Darth Tenebrous runs the Palpatine's apprentices gauntlet

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@erkan12: What does AotC Kenobi have to do with anything though lmao? He improved astronomically during the Clone Wars...

Maul being 'better' than pre-CW Kenobi wouldn't mean anything. You've brought up a completely irrelevant point.

Wow.. Yoda... The same guy who said he doesn't want to hurt his precious Jedi padawan in another Legends source... A great counter.

I wonder why you didn't name that source, maybe because it's been retconned and debunked to death?

That's what Dooku said kiddo. Maul defeated a more powerful opponent.

Keep telling yourself that darling.

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#102  Edited By fairtrade

@erkan12 said:
@kilius said:

According to Canon Ventress > Plagueis.

Plagueis never wield a red lightsaber in the canon, try again.

He does wield a red lightsaber though, making him a red lightsaber wielder lmfao.

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#103  Edited By Erkan12

@kilius said:

@erkan12:

Maul defeated a more powerful opponent.

Going back to the original argument I don't really see how this is relevant. Dooku > Jinn as well. Kenobi fought both opponents and upon recollection deemed Dooku to be the more powerful. "He had never met such power in battle".

With the help of prior knowledge advantage, yes. :)))

Maul didn't have that advantage, yet defeats Qui-Gon, who is superior to AotC Kenobi.

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@erkan12 said:
@kilius said:

According to Canon Ventress > Plagueis.

Plagueis never wield a red lightsaber in the canon, try again.

He does wield a red lightsaber though, making him a red lightsaber wielder lmfao.

Where?

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Yoda going all out or holding back depends on the source. He holds back in the Junior Novel, never taking the offense, his goal only to stop Dooku from reaching his Solar. In the script he clearly states his intentions to kill Dooku. The Adult Novelization has Yoda going on the offensive and Dooku blocking strikes that would have otherwise been driven straight through. That tells me Yoda was pulling the stops. There is no reason to take the offensive if he didn't want to hurt Dooku. He could have just did what he did in the Junior Novel or if he was that powerful, just subdue him via Force grip. In DR though I haven't read it yet, I believe Yoda thought Dooku was coming over thus his hesitation, but in AoTC the situation was dire.

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@erkan12:

As I've already explained Maul knows Ataru as well. How does Dooku have that advantage but not Maul?

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#107  Edited By fairtrade

@kilius: I explained this in my response to you already. The proper RotS novel takes precedence over all of the others as well.

Dooku was at the very least contending well, if not matching Yoda for the majority of the fight whether on offense or defense.

@erkan12: You don't need a specific instance of Plagueis actively wielding a lightsaber for him to be considered a 'red lightsaber wielder'. He has a red lightsaber and the ability to use it...

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#108  Edited By Erkan12

@fairtrade said:

@erkan12: He has a red lightsaber and the ability to use it...

As I asked, where did he wield a red lightsaber in the canon? Stop using fanfiction.

@kilius said:

@erkan12:

As I've already explained Maul knows Ataru as well. How does Dooku have that advantage but not Maul?

Maul's main fighting style is a hybrid Juyo / Teras Kasi combination. What kind of stupid counter argument is this?

@kilius said:

Yoda going all out or holding back depends on the source. He holds back in the Junior Novel, never taking the offense, his goal only to stop Dooku from reaching his Solar. In the script he clearly states his intentions to kill Dooku. The Adult Novelization has Yoda going on the offensive and Dooku blocking strikes that would have otherwise been driven straight through. That tells me Yoda was pulling the stops. There is no reason to take the offensive if he didn't want to hurt Dooku. He could have just did what he did in the Junior Novel or if he was that powerful, just subdue him via Force grip. In DR though I haven't read it yet, I believe Yoda thought Dooku was coming over thus his hesitation, but in AoTC the situation was dire.

In the Dark Rendezvous, he says he doesn't want to hurt Dookie, why it would be any different in AotC? In AotC he doesn't even know what the fuck is going on with Dooku, he just learned on that day that Dooku turned to the dark side, and expecting from Yoda to destroy his former Jedi padawan without holding back is idiotic at best. Even Mace (much more aggressive in comparison with Yoda) was massively holding back against Sora Bulq just because he was his friend.

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@erkan12: And as I said, he doesn't need to be shown wielding one you clown. We know he has a red lightsaber and the ability use it. Making him a wielder.

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#111  Edited By fairtrade

@richard96: I get caught in a trap, I can't help it.

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@erkan12:

Maul's main fighting style is a hybrid Juyo / Teras Kasi combination. What kind of stupid counter argument is this?

Juyo requires mastery of multiple forms. Of the other Forms we know Maul is a master of Niman and as per Maul: Lockdown we know he uses Ataru as well. Given that you need at least to master at least two Forms before attempting to learn Juyo, it's probably safe to say his prerequisite Forms were Niman and Ataru. If Maul is familiar with Ataru then obviously he's going to be familiar with it's weaknesses, just like your are arguing Dooku is.

They both have master level knowledge of Ataru and thus the same advantage against Kenobi.

Kenobi deemed Dooku more overpowering because he was more powerful. "Never before had he met such power in battle".

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@fairtrade:

Come on man, are you really wasting your time debating with Erkan12? You deserve better.

Richard96 I know you're not bright, but do you realise you're talking with a dupe account from another site? Maybe you can tell me who is this dupe account is and why he deserves better? :)))) I know I am expecting much from you considering your intelligence, in the end you're a new account though, only 1 year in here after all but at least pretend as if you're smart and be silent.

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@erkan12: And as I said, he doesn't need to be shown wielding one you clown. We know he has a red lightsaber and the ability use it. Making him a wielder.

Omg, your fanfic logic is blowing my mind.

''We know he has a red lightsaber'' - Who is we? Are you from Lucasfilm storygroup? Omg this is a great honor.

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#115  Edited By Erkan12

@kilius said:

@erkan12:

Maul's main fighting style is a hybrid Juyo / Teras Kasi combination. What kind of stupid counter argument is this?

Juyo requires mastery of multiple forms. Of the other Forms we know Maul is a master of Niman and as per Maul: Lockdown we know he uses Ataru as well. Given that you need at least to master at least two Forms before attempting to learn Juyo, it's probably safe to say his prerequisite Forms were Niman and Ataru. If Maul is familiar with Ataru then obviously he's going to be familiar with it's weaknesses, just like your are arguing Dooku is.

They both have master level knowledge of Ataru and thus the same advantage against Kenobi.

Kenobi deemed Dooku more overpowering because he was more powerful. "Never before had he met such power in battle".

