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#51 Edited by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: Indeed. I've only ever seen a single statement say Vader is a worse duelist than Anakin, but tons and tons of quotes saying Vader is more powerful after getting the suit (not immediately but eventually).

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#52 Posted by KillBilly (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: Fightsaber was published in Insider #62, Oct 2002.

  1. Insider mag at that time was C canon.
  2. The novelization of ROTJ states that Vader was more powerful than he'd ever been. At the time, it was G canon.'

The mag article statement about Vader contradicted G canon and was therefore NONCANON.

The ESB quote doesn't contradict the RotJ quote. It states that, as of ESB, he's at the height of his powers. That doesn't preclude him from becoming more powerful at some point in the future.

It's like Vitiate's quote of being the most powerful Force user in galactic history up to his point in time. Or Marka Ragnos being the most powerful of the most powerful. Or Exar Kun being the most powerful. They're not contradictory, they're just talking about a specific point in time.

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#53 Edited by KillBilly (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: 3. Hildago and/or Gilroy and/or Filoni (two of them for sure) have stated that character opinions are opinions and not necessarily fact.

I never claimed it was fact.

4. AND OMG BACK TO BARLOW? SERIOUSLY? I can't even type all the lolz here.

A. Barlow gave an opinion.

I'm aware it was an opinion. I addressed this in my response to sithmaster.

E. Books that were and are canon contradict Barlow's opinion and Kenobi's in-universe opinion.

Quote? Because, as I established, Kenobi's opinion is that Dooku is a superior combatant to Maul.

F. If we were to take Barlow seriously, then we can easily say that his quote contradicts canon and is therefore NONCANON.

Again, I'd need to see evidence of that for myself.

G. It seems that no matter how we read what Barlow says, it is NONCANON. He even contradicted himself by saying Maul > Dooku in combat more times than not.

Power in the Force and overall combative capability are not necessarily the same so it's not contradictory.

Resurrected Maul is just that: Maul brought back from the dead. At the time of SWT #9 publication, Oct 2001, Maul was dead. The story is referencing TPM Maul. It is the actual Maul, brought back from the dead, hence the title, "Resurrection."

I'm going to need to see proof of that considering both Chee and the acolytes in universe seem to think differently.

The comic does say "create" and "mold" but then the acolytes go on to say "resurrect."

The use of a word need not be take literally. Especially when it's implied/stated that a literal interpretation would be incorrect.

If they did create and mold him, then they made him identical to Maul

Gonna need some evidence for this claim.

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#54 Posted by KillBilly (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: Are you kidding me? It says that both combatants are a shadow of their former selves.

Yes. I already stated this.

It's referring to combat and even calling them combatants...

Where does it say it's referring to combat when it calls them "a shadow of their former selves?"

how in this world are you telling me it's not referring to combat?

The fact that Vader is confirmed to be both more experienced and more powerful and that Vader reworked his suit to rid it of its initial limitations.

Anakin > Vader is in no way contradicted by canon and is supported by it. Vader > Anakin? Lal.

I don't really know what to say you to here since you've clearly had a breakdown and are now attempting to deny reality. I guess I'll just keep quoting you canonical fact until you realize the error of your way.

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.

--Insider 62

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

-- Return Of The Jedi

As for the underlined, I'd advise you to not going around throwing rocks at other people's houses if your own house has very fragile glass windows.

I honestly have no idea what you're referring to here. I assume it's more gibberish.

Height of his suit powers. There's a clear distinction between Vader and Anakin Skywalker.

They're literally the same person... You've really lost, it haven't you?

So in Episode IV he's a mere shadow of Mustafar Vader who in turn is vastly below Peak Anakin to being Peak Anakin's visible superior in three years?

No, not at all. Despite your strange attempts to warp canonical fact to your world view.

When the growth between ANH and ESB isn't supposed to be special compared to other three year periods? Lmao.

Lmao indeed my friend. You're clearly cracked.

We must have some sort of a telepathic link, because, believe it or not, I was about to say the exact same thing to you.

Then you were probably already aware of this but... That doesn't surprise me.

Repeating your debunked arguments is useless. Take it as a friendly tip, just so that you don't waste your time.

"debunked"

I hope for your sake that you're not referring to your claim that Anakin and Vader were separate people... Because that's about the farthest thing away from a debunk I can possibly imagine.

