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#1 Edited by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

No Caption Provided
  • Darth Vader (Return of the Jedi)
  • Starkiller (The Force Unleashed II)

VERSUS

No Caption Provided
  • Darth Tryanus (Revenge of the Sith)
  • Darth Maul (Clone Wars Season 5)

Rules:

  • Composite versions
  • Standard equipment
  • Victory via death
  • No prep, random encounter
  • The fight takes place on the Petranaki arena
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#3 Posted by Slayedigneel (1921 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader and Starkiller Mid Diff.

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#4 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6307 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by RedHeathen (2246 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages I think the S5 timeline included Son of Dathomir, so does this include SOD Maul?

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#6 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16807 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1. Nice fight.

Online
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#7 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages I think the S5 timeline included Son of Dathomir, so does this include SOD Maul?

Yes. Edited it to composite versions.

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#8 Posted by Necromancer76 (3783 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1. IMO, Vader>Dooku>Starkiller>Maul. Good fight.

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#9 Posted by i_like_swords (26231 posts) - - Show Bio

Starkiller seals the win for his team.

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#10 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader and Starkiller stomp

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#11 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

Starkiller<=Maul, Vader>Dooku. Vader as MVP gets his team the victory though only if they play it smart- in a saber duel they die.

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#12 Edited by Richard96 (5804 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul is the weak link and takes Dooku with him in death. They will take sabers, though.

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#13 Posted by TJTheDuelist (354 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader > Dooku > Starkiller > Maul

Team 1. Mid diff

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#14 Posted by bigsambino87 (1754 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1, for sure.

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#15 Posted by KillBilly (1981 posts) - - Show Bio

Starkiller and Vader without much issue.

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#16 Posted by Grinningf0x (1483 posts) - - Show Bio

Team one

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#17 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 does win but going around acting like they have little issue or mild difficulty is far beyond me.

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#18 Edited by echostarlord117 (5617 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

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#19 Posted by KillBilly (1981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: Personally, it's far beyond me to suggest that Maul even comes close to Starkiller. You learn to live with these things though.

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#21 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly:

Sorry, my earlier post got deleted.

While Maul probably can't match Starkiller or give him trouble in the Force he's a better duelist and that's actually making a fight between them close.

Maul is doomed however since Vader is the MVP and he'll be bringing down Dooku.

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#22 Edited by freesid_stf123 (537 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1. Too powerful

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#23 Posted by KillBilly (1981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: Do you mean as a technical duelist or as an overall lightsaber combatant?

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#24 Edited by Erkan12 (8435 posts) - - Show Bio

I've seen a post states Dooku is closer to Vader than Starkiller was. I mean, wtf.

Starkiller is meant to be equal to Vader in Legends and a possible substitute. Dooku is the guy who is meant to be inferior to pre-suit Vader and just a place holder for him.

If we take the Legends versions, Maul can replicate what he did in the Resurrection. But even then Dooku can't do anything to Vader's strength and durability. Or Starkiller's power, team 1 wins.

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#25 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Edited by KillBilly (1981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: It's important to make the distinction tbh.

I can agree that Maul is probably more technically skilled but, as you yourself admitted, Starkiller is more powerful and, as a result, logically possesses superior augmentation. I don't believe Maul could replicate Starkiller's performance against TFU Vader. This is likely due our differing view of ANH Vader wherein I hold him above RotS Anakin whilst you do not.

Another reason our stances could differ is that you believe the Maul doppleganger Vader faced around ANH is representative of the real Maul's ability. In that scenario, I could see why you would hold a differing opinion, but you know that I don't believe that to be the case as we discussed in the other thread.

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#27 Edited by i_like_swords (26231 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly: Why do you have ANH Vader over Anakin? And what's the difference between the resurrected Maul and the real one?

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#28 Edited by KillBilly (1981 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Because he's stated to be.

The Maul doppleganger is indicated to be a Darkside creation formed by the acolytes. Considering Maul is stated to be inferior to Dooku both in universe by Kenobi and the author of SoD, Dooku being inferior to Anakin who's inferior to ANH Vader, I don't see the real TPM Maul performing as well against a Vader close to ANH.

