any sense for him to make long pauses between 2 sentences in that context. If he made some long pause, then what he was saying would lose any meaning, not only that, but he was specifically talking to Doctor who was dying, as he quite literally crushed he before this, so he would not be able to make such pauses because of that as well:

We see that the explosion is about the size of a large building-sized ship.

Where do you see that? We do not see ship there at all, it is dwarfing it:

No Caption Provided

We simply have nothing to compare explosion with and tell just how big it was

Crazy how you pretend that scientific usage of KE is extremely important all the way up until the this supposed island-level object actually strikes the earth. After this, we shouldn't appeal to scientific accuracy and instead assume that the crashing spaceship used ki control to magically contain its power to a building-sized area lol. That's not unscientific?

I said nothing about Ki control though, Namek does not have KI control and yet when he knocks out DCEU Supes, them hitting ground barely damages it:

Would you think it is fair to look at collateral damage and conclude that they are all street tier? Of course not, visuals are something everybody ignores. That does not mean we cannot use science to calculate what we can, we must do that, because if we are to compare feats with each other, we must first quantify them with something objective, like science, that is also what you did when you said splitting hill is town level. So yea, we can use science to calculate what we can, like KE here, because we have mass and the writer gave us a time frame, the time between two short sentences, but we also must be aware that in fiction, there will always be limitations like that, which are ignored, that is what I am saying. in NNT as well, collateral damage is also often ignored, but that does not mean you cannot use science to quantify what you can

. Let's ignore that this feat was aided by the planet's gravity as well.

Gravity pulls at a speed of 9,8 meters per second, that did not affect this in any notable way, and again, the point of this feat is mostly durability

The explosion does not look too much for a building-level character. What is impressive about this? We don't even know if Vader tanked it or defended with the Force.

An explosion made by a large building-level ship slamming into the planet at MHS speeds would vaporize any building-level character, as a result, is island-level. For it to be building level you would literally have to assume that ship was was moving at the speed of the car or something lol, not only that, but regardless of did Vader use force shield or his durability, that is not relevant, as he can use force shield in a fight at any time, my point was to show feat that is far above building level or even town level

I don't know why you keep pretending you don't see the trunks piled up in front of Vader. Or here:

Because I do not, I see some trees being uprooted at first and I explained that in post above, but as I also pointed out in post above, those things you pointed out, which we also see here in front of Vader, are not uprooted trees:

No Caption Provided

We see that later when Vader throws her and walks all the way to the sea in front, no trees are sown there, on the way in front of him. What we see instead is this mountain of smoke in the air, smoke that was not there at all before. Instead, it is smoke like you would expect after a large amount of vaporizing happens like that

No Caption Provided

The dirt bumps in that scan are not the blatant tree trunks in front of Vader posted above. I don't know who you think you're fooling.

They are indeed not, but you posted pictures where both look same and said in one of them it is trees for some reason

Or it's just dust from uprooting a forest's worth of vegetation? You honestly believe that's superheated boiling vapor or something?

The forest feat sure, the others aren't.

Dirt, as far as I know, does not look like purple and white cloud, does it?

A ragdolling 7,5 km monster that can move at sub-relativistic speeds is far above building level, as is the ripping the side of Super Star Destroyer.

This ^^^^ is not a 7.4 km monster lmao. It's smaller than many modern day buildings.

You should not judge things based on inconsistent visuals when there is direct, out-of-the-universe confirmation of size of Kaiju in question. Even visually, it was dwarfing Sith citadel on Exegol, being many times larger than it, which is itself around 2 km km

No Caption Provided

This is said Sith Citadel in question, it is absolutely enormous, much larger than any modern building

No Caption Provided

It is shown to be as big as Final Order Star Destroyers:

No Caption Provided

That's a strength feat, not speed...

Strength feat far above building level, keep in mind Vader casually overpowered same monster, but it is also speed feat, because Summa literally flew that same distance in seconds as well

Show me where it's stated it took seconds.

Do you realize that things can be shown, rather than stated? It was shown that the ship was moving so fast that Vader was unable to use controls to alter course, which would surely not be case if it took longer than seconds

Again, Vader has qualities that are separate from firepower that don't need to be compared 1-to-1 like that.

So do inquisitors, and many other characters, but it is not that that makes them more powerful than SSD

"Power" is the ability to enact a will or objective, not just raw output of energy. Someone with the skill, intelligence, and Force of Vader is gonna be a more powerful weapon for the Empire than any one ship. Any competent Sith probably would be. A ship can't telepathically extract information, force choke someone from across a planet, or lead armies to win battles.

Ship of this sort can vaporize armies from space, and force choking or using telepathy is again, something any Inquisitor can do as well, that is not what makes them more powerful than SSD( they are not in fact)

How does this imply he destroyed more than what we see on panel? We see him tear a hole in the side of the destroyer. The hole just wasn't very big.

he did not say hole, he said he ripped side of it though

Nothing was stopping him bypassing the shields with the Force. I don't see any reason why he'd need to go past the shields to do what he did.

Because he made explosions with force, that is my point. he made explosions that destroyed this much of ship and that went through place shields are on, overcoming them as result

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#44  Edited By Eredin12

@sunshinedobbs: Ochi is an idiot though, he is not treated as a reliable character, he is more of a comic relief. He had no way of knowing just how big it is. I do not think his comment is more important than out of universe source telling us how large Summas are on average ( this Summa in particular even hunts its own kind) or fact that this one was shown to be many times larger than sith citadel on Exegol:

No Caption Provided

Which is absolutely enormous

No Caption Provided

It is shown to be as big as Final Order Star Destroyers:

No Caption Provided

The citadel in question itself was much larger than 200 meters, and Summa made it look tiny in comparison, so even visually, we have seen things that match with what the book said of how tall Summas are.

Avatar image for number3561
Number3561

456

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#45  Edited By Number3561

@eredin12:

Well maybe not on all, but when your only knowledge comes from years-old RT that in itself did not list a lot of things that he either did or scales to even at the time it was made, years ago, never mind stuff that came out in years since, then you have a big problem

The real issue is that the RT is full of dozens of feats putting him at a certain level of power across multiple media and probably dozens of creators (comics, novels, film, series, games). And it's actually pretty consistent when you compare the feats listed in that RT. Even most of the feats you've listed here aren't out of the ordinary from what he's capable of on the high-end in that RT, although we clearly disagree on how impressive some of them are. I'd agree that the RT was missing the forest feat, but one feat against dozens of other showings that he's been performing for years is again not going to be a huge game-changer just in terms of feat volume.

Disney canon started doing Vader comics and novels only in about 2015, before that, as far as canon was concerned, he mostly had decades-old movies in which he had like 2 fights. Meaning that the RT in question, from which your knowledge comes from, only lists part of feats that came out in those 5 years, and it misses everything that came in the next 3, which includes his best feats, none of which I inflated really

By 2020, we've had 10-12 movies worth and many seasons of cartoons that give us a view of the overall power of Force users, and it's absolutely nowhere near island-country level. Even most of Vader's non-LA appearances (comic, novel, and video game) listed in that RT are consistent with large building level. I'm not just gonna ignore that because of one or two new comic feats; if we didn't take characters with long multi-author histories on average, you'd have crazy high-ends that absolutely don't match what characters are capable of in their day-to-day.

