Darth Tenebrous runs the Palpatine's apprentices gauntlet

The Gauntlet Runner

The Rules

• Full rest between each round
• Everyone in their prime, unless specified otherwise

The Gauntlet

Round 1:

Darth Maul

Round 2:

Darth Tyranus

Round 3:

Darth Vader as of Return of the Jedi

Round 4:

Lord Skywalker (Luke as of Dark Empire, when he was Palpatine's apprentice (yes, that's what he was called by the Imperial officers))

Round 5:

Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, and Darth Vader as of Return of the Jedi

Boss:

Darth Vader as of Operation: Knightfall

The Callouts

@wollfmyth209@darthant66@shootingnova@i_like_swords@silver2467@jedixman@jkbart@georgewbush@dadivineking@thevivas@okayalright_44@erkan12@highaccuser@juiceboks@killerwasp@lukehero@penderor@lamlam@zapan871@sirfizzwhizz@darthmanhunter@mije_101@jacthripper@SilentBat@noah_ouellette@eisenfauste@night4345@reikai@itzxsloth345@savageslayer@martinceld@masterkungfu@sebast_allen@neongamewave@shroudofsorrow@banthabot@playa1@precrisisbardock@kj27@draukin@aurbere@ForklifterMatt@selenial@emperordmb@emperor339@amethystgravity@ffp@bigsambino87@starwarsholonet

Sorry if I missed someone, or if you were tagged twice.

Ehhh

Im not sure if he could beat DE Luke even if we give Teneb the benefit of the doubt and say he is as strong as Plagueis, which he probably isn't

Probably beats Vader is a hard fight and then stops at Luke

Could win or lose at 3 and 4, stops at 5.

I'm not sure why DE Luke should be on par with Plagueis to begin with, though.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-vader-vs-darth-tenebrous-1556461/?page=3

Post number #123. You can also look up his RT and also check out Nova's argument as to how he beats Vader on the same thread.

@wollfmyth209: DE is a muddy time period. I find it hard to quantify really any powerscaling from there

I think holding how own against DE Sids should put Luke around that level

Clears.

EDIT: actually, I say he stops at 5.

Likely stops at 4 or 5. I'm not sure about 3.

An incredibly tough fight at 3, and I'll reluctantly say he stops at 4.

Stops at 5. He beats Vader pretty decisively.

I'd say 5, but an argument could be made for 4.

@shootingnova: could a power argument be made for vader being able to initally survive the full force of rotj sidious's lighting despit ebeing exhausted? Or of him tanking the explosion on malachor?

@shootingnova: He can beat DE Luke? Shouldn't he be stopping there?

I've never read Operation Knightfall - does Vader get a huge amp?

@kingcrimson: Operation Knightfall is the name of the event when the 501st, led by Vader, marched on the Jedi Temple:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yU44Xk5fFI

Vader is at his strongest there.

stops at de luke, gets stomped by knightfall anakin

@azronger: Stronger than Maul, Dooku and ROTJ Vader combined?

Probably five. I'm basing Tenebrous' skill level on how good Venamis was, and I don't recall him having any solid victories in a duel.

@kingcrimson: I'd say so, yeah.

@kbroskywalker: Exhausted? He was doing everything he could to kill Palpatine, and there's apparent implications of him entering Oneness when he did that.

He might, but not for a majority, I don't think.

Possibly 5. He is definitely not beating a mid tier 9 though

@shootingnova:

Exhausted? He was doing everything he could to kill Palpatine,

I'm not sure how thats remotely relevant. He had just gotten wrecked by luke, had his arm cut off, and iirc the rotj novelization explicitly notes he felt weaker than he'd ever been due to his fight vs luke . His ability to tank the full force of the rotj sidious's lighting(someone far more powerful than tenebrous) is incredibly impressive.

and there's apparent implications of him entering Oneness when he did that.

Post this? He likely had a powerful willpower amp given the situation,but thats negated by him being incredibly exhausted from his duel with luke.

He might, but not for a majority, I don't think.

Holding his own vs de sidious and doing the heavy lifting vs his storm puts de luke well above tenebrous imo.

4-5.

@shootingnova

Stops at 5. He beats Vader pretty decisively.

Why?