Of course he knows Ataru, but not like Dooku who was Qui-Gon's master and dueled with him thousands of times in the past, Maul's Ataru knowledge can't be compared with Dooku's specific knowledge over Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's Ataru. Dooku has a direct knowledge about Qui-Gon's style and his padawan, while Obi-Wan didn't even know Dooku's form. Dooku already started the fight 1-0 against AotC Kenobi without even needing his superior Force powers. Maul never observed or gained any knowledge about Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's fighting style before the duel. We know that kind of advantage is a game changer as we've seen from the Ventress and Kit Fisto duel, and the difference between their Force powers wasn't even close to the difference between Dooku and AotC Kenobi. It's only natural that Kenobi lost that fight very badly.

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#117  Edited By Kilius

@erkan12:

Maul's Ataru knowledge can't be compared with Dooku's specific knowledge over Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's Ataru.

Dooku only has hands on knowledge of Qui-Gon's specific style of fighting. Kenobi's is distinct. Just like Qui-Gon's style is distinct from Dooku's, just like Dooku's style is distinct from Yoda's.

Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataru form, with its ridiculous acrobatics.

The text is referring to Ataru's weakness in a general sense, not weaknesses specific only to Jinn; Jinn doesn't even use acrobatics. Theses are weaknesses Maul who is a master of Ataru should be knowledgeable of.

Dooku has a direct knowledge about Qui-Gon's style and his padawan, while Obi-Wan didn't even know Dooku's form.

Actually Kenobi was aware of Dooku's Form:

Obi-Wan remembered Jocasta Nu telling him, With a lightsaber, in the old style of fencing, he had no match. Now he could see what she meant. Unfortunately.

Source: Attack of the Clones Junior Novelization

Maul never observed or gained any knowledge about Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's fighting style before the duel.

Maul did gain some knowledge of Qui-Gon's fighting style during their first duel. By you're standards this would be a useful advantage. Qui-Gon and Kenobi on the other hand didn't have any knowledge of the Double-Lightsaber. He also had loads of prep as per Endgame. I did an outline for another Viner, I'll copy and paste it here:

@kilius said:To start with Maul wants to make sure the Queen makes it too the hanger without much resistance. So the Jedi won't worry about her and focus on him.

He took his speeder bike directly too the hanger, where close to four hundred B1 battle droids were patrolling the area. That was far too many to be easily defeated by Amidala and here handful of security officers and pilots. With help from the Jedi it was possible Naboo would eventually overcome the battle droids, but wanted to ensure that Amidala's small force would be able to move on to the palace without encountering too much resistance. More important he didn't want Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan to worry too much about her safety.

He then orders OOM-9 to redeploy the troops and leave only sixty in the hanger. Insisting that he would personally make up for the reduced amount.

He anticipates the ensuing fire fight with the droids almost to the letter. He worries that the Queen might assume the entrance to the palace from the hanger is booby trapped and end up taking a longer route through the Vis District, where he would have a hard time controlling the fight.

Maul's gaze sweptthe hangars broad entrance. A tunnel linked the hangar to the Palace, but Amadala would certainly assume that it had been bobby-trapped, and would likely lead the Jedi and her infiltration team across the eastern fork of the Solleu River and through the narrow paths and across the skybridges of the Vis district. But a lightsaber duel fought along that route or in the woods that surrounded the Palace would be difficult to control. Somehow he had to waylay the Jedi before they exited the building. Again he scanned the dim interior, and his gaze fell on the tall blast doors that separated the hanger from the contiguous power generator building. On his earlier visit to the hangar he had done little more than peer into the plasma power station, but now eager to know what lay beyond the blast doors, he hurried thought them.

He then familiarizes himself with the catwalk and the surrounding interior committing it to muscle memory.

Maul paced halfway to the door, then returned to the inspection platform and paced it a second time, marking the length and calculating the distances between it and the catwalks above and below. Several times he leapt to higher or lower catwalks. Once he had committed the arrangement to both mental and muscle memory, he walked all the way to the far door and though it.

He then comes across the laser barriers and discerns a patter for their activation and uses it to his advantage.

The door opened on a soaring security hallway, interrupted at regular intervals by laser gates that sealed themselves in response to power outputs of the plasma activation process. Initially the firings seemed to occur randomly, but after he passed thorough the gates several times in both directions---cautiously at first, then as quickly as he could---Maul began to discern a subtle pattern. The pattern was by no means foolproof, and twice he came close to being fried by the firings, but in the end he had learned enough about the timing of the gates to provide himself with a slight advantage.

After coming to the plasma chamber and testing it's depth. He imagines he can direct how the lightsaber duel will unfold, with all his accumulated knowledge.

Maul paced the circular rim of the core, gazing down into blackness; then he turned from the view to imagine and to direct how the lightsaber duel would unfold. He would use the laser gates to separate the Jedi. He looked around. Yes: he would kill one of them just there. As for the other . . .

Well, he'd allow himself a surprise or two.

Maul had the advantage of prep and an unfamiliar weapon. Now to be fair I do actually think Jinn has knowledge of Juyo and Teras Kasi do to his experience in sparing with Anoon Bondara, who is a master of both, but he wouldn't know about the double-lightsaber so Maul still has the advantage as far as unfamiliar styles go. Kenobi on the other hand likely doesn't have any knowledge of Maul's style, not only that as I've said Maul still has the same knowledge as Dooku does of Ataru's weakness.

Finally you keep ignoring the crucial point in the highlighted text: "He had never before faced such power in battle before"

Kenobi isn't talking about saber styles here, he's referring to Tyranus's darkside augmented power. It matches up with another statement:

He found himself hard-pressed to hold against the dark side-augmented strength of his opponent, even though his own abilities with the Force were far from slight.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #49 (Relaunched)

Kenobi was struggling with Dooku's skill and his dark side augmented strength. "Never had he faced such power in battle before"

Legends Dooku > Legends Maul in power, at least of TPM.

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#118  Edited By fairtrade

@erkan12: Is this a joke? Why would it need to be specified that Plagueis has a lightsaber? It's not only reasonable to assume as much, but it's the norm for all canon Sith. Why would he be any different? Plagueis would be the exception to an established rule and would thus need to be singled out, which hasn't happened.

We have no reason to assume otherwise. Why would he be the only one to not at some point have a lightsaber? Why is Plagueis the anomaly?

- You have not proven why he would be the exception to the rule.

- You have not proven that he is the exception to the rule.

Thanks for your entertainment tonight Erkan, it's staggering that you've been on these forums for so long and have shown not even the slightest sign of improvement.

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#119  Edited By HitTheAssasin

@erkan12: Which, unfortunately for you, is outnumbered by the quotes that confirm Dooku is superior to TPM Maul, which is the Maul your book is referring too.

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#120  Edited By Erkan12

@erkan12:

You are just too funny. Too funny. If you don’t exist, someone should invent you.

You continue to amaze me with your intelligence, why Dooku fanboys are always like this? :)))

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@erkan12: Which, unfortunately for you, is outnumbered by the quotes that confirm Dooku is superior to TPM Maul, which is the Maul your book is referring too.