Of course, I do, First of all, I have no idea what " on average" even means here tbh with you. I mean, just how on earth can you possibly calculate that? And rules of this site themselves say that characters operate at their best, not counting PIS, it does not say we calculate some imaginary average, whatever that is( again, I have no idea how can you calculate that other than saying average is whatever you want it to be).

PIS is itself a subjective assessment; people argue all the time over what counts. Getting a vague sense of a character's average is not the impossible ask you make it out to be, man. Just look at the level Vader generally operates at across all media, identify if there are a couple outliers on either end, and you have his power level. The RT made a good case that overall he's sitting at large building level TK with lower physicals.

He was just saying 2 sentences though, it would not make any sense for him to make long pauses between 2 sentences in that context. If he made some long pause, then what he was saying would lose any meaning, not only that, but he was specifically talking to Doctor who was dying, as he quite literally crushed he before this, so he would not be able to make such pauses because of that as well:

We have no idea when in relation to the panel this was even said, as it clearly wasn't concurrent with the panel. If it was during the actual explosion, the doctor wouldn't have heard it. He'd have died from the impact.

Where do you see that? We do not see ship there at all, it is dwarfing it:

We see the debris from the ship comparable to the explosion:

No Caption Provided

Those sure as hell don't look like rocks in the middle there. Also the fact that there is no curvature to the planet, which you'd expect to see with an island level explosion. And the fact that we see Darth Vader stepping out of the smoke on the very next panel, when he clearly didn't super-sprint across an island-sized crater.

I said nothing about Ki control though, Namek does not have KI control and yet when he knocks out DCEU Supes, them hitting ground barely damages it:

Would you think it is fair to look at collateral damage and conclude that they are all street tier? Of course not, visuals are something everybody ignores.

Here's the difference: no one's trying to calculate Namek's strength by using Superman's mass and speed from that gif, coming up with a KE calc, and using that to give him AP that's massively above what's shown in that moment. People would probably just scale him to his other feats, which is fine, and far different from you're doing with Vader here.

That does not mean we cannot use science to calculate what we can, we must do that, because if we are to compare feats with each other, we must first quantify them with something objective, like science, that is also what you did when you said splitting hill is town level. So yea, we can use science to calculate what we can, like KE here, because we have mass and the writer gave us a time frame, the time between two short sentences, but we also must be aware that in fiction, there will always be limitations like that, which are ignored, that is what I am saying. in NNT as well, collateral damage is also often ignored, but that does not mean you cannot use science to quantify what you can

Again, no one's saying you can't use science to calculate a certain amount of damage done by an attack to the environment; that's not at issue here. But if you're going to calc the KE of a falling object using an assumed speed because scientifically "it would have a certain amount of force", you can't just ignore that "scientifically" we should expect at least relative collateral damage in that ballpark. You can't cling to science for accuracy and argue it should be discarded for narrative reasons in the very same feat.

Gravity pulls at a speed of 9,8 meters per second, that did not affect this in any notable way, and again, the point of this feat is mostly durability

Reentry speeds can be in excess of 30 km/s for some comets merely due to Earth's pull/orbit; it's not the same as gravitational acceleration at ground level.

An explosion made by a large building-level ship slamming into the planet at MHS speeds would vaporize any building-level character, as a result, is island-level. For it to be building level you would literally have to assume that ship was was moving at the speed of the car or something lol, not only that, but regardless of did Vader use force shield or his durability, that is not relevant, as he can use force shield in a fight at any time, my point was to show feat that is far above building level or even town level

If the author actually believed the ship had island-busting levels of force, he'd have shown it. Not a building-sized explosion that we see Vader immediately step out of on the very next panel. My biggest problem with this selective application of science is the blatant ignoring of author's intent.

Because I do not, I see some trees being uprooted at first and I explained that in post above, but as I also pointed out in post above, those things you pointed out, which we also see here in front of Vader, are not uprooted trees:

The tiny dirt patches in that scan are not the same as the tree trunks and branches that are clearly outlined and literally stacked higher above the ground here (also the mostly intact trunks we see lying in front of the girl after their supposed "vaporization"):

No point in arguing this any more since we're going in circles, but in case anyone wants to see what I'm referring to. Those tree trunks ^^^ were clearly not vaporized.

What we see instead is this mountain of smoke in the air, smoke that was not there at all before. Instead, it is smoke like you would expect after a large amount of vaporizing happens like that

No reason to believe that the clouds are superheated boiling vapor rather than just dust from Vader uprooting and blasting the forest away. Do you actually believe these characters are comfortably standing in boiling vapor?

Dirt, as far as I know, does not look like purple and white cloud, does it?

Actually, dust clouds do look like this:

You should not judge things based on inconsistent visuals when there is direct, out-of-the-universe confirmation of size of Kaiju in question. Even visually, it was dwarfing Sith citadel on Exegol, being many times larger than it, which is itself around 2 km km

The visuals are consistent in the comic itself. They consistently show the monster to be a hundred times smaller than what you claim. The source itself disagrees via both visuals and character statements, as someone else pointed out. If the author believed it was 7.4 km, he wouldn't have drawn it the size he did. All of your attempts at size scaling using different media across multiple still-shots from different authors is going to be way more inconsistent than the author showing the monster's size next to Vader multiple times.

Strength feat far above building level, keep in mind Vader casually overpowered same monster, but it is also speed feat, because Summa literally flew that same distance in seconds as well

Do you realize that things can be shown, rather than stated? It was shown that the ship was moving so fast that Vader was unable to use controls to alter course, which would surely not be case if it took longer than seconds

I doubt you can quantify that feat as "far above building level" without assuming unknown variables not given by the author.

Of course, you could show the monster dodging lightspeed attacks for example. Not hitting a ship into the orbit of a planet from an unknown distance and causing it to go into reentry. Not appearing on a planet after traveling from space over an unknown timeframe. You can't just make up numbers like this and expect people to accept them.

So do inquisitors, and many other characters, but it is not that that makes them more powerful than SSD

Ship of this sort can vaporize armies from space, and force choking or using telepathy is again, something any Inquisitor can do as well, that is not what makes them more powerful than SSD( they are not in fact)

Why not?

he did not say hole, he said he ripped side of it though

And? That doesn't change the fact that we see the "rip" in the destroyer's side. It wasn't big. You're claiming it was bigger than what was shown without evidence...

Because he made explosions with force, that is my point. he made explosions that destroyed this much of ship and that went through place shields are on, overcoming them as result

Once again, prove that Vader broke through the shields rather than bypassing them with the Force and causing the internal circuitry of the ship to combust.

Avatar image for number3561
Number3561

456

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@sunshinedobbs: Appreciate the context. Since you seem to know SW, where would you say Vader's physicals and TK sit at across most of his appearances (canon novels, comics, TV, movies, games)?

