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#101 Edited by RealistBigotry (118 posts) - - Show Bio

All we learned from this is that Luke is utter garbage and can't touch Sheev in a normal state, which explains his many low showings :)

From this point forward, GM Luke is Fisto-tier unless in Oneness.

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#102 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#103 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77 said:

@arkhamasylum3: Funny how the 2X Sidious quote falls under literally every rebuttal you've made minus the "maybe" part which I'll happily address as long as you admit the points you made were trolling.

Except the maybe part is the most important part. Lucas very clearly isn't sure in his own numbers and very clearly pulled a random figure from thin air which is obviously wrong by lore given Vader is sub Maul and 2 Maul's can't take Sidious which would be the case if we took the quote literally.

No such "maybe" exists in the first part of his quote.

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#104 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

@realistbigotry: sorry, couldn't help but hear your list of god tiers and Vader wasn't even on it! :(

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#105 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio
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#106 Edited by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio
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#107 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: Vader has better feats better accolades etc. the only reason that you would come to the conclusion that Dooku is far greater than Vader and Maul is low-balling or not taking into account the characters growth and feats

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#109 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: Vader has better feats better accolades etc. the only reason that you would come to the conclusion that Dooku is far greater than Vader and Maul is low-balling or not taking into account the characters growth and feats

Dooku>ROTS Kenobi>ANH Kenobi=Vader.

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#110 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: that argument is inherently flawed there are more quotes that say that Vader grew more powerful than Obi-Wan on top of that Dooku did it with a whip crack of his power, it's made explicit in the film and novel that he can't just Ragdoll Kenobi he needed an opening

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#111 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@in-sidiousvader:

that argument is inherently flawed there are more quotes that say that Vader grew more powerful than Obi-Wan on top of that Dooku did it with a whip crack of his power, it's made explicit in the film and novel that he can't just Ragdoll Kenobi he needed an opening

And this proves absolutely nothing. First off Vader was never stated to be more powerful than Obi Wan at least not to my memory. In fact iirc Vader himself concedes he and Kenobi were equals after their duel in ANH.

As for Dooku vs Kenobi it's an incredibly silly argument to say that Dooku can't ragdoll Kenobi. First off while multiple sources indicate that Obi Wan was caught off guard by Dooku when he was choked I haven't seen a source which confirms Kenobi didn't have a defence up when Dooku knocked him out with a Force Push and that would indeed be the logical assumption given he was staring Dooku right in the face and literally parrying his strikes just prior. I find it hard to believe he didn't have time to throw up a barrier given Qordis in Darth Bane PoD was totally unpreparded for Bane's attack yet still managed to throw up a Force Barrier.

"And therein lies the problem." Bane lashed out with the dark side, seizing Qordis in an immobilizing, crushing grip. His opponent tried to protect himself, throwing up a field to deflect the incoming assault, but Bane's attack tore through the pitiful defense, wiping it away as if it hadn't even been there."

- Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Given this we'd have to come two 2 conclusions:

1. Dooku is simply far faster than Kenobi and can hit him before he can react.

2. Dooku can overpower Obi Wan's defence.

Either conclusion paints Dooku as superior.

Regardless neither the film nor novel support the idea that Kenobi is somehow and equal to Dooku. The most you'll find is a single passage where Kenobi stonewalls a tired Dooku for a few seconds while the latter was under the pretense he was using Ataru not Soresu.

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#112 Posted by deactivated-5cdf8e3e9b353 (646 posts) - - Show Bio

I say the Son because of how powerful he is. Curse you for making a hard thread, I really want to say Sidious but the hype and the statements about the Father, Son, and Daughter can't be ignored.

The Son wins.

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#113 Posted by deactivated-5cdf8e3e9b353 (646 posts) - - Show Bio

@in-sidiousvader:

that argument is inherently flawed there are more quotes that say that Vader grew more powerful than Obi-Wan on top of that Dooku did it with a whip crack of his power, it's made explicit in the film and novel that he can't just Ragdoll Kenobi he needed an opening

And this proves absolutely nothing. First off Vader was never stated to be more powerful than Obi Wan at least not to my memory. In fact iirc Vader himself concedes he and Kenobi were equals after their duel in ANH.