He stalemated Kenobi in a telekinetic contest. You know, the Dooku-stomper who has hype placing him relatively close to Yoda and Sidious. Something tells me he wasn't capable of using his powers to the fullest...

I don't disagree with anything you just said. That still doesn't mean his power decreased. As you yourself noted, it simply means that he wasn't capable of using the power he had at the time to the fullest.

Fightsaber explicitly states that Vader is a mere shadow of Mustafar Vader which pretty much paints a big disparity between them. But go on, keep on saying Vader is better.

Or it could simply be referencing his decreased mobility and potential. But go ahead thinking your interpretation is the only possible one.

The canonical source Fightsaber doesn't seem to agree with your "logic."

Doesn't seem to address it at all from what I can see.

That was TCW Maul who has clearly grown more powerful. Yeah. TPM Maul=Sith Hunters Maul<TCW/SoD Maul. Try again.

After Talzin restored Maul's sanity, he clearly regained a sense of "purpose" since he immediately began to work towards carrying out his goals. I don't see why Savage noting his growth in power precludes Maul from growing prior to that point.

I'm noticing a pattern: canonical sources disagreeing with your claims.

Weird. I'm noticing the same with you...

Unless the growth was astronomical- which in 12 months at the very best I doubt- he couldn't have gone from being a ragdoll to a Maul that wasn't even trying to kill him to being more powerful than Maul.

Well, he went from being casually dealt with a Dooku who wasn't going all out in AotC to posing a threat to him on his own. Pretty sure around a year of growth would be rather significant. Though note, I never claimed he surpassed Maul in this timespan.

Yeah, rival is too generous a word.

Couldn't agree more.

Sith Hunters Maul is on the level of TPM Maul

Above the level of TPM Maul*

and he dominated late TCW Kenobi who's only 1 year away from RotS. Obviously he grew but it's also pretty obvious that he didn't grow to an extent where he was Maul's rag doll to Maul not even rivaling him.

I never claimed prime Maul didn't rival Kenobi. I claimed TPM Maul, a vastly inferior version, didn't.

How long are you going to disregard a canon source just because it doesn't help your case? How long are you going to do that and accept the ones that do favor you?

Uh, never. Lol. I'm not you.

You'd actually have a point if Vader did use the Force offensively on Ben.

Lucas seemed to believe the reason Vader did not because Ben was similar powerful to him.

"The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably as strong as Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two." - Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays.

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#55 Posted by Richard96 (5723 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

“Maul is not weak link. He and Dooku combined are, but only because Vader + SK is a formidable duo. However, they might just maybe have an edge with sabers with Maul. Dooku loses to Vader. Maul v SK in only sabers would be an incredible duel, but Maul would win. We agree on something yet again. =)”

As force user, maul is the weak link. He is the weakest here. Vader or SK would abuse the force and beat him.

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#56 Posted by dark-sith123 (5024 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

The novel, just like Beware the Sith for ESB, is clearly referring to Suit Vader, lol. Anakin and Vader are seen as different people- especially so by Vader himself.

As for Kenobi's statement on Luke being the Chosen One, you mustn't be too harsh on Obi-Wan. Remember, Vader had turned to the Dark and become a mass murderer, so the chances of him being the Chosen One were beyond slim.

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#57 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@redheathen:

“Maul is not weak link. He and Dooku combined are, but only because Vader + SK is a formidable duo. However, they might just maybe have an edge with sabers with Maul. Dooku loses to Vader. Maul v SK in only sabers would be an incredible duel, but Maul would win. We agree on something yet again. =)”

As force user, maul is the weak link. He is the weakest here. Vader or SK would abuse the force and beat him.

I disagree on an individual (character) basis and see them as being close, and as a team, they are weaker than Vader/SK. I rely on what's published, so I place Maul > Dooku, but that is Legends. I'm not sure if you are using canon or not, but if you are, what is in canon that places Dooku > Maul using the Force?

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#58 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@redheathen:

“Maul is not weak link. He and Dooku combined are, but only because Vader + SK is a formidable duo. However, they might just maybe have an edge with sabers with Maul. Dooku loses to Vader. Maul v SK in only sabers would be an incredible duel, but Maul would win. We agree on something yet again. =)”

As force user, maul is the weak link. He is the weakest here. Vader or SK would abuse the force and beat him.