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@number3561:

The real issue is that the RT is full of dozens of feats putting him at a certain level of power across multiple media and probably dozens of creators (comics, novels, film, series, games). And it's actually pretty consistent when you compare the feats listed in that RT.

Even most of the feats you've listed here aren't out of the ordinary from what he's capable of on the high-end in that RT, although we clearly disagree on how impressive some of them are.

No, it is not. In that RT you bore me so much with, there are about 3 or 4 building-level feats and dozens of street-tier ones, so what is the consistency you speak about, what are those " dozens of feats putting him at a certain level of power"? No such thing exists, of course. Vader even at the time that thread was made had much better feats than that, but they did not show them, that RT missed a lot of stuff even at that time, never mind what come after, but to claim that " dozens of feats put him at certain level of power" is nonsense, pure and simple

I listed slamming down and overpowering a 7,5 k, monster, tearing the side of SSD, slamming large building-sized ship into the planet at MHS speeds and no selling explosion of it and vaporizing miles of forest, nothing of that sort was shown there. Hell they did not even mention him tanking Kyber crystal explosion in Rebels which would be one such feat

I'd agree that the RT was missing the forest feat, but one feat against dozens of other showings that he's been performing for years is again not going to be a huge game-changer just in terms of feat volume.

Again, do you realize that dozens of feats listed there are street-tier levels? Not building level, but like, wall level? That is because In any RT like that, most of the stuff posted tends to be lower-end stuff. No character has more higher-end stuff than lower-end stuff. Even someone like Goku, has much more lower end stuff than universal stuff, for example

By 2020, we've had 10-12 movies worth and many seasons of cartoons that give us a view of the overall power of Force users, and it's absolutely nowhere near island-country level.

First of all, movies and cartoons are specifically toned down,, compared to other mediums. In movies, Yoda literally struggled to lift 30 tons lol, compare that with stuff even someone like Cal has been doing in games and you can see that very easily. Not only that but Vader in fact does have island level feat in Rebels, when he tanked Kyber crystal explosion

Even most of Vader's non-LA appearances (comic, novel, and video game) listed in that RT are consistent with large building level.

I'm not just gonna ignore that because of one or two new comic feats; if we didn't take characters with long multi-author histories on average, you'd have crazy high-ends that absolutely don't match what characters are capable of in their day-to-day.

No they ar enot, they are wall to multi wall level, at best. Now they were done with ease, so they are consistent with large building level as mcuh as they are consistent with univerasl levle, in sense that they do not tell us anything aobut limit of how strong Vader is, as he effortlessly pulled them, but they really, really suggest nothing about large building level by themselves

Ignore what? Again, wall level stuff he has done with ease does not tell us anything about his overall limit, while high ends do. And it is one or two, I myself have listed much more than that, those high ends are what he can do in day to day, since him doing casually stuff weaker than that, again, does not tell us anything about his limit

PIS is itself a subjective assessment; people argue all the time over what counts. Getting a vague sense of a character's average is not the impossible ask you make it out to be, man.

Just look at the level Vader generally operates at across all media, identify if there are a couple outliers on either end, and you have his power level. The RT made a good case that overall he's sitting at large building level TK with lower physicals.

Oh but it is impossible, in mathematics you get average by dividing sum with parts that make up that sum, you can do nothing of that sort here, so in the end, talking about " average" is really meaningless as, at the end of the day, you will call average just wnat you wnat it to be, there is no mathemathical formula you can use to get average there, whatever that is

RT in question did not make good case for that , it listed maybe 3 or 4 feats you can maybe put there and dozens that are far bellow that. Hell, what is more I do not think that RT ever said it was trying to make such case. Instead it is you, who pre determeiend level you want him to be, and then picked and chose few feats( whch he did with ease) ignroed rest, and decided that. As you can see , it is all utterly arbitrary. That is why I say, let us not waste time with crap like" average" which does not mean anything. Rules clearly state characters operate at their best. As for PIS, while it is subjective to extent, I count there stuff that really contradict everything else, while stuff I am using for Vader does not, there are many such feats for Vader or people he scales above, hell even some Padwans could hold this enormous ship that is moving at Reentry speeds, which when you put into KE equation, you will get at least city level energy:

And yet you think that Vader is building level lol

We have no idea when in relation to the panel this was even said, as it clearly wasn't concurrent with the panel. If it was during the actual explosion, the doctor wouldn't have heard it. He'd have died from the impact.

Actually no, Doctor was mutated and turned into creature so strong it could have changed balance of war, so she would indeed have heared that, it was during explosion( second sentence):

We see the debris from the ship comparable to the explosion:

You mean those pieces? It is not comperable to explosion, explosion is clearly much larger but yea I agree that explosion was likely not island level in size, but as I siad, that does not affect feat, as it is very common for writers to ignore collateral dmage, it happens virtually all the time, in every verse

Here's the difference: no one's trying to calculate Namek's strength by using Superman's mass and speed from that gif, coming up with a KE calc, and using that to give him AP that's massively above what's shown in that moment. People would probably just scale him to his other feats, which is fine, and far different from you're doing with Vader here.

Yea because in that instance we do not have speed or large mass, but that was not my point. My point here was that collateral damage is not shown to be large, you cannot say that power of that impact( which knocked out Supes there) was weak, that is what I am saying. Fact that we do not scale KE there does not affect that. My point is that we can tell how strong that impact ( with Namek) was by looking at durability feats he has and fact that Namek overcame that with that slam, that is what lets us know how strong that slam was, now with Vader, we can tell power of impact by KE, by fact that we know mass and speed of ship, but in both of tose instances, fact that visual collateral damage does not reflect actual power of those impacts( though it is closer in Vaders case) does not mean that those impacts are weak as result. That is what I was saying, that we should not use visuals when we have better stuff to jduge power, like KE in Vaders case or Supermans duraiblity in case of Namek.

Again, no one's saying you can't use science to calculate a certain amount of damage done by an attack to the environment; that's not at issue here. But if you're going to calc the KE of a falling object using an assumed speed because scientifically "it would have a certain amount of force", you can't just ignore that "scientifically" we should expect at least relative collateral damage in that ballpark. You can't cling to science for accuracy and argue it should be discarded for narrative reasons in the very same feat.

We can calculate things other than just visual collateral damge to enviroment though. My point here is that we can use science to calculate what we can, but we must be aware that even in same feat there are things that will ignore science that we must accept. For example, take look at Diana blocking bullets here:

Loading Video...

Can we use science to calculate how fast is she moving? Sure, but we must also know that this scene ignores sciencwe as, while she moves at supersonic speed, she makes no sonic boom like it would happen in RL. so even in same feat, there will often be things we can calculate, and that we should, while others simply ignore science. So really there is nothing wrong with using KE to calculate what we can ,as we know size and can make reasonable estimate of speed, even though, as is almost always case, collateral damage does not match how strong impact really was

Reentry speeds can be in excess of 30 km/s for some comets merely due to Earth's pull/orbit; it's not the same as gravitational acceleration at ground level.