@kbroskywalker:

1. He tanked it through sheer force of will. He literally willed himself past death-causing damage. Of course, in Legends, he's already willed himself back from the dead once. It has nothing to do with power. At all. There's no source that even remotely suggests he used Barrier or something along those lines to mitigate Palpatine's Lightning (which the Emperor was losing control of anyway). He just willed himself through the pain long enough to hurl the Emperor over the railing.

2. It's the quote from The Unifying Force. I'll get it for you later if I have the time. It's ambiguous, though, I'll give you that. Then again, at worst, you could always cite it as a PIS moment.

3. All of Luke's fights against Sidious are circumstantial in nature and it's hard to get an effective grasp of how the fight would play out normally.

It's also arguable that Luke still had the "unlocked resources" from Leia's Force Harmony when he overturned Palpatine's Storm. By the way, he didn't even affect the Storm itself, he just cut a defenseless Palpatine off from the Force which made him lose control of the Storm which ultimately consumed the Eclipse and killed the Emperor.

Faster and more agile, probably at least as skilled, and likely more powerful. Infinitely better calculational ability is a good thing to have as well. Just not seeing Vader's advantages bar durability, which will only prolong the fight.

Tenebrous' relative proximity to Plagueis, who I consider capable of stomping Vader or at least coming close to such, is another point worth mentioning. He's certainly much closer to Plagueis than Bane, who could press Vader already.

4 or 5.

he can beat vader every time (9.5-10/10) but not without effort .
he stops at DE luke most likely .

this sith lord is often underrated and doesn´t get the attention he deserve .
in the ranks of the strongest sith lords he should definitely be in the top 10 (and rather higher than lower)
(if i´m not counting characters like valkorion and we are talking only sith than in this case
only sidious , plagueis and caedus should be more powerful than him really)

@shootingnova

Faster and more agile, probably at least as skilled, and likely more powerful.

Vader's agility is underrated but I'd say Tenebrous is better, yes.

Tenebrous' relative proximity to Plagueis, who I consider capable of stomping Vader or at least coming close to such, is another point worth mentioning.

Why though? First of all, this was a Plagueis who was decades pre-prime, and he was fascinated about the force, exploring it consistently so he would have grown by a huge amount. Second, Plagueis should be an inferior to Sidious, even before he was struck down by the latter. And upon striking Plagueis down, Sidious became notably more powerful. He should have grown by a lot in the decade to follow considering his potential( I think it is also stated that he was growing constantly). And of course, ROTJ Sidious had 23 years to grow in the dark side and become even more powerful, which should again be by a significant, if not large amount.

Banite masters at the end of the line should have a vast difference in their peaks. Considering their potential( which is exponentially higher than the potential of people like Bane) and the fact that they have decades to grow should put them at that level. So if Sidious is capable of stomping Vader( he didn't exactly stomp him even in ROTJ), it's not completely necessary that people who are a lot inferior to him should be capable of doing so. Plagueis in his prime can certainly beat Vader, solidly at that, but not to the extent of the fight being a stomp.

He's certainly much closer to Plagueis than Bane, who could press Vader already.

If one goes by feats, which is the way to compare Vader and Bane, I have 19/17/18 BBY Vader as a decisive superior to Bane. Being much more powerful than someone who can throw 20 m shuttles easily, is above Bane's paygrade. In sabers, Bane might be able to press Vader to an extent, but Vader is much more powerful than him in the force.

Also,

He tanked it through sheer force of will. He literally willed himself past death-causing damage. Of course, in Legends, he's already willed himself back from the dead once. It has nothing to do with power. At all. There's no source that even remotely suggests he used Barrier or something along those lines to mitigate Palpatine's Lightning (which the Emperor was losing control of anyway). He just willed himself through the pain long enough to hurl the Emperor over the railing.

How can power not be a factor in this? You can't will yourself past something you aren't even capable of doing in the first place. There was the pain, but there was also the fact that Sidious's lightning was simply incapable of killing him outright( it is even debatable whether he died due to the lightning or the disabling of his suit, likely the latter). Force users don't use barrier all the time. They don't have an invisible cocoon of energy protecting them all the time. They get hurt but they survive, due to the fact that their strength in the force is simply large enough to sustain them through forces that, had they not been force sensitive would have destroyed them outright. Tanking a massive amount of force is also an indication of power.