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#29 Posted by i_like_swords (26231 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly: Where? Please tell me you're not referencing RotJ.

No he isn't. But in the solicitation for the comic he is stated to be TPM Maul for all intents and purposes. The whole comic is meant to serve as a fan-service fight between the two Sith.

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#30 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

Fightsaber explicitly states that Vader is a shadow of his former self. It's referring to the last time Vader and Kenobi fought so Vader is considerably below Mustafar Vader, never mind Jedi Anakin or the Dooku-stomper Knightfall Vader.

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#31 Edited by KillBilly (1981 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Where? Please tell me you're not referencing RotJ.

I'm referencing "Beware the Sith." Though I know there's a common alternative interpretation. If you don't like that one you can take the one from ESB.

No he isn't.

Yes he is.

No Caption Provided

The acolytes response to Vader asking how they brought Maul back.

But in the solicitation for the comic he is stated to be TPM Maul for all intents and purposes.

?

I'm not sure what you're referencing here. Are you talking about the simple fact that the advertisement says "Maul vs Vader?" That's hardly evidence of anything... Especially considering the real Maul is confirmed to be less powerful then Dooku by both Kenobi in universe and the author of SoD in an interview.

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#32 Edited by KillBilly (1981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123 said:

Fightsaber explicitly states that Vader is a shadow of his former self. It's referring to the last time Vader and Kenobi fought so Vader is considerably below Mustafar Vader, never mind Jedi Anakin or the Dooku-stomper Knightfall Vader.

We don't know what this is in reference to though it's likely talking about Vader's limited mobility or hampered potential given Anakin wasn't less powerful on Mustafar. He was emotionally and mentally unstable which hampered ability to properly utilize his power. That doesn't mean he was weaker.

Regardless, as I mentioned in my response to ILS, there's a quote in ESB that in no uncertain terms places him above Anakin ( to try to find an alternative meaning would be denial of fact ). You can crow all you want about how Vader grew "far more formidable" but the fact is, there's nothing to indicate he would have grown more in the 3 years between ANH and ESB then he would have in any 3 year period prior to that point. In fact, there's more to suggest he didn't given Force user's tend hit diminishing returns the longer they train.

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#33 Edited by i_like_swords (26231 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly:Can you post the quote? Not that I find a kids book overly compelling either way compared to the body of evidence proving Anakin is better than Vader.

Oh, I thought you meant as an illusion. I don't really care how they did it, the idea that the Maul Vader fought is any different from TPM Maul seems pretty dishonest.

No, I'm talking about the solicitation Dark Horse put out for the comic.

Ladies and Gentlemen! Boys and Girls! Droids and Jawas! Prepare yourselves for the battle of the century! In this corner, weighing in at 220 pounds, the terror from Tatooine, the Dark Lord of the Sith, the former Anakin Skywalker -- DARTH VADER! And in this corner, weighing in at 175 pounds, a killer of Jedi, the Naboo Annihilator, Darth Sidious' #1 apprentice -- DARTH MAUL! Make sure you're here on September 12th, 2001 for the answer to the question on everyone's lips: "Who's tougher? Vader or Maul?" Let the BATTLE begin!

Darth Maul had a screen time of approximately fifteen minutes in EPISODE I, but his fame is hardly over. Maul has, by far, been the character most requested by our readers to further explore. How to do it? Easy. Have him knuckle up against Darth Vader. Maul is vicious, physical, and primal. Vader is focused and calculating...but still has the faintest trace of humanity. Both have succumbed to the dark side of the force. Both are ambitious. But Sith law says there's only room for one.

https://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/00-452/Star-Wars-Tales-9

Dunno about you, but that description doesn't exactly scream out "but this version of Maul is waaaay different." In fact, it indicates that it's for all intents and purposes the same Maul we saw in The Phantom Menace. I know, totally shocking, that.

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#34 Edited by i_like_swords (26231 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, we know you want to put Galen above everyone. Sadly, no dice. NGL though, I find it fascinating that you seem to place all of your chips on this one quote from Beware the Sith, a children's book, that puts Vader over Anakin, yet are willing to dismiss other sources claiming Vader improved between movies that appeared in Star Wars Fact Files, because you prefer your own rationalisation. Smells like a double standard.