I am pretty sure that most of those comets move that fast in space as well, but gravity of earth pulls at speed of 9,8 meters per second and further you go from earth, weaker it gets, not stronger.

If the author actually believed the ship had island-busting levels of force, he'd have shown it.Not a building-sized explosion that we see Vader immediately step out of on the very next panel. My biggest problem with this selective application of science is the blatant ignoring of author's intent.

That is like saying if author thought slam from Namek that knocked out Superman was above street level , he would have shown it. Author showed us that it was island level due to speed and mass it had, but he did not have to show collateral damage that matches that to show that it was island level, when he already gave us that does that, just like in case of Namek, he already gave durability feats to Superman to show that there

Slective aplication of sciience is something that we must do in every verse, as all of them often ignore science in many parts, so we can only apply it where we can, and that does not ignore intent from author, if author said that he did not think it was that strong, than that would be one thing, but he did not, instead he gave us KE that backs it up

The tiny dirt patches in that scan are not the same as the tree trunks and branches that are clearly outlined and literally stacked higher above the ground here (also the mostly intact trunks we see lying in front of the girl after their supposed "vaporization"):

No point in arguing this any more since we're going in circles, but in case anyone wants to see what I'm referring to. Those tree trunks ^^^ were clearly not vaporized.

Which tree trunks? You mean few in front of Sabe where she is laying? Yea I never said those were, I was talking about most of forest itself. In picture with Vader, what we see behind him looks like stone( since, recall that hills were also gone?) and dirt pathes like in picture above. In fact tell me this, if thoise were trees, how come forest, which was equally spread on all sides, is gone, and yet only what you say are trees are all located in one single direction? Not only that, but what is that smoke then? We see mounain of white and purple smoke, which matches with it being vapor, but if there was no vaporizing, then it would not make sense for smoke to be there, as that smoke is not dirt

No reason to believe that the clouds are superheated boiling vapor rather than just dust from Vader uprooting and blasting the forest away. Do you actually believe these characters are comfortably standing in boiling vapor?

Not boiling, it was not boiling, it was just smoke. As I said, I never saw dust being purple and white like smoke like that

Actually, dust clouds do look like this:

In those first 2 instances yes, because Vaders power were causing destruction around, like storm( that is what it was compared to), hence why he said to her to come close, as it is safest in the eye of storm, but look at it here:

No Caption Provided

I am pretty sure dust does not look like white cloud

The visuals are consistent in the comic itself. They consistently show the monster to be a hundred times smaller than what you claim.

They do not though, as I siad, they show monster to be many times larger than Sith Citidel which was 2 km big

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

That is not only one either, take look at this:

No Caption Provided

See these tiny explosions, some which are no larger than speck of dust that you can barely even see? Each one of those is TIE fighter exploding, with explosion being larger than ship itself( which is 8 meters big) so even smallest of those explosions, which are many hundreds of times smaller than summa itself, are larger than 8 meters. Which is also consistent with confirmed height of Summas

The source itself disagrees via both visuals and character statements, as someone else pointed out.

If the author believed it was 7.4 km, he wouldn't have drawn it the size he did. All of your attempts at size scaling using different media across multiple still-shots from different authors is going to be way more inconsistent than the author showing the monster's size next to Vader multiple times.

So no, it does not disagree with visuals, it does with some, but again, visuals are often inconsistent , just take look at MCU Surtur, and character who said that, as I pointed out, was idiot and comedic relief, he is not reliable, when we have out of universe sources stating otherwise

This makes no sense.. Ragnarok film makers said Surtur was, at his lowest 800 meters tall and at his highest 4 km tal and yet when Hulk jumped at him, he looked nowhere near either of those

Does that mean that writers did not think that Surtur is that tall because they draw him smaller in one moment? No, it is simply case of inconsistent visuals. Fact is, we have actual confiramtion of how tall Summa is byo ut of universe source and we have visuals that also match that even in that comic,fact that some of them do not, does not really negate that, that is pretty common stuff

A

I doubt you can quantify that feat as "far above building level" without assuming unknown variables not given by the author.

Of course, you could show the monster dodging lightspeed attacks for example. Not hitting a ship into the orbit of a planet from an unknown distance and causing it to go into reentry. Not appearing on a planet after traveling from space over an unknown timeframe. You can't just make up numbers like this and expect people to accept them.

So you think punching ship from deep space to planet is not above building level, really? lol. Again, author gave us literally everything here, he does not need to say something when he instead shows it to us

Distance is not unkown, we literally saw it, it was more than planets diamter away:

No Caption Provided

It crossed that distance in seconds, to fast to even change its course. So we have all variables we need here, nobody made them up, we are just going by what we are shown. We have distance and time frame. As I poined out above, graivty pulls at speed of 9,8 meters per second, so that had nothing to do with this either

Why not?

Becaue this scan itself states that whiel Vader is most powerful weapon, Super Star Destroyer is second most powerful weapon, yet by your logic, of what makes him more powerful, Inquisitors, who can do all of that( choke, read minds etc) would be second most powerful weapon, not ship

And? That doesn't change the fact that we see the "rip" in the destroyer's side. It wasn't big. You're claiming it was bigger than what was shown without evidence...

They did not say that he made rip in side though , but that he ripped side of Star Destroyer. If I make rip in side of Skycraper with hammer, would you say that I ripped side of Skyscraper itself open? Of course not, I just made small hole in it, to actually rip side of Skycraper I would need to make rip much larger than that, one that is not much smaller than side of Skycraper itself

Once again, prove that Vader broke through the shields rather than bypassing them with the Force and causing the internal circuitry of the ship to combust.

Proof is very clear here actually, it is fact that explosions he made literally went/broke through place shields are located on, that would not be possible if they did not break through shields, otherwise shields would block them from expending there. Vader did not also cause any" internal circuitry of ship to combust" lol, those were all inside, what he did was make explosions with his Tk that destroyed shielded hull

Avatar image for number3561
Number3561

456

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#48  Edited By Number3561

@eredin12:

No, it is not. In that RT you bore me so much with, there are about 3 or 4 building-level feats and dozens of street-tier ones, so what is the consistency you speak about, what are those " dozens of feats putting him at a certain level of power"? No such thing exists, of course. Vader even at the time that thread was made had much better feats than that, but they did not show them, that RT missed a lot of stuff even at that time, never mind what come after, but to claim that " dozens of feats put him at certain level of power" is nonsense, pure and simple

If you're bored, ignore it. I find it a much better representation of Vader's general power level than one or two cherrypicked comic feats that you then go on to wank. Many of the street-tier feats are Vader's feats when he's not using TK, because he's consistently a high street tier outside of when he uses TK to lift large objects. You're being dishonest if you think there are only "3 or 4" building level feats in that RT. There are many more of those feats across TV, movies, games, novels, and comics than the nonexistent island-busting nonsense you're pushing.