AotC Kenobi's inferiority against Dooku was form based disadvantage as I've proved with the evidences from the Legends source.

If you really think what Kenobi think about Dooku in Legends, here you go;

"Come on, then, Kenobi! Come for me!" he said. "I have been trained in your Jedi arts by Lord Tyranus himself."

"Do you mean Count Dooku? What a curious coincidence," Obi-Wan said with a deceptively pleasant smile. "I trained the man who killed him."

With a convulsive snarl, Grievous lunged.

Revenge of the Sith Novel
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#122  Edited By Erkan12

@kilius said:

Maul had the advantage of prep and an unfamiliar weapon. Now to be fair I do actually think Jinn has knowledge of Juyo and Teras Kasi do to his experience in sparing with Anoon Bondara, who is a master of both, but he wouldn't know about the double-lightsaber so Maul still has the advantage as far as unfamiliar styles go. Kenobi on the other hand likely doesn't have any knowledge of Maul's style, not only that as I've said Maul still has the same knowledge as Dooku does of Ataru's weakness.

Finally you keep ignoring the crucial point in the highlighted text: "He had never before faced such power in battle before"

Kenobi isn't talking about saber styles here, he's referring to Tyranus's darkside augmented power. It matches up with another statement:

He found himself hard-pressed to hold against the dark side-augmented strength of his opponent, even though his own abilities with the Force were far from slight.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #49 (Relaunched)

Kenobi was struggling with Dooku's skill and his dark side augmented strength. "Never had he faced such power in battle before"

Legends Dooku > Legends Maul in power, at least of TPM.

Knowledge isn't excluded from power, without the knowledge you can't be powerful. We've hundreds of quotes about how the Force users are getting more powerful through knowledge, Dooku's prior knowledge about Kenobi's style gave him a massive upper-hand in the duel, unlike Maul who didn't know Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's style as good as Dooku.

That's also why Dooku fucked up against an unpredictable fighter such as Quinlan Vos. His knowledge over the Jedi fighting styles didn't work on Unpredictable Vos who was nothing like a classic Jedi Knight such as Kenobi.

@kilius said:

Dooku has a direct knowledge about Qui-Gon's style and his padawan, while Obi-Wan didn't even know Dooku's form.

Actually Kenobi was aware of Dooku's Form:

Obi-Wan remembered Jocasta Nu telling him, With a lightsaber, in the old style of fencing, he had no match. Now he could see what she meant. Unfortunately.

Source: Attack of the Clones Junior Novelization

.

Thanks for providing the quote which says Kenobi had no idea about Dooku's fighting style but its name.

@kilius said:

Maul never observed or gained any knowledge about Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's fighting style before the duel.

Maul did gain some knowledge of Qui-Gon's fighting style during their first duel. By you're standards this would be a useful advantage. Qui-Gon and Kenobi on the other hand didn't have any knowledge of the Double-Lightsaber. He also had loads of prep as per Endgame. I did an outline for another Viner, I'll copy and paste it here:

@kilius said:To start with Maul wants to make sure the Queen makes it too the hanger without much resistance. So the Jedi won't worry about her and focus on him.

He took his speeder bike directly too the hanger, where close to four hundred B1 battle droids were patrolling the area. That was far too many to be easily defeated by Amidala and here handful of security officers and pilots. With help from the Jedi it was possible Naboo would eventually overcome the battle droids, but wanted to ensure that Amidala's small force would be able to move on to the palace without encountering too much resistance. More important he didn't want Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan to worry too much about her safety.

He then orders OOM-9 to redeploy the troops and leave only sixty in the hanger. Insisting that he would personally make up for the reduced amount.

He anticipates the ensuing fire fight with the droids almost to the letter. He worries that the Queen might assume the entrance to the palace from the hanger is booby trapped and end up taking a longer route through the Vis District, where he would have a hard time controlling the fight.

Maul's gaze sweptthe hangars broad entrance. A tunnel linked the hangar to the Palace, but Amadala would certainly assume that it had been bobby-trapped, and would likely lead the Jedi and her infiltration team across the eastern fork of the Solleu River and through the narrow paths and across the skybridges of the Vis district. But a lightsaber duel fought along that route or in the woods that surrounded the Palace would be difficult to control. Somehow he had to waylay the Jedi before they exited the building. Again he scanned the dim interior, and his gaze fell on the tall blast doors that separated the hanger from the contiguous power generator building. On his earlier visit to the hangar he had done little more than peer into the plasma power station, but now eager to know what lay beyond the blast doors, he hurried thought them.

He then familiarizes himself with the catwalk and the surrounding interior committing it to muscle memory.

Maul paced halfway to the door, then returned to the inspection platform and paced it a second time, marking the length and calculating the distances between it and the catwalks above and below. Several times he leapt to higher or lower catwalks. Once he had committed the arrangement to both mental and muscle memory, he walked all the way to the far door and though it.

He then comes across the laser barriers and discerns a patter for their activation and uses it to his advantage.

The door opened on a soaring security hallway, interrupted at regular intervals by laser gates that sealed themselves in response to power outputs of the plasma activation process. Initially the firings seemed to occur randomly, but after he passed thorough the gates several times in both directions---cautiously at first, then as quickly as he could---Maul began to discern a subtle pattern. The pattern was by no means foolproof, and twice he came close to being fried by the firings, but in the end he had learned enough about the timing of the gates to provide himself with a slight advantage.

After coming to the plasma chamber and testing it's depth. He imagines he can direct how the lightsaber duel will unfold, with all his accumulated knowledge.

Maul paced the circular rim of the core, gazing down into blackness; then he turned from the view to imagine and to direct how the lightsaber duel would unfold. He would use the laser gates to separate the Jedi. He looked around. Yes: he would kill one of them just there. As for the other . . .

Well, he'd allow himself a surprise or two.

Comparing a single short clash to Dooku's and Qui-Gon's ''thousands of times'' duels... Seriously?

And I guess you also don't have any idea about how identical Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's styles were as Ataru users.

@fairtrade said:

@erkan12: Is this a joke? Why would it need to be specified that Plagueis has a lightsaber? It's not only reasonable to assume as much, but it's the norm for all canon Sith. Why would he be any different? Plagueis would be the exception to an established rule and would thus need to be singled out, which hasn't happened.

We have no reason to assume otherwise. Why would he be the only one to not at some point have a lightsaber? Why is Plagueis the anomaly?

- You have not proven why he would be the exception to the rule.

- You have not proven that he is the exception to the rule.

Thanks for your entertainment tonight Erkan, it's staggering that you've been on these forums for so long and have shown not even the slightest sign of improvement.

Why would anyone with a brain put Plagueis on that list while he doesn't even have a single appearance as a duelist in the new canon?

You didn't surprise me at all fairtrade, you're still a bad troll with a dupe account.

