Darth Sidious vs. The Son

The Son is from the Star Wars the Clone Wars TV Series. If you don't know anything about him then look him up.

Sidious from EU.

No force storms.

No Lightsabers.

Round 1: Lightning only.

Round 2: Anything with the force except what is stated.

Who and WHY.

Palpatine has much, much better feats.

Regarding Lighting, Palpatine has destroyed small armies, killed multiple people, lit the surface of a planet, overloaded Yoda's defenses and bent lightsabers before. The Son has shocked Obi-Wan, overpowered his Father (impressive but his Father was beyond his prime and again his power level is somewhat ambiguous) and stalemating the Daughter, who is, once again, a being of ambiguous power level.

On the other hand, Wookieepedia mentions somewhere that only the Daughter, the Father in his prime, Abeloth, and Anakin (presumably as the Chosen One) could take on the Son. If that's correct, then I guess he wins? But I still need to see the source for that.

As of Round 2, the Son has demonstrated exceptional Tutaminis and deflected lightsaber blades with his bare hands. Hemight be able to deflect Palpatine's Lightning, although it appears his speed feats are relatively mediocre. Palpatine could still blitz him with Force attacks unless they have equivalent speed.

The Son's transforming capabilities is irrelevant because it won't do anything. So... either Palpatine stomps, or it's a stalemate, or better - we don't know for sure. We don't know enough about the Son's speed and overall power levels, in general.

@shootingnova: I've been meaning to follow you for a while. I've seen a TON of your posts on a lot of the Star Wars threads. Anyway, as for the battle I know how powerful palps is and the son, the daughter, and the father are suppose to be basically the force incarnate but seeing as how they have limited feats i thought it should be interesting. I honestly dont know how it would end so I was very curious. Thanks for elaborating on your answer by the way.

@deathstroke19: Just to let you know, I don't enjoy getting stalked :) But thanks for the follow.

You could imagine them as "the Force incarnate" - except they were apparently descendants of the Celestials, or rather "the Ones are what the Celestials become".

@shootingnova: lol i wasn't stalking you but I've been searching battles on here for like 3 years and most were Star Wars battles because i love that stuff and you always posted on those.

I called them the force incarnate more figuratively rather than literally because each one more or less represents whatever side of the force that they use.

By reasonable inference, the Son should be far and away more powerful than Palpatine and should beat him every time, but the full limits of the Son's powers and their use is unknown, although they should be exceptional.

If we take the literal interpretation of the Mortis trilogy espoused by FotJ, which disregards any possibility of an ethereal or theoretical take on it, then the Son as a literal figure who grew so powerful with the Force that, for the safety of the galaxy, he and the other Ones had to be confined in a realm/planet that seemed to defy natural laws due to pulsating with the power that the Son and Daughter radiated (could be wrong about the properties of Mortis' environments; if someone has a source that explains it better, feel free to correct me), should be more powerful than Palpatine, but by how much, who knows. FotJ was rather inconsistent with how powerful it wanted Abeloth to be, who according to Denning/FotJ is one of the Ones. She appeared more powerful than any living Jedi or Sith at that time, including Luke for the most part, but on the other hand, she could be matched by many other characters too. Luke held his own against her more than once, and he even held the advantage over her a couple times.

On the other hand, if we take the more ethereal and theoretical interpretation of the Mortis trilogy, such as that espoused by Book of Sith, that Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka's experience on Mortis may or may not have been literal, where the Son as an ethereal or theoretical figure embodies the totality of the dark side to a much more singular extent than Palpatine ever did and who, for all intents and purposes, is the dark side, then the Son should again be far and away more powerful than Palpatine by reasonable inference.

@deathstroke19: That's essentially the case. Their deaths were a foreshadowing of Palpatine's rise to power, the deaths of the Jedi, and the destruction of the Sith.

Basically:

1. The Daughter is killed by the Son - The Sith gain power and destroy a vast majority of the Jedi Order

2. The Father impales himself - Balance is lost

3. The Son dies from Anakin's impalement - The Sith are destroyed by Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One.

4. Balance is brought to Mortis - Balance is brought to the Force and the galaxy.

@silver2467: "By reasonable inference, the Son should be far and away more powerful than Palpatine and should beat him every time, but the full limits of the Son's powers and their use is unknown, although they should be exceptional."

Exactly. This is why i made this thread. The sons potential powers was so great but we did not get to see them much as he was only seen for a short time yet Sidious is supposedly the greatest Sith so with the sons limited feats this should prove to be an epic battle and in my book it still has an undecided winner (or stalemate).

