Darth Tenebrous runs the Palpatine's apprentices gauntlet

Avatar image for void_reborn
Void_Reborn

3045

Forum Posts

1120

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for palpatine005
Palpatine005

112

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for redheathen
RedHeathen

2391

Forum Posts

31

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@red12789, Hey you said that Sidious blitzed TPM Maul. Where did this happen? Are you talking about in the training room?

@red12789 and @lord_tenebrous you guys discussed "standard Banite training". Is this a thing? Was there a standard set? It's been a while since I read the Bane books, so can you please help me out?

@void_reborn, How do you (and others) compare ANH Vader to ROTJ Vader?

Also, you said:

  1. "TPM Maul would even be below Grievous or prime Asajj." <-- I'm curious how you've come up with this. Is it sourced or your thoughts?
  2. "Dooku in Legends is even more hyped and powerful than his canon incarnation, who is already above canon prime Maul which is TCW Maul, also shown to be below Grievous." <-- I'm also curious about these statements.

Thanks guys!

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

5761

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@palpatine005 said:

i think luke, vader gives him a good fight. don't know that much about tenebrous tho, but he seems quite strong

You can equate Tenebrous's power to Tenebrous's debating skill.

That should give you an idea :)

Haha thanks, y'all are really too kind.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

5761

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#205  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous  Online

@redheathen:

The complete Banite education would be to absorb all of the knowledge the master possesses. But there are always the principles of Sith training, much like how most all Jedi are instructed in a certain skillset regardless of their masters.

For the Banite lineage, there would be two primary lines of knowledge -- lore the Sith accumulated over time, such as the holocrons of Freedon Nadd and Belia Darzu, and the knowledge obtained through personal exploration into the nature of the Force. Tenebrous, Plagueis & Vectivus being good examples. Thus, each generation builds upon the other not only in sheer power, but overall command of the Force.

For an apprentice to learn the latter (personal knowledge) would require personal, unique instruction -- we know Tenebrous didn't bother to truly train Plagueis this way -- but for an apprentice to learn the former (accumulated knowledge) simply requires access to the accumulated lore, and perhaps loose guidance. Unless Tenebrous deliberately prohibited Plagueis from studying Sith knowledge, Plagueis would have the standard education of any Banite.

For instance, Bane as a student applied himself and studied the accumulated lore present in the Brotherhood of Darkness' archives, then benefited from the unique, personal tutelage of Githany and Kas'im.

Avatar image for void_reborn
Void_Reborn

3045

Forum Posts

1120

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@redheathen:

"TPM Maul would even be below Grievous or prime Asajj." <-- I'm curious how you've come up with this. Is it sourced or your thoughts?

TPM Maul's best feat in dueling would honestly be him outdoing Qui-Gon with an environmental advantage and then landing a kick on enraged TPM Kenobi.

By contrast, we have General Grievous, who, in the Labyrinth of Evil novel, stalemated Mace Windu while hindered in 3 ways.

Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long.

Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries. Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. Mace could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad—the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that. In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs...

The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike.

The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary.

Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance. Mace saw by the surprised look in the cyborg's reptilian eyes that, for all his strength, dexterity, and resolve, the living part of him wasn't always in perfect sync with his alloy servos. Clearly, Grievous—onetime courageous commander of sentient troops—realized what Mace had done and wanted to sidestep, where General Grievous—current commander of droids and other war machines—wanted nothing more than to impale Mace with lunging thrusts of the paired blades.

Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed. Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep.

Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell, Mace trying to track the general's contorted plunge, but unsuccessfully. Had he fallen into the canyon? Had he managed to dig his duranium claws into the side of the car or grab hold of the mag-lev rail itself?

Mace couldn't take the time to puzzle it out. One hundred meters away, the gunboat retracted its landing gear and rose from the roof on repulsorlift power. Reckless shots from one of the pursuing gunships obliged the Separatist craft to skew, then dive, with the gunship following close behind.

-- Labyrinth of Evil

If you read that novel, it seems to be potentially implying that Mace is not confident in his ability to prolong the fight with Grievous even though Fisto had already finished off the Magnaguards and was coming to his aid from the other end of the car.

Remember that Grievous was, by the end of their long engagement, advancing steadily with a 'stalwart advance' against Mace, suggesting that, after analysing some of Vaapad, Grievous began to gain ground and an upper hand against Mace. I can only assume Grievous is slowly moving forward since his feet are magnetised. One at a time. One at a time. Severely hindered movement, again.

"The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary." - Labyrinth of Evil.

The above quote is in stark contrast from Mace's earlier thoughts here:

Mace could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad—the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.