I disagree on an individual (character) basis and see them as being close, and as a team, they are weaker than Vader/SK. I rely on what's published, so I place Maul > Dooku, but that is Legends. I'm not sure if you are using canon or not, but if you are, what is in canon that places Dooku > Maul using the Force?

Dooku has sources stating he's>TPM Maul as of AotC.

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#59 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly said:

@redheathen: Fightsaber was published in Insider #62, Oct 2002.

  1. Insider mag at that time was C canon.
  2. The novelization of ROTJ states that Vader was more powerful than he'd ever been. At the time, it was G canon.'

The mag article statement about Vader contradicted G canon and was therefore NONCANON.

The ESB quote doesn't contradict the RotJ quote. It states that, as of ESB, he's at the height of his powers. That doesn't preclude him from becoming more powerful at some point in the future.

It's like Vitiate's quote of being the most powerful Force user in galactic history up to his point in time. Or Marka Ragnos being the most powerful of the most powerful. Or Exar Kun being the most powerful. They're not contradictory, they're just talking about a specific point in time.

I agree with you on this and wasn't arguing otherwise. I was talking to @dark-sith123, but I did not remove your name what I grabbed the quote. Please accept my apologies for that.

I was replying to this:

@dark-sith123 said:

Fightsaber explicitly states that Vader is a shadow of his former self. It's referring to the last time Vader and Kenobi fought so Vader is considerably below Mustafar Vader, never mind Jedi Anakin or the Dooku-stomper Knightfall Vader.

I threw the computer out the window when I read your comments regarding Maul. I see your other reply to me on that, and I'll get to it soon. I haven't read it yet but am getting to it. =)

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#60 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:
@redheathen said:
@richard96 said:

@redheathen:

“Maul is not weak link. He and Dooku combined are, but only because Vader + SK is a formidable duo. However, they might just maybe have an edge with sabers with Maul. Dooku loses to Vader. Maul v SK in only sabers would be an incredible duel, but Maul would win. We agree on something yet again. =)”

As force user, maul is the weak link. He is the weakest here. Vader or SK would abuse the force and beat him.

I disagree on an individual (character) basis and see them as being close, and as a team, they are weaker than Vader/SK. I rely on what's published, so I place Maul > Dooku, but that is Legends. I'm not sure if you are using canon or not, but if you are, what is in canon that places Dooku > Maul using the Force?

Dooku has sources stating he's>TPM Maul as of AotC.

darksith123 and killbilly are referencing Beware the Sith, and that book flat out says TPM Maul > Dooku in raw power and Force abilities.

However, I would like to know what there is in canon that states Dooku > Maul, especially TCW Maul. TPM Maul was only 22 years old and had officially been a Sith apprentice for five years. I think it's more fair to focus on the version established in the OP, which is for composite Maul as of Son of Dathomir, so to me, this is what I'd like an official source for.

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#61 Posted by dark-sith123 (5024 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

Beware the Sith states Maul > Dooku? Can I have the citation? That would be very sweet for... raising... Maul.

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#62 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

The novel, just like Beware the Sith for ESB, is clearly referring to Suit Vader, lol. Anakin and Vader are seen as different people- especially so by Vader himself.

As for Kenobi's statement on Luke being the Chosen One, you mustn't be too harsh on Obi-Wan. Remember, Vader had turned to the Dark and become a mass murderer, so the chances of him being the Chosen One were beyond slim.

As to suit Vader...LOL I admit I'm lost here because I wasn't aware that I said otherwise???

I own BTS, and what's hilarious to me is I got on this forum and people booed me for citing it, including @killbilly. XD =D It's great you guys are using now.

As to Anakin and Vader being different people, well, all I've got right now is a bunch of lolz because I am not sure how to respond because I'm not sure why you brought it up. ???

Yeah, poor old Ben. :D

You're really funny, and I'm not being mean. I'm assuming you made this post tongue-in-cheek.

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#63 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio
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#64 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

Beware the Sith states Maul > Dooku? Can I have the citation? That would be very sweet for... raising... Maul.

I only took a photo of the red box. I didn't take pix of everything on these pages, which were in a section discussing being an apprentice to Sidious.

No Caption Provided

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#65 Posted by dark-sith123 (5024 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

Well, according to your own post, Dooku has 10 lightsaber skill and Maul has 7...