That's the reason why people like Galen Marek or Mace Windu can survive lightsaber injuries and yet stay alive( the latter was on a potent DS Nexus and he managed to give an esteemed Council Member fallen to the dark side, a good fight after that). Or why Anakin Skywalker can survive being burned by lava. These are powerful force sensitives in of themselves. Willpower is nothing but a way for them to express it.

Could someone like Kanan, had he had the same willpower as Vader, have been capable of doing the same thing?

Regardless, I don't see why this is "so" impossible for Vader to do, that you are inclined to dismiss it as PIS. He has been regularly shown to be a monster with regards to the force and all of that when he is substantially pre-prime. If there is a legitimate argument for the fact that he entered oneness, then sure. Else, yes, the feat speaks very highly of Vader.

@lordofthelight: Plagueis and Sidious have a lot more ways to kill Vader than lightning. Vader doesn't come close to planetary level, so I'd say Plagueis could just ragdoll and snap his neck.

And Tenebrous isn't far from prime Plagueis, like at all, so he could probably do the same.

@lordofthelight: I'll give you a response later.

@lordofthelight:

Vader's agility is underrated but I'd say Tenebrous is better, yes.

Underrated, but definitely not in Tenebrous' league at all.

Why though? First of all, this was a Plagueis who was decades pre-prime, and he was fascinated about the force, exploring it consistently so he would have grown by a huge amount. Second, Plagueis should be an inferior to Sidious, even before he was struck down by the latter. And upon striking Plagueis down, Sidious became notably more powerful. He should have grown by a lot in the decade to follow considering his potential( I think it is also stated that he was growing constantly). And of course, ROTJ Sidious had 23 years to grow in the dark side and become even more powerful, which should again be by a significant, if not large amount.

What does Sidious have to do with this? Plagueis, upon killing Tenebrous, never experienced a growth of the same caliber as Palpatine did when he struck down Plagueis. He grew, but the novel makes no mention of anything overly dramatic. Tenebrous kind of just relived his death in time loops over and over, so that's a plausible explanation for why Plagueis didn't have a drastic growth in power (it would also explain why Venamis didn't sense the death).

And while Plagueis no doubt surpassed Tenebrous eventually, perhaps by quite a significant margin, we have reasons to believe that Plagueis as of Tenebrous' death wasn't anywhere near as powerful as Tenebrous. Namely that Tenebrous actively held Plagueis back, and despite training Plagueis for 70+ years, managed to pump out a rival in Venamis in a considerably shorter time. Venamis of course being in awe of Tenebrous even as of that point.

Banite masters at the end of the line should have a vast difference in their peaks. Considering their potential( which is exponentially higher than the potential of people like Bane) and the fact that they have decades to grow should put them at that level. So if Sidious is capable of stomping Vader( he didn't exactly stomp him even in ROTJ), it's not completely necessary that people who are a lot inferior to him should be capable of doing so. Plagueis in his prime can certainly beat Vader, solidly at that, but not to the extent of the fight being a stomp.

Sidious has stomped Vader before, outside of RotJ. And if you're comparing feats as you go on to do in your post, then Sidious stomps again.

If one goes by feats, which is the way to compare Vader and Bane, I have 19/17/18 BBY Vader as a decisive superior to Bane. Being much more powerful than someone who can throw 20 m shuttles easily, is above Bane's paygrade. In sabers, Bane might be able to press Vader to an extent, but Vader is much more powerful than him in the force.

If you think each Banite master has a vastly greater power than their predecessors, then surely it'd only take a couple of progressions to reach where Vader is. You'd need numerous more progressions to get to where Tenebrous is. And there's a solid case for Tenebrous outstripping his master by a considerably greater amount than "average" given that he reigned as a Sith Master for 70+ years, which is exponentially greater than the presumable average (and certainly much longer than either Plagueis or Sidious' tenure as Sith Master).

How can power not be a factor in this? You can't will yourself past something you aren't even capable of doing in the first place. There was the pain, but there was also the fact that Sidious's lightning was simply incapable of killing him outright( it is even debatable whether he died due to the lightning or the disabling of his suit, likely the latter). Force users don't use barrier all the time. They don't have an invisible cocoon of energy protecting them all the time. They get hurt but they survive, due to the fact that their strength in the force is simply large enough to sustain them through forces that, had they not been force sensitive would have destroyed them outright. Tanking a massive amount of force is also an indication of power.