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#35 Edited by KillBilly (1981 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Can you post the quote?

Sure.

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith

Not that I find a kids book overly compelling either way compared to the body of evidence proving Anakin is better than Vader.

What you want to do with established parts of continuity is none of my business.

Oh, I thought you meant as an illusion. I don't really care how they did it, the idea that the Maul Vader fought is any different from TPM Maul seems pretty dishonest.

Dunno about you, but that description doesn't exactly scream out "but this version of Maul is waaaay different." In fact, it indicates that it's for all intents and purposes the same Maul we saw in The Phantom Menace. I know, totally shocking, that.

Only dishonest if you don't believe it. Given multiple sources confirm Maul's inferiority to Dooku, someone who is solidly below the likes of Anakin who I believe Vader surpassed as of ANH ( and who we know surpassed him as of ESB ) I don't find it plausible that a copy of TPM Maul with similar capabilities could have performed as he did ( even ignoring the Beware the Sith quote ). The fact that he is indeed NOT the real Maul simply clarifies the matter and provides a fix for the inconsistency imo.

Yes, we know you want to put Galen above everyone. Sadly, no dice. NGL though, I find it fascinating that you seem to place all of your chips on this one quote from Beware the Sith, a children's book, that puts Vader over Anakin, yet are willing to dismiss other sources claiming Vader improved between movies that appeared in Star Wars Fact Files, because you prefer your own rationalisation. Smells like a double standard.

I never denied the quote. I simply stated that the growth he experienced logically wouldn't have been all that much greater then any 3 year period prior to that point.

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#36 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly:

We don't know what this is in reference to though it's likely talking about Vader's limited mobility or hampered potential given Anakin wasn't less powerful on Mustafar. He was emotionally and mentally unstable which hampered ability to properly utilize his power. That doesn't mean he was weaker.

We definitely do know.

When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader on the Death Star, both combatants know that they are but shadows of their former selves.

Both combatants know they are a shadow of their former self. Combatants. Vader as a combatant is vastly below Anakin Skywalker. Heck, since it's referring to the Kenobi vs Vader duel, it's likely that it's referring to their selves on Mustafar, meaning that ANH Vader is well below Mustafar Vader never mind Anakin/Knightfall Vader.

Regardless, as I mentioned in my response to ILS, there's a quote in ESB that in no uncertain terms places him above Anakin ( to try to find an alternative meaning would be denial of fact ).

I can't say anything until I have the quote.

You can crow all you want about how Vader grew "far more formidable"

Since this is canonical fact, I most certainly will "crow about it."

but the fact is, there's nothing to indicate he would have grown more in the 3 years between ANH and ESB then he would have in any 3 year period prior to that point.

Vader is a mere shadow of Mustafar Anakin as of A New Hope, so if Vader really was Anakin's superior in The Empire Strikes Back (which isn't the case) then yes, the growth between that three year period was much more significant. But since Vader was still below Anakin in ESB, you have your answer: it wasn't.

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith

Quote's referring to Mustafar Vader who is clearly far below Knightfall Vader- for one to go from Dooku-stomper to only being somewhat above Kenobi something clearly happened. Even then, as an overall combatant Vader is but a mere shadow of Mustafar Vader who in turn pales in comparison to Knightfall Vader who has legitimate hype placing him on the level I'd say right below Yoda and Sidious.

Also:

Considering Maul is stated to be inferior to Dooku both in universe by Kenobi

Not going to take his word as... irrefutable fact. But okay.

and the author of SoD,

Who also said Maul would beat Dooku for a 7/10 majority, lmfao.

Anakin who's inferior to ANH Vader,

Mustafar Vader is arguably below ANH Vader in power but he'd still solidly beat his "shadow".

I don't see the real TPM Maul performing as well against a Vader close to ANH.