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#66 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:

@dark-sith123: They're stats, IIRC.

they are not game mechanics nor a part of a game. stats themselves are not barred, and i asked leland chee about this on twitter. he said to regard this book the same as any other c canon book.

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#67 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

Well, according to your own post, Dooku has 10 lightsaber skill and Maul has 7...

  1. in the eu, if contradictory information was published, chee has said that what takes precedence is what was published last or what has been published the most.
  2. this is an eu book and canon has overwritten the eu.
  3. canon has specifically placed maul > dooku with sabers.
  4. canon has not overwritten the bit about maul > dooku in raw power or force abilities.

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#68 Posted by Helloman (29574 posts) - - Show Bio

Team one wins.

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#69 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: I like how Maul's cunning is a mere 3 despite spending over a decade in a junk planet after being cut in half, starting from the bottom in terms of resources and financially yet he still outsmarted Dooku and Grievous, gained enough power and influence that Sidious deemed him as a "rival" even forcing his former master to personally deal with him.

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#70 Posted by dark-sith123 (5024 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

When has Canon stated Maul > Dooku in sabers? Please don't bring up the cringey book that puts Vader > Sidious.

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#71 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

When has Canon stated Maul > Dooku in sabers? Please don't bring up the cringey book that puts Vader > Sidious.

well, it is canon and was published as canon not once but twice without any edits.

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#72 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:

@redheathen: I like how Maul's cunning is a mere 3 despite spending over a decade in a junk planet after being cut in half, starting from the bottom in terms of resources and financially yet he still outsmarted Dooku and Grievous, gained enough power and influence that Sidious deemed him as a "rival" even forcing his former master to personally deal with him.

the maul in the book is tpm maul and not tcw maul.

and yes, as of canon and as of the clone wars, maul is a scheming mastermind. he is very intelligent. obviously that part was overwritten. it seems to contradictory to g canon of the time anyway.

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#73 Edited by Richard96 (5723 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

“I disagree on an individual (character) basis and see them as being close, and as a team, they are weaker than Vader/SK. I rely on what's published, so I place Maul &amp;gt; Dooku, but that is Legends. I'm not sure if you are using canon or not, but if you are, what is in canon that places Dooku &amp;gt; Maul using the Force?”

Have you forgotten that Jedi master magazine retconned beware the sith? We discussed about it. AOTC Kenobi > Dooku > Maul in force power. I wonder why you don’t remember it...

By the way, a 2010 sourcebook stated kit Fisto would beat maul. Nothing retconned it, then Fisto > Maul > Dooku in sabers!

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#74 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@redheathen:

“I disagree on an individual (character) basis and see them as being close, and as a team, they are weaker than Vader/SK. I rely on what's published, so I place Maul &amp;gt; Dooku, but that is Legends. I'm not sure if you are using canon or not, but if you are, what is in canon that places Dooku &amp;gt; Maul using the Force?”

Have you forgotten that Jedi master magazine retconned beware the sith? We discussed about it. AOTC Kenobi > Dooku > Maul in force power. I wonder why you don’t remember it...

By the way, a 2010 sourcebook stated kit Fisto would beat maul. Nothing retconned it, then Fisto > Maul > Dooku in sabers!

no that 2010 book was never canon. you're talking about the head to head series, right? it isn't a sourcebook. it's a "what if" scenario, and i can't find the source that states it was never canon, but i'll look again for it. it doesn't matter because contradicts gillard's ranking anyway. however, i know for sure it was never canon.

as to the magazine, i did forget it, but it was for TPM maul right? and it was not for raw power or ability? wasn't it labeled as force power?

okay so i just looked it up. i was right. it is for TPM maul and was labeled as "force level". 83 year old dooku was listed at 87, and 22 year old maul was listed at 85. it doesn't discuss raw power or force abilities. i don't see anything that is contradictory here.

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#75 Posted by darthbane77 (2111 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader and Starkiller, solidly.

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#76 Posted by KillBilly (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly said:

@redheathen: Fightsaber was published in Insider #62, Oct 2002.

  1. Insider mag at that time was C canon.
  2. The novelization of ROTJ states that Vader was more powerful than he'd ever been. At the time, it was G canon.'

The mag article statement about Vader contradicted G canon and was therefore NONCANON.