That's the reason why people like Galen Marek or Mace Windu can survive lightsaber injuries and yet stay alive( the latter was on a potent DS Nexus and he managed to give an esteemed Council Member fallen to the dark side, a good fight after that). Or why Anakin Skywalker can survive being burned by lava. These are powerful force sensitives in of themselves. Willpower is nothing but a way for them to express it.

Anakin survived because Palpatine saved him. Willpower doesn't correlate with Force power at all. Leia resisted Vader as of ANH even after extensive torture, AotC Obi-Wan in the Genosian prison resisted Dooku, and non-Force sensitives have resisted Force powers on numerous occasions. You've got characters like Sion and Maw withstanding immense injuries, yet they're never considered to be extremely powerful.

I'm not seeing how willing yourself through death-causing scenarios is a product of Force power.

Could someone like Kanan, had he had the same willpower as Vader, have been capable of doing the same thing?

Yep. Unfortunately, he doesn't have Vader's willpower. You need an insane amount of willpower to be able to do it.

Regardless, I don't see why this is "so" impossible for Vader to do, that you are inclined to dismiss it as PIS. He has been regularly shown to be a monster with regards to the force and all of that when he is substantially pre-prime. If there is a legitimate argument for the fact that he entered oneness, then sure. Else, yes, the feat speaks very highly of Vader.

The fact that Vader is extremely powerful and has taken lots of damage before is in no way sufficient grounds to argue that he can tank Palpatine's Lightning, lol.

@shootingnova:

Willpower doesn't correlate with Force power at all. Leia resisted Vader as of ANH even after extensive torture,

Which could be due to leia's passive force defenses considering how much she outclasses vader in terms of potential. Unless vader suddenly stopped being able to tp humans miraculously.

AotC Obi-Wan in the Genosian prison resisted Dooku,

So? You don't need to have parity or anything close to near parity with a force user power wise to resist tp attacks from them. Tping force users takes a massive gap.

non-Force sensitives have resisted Force powers on numerous occasions.

Which means

A. they have some special kind of species resistance to it

and/or

b. the user isn't that powerful enough with it

Furthermore force users who are powerful enough can override said resistances.

@kbroskywalker:

1. And yet Vader succeeded in TP'ing Luke. As did Palpatine. Potential had no part in that. There's also Vitiate vs Revan — clearly this is a product of willpower, not Force power. You ignored my points on Maw and Sion as well.

2. Mind Controlling someone takes a massive gap, but just intruding into someone's mind doesn't necessarily. And Dooku is massively more powerful than AotC Obi-Wan.

3. Those are possibilities, not definite reasons.

@shootingnova:

And yet Vader succeeded in TP'ing Luke. As did Palpatine. Potential had no part in that.

In fairness that was a more knowledgable/more skilled vader. Besides, that could come from having a stronger bond with luke as evinced by vader being unable to sense leia as his daughter but being able to sense luke as his son.

There's also Vitiate vs Revan — clearly this is a product of willpower, not Force power.

And yet vitiate wrecked revan with his lighting

my points on Maw and Sion as well.

I missed that but there's a difference between being able to survive injuries and resisting powerful force attacks.

Those are possibilities, not definite reasons.

Not sure what you mean here

@kbroskywalker:

In fairness that was a more knowledgable/more skilled vader. Besides, that could come from having a stronger bond with luke as evinced by vader being unable to sense leia as his daughter but being able to sense luke as his son.

The fact that Vader became more knowledgeable and skilled doesn't make a difference. We're comparing raw power and willpower here, which haven't changed. If raw power alone gave one the means to resist telepathy, then Vader would not have read Luke's mind regardless of how skilled he was in telepathic intrusion.

Clearly, as you deduced, mastery of the Force and skill in individual powers is also important. It's not just about raw power.

And yet vitiate wrecked revan with his lighting

Indeed. That only goes to show that willpower is not "merely an expression of raw power" or anything of the sort as LordOfTheLight claimed.