Sith Hunters Maul- who at this point has only been restored to his former power- utterly stomped late TCW Kenobi in the Force. TPM/SH Maul is, for all intents and purposes, meant to be a rival of RotS Kenobi who in turn is vastly ahead of the Ben Kenobi that Vader seriously struggled to beat. I don't see why TPM Maul can't beat Vader in a lightsaber duel.

@i_like_swords:

Yes, we know you want to put Galen above everyone. Sadly, no dice.

Have you heard the best?

  • Yoda's feats apparently are outmatched by Galen's
  • Normal Galen outperformed Yoda vs Sidious
  • Normal Galen can make Sidious desperate in the Force
  • Normal Galen can ragdoll Vader
  • Normal Galen can apparently dispatch Zonakin in the Force without that much trouble

I'm not trolling, I have seen these claims.

Smells like a double standard.

Why, I'm absolutely shocked.

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#37 Posted by lubub55 (12939 posts) - - Show Bio

Team one no doubt.

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#38 Edited by KillBilly (1981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: We definitely do know.

Feel free to quote your sources. :)

Both combatants know they are a shadow of their former self. Combatants.

... Yes? They are both technically "combatants" given they are engaging each other in combat.

Vader as a combatant is vastly below Anakin Skywalker.

Sorry, but that's not what it says. It says both combatants ( I.E. ANH Kenobi and ANH Vader ) are shadows of their former selves. Not that they're shadows of their former selves in regards to combat.

Heck, since it's referring to the Kenobi vs Vader duel, it's likely that it's referring to their selves on Mustafar, meaning that ANH Vader is well below Mustafar Vader never mind Anakin/Knightfall Vader.

Cute attempt at lowballing but ultimately a failed one because of the simple fact that such an interpretation is actively contradicted by other C canon material I've already quoted. Your opinion < actual continuity.

I can't say anything until I have the quote.

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers." - Insider 62.

Vader is a mere shadow of Mustafar Anakin as of A New Hope

In some regard, yes.

so if Vader really was Anakin's superior in The Empire Strikes Back (which isn't the case)

Which is the case* Your opinion < actual continuity.

then yes, the growth between that three year period was much more significant.

If your interpretation were the correct one ( Hint: It's not ).

But since Vader was still below Anakin in ESB, you have your answer: it wasn't.

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers." - Insider 62.

Your opinion < actual continuity.

Quote's referring to Mustafar Vader who is clearly far below Knightfall Vader

The quote refers to Anakin. Mustafar Anakin isn't any less powerful then Knightfall Vader. He's simply less capable.

for one to go from Dooku-stomper to only being somewhat above Kenobi something clearly happened.

Yes, he choked his pregnant wife and slaughtered children which drove him into mental and emotional instability. That wouldn't decrease his power. Only his combative effectiveness.

Even then, as an overall combatant Vader is but a mere shadow of Mustafar Vader

This interpretation ( that's the nicest word I could think of to call it ) is unlikely considering Vader is confirmed to be more powerful and can only have become MORE technically skilled. The only way he is inhibited is by his suit which I doubt is enough to place him beneath Mustafar Vader as an overall combatant if he's both more skilled and more powerful then an even more effective version of Anakin ( Knightfall ).

Not going to take his word as... irrefutable fact. But okay.

He said this in a monologue. Why would he have any reason to lie to himself about the respective ability of his opponents?

Who also said Maul would beat Dooku for a 7/10 majority, lmfao.

Sure. I'm not saying its factual. I'm just pointing out that multiple sources place Maul below Dooku as a Force user.

Mustafar Vader is arguably below ANH Vader in power but he'd still solidly beat his "shadow".

I find it unlikely that Vader would lose to somebody confirmed to be less powerful and logically less skilled then him.

Sith Hunters Maul- who at this point has only been restored to his former power-utterly stomped late TCW Kenobi in the Force.

''Savage was right. Maul's power was growing, because he had a purpose again, and a vision.'' - Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy.

Maul's power was stated to increase because he had a "purpose and a vision." So no, it wasn't just his "former power" which allowed him to accomplish the feat.