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Kilius

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@erkan12:

Knowledge isn't excluded from power, without the knowledge you can't be powerful. We've hundreds of quotes about how the Force users are getting more powerful through knowledge, Dooku's prior knowledge about Kenobi's style gave him a massive upper-hand in the duel, unlike Maul who didn't know Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's style as good as Dooku.

Yeah but that's not applicable in this situation. Kenobi is referring to Dooku's power in a very raw sense. It's clear from the text I highlighted. If it was a skill advantage he would have said something along the lines of "his lightsaber skills could not match Tyranus's supieror form" or something to that effect.

"He found himself hard-pressed to hold against the dark side-augmented strength of his opponent, even though his own abilities with the Force were far from slight."

"Never had he faced such power before in a battle"

Kenobi is clearly struggling against Dooku's power in a very raw sense.

That's also why Dooku fucked up against an unpredictable fighter such as Quinlan Vos. His knowledge over the Jedi fighting styles didn't work on Unpredictable Vos who was nothing like a classic Jedi Knight such as Kenobi.

That's Canon, it isn't relevant in Legends Dooku discussion.

Comparing a single short clash to Dooku's and Qui-Gon's ''thousands of times'' duels... Seriously?

You said Maul didn't have any knowledge of their fighting styles or any external advantages to boot, I provided evidence to the contrary.

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#124  Edited By Erkan12

@kilius said:

@erkan12:

Knowledge isn't excluded from power, without the knowledge you can't be powerful. We've hundreds of quotes about how the Force users are getting more powerful through knowledge, Dooku's prior knowledge about Kenobi's style gave him a massive upper-hand in the duel, unlike Maul who didn't know Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's style as good as Dooku.

Yeah but that's not applicable in this situation. Kenobi is referring to Dooku's power in a very raw sense. It's clear from the text I highlighted. If it was a skill advantage he would have said something along the lines of "his lightsaber skills could not match Tyranus's supieror form" or something to that effect.

"He found himself hard-pressed to hold against the dark side-augmented strength of his opponent, even though his own abilities with the Force were far from slight."

"Never had he faced such power before in a battle"

Kenobi is clearly struggling against Dooku's power in a very raw sense.

What do you understand from ''never come up against something that had completely overpowered him'' -'' completely''?

-''so as to be complete; with everything necessary;''

In everyway, which includes the prior knowledge advantage which explained in the RotS novelization.

TPM Novelization already said that even a rage amped TPM Kenobi was no match for TPM Maul, the only difference here is that Maul wasn't an expert about Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's fighting style like Dooku was.

@kilius said:

That's also why Dooku fucked up against an unpredictable fighter such as Quinlan Vos. His knowledge over the Jedi fighting styles didn't work on Unpredictable Vos who was nothing like a classic Jedi Knight such as Kenobi.

That's Canon, it isn't relevant in Legends Dooku discussion.

I was giving an example on how his style knowledge affects the duels, we've seen in the Cestus Deception, Ventress is like a mini-Dookie and she gained an advantage by observing the fighting styles of Fisto and Kenobi before. Dooku taught her well on observing the fighting styles and using it her own advantage.

@kilius said:

Comparing a single short clash to Dooku's and Qui-Gon's ''thousands of times'' duels... Seriously?

You said Maul didn't have any knowledge of their fighting styles or any external advantages to boot, I provided evidence to the contrary.

It's not comparable. Qui-Gon also learned a little bit about Maul. The problem is that Dooku was an expert on Obi-Wan's style while Obi-Wan didn't know Dooku's.

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@erkan12:

What do you understand from ''never come up against something that had completely overpowered him'' -'' completely''?

-''so as to be complete; with everything necessary;''

In everyway, which includes the prior knowledge advantage which explained in the RotS novelization.

TPM Novelization already said that even a rage amped TPM Kenobi was no match for TPM Maul, the only difference here is that Maul wasn't an expert about Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's fighting style like Dooku was.

My original point was Legends Dooku > TPM Maul in power. In that paragraph we have "Never had he faced such power before in battle". Kenobi was experiencing Tyranus's darkside power and had never before experienced it's like. This includes TPM Maul. The last sentence is a different thing; overpowering Kenobi completely. I'm aware of Dooku's knowledge advantage would affect the outcome, that doesn't change the fact that Dooku is more powerful in the Darkside than TPM Maul, at least in Legends. Maul had special circumstances too, such as an unfamiliar weapon, an unfamiliar fighting style; at least in Kenobi's case, knowledge of their fighting Forms in Ataru, and prep and an environmental advantage.

I was giving an example on how his style knowledge affects the duels, we've seen in the Cestus Deception, Ventress is like a mini-Dookie and she gained an advantage by observing the fighting styles of Fisto and Kenobi before. Dooku taught her well on observing the fighting styles and using it her own advantage.

I agree knowledge of ones fighting style can make a difference. It doesn't detract from my original argument of Legends Dooku being more powerful than Legends TPM Maul.

It's not comparable. Qui-Gon also learned a little bit about Maul. The problem is that Dooku was an expert on Obi-Wan's style while Obi-Wan didn't know Dooku's.

Obi-Wan didn't learn anything on Maul though and Jinn still didn't have prior knowledge of the Double-Lightsaber. I think I've already addressed the last point.

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Well, this is all out war

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Kilius

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#128  Edited By fairtrade

Since it's okay to use dated, retconned sources...

Episode I Visual Dictionary

"With his double-bladed lightsabre, Maul is equal to two Jedi who are unprepared for his powers. Since the Sith disappeared almost 1,000 years ago, Jedi are not used to facing opponents with lightsabres."

"Obi-Wan is an exceptional lightsabre duelist and a formidable opponent for Darth Maul."

Qui-Gon = Kenobi = Maul, ChEcKmaTe.

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He outclassed Maul, Dooku and Vader, but I think Luke as of Dark Empire could come out on top in a good fight. After that he's got no shot.

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Kilius

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OT he stops at 5 for sure. Not sure about 4 since I haven't read DE. But he certainly isn't taking on all three even though he should be comfortably above all of them individually.

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#132  Edited By Erkan12

@kilius said:

@erkan12:

What do you understand from ''never come up against something that had completely overpowered him'' -'' completely''?

-''so as to be complete; with everything necessary;''

In everyway, which includes the prior knowledge advantage which explained in the RotS novelization.

TPM Novelization already said that even a rage amped TPM Kenobi was no match for TPM Maul, the only difference here is that Maul wasn't an expert about Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's fighting style like Dooku was.

My original point was Legends Dooku > TPM Maul in power.

Which is not true. Sidious would choose Dooku as an apprentice not pre-TPM Maul. The reason why he chose Anakin because of Anakin's raw power, Maul had the better potential than Dooku, plain and simple. As Sidious said in the Legends (not only in Canon) Maul was the best choice, not Dooku.