I missed that but there's a difference between being able to survive injuries and resisting powerful force attacks.

Vader didn't "resist" the Lightning, and certainly not by merit of power. He took it full on, knowing full well that he'd die, and willed himself past that anyway.

Not sure what you mean here

The reasons you listed in the last part of your post (species protections, Force users being weak, etc.) are only possibilities, not definite reasons that contradict my case. They can absolutely co-exist with what I've claimed.

@shootingnova:

The fact that Vader became more knowledgeable and skilled doesn't make a difference. We're comparing raw power and willpower here, which haven't changed. If raw power alone gave one the means to resist telepathy, then Vader would not have read Luke's mind regardless of how skilled he was in telepathic intrusion.

Clearly, as you deduced, mastery of the Force and skill in individual powers is also important. It's not just about raw power.

Alright fair, it doesn't really prove that willpower on its own allowed vader to tank the lightning

Vader didn't "resist" the Lightning, and certainly not by merit of power. He took it full on, knowing full well that he'd die, and willed himself past that anyway.

Certainly not based on what? none of the examples you've provided remotely prove that vader's power in the force wasn't a factor in resisting sidious's lightning. Vader not being able to break leia's mental defenses has absolutely no bearing on sidious, who has fully mastered the technique of lightning. If vader didn't resist sid's lightning, he would end up being a charred husk. Willpower can boost force power, but it is not a replacement for it. Vader without the force would have, as a human male, would have died instantly. Now, given how significant the moment was, its logical vader was massively amped by force of will coming from his love of his son, but this is partialy negated by vader, due to his duel with luke beforehand, feeling "weaker than he ever felt before". Off course if oneness is involved, then in spite of vader's weakness this would still be outside of his typical realm of abilities

The reasons you listed in the last part of your post (species protections, Force users being weak, etc.) are only possibilities, not definite reasons that contradict my case. They can absolutely co-exist with what I've claimed.

Er, no. If you don't have a means of resisting a force power(which could be power in the force), and you have someone who is powerful enough to use that force power, you won't resist that force power. And star wars has repeatedly shown that even non force sensitives that have a resistance to a certain ability can be killed if the force user is powerful/skilled enough to use that ability. Vader has absolutely no special resistance vs lightning outside his own force augmented durability or barrier.

Bump

1. Passes

Tene is much more powerful and probably a considerably more skilled lightsaber duelist given his implied superiority to Plageuis in this area.

2. Passes

Same as Maul. I'm of the unpopular opinion that Dooku is in the same range as Yoda and Sidious in saber skill; he's just considerably less powerful. Tene and Count are probably in the same range as far as skill goes, but Tene is still a lot more powerful and wins comfortably.

3. Passes

Tene has the advantage of lighting and power, though the gap is a bit more narrow than the previous two. Saber skill I'm not sure where Vader ranks in comparison to the other apprentices. I'm sure he's near the top in technical skill, but Tene is still more powerful and versatile so he wins with at worst mid difficulty.

4. Not sure

Haven't read DE yet.

5. Looses

I don't even think Yoda or Sidious could take all three. If their powers where perfectly synchronized they should be able to overpower him with the Force or outmaneuver him in a saber bout.

6. Probably passes

Yeah as powerful as Vader is at this point he is still facing a full fledge master who is more knowledgeable and in close proximity to Plageuis and Sidious. If KF Vader had the knowledge and experience of ROTJ Vader he could probably win, but as it stands I'd say a sith lord with full mastery > a slightly more powerful but inexperienced sith lord.

Vader takes him down.

Stops at 3.

Obviously right ;) But couldn't Maul take him too? Since he sort of gets a little Banite scaling.

@in-sidiousvader:

No, Maul and Dooku still die to Tenebrous. Vader does beat him though.

Hmmmm Ok. I wonder if there could be some wank done to place Maul above Teneb ;)

Stops at Vader(suited)

@in-sidiousvader: I doubt that.

@in-sidiousvader: Neither Maul nor Dooku receive banite scaling. Maul would have if he ever completed his training. He was in his mere 20's

Megamind loses to 3, 4, 5, and Boss

He loses to 1 and 2 purely for being a Bith; One of the lamest species in Star Wars. But I guess he takes a majority due to being more "powerful".

Bith still suck