TPM/SH Maul is, for all intents and purposes, meant to be a rival of RotS Kenobi

Sorry but, it was a more powerful version of Maul against a weaker version of Kenobi. So no, TPM Maul isn't meant to be a rival for RotS Kenobi unless you're trying to sell that the growth Maul experienced during TCW and the growth Kenobi experienced up to RotS were both insignificant. Considering Maul's feats as of TPM vs his feats as of TCW/SoD and Kenobi's improvement between AotC and RotS, I find that highly unlikely.

who in turn is vastly ahead of the Ben Kenobi that Vader seriously struggled to beat.

Vastly below* Considering Ben wasn't ragdolled by somebody solidly above the likes of Dooku.

I don't see why TPM Maul can't beat Vader in a lightsaber duel.

No Caption Provided

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#39 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly:

Sorry, but that's not what it says. It says both combatants ( I.E. ANH Kenobi and ANH Vader ) are shadows of their former selves. Not that they're shadows of their former selves in regards to combat.

Are you kidding me? It says that both combatants are a shadow of their former selves. It's referring to combat and even calling them combatants... how in this world are you telling me it's not referring to combat?

Cute attempt at lowballing but ultimately a failed one because of the simple fact that such an interpretation is actively contradicted by other C canon material I've already quoted. Your opinion < actual continuity.

Anakin > Vader is in no way contradicted by canon and is supported by it. Vader > Anakin? Lal.

As for the underlined, I'd advise you to not going around throwing rocks at other people's houses if your own house has very fragile glass windows.

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers." - Insider 62.

Height of his suit powers. There's a clear distinction between Vader and Anakin Skywalker.

Which is the case*

So in Episode IV he's a mere shadow of Mustafar Vader who in turn is vastly below Peak Anakin to being Peak Anakin's visible superior in three years? When the growth between ANH and ESB isn't supposed to be special compared to other three year periods? Lmao.

If your interpretation were the correct one ( Hint: It's not ).

We must have some sort of a telepathic link, because, believe it or not, I was about to say the exact same thing to you.

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers." - Insider 62.

Your opinion < actual continuity.

Repeating your debunked arguments is useless. Take it as a friendly tip, just so that you don't waste your time.

The quote refers to Anakin. Mustafar Anakin isn't any less powerful then Knightfall Vader. He's simply less capable.

He stalemated Kenobi in a telekinetic contest. You know, the Dooku-stomper who has hype placing him relatively close to Yoda and Sidious. Something tells me he wasn't capable of using his powers to the fullest...

Unless Kenobi can legitimately give Yoda/Sidious trouble in a telekinetic contest.

This interpretation ( that's the nicest word I could think to call them ) is unlikely considering Vader is confirmed to be more powerful and can only have become MORE technically skilled. The only way he is inhibited is by his suit which I doubt is enough to place him beneath Mustafar Vader as an overall combatant if he's both more skilled and more powerful.

"He only could have become more skiled, his suit is the only way that hinders him which isn't enough blah blah" Fightsaber explicitly states that Vader is a mere shadow of Mustafar Vader which pretty much paints a big disparity between them. But go on, keep on saying Vader is better.

I find it unlikely that Vader would lose to somebody confirmed to be less powerful and logically less skilled then him.

The canonical source Fightsaber doesn't seem to agree with your "logic."

Maul's power was stated to increase because he had a "purpose and a vision." So no, it wasn't just his "former power" which allowed him to accomplish the feat.

That was TCW Maul who has clearly grown more powerful. In their sparring match (if you can even call that a match), Savage expresses his surprise at Maul clearly having grown more powerful since their previous adventures (Death Sentence, Sith Hunters). In Sith Hunters though?

No Caption Provided

Yeah. TPM Maul=Sith Hunters Maul<TCW/SoD Maul. Try again.

Sorry but, it was a more powerful version of Maul

I'm noticing a pattern: canonical sources disagreeing with your claims.

against a weaker version of Kenobi.

Unless the growth was astronomical- which in 12 months at the very best I doubt- he couldn't have gone from being a ragdoll to a Maul that wasn't even trying to kill him to being more powerful than Maul.

So no, TPM Maul isn't meant to be a rival for RotS Kenobi

Yeah, rival is too generous a word. In the Force he's equal at worst.

unless you're trying to sell that the growth Maul experienced during TCW and the growth Kenobi experienced up to RotS were both insignificant.