@kilius said:

In that paragraph we have "Never had he faced such power before in battle". Kenobi was experiencing Tyranus's darkside power and had never before experienced it's like. This includes TPM Maul. The last sentence is a different thing; overpowering Kenobi completely. I'm aware of Dooku's knowledge advantage would affect the outcome, that doesn't change the fact that Dooku is more powerful in the Darkside than TPM Maul, at least in Legends. Maul had special circumstances too, such as an unfamiliar weapon, an unfamiliar fighting style; at least in Kenobi's case, knowledge of their fighting Forms in Ataru, and prep and an environmental advantage.

Yes, he never felt that power before because Dooku was a tier 8 fighter with a prior knowledge advantage, which would stomp AotC Kenobi and he almost did. By saying ''Power'' you imply his Force powers, Dooku never used TK on AotC Kenobi during the duel, so Kenobi is talking about his inferiority against Dooku's saber skills.

@kilius said:

I was giving an example on how his style knowledge affects the duels, we've seen in the Cestus Deception, Ventress is like a mini-Dookie and she gained an advantage by observing the fighting styles of Fisto and Kenobi before. Dooku taught her well on observing the fighting styles and using it her own advantage.

I agree knowledge of ones fighting style can make a difference. It doesn't detract from my original argument of Legends Dooku being more powerful than Legends TPM Maul.

Which is stupid, as I said, Dooku was available as of TPM and Sidious would choose Dooku if he was more powerful than Maul.

@kilius said:

It's not comparable. Qui-Gon also learned a little bit about Maul. The problem is that Dooku was an expert on Obi-Wan's style while Obi-Wan didn't know Dooku's.

Obi-Wan didn't learn anything on Maul though and Jinn still didn't have prior knowledge of the Double-Lightsaber. I think I've already addressed the last point.

How many double-bladed lightsaber users existed in the Jedi order? Every Jedi Temple Guard was using a double-bladed saber. It's stupid to say that Jinn doesn't have any knowledge about the double-bladed lightsaber.

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#133  Edited By Kilius

@erkan12:

Which is not true. Sidious would choose Dooku as an apprentice not pre-TPM Maul.

That presumes that Dooku was available. Dooku was still loyal to the Jedi Order at this time. A chain of events was needed to completely break his resolve; the Battle of Galidraan, where dozens of Jedi died for a senseless cause, the failure in his eyes of both of his apprentices, and the death of Qui-Gon being the final straw in 32 BBY. It's not like Palpatine could just walk up to Dooku in 52 BBY, reveal his identity as a Sith Lord and expect there to not be consequences. Palpatine didn't know of Maul's potential, only that he was a infant who could be raised to be a powerful asset; Talzin being Mauls mother is Canon only.

Maul had the better potential than Dooku, plain and simple. . . As Sidious said in the Legends (not only in Canon) Maul was the best choice, not Dooku.

Source? Even if he does have more potential; which is distinct from actual power, it doesn't change the fact that Tyranus was more powerful than Maul at the time of TPM.

By saying ''Power'' you imply his Force powers, Dooku never used TK on AotC Kenobi during the duel, so Kenobi is talking about his inferiority against Dooku's saber skills.

No by power it could very well mean his Darkside Force augmentation abilities.

He found himself hard-pressed to hold against the dark side-augmented strength of his opponent, even though his own abilities with the Force were far from slight.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #49 (Relaunched)

Kenobi never used TK in this duel what does he mean when it says "his own abilities with the Force were far from slight"? It means his own Force augmentation couldn't compare to Tyranus's. Power in this context is clearly referring to augmentation. Tyranus has superior dark side augmentation to TPM Maul. That's a fact in Legends.

Which is stupid, as I said, Dooku was available as of TPM and Sidious would choose Dooku if he was more powerful than Maul.

Dooku only became "available" after the death of Qui-Gon which coincides with the death of Maul and Plagueis, who was keeping a close eye on Dooku for that very same possibility should something have happened to Sidious. It's not like Sidious had anyway of know who was more powerful or if Dooku would even accept his offer or if this wouldn't cause a fallout with Plagueis. He had a perfectly capable Sith Apprentice on hand, fully trained and perfectly loyal. There was no need for unnecessary risks. Not to mention Jedi Master Dooku < Darth Tyranus.

How many double-bladed lightsaber users existed in the Jedi order? Every Jedi Temple Guard was using a double-bladed saber. It's stupid to say that Jinn doesn't have any knowledge about the double-bladed lightsaber.

Yeah I guess it's a retcon. Plagueis exclaimed in surprise when Maul revealed his double-bladed lightsaber and Sidious modeled it off of Exar Kun. One of many reasons why TCW should only be considered Canon; it doesn't mesh with Legends continuity, but I digress, that's a different rant.Even with that knowing a weapon and learing how to effectively fight against it are two different things:

"Because the weapon is difficult to master, however, few among the Jedi-or even the Sith-understand it. They don't know how to attack or defend effectively against it. That gives those of us who use it an advantage over most of our opponents." Path of Destruction

For the sake of the argument I'll agree. Maul still has prep, an unfamiliar style(to Kenobi), knowledge of the Jedi's fighting Forms, and an Environmental advantage. Maul still had plenty of favorable circumstances.

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HitTheAssasin

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@erkan12: erkan12: Comparing a taunt from ROTS Kenobi about Dooku after he died to an objective analysis from AOTC/TCW Kenobi shortly after his encounter with the Count is nothing short of preposterous.

If you think AOTC Kenobi's decisive loss to a holding back Dooku was based exclusively on a form disadvantage despite Kenobi never once using the Ataru flips and acrobatics Dooku knows how to exploit, Fooku never using any of his "anti-Ataru" tactics(like he did in ROTS) nor this ever being mentioned in any source, I don't know what to say to you.

Besides, when it comes to performances against Kenobi, Maul can't talk. Despite using a weapon Obi-Wan had absolutely no training against and having studied the terrain beforehand, he got his lightsaber chopped in half by TPM Kenobi. Sure, he was rage amped, but with him being a Jedi and all, I can guarantee you that Dooku would have still destroyed him in about 5 seconds flat. Maul's performance is undeniably plain shite.

There's 1 quote confirming Maul is superior to Dooku and 2 that claim the opposite. The Maul one is very questionable, the others are not. I think you should be able to figure out the conclusion at this point.

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#135  Edited By LordOfTheLight

LMFAO at AoTC Obi Wan being inferior to Qui Gon

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#136  Edited By Erkan12

@hittheassasin: You've no idea how being amped affects the fights in SW. The most basic example is ; Kanan, he wasn't exactly a match for the Inquisitor until he got his amplification and defeated the Inquisitor. ESB Luke performed well against Vader only because he was amped. Dooku never faced with Kenobi when Kenobi was amped, any comparison regarding the two fights is idiotic at best. TPM Kenobi was no match for Maul, even when it was 2 v 1 with Qui-Gon (who is better than AotC Kenobi by Dooku's admission) Maul was superior to the duo.