As for Dooku vs Kenobi it's an incredibly silly argument to say that Dooku can't ragdoll Kenobi. First off while multiple sources indicate that Obi Wan was caught off guard by Dooku when he was choked I haven't seen a source which confirms Kenobi didn't have a defence up when Dooku knocked him out with a Force Push and that would indeed be the logical assumption given he was staring Dooku right in the face and literally parrying his strikes just prior. I find it hard to believe he didn't have time to throw up a barrier given Qordis in Darth Bane PoD was totally unpreparded for Bane's attack yet still managed to throw up a Force Barrier.

"And therein lies the problem." Bane lashed out with the dark side, seizing Qordis in an immobilizing, crushing grip. His opponent tried to protect himself, throwing up a field to deflect the incoming assault, but Bane's attack tore through the pitiful defense, wiping it away as if it hadn't even been there."

- Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Given this we'd have to come two 2 conclusions:

1. Dooku is simply far faster than Kenobi and can hit him before he can react.

2. Dooku can overpower Obi Wan's defence.

Either conclusion paints Dooku as superior.

Regardless neither the film nor novel support the idea that Kenobi is somehow and equal to Dooku. The most you'll find is a single passage where Kenobi stonewalls a tired Dooku for a few seconds while the latter was under the pretense he was using Ataru not Soresu.

Why are you doing this again man? Vader would smash Dooku hard.

also, that is a False Dilemma. Like Stop this friend, this isn't you.

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#114 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

Why are you doing this again man? Vader would smash Dooku hard.

I mean as a Vader fan I'm all for him being above Dooku. I just haven't see a singe convincing case for it.

also, that is a False Dilemma. Like Stop this friend, this isn't you.

A false dilemma huh? Provide me an alternative option/conclusion then.

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#115 Posted by Kilius (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Me and Lordofthelight have always maintained that Force barriers like that of the Bane Trilogy are practically non-existent in the PT. Every time a Force user in this era successfully counters a Force attack it's by way of a Force summing posture.

Look at Anakin vs Ventress on Kamino:

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No posture but still combat ready Anakin get's floored.

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Here when Anakin actually does raise his arms up in a defensive posture he outright blunts it. Same fight same opponent.

Legends? Okay how about Anakin vs Ventress again this time Yavin:

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Ventress clearly puts her arms up in defense before Anakin's Force push lands. She blunts it easily.

Loading Video...

With no defense posture once again she is floored.

Force pushes in this era are all about timing and reflexes. It's no different than landing and defending against punches and kicks. This is why people seriously overblow the significance of Dooku and Maul Force gripping Kenobi, no of the instances in which he had a defense posture to defend against. If Dooku and Maul could dismiss Kenobi with the Force at will, they wouldn't get into lengthy duels with him. If they were so much more powerful they could rip through his Force shield they wouldn't be evenly matched in sabers in the first place. Clearly they need to wait for an opening in his defense before they can.

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#116 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: Eh I can see that perspective. Might refute this tomorrow but I really need some sleep now.

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#117 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah what LOTL and killius said lol

:P

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#118 Posted by echostarlord117 (5617 posts) - - Show Bio

What's up with all this Dooku vs. Vader nonsense? This thread isn't remotely about them.

OT: The Son, obv

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#119 Posted by deactivated-5cdf8e3e9b353 (646 posts) - - Show Bio

What's up with all this Dooku vs. Vader nonsense? This thread isn't remotely about them.

OT: The Son, obv

just people low balling Vader. Vader for the record would hard stop Dooku badly, Dooku is better in saber skills but force power Vader owns him.

I agree the Son wins this fight.

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#120 Posted by echostarlord117 (5617 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101 said:

just people low balling Vader. Vader for the record would hard stop Dooku badly, Dooku is better in saber skills but force power Vader owns him.

That's fine, but I don't think this is the appropriate thread to be discussing this.

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#121 Posted by deactivated-5cdf8e3e9b353 (646 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101 said:

just people low balling Vader. Vader for the record would hard stop Dooku badly, Dooku is better in saber skills but force power Vader owns him.

That's fine, but I don't think this is the appropriate thread to be discussing this.

I completely understand. I will make a thread so everyone can discuss this and it not be against thread rules.

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#122 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10293 posts) - - Show Bio

Sheev based on feats

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#123 Posted by dark_globe (660 posts) - - Show Bio

this is a mismatch . the son is the literal embodiment of the dark side of the force .
sheev is merely a great student of it , but anything he can do abusing the dark side , the son can simply do much better .