The ESB quote doesn't contradict the RotJ quote. It states that, as of ESB, he's at the height of his powers. That doesn't preclude him from becoming more powerful at some point in the future.

It's like Vitiate's quote of being the most powerful Force user in galactic history up to his point in time. Or Marka Ragnos being the most powerful of the most powerful. Or Exar Kun being the most powerful. They're not contradictory, they're just talking about a specific point in time.

I agree with you on this and wasn't arguing otherwise. I was talking to @dark-sith123, but I did not remove your name what I grabbed the quote. Please accept my apologies for that.

Ah, no problem. Sorry for the confusion.

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#77 Posted by Richard96 (5723 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

“no that 2010 book was never canon. you're talking about the head to head series, right? it isn't a sourcebook. it's a "what if" scenario, and i can't find the source that states it was never canon, but i'll look again for it. it doesn't matter because contradicts gillard's ranking anyway. however, i know for sure it was never canon.”

Do you have the source stating it is not canon?

“okay so i just looked it up. i was right. it is for TPM maul and was labeled as "force level". 83 year old dooku was listed at 87, and 22 year old maul was listed at 85. it doesn't discuss raw power or force abilities. i don't see anything that is contradictory here.”

You are so biased. Force level is basically raw power. It is actualized raw power, cause TPM Anakin and ROTS Anakin has different level. There is nothing stating beware the sith stats weren’t refrain from to actualized raw power.

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#78 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@redheathen:

“no that 2010 book was never canon. you're talking about the head to head series, right? it isn't a sourcebook. it's a "what if" scenario, and i can't find the source that states it was never canon, but i'll look again for it. it doesn't matter because contradicts gillard's ranking anyway. however, i know for sure it was never canon.”

Do you have the source stating it is not canon?

“okay so i just looked it up. i was right. it is for TPM maul and was labeled as "force level". 83 year old dooku was listed at 87, and 22 year old maul was listed at 85. it doesn't discuss raw power or force abilities. i don't see anything that is contradictory here.”

You are so biased. Force level is basically raw power. It is actualized raw power, cause TPM Anakin and ROTS Anakin has different level. There is nothing stating beware the sith stats weren’t refrain from to actualized raw power.

i didn't look, but if you look at the book itself, the cover has the title and subtitle, which iirc was something along the lines of "the fights that never happen". wookieepedia says "imaginary fights" in the area where the publisher's summary goes. like i said, they are "what if" scenarios, which have never been canon.

no it's not the same thing. @killbilly did a great job describing the difference once. maybe he's willing to do it again. ???

of course tpm and rots anakin are difference levels. anakin was 9 years old and had no idea he had any power to tap into.

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#79 Edited by KillBilly (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: no it's not the same thing. @killbilly did a great job describing the difference once. maybe he's willing to do it again. ???

Sorry, what exactly would you like me to elaborate on again?

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#80 Posted by Kbroskywalker2 (129 posts) - - Show Bio

team 1 ragdolls maul, demolish dooku.

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#81 Posted by Richard96 (5723 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

“i didn't look, but if you look at the book itself, the cover has the title and subtitle, which iirc was something along the lines of "the fights that never happen".”

Cause it describes fights which have never happened. It doesn’t mean the outcome described isn’t valid.

“wookieepedia says "imaginary fights" in the area where the publisher's summary goes. like i said, they are "what if" scenarios, which have never been canon.”

Wookiepedia itself is a non canon source. All the info contained have been written by random fanboys.

“no it's not the same thing. @killbilly did a great job describing the difference once. maybe he's willing to do it again?”

Raw power is a general term. It refers to actualized raw power simply cause luke and Vader have similar stats. Vader 8, luke 7. We know that luke’s potential >>>>>>> suited vader’s. Not to mention they have the same level of force skills, LOL. I cannot even descrive how stupid those stats are.

“of course tpm and rots anakin are difference levels. anakin was 9 years old and had no idea he had any power to tap into.”

Eh, cause that force level refers to actualized power.

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#82 Posted by Criostomp (256 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader team in a VERY good fight.

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#83 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: no it's not the same thing. @killbilly did a great job describing the difference once. maybe he's willing to do it again. ???

Sorry, what exactly would you like me to elaborate on again?

the definition of raw power. we discussed it in relation to realized and potential power. you mentioned how it was either one of those things and explained it pretty well.