The phrase, "but he didn't know Vaapad" seems to suggest that Mace felt, at that point in the fight, he had a trump card that could overpower this 'astonishing speed' and forcefulness that, prior to this engagement, he had never come across or ever had to deal with. At that point in the fight, Mace is seemingly fine with prolonging the contest due to the fact that Grievous doesn't know Vaapad. It's upon realizing that Grievous has analyzed his form that Mace is suddenly "not interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary." This is despite Fisto having just defeated his own opponents. One would assume that Mace would want to prolong the fight for as long as he could in order to allow Fisto to come to his aid so that they could defeat Grievous together, considering up until the end where the cyborg was advancing on him despite such restrained movement, they were stalemating all the way through. But instead, we have Mace doing everything in his power to end the fight, even utilising a trick that could have resulted in his death had Grievous's own thoughts not conflicted with his droid suggestions, as if he's lost confidence in his ability to hold out long enough for Fisto to come to his aid or doesn't think that even the both of them could take a decisive victory over the cyborg general.

I think that is really something to think about, especially since Grievous is hindered in 3 ways:

  1. Environmentally
  2. Mobility-wise
  3. Offensive output

He also has several other feats such as the Hypori battle where he basically outright stomps the 5 Jedi, two of which are council members up until Mundi makes a valiant last stand for himself but would've died regardless had the clones not arrived when they did.

I don't see how TPM Maul can scale above someone who stalemated Mace Windu and advanced against him by the end of the fight while hindered in 3 ways.

As for Ventress, I have had a change of opinion. I feel TPM Maul is better.

"Dooku in Legends is even more hyped and powerful than his canon incarnation, who is already above canon prime Maul which is TCW Maul, also shown to be below Grievous." <-- I'm also curious about these statements

Count Dooku in Legends has been directly stated by George Lucas to have been portrayed in a way to equal Yoda in the force and also stalemated Yoda for 90% of their duel even after being visibly tired and stated to be tired after having dueled Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Unlike Canon, we can go off of direct statements from GL on film intent, rather than just going by the films themselves. Mind you, the movie doesn't contradict these statements, so Dooku is factually on the same level in canon. The problem is, he has far more anti feats in canon such as losing to Quinlan Vos, taking much longer to defeat Ventress as compared to his EU version etc.

Dooku is already above TCW Maul based on their standings. Dooku is often described as a peer to Mace Windu and Yoda, which would put him very narrowly below Sidious. Maul hasn't and never will reach this level. Dooku has also proven he can outduel and dismantle the combined force of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker right before ROTS and during ROTS. This is something Maul could never hope to achieve as he couldn't beat either of them alone anyway.

Canon Grievous > Canon Maul because of the SoD Comic. Grievous outright dismisses him on the Zanbar fight which is neutral ground as compared to Maul ambushing an unarmed, unsuspecting and confused Grievous (not a fight therefore unusable). On Dathomir, Maul would be amped and he was stalemated regardless up until force pushing a distracted Grievous.

Grievous also repeatedly outfights or stomps Obi-Wan throughout TCW who is portrayed on Maul's level and as his rival. Kenobi also outdueled the combined force of Maul and Savage Opress with a slight environmental advantage.

Avatar image for red12789
Red12789

663

Forum Posts

505

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#208  Edited By Red12789

@redheathen:

Hey you said that Sidious blitzed TPM Maul. Where did this happen? Are you talking about in the training room?

Yes, and there were only 2 instances in the TPM era where Maul and Sidious are shown fighting IIRC. The other time, Maul was actually able to pressure and nearly beat Sidious, though that fight was so circumstantial that it cannot be used as a quantifiable feat for Maul. In the training room, Sidious didn't actually speedblitz Maul in a fair fight; he did so while the latter was distracted. However, Palpatine still moved faster than Maul could perceive several times, which heavily implies that he is more than capable of blitzing his apprentice.

Maul parried the blow and reversed, coming at Sidious from the opposite side. But Sidious had already vanished, leaving Maul to lunge at the empty air. As Maul lost his balance, his body fell against the cave's wall.

Sidious said from behind Maul, "You are that pathetic. You are weak. Not worthy of being a Sith Lord. I have misjudged you."

Maul's anger burned to rage. He spun fast and swung his lightsaber again, but again he failed to strike Sidious, who moved faster than he could follow.

--The Wrath of Darth Maul

Suddenly, my lightsaber is gone. It flies from my hand across the room. It lands in the hand of my Master. I never see him enter. Not if he doesn't want me to. The smile of triumph fades from my face.

"Do you think," Lord Sidious says, walking toward me, "you can ever relax your guard?"

"No, Master." What a clumsy, weak mistake. I should be prepared for him to enter at all times. How could I have forgotten that, even for a moment?

The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me. Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again," my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

A flick of his robe, and he is gone.

--Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul

"standard Banite training". Is this a thing? Was there a standard set? It's been a while since I read the Bane books, so can you please help me out?

It is customary for members of Bane's lineage to pass down all their knowledge to their apprentice, so as to make every new generation of Sith masters more powerful. The term "standard Banite training" is very nebulous however imo, since different Sith masters would presumably train their apprentices in different ways and some would refrain from teaching their apprentices all they knew (such as Tenebrous for example).