I listed slamming down and overpowering a 7,5 k, monster, tearing the side of SSD, slamming large building-sized ship into the planet at MHS speeds and no selling explosion of it and vaporizing miles of forest, nothing of that sort was shown there. Hell they did not even mention him tanking Kyber crystal explosion in Rebels which would be one such feat

No you didn't, you showed him: slamming down a monster a hundred times smaller than 7.5 km, creating a hole in an SSD the size of a small building, slamming a ship assisted by reentry due to gravity over an unknown timeframe to create a building-sized explosion, fragmenting maybe a mile of forest (by far his best feat), and tanking an explosion that shattered a relatively small patch of earth.

Again, do you realize that dozens of feats listed there are street-tier levels? Not building level, but like, wall level? That is because In any RT like that, most of the stuff posted tends to be lower-end stuff. No character has more higher-end stuff than lower-end stuff. Even someone like Goku, has much more lower end stuff than universal stuff, for example

Of course, because Vader generally operates at street-building level and a littler higher at times with TK. And no, Vader's history isn't comparable to Goku, who's written by a single author showing constant progression from city to universal level with blatant feats and statements over years as he gets stronger. Vader is written by many authors across many media, where his power level maybe interpreted differently by different creators. That's why it's best to see where is power level most consistently sits at.

First of all, movies and cartoons are specifically toned down,, compared to other mediums. In movies, Yoda literally struggled to lift 30 tons lol, compare that with stuff even someone like Cal has been doing in games and you can see that very easily.

That doesn't mean they're "specifically toned down" just because you prefer a higher-end interpretation of these characters than some authors have. Old Yoda struggling to lift 30 tons isn't magically non-canon.

Ignore what? Again, wall level stuff he has done with ease does not tell us anything about his overall limit, while high ends do. And it is one or two, I myself have listed much more than that, those high ends are what he can do in day to day, since him doing casually stuff weaker than that, again, does not tell us anything about his limit

In that RT, you can find him putting in decent effort to perform some of these building level feats. if there was consensus on Vader being island or country level, he wouldn't consistently be portrayed dealing with street-building level threats like the Jedi he scales to during 95% of his appearances. You'd have creators having him lift islands or shatter countries with the Force, or at least have statements of such on a consistent basis.

Oh but it is impossible, in mathematics you get average by dividing sum with parts that make up that sum, you can do nothing of that sort here, so in the end, talking about " average" is really meaningless as, at the end of the day, you will call average just wnat you wnat it to be, there is no mathemathical formula you can use to get average there, whatever that is

Oh, stop. Nobody's talking about a mathematical, numerical average. I'm very clearly talking about the level he's portrayed at in most of his appearances. But if you're actually misunderstanding me and not just trolling with this, you can check a dictionary for the colloquial definitions of the word.

Hell, what is more I do not think that RT ever said it was trying to make such case. Instead it is you, who pre determeiend level you want him to be, and then picked and chose few feats( whch he did with ease) ignroed rest, and decided that. As you can see , it is all utterly arbitrary. That is why I say, let us not waste time with crap like" average" which does not mean anything. Rules clearly state characters operate at their best. As for PIS, while it is subjective to extent, I count there stuff that really contradict everything else, while stuff I am using for Vader does not, there are many such feats for Vader or people he scales above, hell even some Padwans could hold this enormous ship that is moving at Reentry speeds, which when you put into KE equation, you will get at least city level energy:

I didn't say the RT intended to make such a case. An RT isn't supposed to be biased like that. But the case was made nonetheless by the myriad of feats that were in it. No one can come away from that RT thinking that Vader is significantly weaker or stronger than street-building tier. A character operating at their best also doesn't mean outliers are included. I have no context for that Padawan feat to see how impressive it is. Am I also supposed to believe that Vader was weaker than a Padawan during the tsunami feat? Lmao.

Actually no, Doctor was mutated and turned into creature so strong it could have changed balance of war, so she would indeed have heared that, it was during explosion( second sentence):

Then can you show me the Doctor surviving that explosion? Also how exactly is anything supposed to be heard during an explosion?

You mean those pieces? It is not comperable to explosion, explosion is clearly much larger but yea I agree that explosion was likely not island level in size, but as I siad, that does not affect feat, as it is very common for writers to ignore collateral dmage, it happens virtually all the time, in every verse

Which is why you don't use low collateral damage moments as feats themselves, and instead scale to more impressive feats the character has performed. I'd argue it's also common for writers to use damage from collision as a better indicator for fans to see how impressive a feat is than expecting them to estimate KE, which authors routinely ignore, to determine it.

And it isn't "much larger." The fact that pieces of the ship can be seen so large at the forefront means the explosion's roughly the same size or slightly bigger.

Yea because in that instance we do not have speed or large mass, but that was not my point. My point here was that collateral damage is not shown to be large, you cannot say that power of that impact( which knocked out Supes there) was weak, that is what I am saying. Fact that we do not scale KE there does not affect that. My point is that we can tell how strong that impact ( with Namek) was by looking at durability feats he has and fact that Namek overcame that with that slam, that is what lets us know how strong that slam was, now with Vader, we can tell power of impact by KE, by fact that we know mass and speed of ship, but in both of tose instances, fact that visual collateral damage does not reflect actual power of those impacts( though it is closer in Vaders case) does not mean that those impacts are weak as result. That is what I was saying, that we should not use visuals when we have better stuff to jduge power, like KE in Vaders case or Supermans duraiblity in case of Namek.

You could estimate speed and mass far better in that gif than you can in the Vader feat. Scaling Namek to his own other feats is not the same as weirdly prioritizing KE with unknown variables over actual damage done in the very same feat. One uses actual damage displayed by the author at another point in time and uses that to assess a character's strength, and the other ignores actual damage done in favor of a potentially highly inaccurate calc.

Can we use science to calculate how fast is she moving? Sure, but we must also know that this scene ignores sciencwe as, while she moves at supersonic speed, she makes no sonic boom like it would happen in RL. so even in same feat, there will often be things we can calculate, and that we should, while others simply ignore science. So really there is nothing wrong with using KE to calculate what we can ,as we know size and can make reasonable estimate of speed, even though, as is almost always case, collateral damage does not match how strong impact really was

You don't even need science there; the director clearly has her moving relative to bullets, so that's her speed for the feat. You have no evidence that the author of the Vader comic "ignored science" by deliberately making the explosion tens of thousands of times smaller than the island-busting power the author apparently meant to convey. Because he could've just as easily been "ignoring science" by having a building level explosion be the level of power he meant to convey, while ignoring KE.

I am pretty sure that most of those comets move that fast in space as well, but gravity of earth pulls at speed of 9,8 meters per second and further you go from earth, weaker it gets, not stronger.

Even something sitting in orbit can be pulled by the Earth's gravity to beyond hypersonic speeds during atmospheric reentry from what I'm reading.