@kilius said:

@erkan12:

Which is not true. Sidious would choose Dooku as an apprentice not pre-TPM Maul.

That presumes that Dooku was available. Dooku was still loyal to the Jedi Order at this time. A chain of events was needed to completely break his resolve; the Battle of Galidraan, where dozens of Jedi died for a senseless cause, the failure in his eyes of both of his apprentices, and the death of Qui-Gon being the final straw in 32 BBY. It's not like Palpatine could just walk up to Dooku in 52 BBY, reveal his identity as a Sith Lord and expect there to not be consequences. Palpatine didn't know of Maul's potential, only that he was a infant who could be raised to be a powerful asset; Talzin being Mauls mother is Canon only.

Sidious could easily turn him to the dark side as he did after the Naboo events. That's not an excuse. Why would Sidious waste time with Maul while he could've a better apprentice? He did the same thing with Anakin, but he wasn't going to do the same thing with Dooku in TPM, Maul was his true choice.

@kilius said:

Maul had the better potential than Dooku, plain and simple. . . As Sidious said in the Legends (not only in Canon) Maul was the best choice, not Dooku.

Source?

Sidious considered him as his successor in the Maul: Lockdown. Dooku was never considered as one.

@kilius said:

Even if he does have more potential; which is distinct from actual power, it doesn't change the fact that Tyranus was more powerful than Maul at the time of TPM.

As I said, he ''completely'' overpowered AotC Kenobi due to prior form knowledge advantage.

Both Dooku and TPM Maul were tier 8 fighters according to Gillard, the power difference is minimum even if there is one.

@kilius said:

By saying ''Power'' you imply his Force powers, Dooku never used TK on AotC Kenobi during the duel, so Kenobi is talking about his inferiority against Dooku's saber skills.

No by power it could very well mean his Darkside Force augmentation abilities.

He found himself hard-pressed to hold against the dark side-augmented strength of his opponent, even though his own abilities with the Force were far from slight.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #49 (Relaunched)

And Maul used his dark-side powers to blunt Kenobi's usage of the Force even when Qui-Gon (again who is a more formidable fighter than AotC Kenobi) was around. I don't remember anything like that from Dooku.

@kilius said:

Kenobi never used TK in this duel what does he mean when it says "his own abilities with the Force were far from slight"? It means his own Force augmentation couldn't compare to Tyranus's. Power in this context is clearly referring to augmentation. Tyranus has superior dark side augmentation to TPM Maul. That's a fact in Legends.

You're making this shit up, Maul was as fresh as ever when Kenobi was tired, the novel directly says that. It has nothing to do with superior dark side augmentation.

Plus Makashi is a very useful form when it comes to not wasting too much stamina, that's also a stylistic advantage.

@kilius said:

Which is stupid, as I said, Dooku was available as of TPM and Sidious would choose Dooku if he was more powerful than Maul.

Dooku only became "available" after the death of Qui-Gon which coincides with the death of Maul and Plagueis, who was keeping a close eye on Dooku for that very same possibility should something have happened to Sidious. It's not like Sidious had anyway of know who was more powerful or if Dooku would even accept his offer or if this wouldn't cause a fallout with Plagueis. He had a perfectly capable Sith Apprentice on hand, fully trained and perfectly loyal. There was no need for unnecessary risks. Not to mention Jedi Master Dooku < Darth Tyranus.

Dooku was already going to leave the Jedi order even without Qui-Gon's death, if Sidious believed Dooku would be a better apprentice he wouldn't waste any time with Maul and he would turn Dooku to dark side before the events of Naboo.

You're making up excuses in here.

@kilius said:

For the sake of the argument I'll agree. Maul still has prep, an unfamiliar style(to Kenobi), knowledge of the Jedi's fighting Forms, and an Environmental advantage. Maul still had plenty of favorable circumstances.

Maul's knowledge of the Jedi fighting forms is no where near close to Dooku's form knowledge advantage.

And not even mention Dooku's special advantage due to dueling with Qui-Gon for thousands of times. Considering how easily Ventress defeated Kit Fisto and AotC Kenobi by using that prior knowledge advantage only, AotC Kenobi duel has became even more one-sided for Dooku who was already better than Kenobi at the time.

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#137  Edited By HitTheAssasin

@erkan12: One more thing. The reason Sidious considered Maul his successor at the time, but not Tyranus a decade later is simple and obvious: Anakin. At the time Sidious thought of Maul as his successor, he didn't know there was someone as powerful as Anakin out there. With Dooku, however, he knew since the beginning.

Another factor is simply age. Maul was in his 20's(IIRC) and could thus properly continue on the lineage of the Sith after Sidious potential demise, where as Dooku was over 80 and there would be a grave danger the later could simply die before training a Sith Apprentice of his own(or accomplishing anything of note), breaking the cycle.

So, that silly argument about Maul being superior to Dooku because he was personally worth more to Sidious? Debunked.

I also note with satisfaction that you don't address either of my 2 main points, but only the side argumemt meant as more of a snide remark. I take it you conceded them, since they're ridiculous?

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Gillard has said the gaps in the levels is “like a Richter scale”

Just between 8&9 that’s a 32x times gap. Dooku can be 10 times more powerful than Maul and still be in the same tier.

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fairtrade

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He outclassed Maul, Dooku and Vader, but I think Luke as of Dark Empire could come out on top in a good fight. After that he's got no shot.

How?

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#140  Edited By LordOfTheLight

Repeatedly stating that Qui Gon is better than AoTC Kenobi doesn't make it true. The notion is preposterous anyways if one has common sense.

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#141  Edited By LordOfTheLight

The thing is

ROTS Sidious>>>EoTPM Sidious>>>SoTPM Sidious>Plagueis>Tenebrous

There is no way that the gap between ROTS Sidious and Dooku is even nearly that vast. Dooku basically managed to contend with a level 9 fighter in Anakin when almost all of his reserves were exhausted for a pretty decent length of time in the novel leading to the conclusion that he would manage to last for a pretty good amount of time if he was at full power there. That basically supplements his duels with Yoda there and supports the multiple statements that confirm that Yoda was indeed going all out on him in his duels there.

Even if Tenebrous can beat Dooku it will be an extremely close battle. IMO unless Tenebrous brings something esoteric to the table he loses here. Dooku is better than him in lightsaber combat and has enough power to compete at the very least here.

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#142  Edited By fairtrade

@lordofthelight said:

ROTS Sidious>/=Dooku>>EoTPM Sidious>>>SoTPM Sidious>Plagueis>Tenebrous>Vader

There is no way that the gap between ROTS Sidious and Dooku is even nearly that vast.