Sith Hunters Maul is on the level of TPM Maul (unless you want to disagree with the book itself just because it doesn't favor your case or his Holy Highness Galen Marek) and he dominated late TCW Kenobi who's only 1 year away from RotS. Obviously he grew but it's also pretty obvious that he didn't grow to an extent where he was Maul's rag doll to Maul not even rivaling him.

Vastly below*

How long are you going to disregard a canon source just because it doesn't help your case? How long are you going to do that and accept the ones that do favor you? Please try. At least try to hide it a bit.

Considering Ben wasn't ragdolled by somebody solidly above the likes of Dooku.

You'd actually have a point if Vader did use the Force offensively on Ben.

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#40 Posted by Laurus (1622 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2, Dooku MVP.

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#41 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by Laurus (1622 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: Oh, yes. By quite a margin too. Dooku is on par with, if not slightly better than mace in terms of dueling, and he has Vader beat in force ability hands down.

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#43 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@laurus:

Vader definitely isn't better than Mace, a tier 8 bordering on nine who can give Palpatine trouble.

Dooku also definitely doesn't have Vader beat in Force abilities. Sidious refers to Vader as his "masterpiece", and Vader's top TK feats (matching and even overpowering Starkiller way before his prime, collapsing a cathedral massively pre prime, dominating Pavan and Ferus massively pre prime) are all around better.

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#44 Posted by Laurus (1622 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: If we go off what is shown in the movies, Yoda visibly was having trouble with Dooku, he was out of breath by the end of the duel whereas Dooku was not. So it's reasonable to assume Dooku is if anything nearly on par with Yoda in dueling ability.

Dooku was also matching Yoda in their little force duel before the fight, neither seemed to be going all out, however.

Vader showed nothing near those feats in any of the OT films.

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#45 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: What is the body of evidence placing Anakin above Vader?

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#46 Edited by RedHeathen (2246 posts) - - Show Bio
Team one wins. Out of ten, team two might can win a couple, but the majority by far goes to team one. I am not a Starkiller fan girl by any means, but I think he (at least the past year or so) has been underrated on this forum. He's around Vader, and Vader is above both members of team two regardless of versions or age.
TEAM WON. lol
@azronger said:

@i_like_swords: What is the body of evidence placing Anakin above Vader?

^^^ There's plenty to place Vader (not right after getting his suit) > Anakin (any ROTS version).

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#47 Posted by GeorgeWBush (12187 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul is way out of his depth here

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#48 Edited by RedHeathen (2246 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

Maul is the weak link and takes Dooku with him in death. They will take sabers, though.

Maul is not weak link. He and Dooku combined are, but only because Vader + SK is a formidable duo. However, they might just maybe have an edge with sabers with Maul. Dooku loses to Vader. Maul v SK in only sabers would be an incredible duel, but Maul would win. We agree on something yet again. =)

@killbilly said:
@dark-sith123 said:

Fightsaber explicitly states that Vader is a shadow of his former self. It's referring to the last time Vader and Kenobi fought so Vader is considerably below Mustafar Vader, never mind Jedi Anakin or the Dooku-stomper Knightfall Vader.

We don't know what this is in reference to though it's likely talking about Vader's limited mobility or hampered potential given Anakin wasn't less powerful on Mustafar. He was emotionally and mentally unstable which hampered ability to properly utilize his power. That doesn't mean he was weaker.

Regardless, as I mentioned in my response to ILS, there's a quote in ESB that in no uncertain terms places him above Anakin ( to try to find an alternative meaning would be denial of fact ). You can crow all you want about how Vader grew "far more formidable" but the fact is, there's nothing to indicate he would have grown more in the 3 years between ANH and ESB then he would have in any 3 year period prior to that point. In fact, there's more to suggest he didn't given Force user's tend hit diminishing returns the longer they train.

Fightsaber was published in Insider #62, Oct 2002.

  1. Insider mag at that time was C canon.
  2. The novelization of ROTJ states that Vader was more powerful than he'd ever been. At the time, it was G canon.'