That is like saying if author thought slam from Namek that knocked out Superman was above street level , he would have shown it. Author showed us that it was island level due to speed and mass it had, but he did not have to show collateral damage that matches that to show that it was island level, when he already gave us that does that, just like in case of Namek, he already gave durability feats to Superman to show that there

He did show it. By having Namek or his opponent perform better feats that did show damage of that level, which Namek now scales to. Once again, not the same as prioritizing KE using fan-made numbers over inarguable damage shown by the author in the exact same feat in order to make it thousands of times stronger.

Which tree trunks? You mean few in front of Sabe where she is laying? Yea I never said those were, I was talking about most of forest itself.

I'm not really interested in arguing this point any longer, as the fragmented trees are clearly shown multiple times on panel, both in front of Vader and next to the girl, with zero evidence of vaporization besides literal dust clouds.

Not boiling, it was not boiling, it was just smoke. As I said, I never saw dust being purple and white like smoke like that

Do you know what vaporization means? It means that the solid compounds in the tree were taken to their boiling point and turned to gas/vapor at extreme temperatures. So yes, for this to be vaporization these character would have to be casually standing in boiling superheated gas with no protection.

In those first 2 instances yes, because Vaders power were causing destruction around, like storm( that is what it was compared to), hence why he said to her to come close, as it is safest in the eye of storm, but look at it here:

Vader isn't shown raising brown dust at all in that scan. What's funnier is that when the girl hits the ground, we see white clouds appear, clearly showing dust being thrown into the air, despite being white. But I suppose you think her body vaporized the rock on impact too lol.

They do not though, as I siad, they show monster to be many times larger than Sith Citidel which was 2 km big

Frankly, I'm done arguing this point as well. Vader is clearly shown standing next to the monster more than once, and it didn't look remotely close to 7.4 km. Trying to scale the comic to a completely separate TV still that's not even in the medium itself is not more convincing than that.

See these tiny explosions, some which are no larger than speck of dust that you can barely even see? Each one of those is TIE fighter exploding, with explosion being larger than ship itself( which is 8 meters big) so even smallest of those explosions, which are many hundreds of times smaller than summa itself, are larger than 8 meters. Which is also consistent with confirmed height of Summas

Again, a far more inaccurate attempt at scaling when we can literally see Vader standing next to the monster multiple times at the time the feat was performed, rather than attempting to use a TV shot or another panel.

character who said that, as I pointed out, was idiot and comedic relief, he is not reliable, when we have out of universe sources stating otherwise

If the character was wrong, the author would've made that clear rather than showing visuals that back him up. Also, what even is the joke here? The character said it's 200m when it's bigger? How is it more reasonable for me to believe that this is the author's attempt at humor rather than the author giving narration through a character.

It crossed that distance in seconds, to fast to even change its course. So we have all variables we need here, nobody made them up, we are just going by what we are shown. We have distance and time frame. As I poined out above, graivty pulls at speed of 9,8 meters per second, so that had nothing to do with this either

The ship may have been damaged or moving too chaotically to change course, and you have no timeframe for this feat yet again. I don't know why you keep bringing up 9.8m/s as if atmospheric reentry doesn't take objects to two-digit Mach speeds.

Becaue this scan itself states that whiel Vader is most powerful weapon, Super Star Destroyer is second most powerful weapon, yet by your logic, of what makes him more powerful, Inquisitors, who can do all of that( choke, read minds etc) would be second most powerful weapon, not ship

Because Vader can do those things and more, and much better, to the point of being an overall more powerful weapon than the SSD.

They did not say that he made rip in side though , but that he ripped side of Star Destroyer. If I make rip in side of Skycraper with hammer, would you say that I ripped side of Skyscraper itself open? Of course not, I just made small hole in it, to actually rip side of Skycraper I would need to make rip much larger than that, one that is not much smaller than side of Skycraper itself

Nope. There's literally nothing wrong with seeing someone tear a building-sized hole in the side of a ship and saying "He ripped open the side of his ship!" This assumption that the hole would have to encompass half the ship to utter these words is baseless.

Proof is very clear here actually, it is fact that explosions he made literally went/broke through place shields are located on, that would not be possible if they did not break through shields, otherwise shields would block them from expending there. Vader did not also cause any" internal circuitry of ship to combust" lol, those were all inside, what he did was make explosions with his Tk that destroyed shielded hull

Nowhere do we see the actual shields being targeted and overpowered. What we see is Vader targeting the hull with the Force, a power that shields don't block, and causing explosions which could easily be from the circuitry feeding the ship's shields and weapons.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@number3561:

If you're bored, ignore it. I find it a much better representation of Vader's general power level than one or two cherrypicked comic feats that you then go on to wank.

Many of the street-tier feats are Vader's feats when he's not using TK, because he's consistently a high street tier outside of when he uses TK to lift large objects. You're being dishonest if you think there are only "3 or 4" building level feats in that RT. There are many more of those feats across TV, movies, games, novels, and comics than the nonexistent island-busting nonsense you're pushing.

Again, it is not one or two, I myself posted 4 feats on the level I put him at and I posted feats for much weaker characters that Vader scales above that are also far above the level you seem to think that thread put him at even though it never even tired t do that.

There are only 3 or 4 building-level feats in that thread though, when i say that most are street tier, I mean most TK ones included. Though Vader himself is not high street tier outside of TK, he has far better feats than that, but that does not matter for your point, as even most of those TK feats there were street tier ones I am talking about feats in RT, when it comes to " many feats across TV, games, novels, and comics" many are far above building level nonsense you arbitrary chose and keep pushing. I also did not say that Vader busted the island, but that he has island and country-level feats, which is not the same thing

No you didn't, you showed him: slamming down a monster a hundred times smaller than 7.5 km,

creating a hole in an SSD the size of a small building,

slamming a ship assisted by reentry due to gravity over an unknown timeframe to create a building-sized explosion, fragmenting maybe a mile of forest (by far his best feat), and tanking an explosion that shattered a relatively small patch of earth.

So you think the monster is actually 75 meters, the number you pulled out of your ass, and because you pulled it out of your ass, we should all just ignore the actual canonical height of the creature? Not how it works buddy, the height of Summas is given to us by out of the universe, canonical, source 7,432 meters(24,383 feet)[2] ,

First of all, the size of the hole is not the point of the feat, the point is the durability of the ship in question that he overcame, you keep thinking that SSD is as durable as building, which is of course utterly idiotic, we have seen that capital ships can tank shots from each other without suffering nearly as much damage. Hell, even a small ship without any shields in this same run tanked hit from Summa that sent it flying from deep space to the surface in seconds. And building-sized crater in it is the only one that we saw, we did not see the entire crater as well, other sources mention larger destruction.

Cut this unscientific crap, gravity pulls at a speed of 9,8 meters per second and we have an actual time frame, it literally took place in the spam of a single short sentence, size of collateral damage does not matter there at all when we have much more reliable source to judge its power, itis kinetic energy.

Of course, because Vader generally operates at street-building level and a littler higher at times with TK.

And no, Vader's history isn't comparable to Goku, who's written by a single author showing constant progression from city to universal level with blatant feats and statements over years as he gets stronger. Vader is written by many authors across many media, where his power level maybe interpreted differently by different creators. That's why it's best to see where is power level most consistently sits at.