@richard96 i put some effort in looking for info that flat out says head to head was never canon. i don't know where it is. i'd think that most people understand this from what the book itself says. i just don't have the desire to look for it. if you want to rely on the book as a source, then go ahead. it's a bit ridiculous, but whatever makes you happy.

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#84 Posted by Richard96 (5723 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

“i put some effort in looking for info that flat out says head to head was never canon. i don't know where it is. i'd think that most people understand this from what the book itself says. i just don't have the desire to look for it. if you want to rely on the book as a source, then go ahead. it's a bit ridiculous, but whatever makes you happy.”

Lol, like it is ridiculous to rely on random stats of a childlish sourcebook as a source. Per chee’s words, that h2h book is as reliable as beware the sith.

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#85 Posted by deactivated-5bd0d99b6c6f7 (1676 posts) - - Show Bio
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#86 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

“i put some effort in looking for info that flat out says head to head was never canon. i don't know where it is. i'd think that most people understand this from what the book itself says. i just don't have the desire to look for it. if you want to rely on the book as a source, then go ahead. it's a bit ridiculous, but whatever makes you happy.”

Lol, like it is ridiculous to rely on random stats of a childlish sourcebook as a source. Per chee’s words, that h2h book is as reliable as beware the sith.

just to let you know, some other head to head matches with results are as follows:

  1. Luke Skywalker vs Kylo Ren
    Winner: Kylo Ren

  2. Poe Dameron vs Aurra Sing
    Winner: Poe Dameron

  3. Han Solo vs Jango Fett
    Winner: Han Solo

  4. (in another H2H, similar matchup)

    Han Solo vs. Jango Fett
    Winner: Jango Fett

  5. Captain Phasma vs Boba Fett
    Winner: Captain Phasma

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#87 Edited by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen said:
  1. Luke Skywalker vs Kylo Ren
    Winner: Kylo Ren

Ewww.

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#88 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio
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#89 Posted by Richard96 (5723 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

Even AOTC kenobi > dooku in force power is a bullshit, but per chee’s words is canon! Do you see how this approach is ridiculous?

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#90 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

Even AOTC kenobi > dooku in force power is a bullshit, but per chee’s words is canon! Do you see how this approach is ridiculous?

it doesn't matter. if fans decided what was ridiculous and what wasn't, then there would be no point in having discussions such as these, but i think that this is when listening to the ground rules asserted by chee matters. it's not just what was published last. it's also what is published most. also, there may be more to those scalings, or it could have been an error. why don't you write to the magazine and ask them? explain the problem.

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#91 Edited by Richard96 (5723 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

And then, if it matters what has been published most, beware the sith stats and Star Wars everything you need to know ranking (which is most likely a ranking based on fame) have been contradicted to death.

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#92 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

And then, if it matters what has been published most, beware the sith stats and Star Wars everything you need to know ranking (which is most likely a ranking based on fame) have been contradicted to death.

not in official publications. maybe in fanboy feat rankings, but not in licensed media.

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#93 Edited by Richard96 (5723 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

“not in official publications. maybe in fanboy feat rankings, but not in licensed media.”

You are the only one who stupidly refuses feat here. Anyway, you are still flat out wrong. Even canon sources have attested Dooku’s superiority over TPM Maul, underlining his contention with an astronomically TPM maul’s superior in yoda. Lord of the sith has underlined that sidious, with just a fraction of his power, performed equally to Vader on ryloth. Ben kenobi, who is canonically inferior to ROTS Kenobi (2017 sources), who is astronomically inferior to sidious, managed to fight on equal terms with Vader. Sidious >Vader. End.

You still believe TPM Maul > Dooku in force power, while a more recent source than BTS has retconned it, and both the sources refers to actualized power (cause Luke is close to vader according to BTS). The point that raw power =\= force level is moot. Force level is a general stats which most likely included both raw power and force skills. The two sources are clearly contradicting. Continuing to question it is just bias.

However, no problem, Fisto > Maul > Dooku in LightSaber skill and AOTC Kenobi > Dooku > Maul in force power.

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#94 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@redheathen:

“not in official publications. maybe in fanboy feat rankings, but not in licensed media.”