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Gillard has said the gaps in the levels is “like a Richter scale”

Just between 8&9 that’s a 32x times gap. Dooku can be 10 times more powerful than Maul and still be in the same tier.

Lmao. So Dooku failed to stomp AotC Anakin despite being 2 tiers ahead of him? Which makes him 64xtimes more powerful than AotC Anakin.

Nick Gillard : "Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting, it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."

Repeatedly stating that Qui Gon is better than AoTC Kenobi doesn't make it true. The notion is preposterous anyways if one has common sense.

Dooku says he expected much more from Qui-Gon's former padawan.

He either believes

- Qui-Gon can train people to get more powerful than even himself or

- Qui-Gon was stronger than his former apprentice AotC Kenobi.

Pick one. Dooku fanboys are always entertaining.

@erkan12: One more thing. The reason Sidious considered Maul his successor at the time, but not Tyranus a decade later is simple and obvious: Anakin. At the time Sidious thought of Maul as his successor, he didn't know there was someone as powerful as Anakin out there. With Dooku, however, he knew since the beginning.

Maul has chosen to be an apprentice while Dooku was still around at the time of TPM. Sidious wouldn't choose an inferior apprentice while he could have a more powerful one, as we've seen what he did with Anakin and Dooku.

Another factor is simply age. Maul was in his 20's(IIRC) and could thus properly continue on the lineage of the Sith after Sidious potential demise, where as Dooku was over 80 and there would be a grave danger the later could simply die before training a Sith Apprentice of his own(or accomplishing anything of note), breaking the cycle.

The Sith's goal is to achieve immortality. Thus, age is meaningless.

So, that silly argument about Maul being superior to Dooku because he was personally worth more to Sidious? Debunked.

You debunked nothing lmao.

Despite using a weapon Obi-Wan had absolutely no training against

Considering that you assume too much, I can safely say that Obi-Wan didn't have any training against a Makashi stylist with a curved hilt lightsaber as well.

Obi-Wan never faced with that kind of opponent or that style before.

For while Obi-Wan and most of the Jedi were sword fighters, Count Dooku was a fencer, following an older fighting style, one more effective against weapons like lightsabers than against projectile weapons like blasters. The Jedi on the whole had abandoned that old fighting style, considering it almost irrelevant against the enemies of the present galaxy, but Dooku had always held stubbornly to it, considering it among the highest of fighting disciplines. Now, as the battle played out between the Count and Obi-Wan, the older way showed its brilliance.

Attack of the Clones

having studied the terrain beforehand,

They were dueling at the Dooku's hangar... So I guess Dooku had a knowledge about the territory as well.

he got his lightsaber chopped in half by TPM Kenobi. Sure, he was rage amped, but with him being a Jedi and all, I can guarantee you that Dooku would have still destroyed him in about 5 seconds flat. Maul's performance is undeniably plain shite.

Would you say the same thing for ESB Luke? Who managed to cut Vader's shoulder? The same Vader who is also way above of Dooku on the list.

There's 1 quote confirming Maul is superior to Dooku and 2 that claim the opposite. The Maul one is very questionable, the others are not. I think you should be able to figure out the conclusion at this point.

2 of the most recent quotes ; SW Absolutely Everything You Need to Know (2015) , and Darth Vader #20 (2016) says Maul > Dooku.


There is no way that the gap between ROTS Sidious and Dooku is even nearly that vast. Dooku basically managed to contend with a level 9 fighter in Anakin when almost all of his reserves were exhausted for a pretty decent length of timein the novel leading to the conclusion that he would manage to last for a pretty good amount of time if he was at full power there. That basically supplements his duels with Yoda there and supports the multiple statements that confirm that Yoda was indeed going all out on him in his duels there.

Lol.

Dooku's reserves were exhausted because he couldn't keep up with Anakin's strength in the first place,

Skywalker was already there.

The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-

And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered. Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.

...

Skywalker was all over him. The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

Revenge of the Sith

As for Yoda;

Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below.

"Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."

Dark Rendezvous

Why would Yoda kill his former Jedi padawan on AotC while he didn't want to kill him even after knowing that Dooku has officially joined the Sith.

He wasn't even countering Dooku's attacks.

A wave of Dooku's free hand sent a piece of machinery flying at the diminutive Jedi Master, seeming as if it would surely crush him.

But Yoda was ready, waving his own hand, Force-pushing the flying machinery harmlessly aside.

Attack of the Clones

Yoda was holding back against his former Jedi padawan just as Mace did against friend Sora Bulq.

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HitTheAssasin

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#144  Edited By HitTheAssasin

@erkan12: Maul has chosen to be an apprentice while Dooku was still around at the time of TPM. Sidious wouldn't choose an inferior apprentice while he could have a more powerful one, as we've seen what he did with Anakin and Dooku.

Except, you know, Sidious wasn't even looking for an apprentice as of this timeframe in Legends, as he himself was still apprenticed to Plagueis. He only ever trained Maul as an assassin because he literally obtained him as a gift and needed someone skilled to do his dirty work. On top of that, it wasn't so easy as to simply take Dooku as his apprentice as of that time, since the latter was still devoted to the Jedi and it was only the events on Naboo and the death of Qui-Gon that finally made him abandon the Jedi Order. Besides, Plagueis would have been extremely suspicious and angry about Palpatine taking someone as already skilled, knowledgable and dangerous as Dooku, especially since he wouldn't be nearly as easily controllable as Maul(who was under Sidious brainwashing since his childhood), since Dooku was known as a proud and wise Jedi Master of nearly 80 years old at the time, who wouldn't easily succumb to a master nor be easy to keep in the dark. So, this comparison fails in every way.

Oh, and one more thing. You said: "Sidious wouldn't choose an inferior apprentice while he could have a more powerful one". That would apply to the TCW Era, as well, yes? The exact same era where he choose to reject Maul offering himself and his entire criminal Empire because he had found a new apprentice in Dooku? He explicitly stated "I have found a new apprentice. You have been replaced!" It doesn't get any more clear cut than that. Via your own silly and biased logic, TCW Dooku > TCW Maul is now confirmed.

The Sith's goal is to achieve immortality. Thus, age is meaningless.

This is also silly. Just because their goal is immortality, doesn't mean age is meaningless. Maul would have 60 to 80 years to achieve the Sith goal and further the plan, while Dooku would only have around 20 at best, making Maul the better choice. And despite that, Sidious chooses Dooku over Maul in TCW(obviously there were other factors in play, but using your logic, that's proof Dooku>>Maul).

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Erkan12

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#145  Edited By Erkan12

@hittheassasin said:

@erkan12: Maul has chosen to be an apprentice while Dooku was still around at the time of TPM. Sidious wouldn't choose an inferior apprentice while he could have a more powerful one, as we've seen what he did with Anakin and Dooku.