. First, when I said this, I meant with Tk, as we are discussing TK feats.

Second, just because most of his feats, like with any character, are not high ends, does not mean that he" generally operates" in that range, if all of those things are something he did with absolute ease with no effort. The fact that he did those things with ease does not tell us anything about his limit, his high ends do that And no, the fact that Vader has many writers does not mean anything, they all have supervision and guidelines they must follow to keep things reasonably consistent, they look at each other work and follow established things, mostly. And finally, as I pointed out, when you talk about" on average", you are just pulling stuff out of your ass, there is absolutely no way to quantify average objectively or what it even means and the rules of this site do not ask us to try to find some imaginary average, whatever that is, but instead, they say characters operate at their best

That doesn't mean they're "specifically toned down" just because you prefer a higher-end interpretation of these characters than some authors have. Old Yoda struggling to lift 30 tons isn't magically non-canon.

First of all, that is not old Yoda, I mean it is, as he ways always old when we see him, but it was prequel Yoda, who in other mediums, was able to lift highly force-resistant mountain:

So while, no, him struggling with 30 tons is not non-canon, it is PIS, it comes from the medium where everything is toned down compared to other mediums.

In that RT, you can find him putting in decent effort to perform some of these building level feats.

if there was consensus on Vader being island or country level, he wouldn't consistently be portrayed dealing with street-building level threats like the Jedi he scales to during 95% of his appearances. You'd have creators having him lift islands or shatter countries with the Force, or at least have statements of such on a consistent basis.

Which ones? I do not recall that at all with most of them, most were done with ease( again, unless you mean Vader right after ROTS, whom we both agreed to ignore, as he grew a lot stronger later)

He does not consistently deal with street-building-level threats. Summa is not the street-building level threat, and neither is Ender, Ender literally made a highly advanced civilization with spaceships, meaning one more advanced than us, powerless in front of him, and even we would obliterate street-building level threat, and yet Vader stomped Ender. Speaking about lifting the island, High Republic Jedi Master Elzar Mann did just that, and used the island to destroy Nihil armada, and he is weaker than Yoda, never mind Prime Vader:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Vader indeed has such feats and scaling reasonably consistently, he is confirmed as more powerful than Super Star Destroyer, he tore through it even though it can tank shots from other capital ships proving that, he slammed down 7,5 km tall Summa etc. As I said, even some fodder Jedi held the mountain-sized debris moving at Reentry speed lol:

Oh, stop. Nobody's talking about a mathematical, numerical average. I'm very clearly talking about the level he's portrayed at in most of his appearances. But if you're actually misunderstanding me and not just trolling with this, you can check a dictionary for the colloquial definitions of the word.

I know what you are trying to say( I was trolling for a bit, and could not resist lol) , the problem is that it was little more than what you made up and decided he is portrayed as, even though pretty much all building level feats he has are done with utter ease, like this, where he basically telekinetically one taps Skyscraper:

No Caption Provided

And both he and many people much weaker than him have feats far above building level, even fodder like Kanan, was able to throw 2 building-sized asteroids at speeds faster than spaceships racing at full speed, which even low-end calcs put at town level:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Lina_Shields/STAR_WARS_REBELS:_Kanan_and_Ezra_throw_some_asteroids

And I could keep posting such feats for people much weaker than Vader for an entire page and yet you somehow convinced yourself he is street-building level lol

I didn't say the RT intended to make such a case. An RT isn't supposed to be biased like that. But the case was made nonetheless by the myriad of feats that were in it.

No one can come away from that RT thinking that Vader is significantly weaker or stronger than street-building tier. A character operating at their best also doesn't mean outliers are included. I have no context for that Padawan feat to see how impressive it is. Am I also supposed to believe that Vader was weaker than a Padawan during the tsunami feat? Lmao.

Do you mean 3-4 building-level feats and the rest much lower? No, it was not, you made that up yourself

I agree, but that is because that RT did not include a lot of feats even at the time, never mind what came later, so from now on, use this one XD

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/disney-canon-vader-respect-thread-2311743/

As for Padwan, it is just very strong Padwan holding that. Now yea, in-universe, Vader was not supposed to be weaker than Padwan during that tsunami but that is why I say it is low showing, if you have people like that Padwan, Kanan, random Jedi Master, Cal etc, all have feats far above that, then it is easy to see what is actual low showing, what is actual outlier

Then can you show me the Doctor surviving that explosion? Also how exactly is anything supposed to be heard during an explosion?

well not yet, because the story cut from that point on, it cut after a clash with Vader finishing his speech, maybe when the next issue comes I can, , but no until then. Super hearing? I mean man, we both know such stuff in fiction often takes place,, just take look at Superman

Which is why you don't use low collateral damage moments as feats themselves, and instead scale to more impressive feats the character has performed.

I'd argue it's also common for writers to use damage from collision as a better indicator for fans to see how impressive a feat is than expecting them to estimate KE, which authors routinely ignore, to determine it.

I agree and I am not using collateral damage feats for themselves, I am using KE. Let me give you an analogy, if MCU Thanos punches Thor and nearly kills him( like he did in Endgame) and yet only destroys stone, then clearly I am not going to use him busting stone as a feat, I will use him nearly killing Thor, busting stone is just collateral damage, you are absolutely right, but at the same time, I am not going to look at that and say" Thanos knocking out Thor is weak as it only destroyed stone, if it was strong, lot more collateral damage would be shown" which you have been basically saying. I am not using collateral damage, I am using KE, I am simply saying we should not dismiss those feats(KE for Vader, or Thanos nearly killing Thor) on the basis of low collateral damage which gets ignored all the time

You did not ask this writer that did you? My point is that, unless we ask the writer that, we should not speculate what he might think but instead use science to quantify what we can.

You could estimate speed and mass far better in that gif than you can in the Vader feat.

Scaling Namek to his own other feats is not the same as weirdly prioritizing KE with unknown variables over actual damage done in the very same feat. One uses actual damage displayed by the author at another point in time and uses that to assess a character's strength, and the other ignores actual damage done in favor of a potentially highly inaccurate calc.

No? I mean mass yes, because we have exact confirmation of how massive Clark is, 110 kg irrc, but speed no, with Vader we have distance traveled and time frame,e with Namek we have nothing of such, I mean we could go with visuals and say it looks peak human speed wise, but that is all

Again, there are no unknown variables, we have both size and time frame to get a solid estimate of speed, and using science to quantify what we can(KE) is not weird. I am simply ignoring visuals because writers themselves do that in every verse, visuals come last when we have something better, like KE we can actually calculate well in Vaders case

You don't even need science there; the director clearly has her moving relative to bullets, so that's her speed for the feat.

You have no evidence that the author of the Vader comic "ignored science" by deliberately making the explosion tens of thousands of times smaller than the island-busting power the author apparently meant to convey. Because he could've just as easily been "ignoring science" by having a building level explosion be the level of power he meant to convey, while ignoring KE.