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#124 Posted by xolthol (976 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean as a Vader fan I'm all for him being above Dooku. I just haven't see a singe convincing case for it.

If you are looking for some argument for Vader being above Dooku you have this [1]. Personnaly this have definitely convince me.

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#125 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16800 posts) - - Show Bio

Sheev based on feats

Even if you want to go that route; Sidious is at best planet-level, and the Son was going to ruin the galaxy and tear apart the universe by fighting with his sister.

Son absolutely and wholeheartedly destroys and this should be a mismatch.

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#126 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10293 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: what actual feats does the son have? Not based on speculation. My mind could be changed depending on his capability.

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#127 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a stalemate, both are too powerful.

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#128 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol: I wasn't really impressed by Az's case in that CaV tbh.

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#129 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16800 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: His passive presence gave Force sensitivity to millions of non-Force sensitives, his presence on Mortis was enough to change the entire planet surface wise, he was going to destroy the galaxy and rip apart the fabric of the universe, he eventually surpassed Abeloth in power and she at her peak absorbs planets into her very being, he and his family are by and far the most powerful Celestials(the beings who created and could destroy the universe) and the Son is the literal personification of the very power Sidious draws upon: the Dark Side.

The Ones are essentially the Galactuses of the Star Wars universe. Like, this fight isn't even arguable. They exist on a plane far beyond anything any other mortal Force user could hope to accomplish. Anakin's one metaphorical "balancing the Force" feat isn't gonna change that.

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#130 Posted by xolthol (976 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: OK, I would be interrested to heared your arguments for Dooku being equal to Vader.

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#131 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol: Dooku>ROTS Kenobi>ANH Kenobi=ANH Vader.

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#132 Posted by xolthol (976 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku ~ ROTS Kenobi > ANH Kenobi.

But why do you think that ANH Vader = ANH Kenobi. I have ANH Vader above him.

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#133 Edited by dark_globe (660 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3 said:

@xolthol: Dooku>ROTS Kenobi>ANH Kenobi=ANH Vader.

anakin tapping into the dark side already cut dookus hands and took his head of . there is no discussion here .
and the original trilogy vader was more mentaly stable and composed fighter also more knowledgeable about the force then ROTS anakin/vader .
the only incarnation of pre suit anakin that could take down ANH/ESB/ROTJ vader is KF anakin fully tapping into the dark side
(which i consider to be the most powerful incarnation anakin / vader ever achieved but still far away from what he could become) .

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#134 Edited by xolthol (976 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe: this isn't the topic of the debate here.

But anyway thanks to give your point of view about this

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#135 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe:

anakin tapping into the dark side already cut dookus hands and took his head of . there is no discussion here .

Which proves what exactly? This doesn't relate to Kenobi at all.

and the original trilogy vader was more mentaly stable and composed fighter also more knowledgeable about the force then ROTS anakin/vade .

Any actual evidence for this being the case? Regardless Anakin is vastly more powerful than suited Vader so his knowledge and mental stability are irrelevent.

the only incarnation of pre suit anakin that could take down vader is KF anakin fully tapping into the dark side

You are aware Anakin also did this in his fight with Dooku right?

(which i consider to be the most powerful incarnation anakin / vader ever achieved but still far away from what he could become) .

Yeah sure KF Vader's the most powerful. Not seeing how any of this relates to the scaling provided though unless you're arguing the ludicrous position that Suited Vader is more powerful than Invisible Hand Anakin who is more powerful than Dooku.

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#136 Posted by deactivated-5cdf8e3e9b353 (646 posts) - - Show Bio

what is this downplay and low balling Vader? LMFAO.

Anakin has far more potential than Vader that is it, he never reached that full potential. Vader is without a doubt more powerful than Anakin; the only argument that can be made here is that Anakin is more athletic other than that Vader would smash Dooku pretty badly. Vader when he was cut down by Obi-wan was still stated to have the power to surpass Sidious GL said Anakin lost about 40% of what he could have been...by my estimation it still proves that Vader could surpass the Emperor. which he was well on his way to do making it to 80% of Sidious before actually dying.

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#137 Posted by Deadlyeyes (276 posts) - - Show Bio

This Dooku>Vader nonsense needs to stop