Except, you know, Sidious wasn't even looking for an apprentice as of this timeframe in Legends, as he himself was still apprenticed to Plagueis. He only ever trained Maul as an assassin because he literally obtained him as a gift and needed someone skilled to do his dirty work. On top of that, it wasn't so easy as to simply take Dooku as his apprentice as of that time, since the latter was still devoted to the Jedi and it was only the events on Naboo and the death of Qui-Gon that finally made him abandon the Jedi Order. Besides, Plagueis would have been extremely suspicious and angry about Palpatine taking someone as already skilled, knowledgable and dangerous as Dooku, especially since he wouldn't be nearly as easily controllable as Maul(who was under Sidious brainwashing since his childhood), since Dooku was known as a proud and wise Jedi Master of nearly 80 years old at the time, who wouldn't easily succumb to a master nor be easy to keep in the dark. So, this comparison fails in every way.

He wasn't, because it was Maul > Dooku. It's all your speculation why he didn't choose Dookie, in the end he says Maul was a loss while Dooku wasn't.

With Dooku around, Plagueis wouldn't suspect anything. He wouldn't think that Sidious takes a former Jedi knight as an apprentice.

@hittheassasin said:

Oh, and one more thing. You said: "Sidious wouldn't choose an inferior apprentice while he could have a more powerful one". That would apply to the TCW Era, as well, yes? The exact same era where he choose to reject Maul offering himself and his entire criminal Empire because he had found a new apprentice in Dooku? He explicitly stated "I have found a new apprentice. You have been replaced!" It doesn't get any more clear cut than that. Via your own silly and biased logic, TCW Dooku > TCW Maul is now confirmed.

This is the stupidest argument you ever produced. He already decided on Anakin at the time of the Clone Wars, and Dooku was a placeholder at the moment, it was Anakin > Maul, plus Maul was plotting with Mother Talzin against Sidious, and he was training a Sith apprentice against Sidious, Maul wouldn't give up on Savage Opress as Dooku give up on Ventress. Dooku was important for turning Anakin to dark side. Dooku sliced off Anakin's arm and Anakin had a grudge for Dooku. Sidious used that. He couldn't replace Dooku with Maul at the clone wars.

@hittheassasin said:

The Sith's goal is to achieve immortality. Thus, age is meaningless.

This is also silly. Just because their goal is immortality, doesn't mean age is meaningless. Maul would have 60 to 80 years to achieve the Sith goal and further the plan, while Dooku would only have around 20 at best, making Maul the better choice. And despite that, Sidious chooses Dooku over Maul in TCW(obviously there were other factors in play, but using your logic, that's proof Dooku>>Maul).

So Sidious wouldn't choose a stronger apprentice just because its older? LOL. Age has nothing to do with it.

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HitTheAssasin

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@erkan12: I get the feeling you didn't even read my post fully, or even partially, since you're first "counter" adresses none of the arguments made in my post.

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#147  Edited By LordOfTheLight
@lordofthelight said:

Repeatedly stating that Qui Gon is better than AoTC Kenobi doesn't make it true. The notion is preposterous anyways if one has common sense.

The use of the Qui Gon quote is in my top 5 list for the most stupid things ever said on CV or KMC in general

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#149  Edited By Greysentinel365

@erkan12:

Nick Gillard: The audience will want to see that manifest itself. There needs to be flashes of brilliance. He's more skilled than Obi-Wan. Anakin always attacks. He's better and he knows it, which means he's brash on occasion.

Source - Episode II Attack of the Clones Behind the Scenes: Teacher of the Masters

Anakin is better than Obi-Wan, a 7 in AotC

"The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. 'Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is,' says Gillard. 'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine.

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20051202222123/http://starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon126.html

I got two sources to your one. Also note that Gillard says "probably". While these are said with certainty.

Also Dooku did stomp Anakin

And on the floor of the cavern on brutal Geonosis, rendered helpless by two lightsaber cuts, he watched Dooku toy with bold, rash Anakin. Silver hair gleaming, teeth bared in a smile, the ageless Sith, the treacherous Jedi, prowled around Anakin with insolent ease. Deflected each blinding attack with casual, consummate skill. Forced the error-and took Anakin's arm.

Wild Space

But Dooku is right, Obi-Wan thought through the haze of pain and exhaustion. Anakin is no match for him… Unless Anakin does something unexpected.

Anakin caught the weapon in his free hand and attacked again. But even with two lightsabers, he could not hold back Count Dooku for long. The Count smiled and began to toy with him, knocking the extra lightsaber out of Anakin’s hand.

Retreat, Obi-Wan thought. Stall him. But Anakin was not retreating; he was being driven back. The combat had almost come full circle, back to where Obi-Wan lay. The Count smiled slightly — Obi-Wan was not sure at whom — and his blade flicked out almost too fast to see. Anakin screamed as his right arm dropped to the floor, cut off at the elbow.

Source: Attack of the Clones Junior Novelization

Anakin and Obi-Wan pursue Dooku to a secret hangar, where he defeats them easily, cutting off Anakin's hand.

Source: The Making of Revenge of the Sith

Dooku, far superior in the art of the duel, severed the young man's arm, which would later be replaced with a crude metal one.

Source: The New Essential Guide to Characters

He was spotted by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, who followed Dooku, attacking him in the hanger. They were easily defeated by the Sith Lord but before he could finish them off, Dooku was surprised by the arrival of Yoda.

Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #34

Skywalker and Dooku dueled, but again the Count proved his superiority. Anakin was maimed and collapsed in an exhausted heap, joining the helpless Obi-Wan.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The two Jedi challenged Dooku to a lightsaber duel, but Dooku's masterful skills in old-style lightsaber combat made short work of the younger combatants.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Anakin's impulsive attack gives Count Dooku the chance to overpower him and Obi-Wan easily. Anakin's haste also costs him his arm when Dooku's lightsaber slices it off.

Source: Mysteries of the Jedi

Anakin and Obi-Wan dueled the former Jedi in a hangar, but were no match; Dooku defeated both and severed Anakin’s arm.

Source: http://www.starwars.com/databank/anakin-skywalker

Sources even suggest that Dooku could easily defeat both Anakin and Obi-Wan together:

On Geonosis, Count Dooku showed why he had been known as one of the best duelists in the entire Jedi Order. He easily beat both Anakin and Obi-Wan together, and would have killed them had Jedi Master Yoda not arrived to join the fight at the last minute.

Source: Insider #34 (Relaunched)

Another source reiterates Dooku's superiority over the combined skills of Anakin and Obi-Wan, as well as stating that he is deadlier than Darth Maul:

More sophisticated, more calculating, and if anything deadlier than Maul, Count Dooku (a.k.a. Darth Tyranus) proved himself more than a match for the combined skills of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones.

Source: Panel-to-Panel Volume 1

So yeah. No. You're wrong.