The mag article statement about Vader contradicted G canon and was therefore NONCANON.

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#49 Edited by RedHeathen (2246 posts) - - Show Bio

@killbilly said:

@i_like_swords: Where? Please tell me you're not referencing RotJ.

I'm referencing "Beware the Sith." Though I know there's a common alternative interpretation. If you don't like that one you can take the one from ESB.

No he isn't.

Yes he is.

No Caption Provided

The acolytes response to Vader asking how they brought Maul back.

But in the solicitation for the comic he is stated to be TPM Maul for all intents and purposes.

?

I'm not sure what you're referencing here. Are you talking about the simple fact that the advertisement says "Maul vs Vader?" That's hardly evidence of anything... Especially considering the real Maul is confirmed to be less powerful then Dooku by both Kenobi in universe and the author of SoD in an interview.

No Caption Provided

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#50 Edited by RedHeathen (2246 posts) - - Show Bio

OMG OKAY SO I'M KINDA DONE BANGING MY HEAD AGAINST THE WALL FOR NOW (maybe not really) but seriously @killbilly, I don't even need to look up sources for this.

As to Maul < Dooku... I can't even. I can't even stop laughing because I just simply cannot even. I'm laughing because I don't have any more computers to throw out the window.

@killbilly said:

@i_like_swords: Where? Please tell me you're not referencing RotJ.

I'm referencing "Beware the Sith." Though I know there's a common alternative interpretation. If you don't like that one you can take the one from ESB.

No he isn't.

Yes he is.

No Caption Provided

The acolytes response to Vader asking how they brought Maul back.

But in the solicitation for the comic he is stated to be TPM Maul for all intents and purposes.

?

I'm not sure what you're referencing here. Are you talking about the simple fact that the advertisement says "Maul vs Vader?" That's hardly evidence of anything... Especially considering the real Maul is confirmed to be less powerful then Dooku by both Kenobi in universe and the author of SoD in an interview.

  1. In-universe Kenobi has stated that Jinn is the best Jedi with a saber. It's kind of simple math from here.
  2. In-universe Kenobi has stated the Luke is the Chosen One.
  3. Hildago and/or Gilroy and/or Filoni (two of them for sure) have stated that character opinions are opinions and not necessarily fact.
  4. AND OMG BACK TO BARLOW? SERIOUSLY? I can't even type all the lolz here.
    A. Barlow gave an opinion.
    B. Barlow's opinion was not expressed in the actual story.
    C. Barlow's opinion is not canon by any means, therefore it is NONCANON.
    D. Barlow then said that Maul would defeat Dooku on average 6.5/10.
    E. Books that were and are canon contradict Barlow's opinion and Kenobi's in-universe opinion.
    F. If we were to take Barlow seriously, then we can easily say that his quote contradicts canon and is therefore NONCANON.
    G. It seems that no matter how we read what Barlow says, it is NONCANON. He even contradicted himself by saying Maul > Dooku in combat more times than not.

@i_like_swords said:

@killbilly: Why do you have ANH Vader over Anakin? And what's the difference between the resurrected Maul and the real one?

Resurrected Maul is just that: Maul brought back from the dead. At the time of SWT #9 publication, Oct 2001, Maul was dead. The story is referencing TPM Maul. It is the actual Maul, brought back from the dead, hence the title, "Resurrection." Also, in one of the Sith reference books (or maybe in the novel Darth Plagueis), there is mention that sorcery could bring back people from the dead. I read this not even a week ago when looking for other info, but I skimmed several books. It's in a section where it discusses how immortality is unobtainable even though the Sith (or other dark side users) have figured out how to do several things, one of which was bringing someone back from death. This might have been in the section of DP that discusses making beasts and also how Plagueis wanted to keep his own body and not just transfer to someone else. Possibly.

The comic does say "create" and "mold" but then the acolytes go on to say "resurrect." We can argue this point repeatedly, but in the end, it's a bit pointless. Either way, the acolytes thought that Maul was the appropriate apprentice. If they did create and mold him, then they made him identical to Maul, thus, again, the title. There is nothing to suggest that the resurrected form was enhanced or diminished in any way.