You are the only one who stupidly refuses feat here. Anyway, you are still flat out wrong. Even canon sources have attested Dooku’s superiority over TPM Maul, underlining his contention with an astronomically TPM maul’s superior in yoda. Lord of the sith has underlined that sidious, with just a fraction of his power, performed equally to Vader on ryloth. Ben kenobi, who is canonically inferior to ROTS Kenobi (2017 sources), who is astronomically inferior to sidious, managed to fight on equal terms with Vader. Sidious >Vader. End.

You still believe TPM Maul > Dooku in force power, while a more recent source than BTS has retconned it, and both the sources refers to actualized power (cause Luke is close to vader according to BTS). The point that raw power =\= force level is moot. Force level is a general stats which most likely included both raw power and force skills. The two sources are clearly contradicting. Continuing to question it is just bias.

However, no problem, Fisto > Maul > Dooku in LightSaber skill and AOTC Kenobi > Dooku > Maul in force power.

  1. "The point that raw power isn't =\= force level is moot." <-- raw power isn't = to force level is most certainly not moot.
  2. "Force level is a general stats which most likely included..." <-- "which most likely", do you see where this is an utter fail?
  3. "The two sources are clearly contradictory" <-- not really and even then a case can be made regarding Chee's statements.
  4. "Continuing to question it is just bias." <-- for you, yes.
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#95 Posted by dark-sith123 (5024 posts) - - Show Bio

Kylo beating Luke and Han beating Jango is just plain retarded. Not to mention Poe beating Aurra. Where is that from exactly?

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#96 Edited by Richard96 (5723 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

“"Force level is a general stats which most likely included..." &amp;lt;-- "which most likely", do you see where this is an utter fail?”

Prove me force level has nothing to do with force skill and raw power. I PROVED the BTS stats of force skills and raw power refer to actualized levels, cause luke isn’t >>> Vader according to those stats, despite having far more force potential. Force level refers to an actualized level too, cause TPM anakin and ROTS anakin have different levels, and potential doesn’t change across time. Now, TPM Maul has more actualized force skills and raw power than Dooku, according to BTS, but his actualized force level is inferior to the one of the Count??? It is CLEARLY AN ABSURD, no matter how much you try to save your idol.

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#97 Posted by dark-sith123 (5024 posts) - - Show Bio

"no matter how much you try to save your idol"

I mean, coming from where it's coming and in the context it's coming from, this has got to be candidate for sentence of the year.

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#98 Edited by Richard96 (5723 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123:

Well, saying TPM Maul is above Dooku in both force and saber skill, cherrypicking some sources and ignoring others, is beyond even you, LOL

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#99 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

"no matter how much you try to save your idol"

I mean, coming from where it's coming and in the context it's coming from, this has got to be candidate for sentence of the year.

Why is that @dark-sith123? Where is it coming from and what is the context?

@dark-sith123:

Well, saying TPM Maul is above Dooku in both force and saber skill, cherrypicking some sources and ignoring others, is beyond even you, LOL

I'm not cherry picking. You wish I was so you could continue derailing this (among many) thread. I'm just better than you are at understanding what Chee meant when he discussed how to use sources.

Jedi Master Magazine

@redheathen:

“"Force level is a general stats which most likely included..." &amp;lt;-- "which most likely", do you see where this is an utter fail?”

Prove me force level has nothing to do with force skill and raw power. I PROVED the BTS stats of force skills and raw power refer to actualized levels, cause luke isn’t >>> Vader according to those stats, despite having far more force potential. Force level refers to an actualized level too, cause TPM anakin and ROTS anakin have different levels, and potential doesn’t change across time. Now, TPM Maul has more actualized force skills and raw power than Dooku, according to BTS, but his actualized force level is inferior to the one of the Count??? It is CLEARLY AN ABSURD, no matter how much you try to save your idol.

You didn't prove anything at all except that you enjoy talking.

You are using a magazine that is contradicted several times, even by the top canon-the movies, as your reference to prove Beware the Sith is wrong. Actually, I don't see the big deal here. It's off by two points and is comparing a five year apprentice aged 22 with one of the best Jedi in the 25,000 year history of the Jedi Order who is 83 years old. How do you argue two points when it ends up being negligible? I don't even know why we should get this upset over the difference between and 85 and an 87, lol. If we treat it loosely, then it fits in just fine as far as I'm concerned, but then I still am not sure that I'd say that raw power is the same thing as actualized power. To me, it's similar to how people argue force users being amped. Force level doesn't necessarily mean Force abilities, and really, I think that most people who nitpick definitions, such as myself, walk away from this with the concept that "Force Level" isn't well defined when compared to other Force terms. You can think that you've proven this or that, but really all you've proven is that you like to come up with your own definitions. You could end up being right, but we don't know that. Because we don't know that, then why try to force your own definition?