And how fast do those bullets move? How do you know that? After all, neither they nor Diana made a sonic boom, and going by science, they had to if they were moving at supersonic speed. that is what I am saying, we must ignore science in same aspects even within that same feat

This logic does not work really, for several reasons. First, your only indication for that would be lacking visuals, which happens all the time, in every verse, there are infinitely more examples of that then of writers ignoring KE. Second, we have seen how durable ships in SW are consistently, they are not going to be destroyed by building-level power lol, especially not large ships. Again, even much smaller ones have tanked Reentry impact. Hence how we know that my point, that they, like writer in every other verse, ignored collateral damage, is true

Even something sitting in orbit can be pulled by the Earth's gravity to beyond hypersonic speeds during atmospheric reentry from what I'm reading.

Anything that is in orbit, that stays in orbit must by itself move that fast, or otherwise, it would not stay in orbit

He did show it. By having Namek or his opponent perform better feats that did show damage of that level, which Namek now scales to. Once again, not the same as prioritizing KE using fan-made numbers over inarguable damage shown by the author in the exact same feat in order to make it thousands of times stronger.

Those are not fan-made numbers, those are numbers the author gave us by what he showed us. We can't know in millimeters of course but we can make reasonable estimates, and In fact, I was trying to be conservative for that reason. But yes, KE should always be prioritized over collateral damage and in this case, it is also not just KE, but durability feats ships in SW have shown backing it as well

I'm not really interested in arguing this point any longer, as the fragmented trees are clearly shown multiple times on panel, both in front of Vader and next to the girl, with zero evidence of vaporization besides literal dust clouds.

I addressed that several times, dust cloud are not white and purple, and all we saw there were few tree pieces, most were gone. But agree to disagree

Do you know what vaporization means? It means that the solid compounds in the tree were taken to their boiling point and turned to gas/vapor at extreme temperatures. So yes, for this to be vaporization these character would have to be casually standing in boiling superheated gas with no protection.

That is if it was done with heat, but it as not, Vader used TK wave, not heat. Smole itself trees got turned into was not really much hot and further more, it was away from Sabe, she was not in it

Vader isn't shown raising brown dust at all in that scan.

What's funnier is that when the girl hits the ground, we see white clouds appear, clearly showing dust being thrown into the air, despite being white. But I suppose you think her body vaporized the rock on impact too lol.

He was not trying to do so, but the entire point of the story is that his power are out of control and acting on random, without him even gesturing or anything, they are acting on their own entirely.

No?We clearly see that before Sabe ever hit the ground, the huge cloud was already in air even as she was flying(third image) and when he actually does hit ground you see that huge white cloud was not where she is( which would be case if it was dust she lifted wit her fall) but far away from her( fourth picture)

No Caption Provided

What I actually find funny, tbh, is how you seem to think that Sabe lifted a mountain of dust by falling few meters away and yet not only is that" dust" white smoke, but it is not even near the place where she fell lamo

Frankly, I'm done arguing this point as well. Vader is clearly shown standing next to the monster more than once, and it didn't look remotely close to 7.4 km.

True. This is true. And Hulk is shown to bear near Surutr, and Surtur did not look nearly 800-4 km:

So let me ask, should we then, as a result, ignore out-of-universe sources for how tall Surtur was over usual inconsistent visuals nad instead argue that Surtur was 70 meters tall? Well per your logic yes, that is what you have been doing, but that is just ridiculous, out of universe sources matter much more than some visuals, especially when there are also visuals at other points, relative to some other things, matching out of universe sources as well

Trying to scale the comic to a completely separate TV still that's not even in the medium itself is not more convincing than that.

You do realize that comics and TV are the same verse, the same canon? One being TV and other comic changes nothing Hell, even in this same very much, that Citadel is shown to be so big that you could not even see Sidious on it even though he was literally standing at the top:

No Caption Provided

And it is not just one shot, several of them show this, that it was so tall that Sidious could not be seen on it. Is that convincing enough for you?

Again, a far more inaccurate attempt at scaling when we can literally see Vader standing next to the monster multiple times at the time the feat was performed, rather than attempting to use a TV shot or another panel.

We can literally see Vader standing next to it, yes, and we can also literally see those TIE fighters next to it, which is exactly my point. What I am saying is that visuals are very inconsistent, even in this same story, so let us not use them when we have far more reliable out-of-universe confirmation lol. My issue is that you want us to ignore out-of-universe confirmation, as well as visuals that agree with it( which as you can see, some very much do) all in favor of some that show things looking smaller. This really does not make sense, it would also make Surtur very small and basically every other large character too. Visuals are the lowest type of evidence when we have something better, we should always go for it, like out of universe confirmation here

If the character was wrong, the author would've made that clear rather than showing visuals that back him up.

Also, what even is the joke here? The character said it's 200m when it's bigger. How is it more reasonable for me to believe that this is the author's attempt at humor rather than the author giving narration through a character.

Mhhm, that author also showed visuals that debunk him, Again, visuals are inconsistent, out of universe source is far more reliable

Because the character of Ochi is used for humor throughout the entire arc, basically often verses have comedic relief, here it is Ochi. What I am saying is that what Ochi says is not more reliable than out of universe sources

The ship may have been damaged or moving too chaotically to change course, and you have no timeframe for this feat yet again.

I don't know why you keep bringing up 9.8m/s as if atmospheric reentry doesn't take objects to two-digit Mach speeds.

We saw no visible damage on it, and you can change course easily as long as it is not damaged, no matter how it is moving. The fact that Summa hit it fast enough that they were unable to change course, very much gives us a time frame.

Objects need to be fast enough to make Reentry, gravity is not what pushes them that far

Because Vader can do those things and more, and much better, to the point of being an overall more powerful weapon than the SSD.

Again, Inquisitors can do all of that, and yet they are not nearly as powerful weapons. Because just because they can do things ship cannot, does not make them more powerful, fi ship can also do many things they cannot. To be more powerful, they would also need to be able to output more power than it

Nope. There's literally nothing wrong with seeing someone tear a building-sized hole in the side of a ship and saying "He ripped open the side of his ship!" This assumption that the hole would have to encompass half the ship to utter these words is baseless

That depends on the size of the ship though. Again, if I made a fist-sized hole in the side of Skycraper, would you say" Eredin ripped the side of Skycraper open!" ?

.

Nowhere do we see the actual shields being targeted and overpowered.

What we see is Vader targeting the hull with the Force, a power that shields don't block, which could easily be from the circuitry feeding the ship's shields and weapons.

Because actual shields are invisible, they pretty much always are. But we know where they are and we see explosions go through that place, something not possible without overcoming the shields that are there. Not exactly rocket science.

That is baseless, reactor is what feeds shields and Vader did not target that, he targeted shielded hull itself

Avatar image for revivedgod
RevivedGod

550

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Isn't Asthmaman planet level now or something? At least that's what i heard. Pervboy does have great physicals and speed feats and has the revenge counter so idk who takes it. Flip a coin.