Maul most definitely is not my idol. You again prove how you like to assert your assumptions as concrete evidence.

Force level is basically raw power. It is actualized raw power, cause TPM Anakin and ROTS Anakin has different level. There is nothing stating beware the sith stats weren’t refrain from to actualized raw power.

force level = basically raw power. force level = actualized raw power.

^^^So you're saying that "basically" and "actualized" are the same thing? Similar to potential is basically the same thing as actualized potential? lol ...

And actually, yes. Yes, there is something "stating beware the sith stats" do "refrain from to actualized power." If I understand what you are attempting say, then it's easily proven by the simple fact that the statement doesn't specify actualized raw power. For whatever that's worth. Then again, I don't really know what you were trying to say.

Raw power is a general term. It refers to actualized raw power simply cause luke and Vader have similar stats. Vader 8, luke 7. We know that luke’s potential >>>>>>> suited vader’s. Not to mention they have the same level of force skills, LOL. I cannot even descrive how stupid those stats are.

I understand perfectly fine what you're saying. I'm simply saying that there have been arguments otherwise on this topic. I can't debate this point though. Either way, some of BTS stats are supported by canon and other sources. The books that are published are our guides, and we have to take what is published whether we like it or not. It's similar to when people read Ahsoka, and they didn't like the fact that red kaiburr crystals weren't synthetic anymore. They might not like it, but it is now fact.

We also have a tremendous amount of accolades repeating the fact that Maul was one of the most highly skilled, trained, and deadly Sith in all of the entire Sith Order's history. We have sources other people have used that place Maul > Dooku more times than not in combat. You take what you are given and then logically sort through it ***using Chee's method***. It's not that difficult to do. Don't get me wrong. I'm arguing just to argue. If the difference presented by the magazine bothers you so much, then I'd file JMM under "preponderance of other sources say otherwise" as instructed by Chee. Otherwise, don't accuse me of cherry picking.

Getting back to your original statement about Head to Head:

By the way, a 2010 sourcebook stated kit Fisto would beat maul. Nothing retconned it, then Fisto > Maul > Dooku in sabers!

I can't find anything regarding if it was canon or not, so I'll move forward because I really don't want to spend the time on it. I'll acquiesce but it doesn't matter. We'll accept the book as c canon for arguments sake, but again, it doesn't matter.

  1. It's a 2010 book. C canon. Other books in the EU such as Beware the Sith were published afterward.
  2. It's a 2010 book. C canon. Other books in Canon such as SWAEYNtK have been published afterward.
  3. It's a 2010 book. C canon. The movie is currently canon and was G canon during the EU. Lucas and Gillard's leveling disprove at least the one statement above Maul's status, level 8, compared to Fisto, level 7.
  4. It's a 2010 book. C canon. The tv show TCW gives us a great indication of Maul compared to Kenobi, which is more or less consistent with Lucas and Gillard leveling. Both of them are leveled higher than Fisto.
  5. There are more sources published that support Maul > Fisto than that one source, and they are published before as well as after Head to Head.
  6. Hidalgo, the writer behind H2H is not involved with character development of any of these characters, or at least he wasn't. Lucas and Gillard definitely were.

I'll agree with you and say the book hasn't been retconned. I'd say that at least this bit about Maul > Fisto was overwritten. In fact, I'll continue to say that at least this tidbit never was canon considering it contradicts the main leveling used to create certain characteristics of the characters themselves as well as the fights. If you put Chee's explanations into use, they can actually make sense. It's not cherry picking.

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#100 Posted by dark-sith123 (5024 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

Why is that @dark-sith123? Where is it coming from and what is the context?

Richard is criticizing you for "defending your idol". That's pretty much indirectly saying you're a Maul fanboy.
Which seeing as how he clearly looks up to Count Dooku, and "raises" him far more than you do Maul- check out the Maul vs Dooku thread- and his "liking" for Darth Caedus shouldn't be disregarded either.