#7 Edited by ShootingNova (9868 posts) - 2 minutes, 52 seconds ago - Show Bio

@deathstroke19: That's essentially the case. Their deaths were a foreshadowing of Palpatine's rise to power, the deaths of the Jedi, and the destruction of the Sith.

Basically:

1. The Daughter is killed by the Son - The Sith gain power and destroy a vast majority of the Jedi Order

2. The Father impales himself - Balance is lost

3. The Son dies from Anakin's impalement - The Sith are destroyed by Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One.

Sorry i was typing my last message when you posted this. So yeah i agree with this as well.

@silver2467: Basically - although Palpatine still has better feats. The Son overpowered his Father, and yet when he had the opportunity to kill Obi-Wan he just shocked him.

Otherwise I would say the Ones are more powerful than everything save for Abeloth and the Chosen One.

@silver2467: @shootingnova: they should make a spin off book on if the son actually escaped Mortis and how it would have affected the way of the galaxy. What do you guys think?

Hmm. That's why I believed, but the Father keeps imploring his Son not to descend into the Dark Side - and also:

"As my son has descended into the Dark Side, so have the Sith gained strength."

Source: Altar of Mortis

So that implies the Son isn't the Dark Side itself, and the Father later mentions that he knew there was good in his Son, and all that.

That said, I now think the Son wins. The Father could hide the Jedi's ship from their Star Destroyer, despite the fact that they were on the exact same co-ordinates. He has also erased Anakin's memories, extended wings to fly, thrown both the Daughter and Son out the window (when they were distracted), held lightsaber blades by his hand, forced lightsaber blades into their hilts by touching them, and so forth all even when he was beyond his prime - and yet the Son overpowered him. It could be an issue of the Son's hate and the Father's love for his son, but....

Also, I think it was said that Abeloth overpowered both the Son and the Daughter, and the Father (likely in his prime) rescued them and stranded Abeloth on that planet. It's implied he defeated Abeloth.

Anyways, recounting the Son's feats:

• Overpowering his Father's Tutaminis (similar to Palpatine overpowering Yoda's Tutaminis)
• Stalemating the Daughter
• Outflying Anakin's ship
• Taking the forms of various beings, such as Shimi, a gargoyle, Anakin Skywalker himself and that little creature that bit Ahsokha
• Corrupting Ahsokha and then killing her with a touch to her forehead
• Demonstrating Tutaminis by deflecting lightsaber blades with his hands and forcing them into their hilts
• Showing Anakin his future as Darth Vader
• Telekinetically hurling Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ahsokha
• Shocking Obi-Wan

@deathstroke19: I'd rather a novel that recounted the lives of the Ones - or at least a novelization of the Mortis trilogy in TCW, OR a novel about Abeloth and the Ones.

@shootingnova: Obviously, Palpatine has better demonstrated feats, but that may not really matter. The Son, and the Ones in general, are supposed to be manifestations of the Force. Their general apotheosis elevates them above any standard Force sensitives.

Fair enough.

Regarding differing interpretations on the Mortis trilogy, the Star Wars website's episode overviews for TCW (which are no longer there but can be found in archives) said in the Overlords summary that it was the design TCW's creative staff to leave the Mortis trilogy open to interpretation. The Essential Guide to Warfare also seemed to try to reconcile the original ambiguity of the Mortis trilogy presented in TCW, Book of Sith, and even Darth Plagueis in its veiled references to the Ones with FotJ's very literal, concrete interpretation of it by a passage from Arden Lyn where she recounted Xendor's supposed experience on Mortis. He basically takes an inclusivist approach to FotJ's interpretation by saying that nothing really changes whether the Ones were literally real or not and that everyone has their own theories regarding the Force.

Xendor told me he once journeyed to a dead world where the Force was worshiped as a triad of divine beings. The Daughter was the Light Side. The Son was the Dark Side. And the Father? The Father was the Force itself, perhaps. Xendor said he spoke with these beings, and I asked eagerly what he had discovered. He laughed at me, and dismissed the question.

"Even now, you refuse to understand," he told me. "There are as many truths to the Force as there are hearts within which the Force manifests itself. The existence of the triad has no more bearing on the reality of the Force than the Ashla and the Bogan, or anything I tell you, or anything you tell others. Any philosophy, creed, or religion that opens the heart to the Force proves itself to be true. But that is only a demonstration of the application of power, Arden. It says nothing about the rightness of our beliefs, or the universality of our faith."

--Taken from The Essential Guide to Warfare

Obviously, Xendor is wrong, as while there are ambiguities, not every religion or cult surrounding beliefs in the Force are correct.

I would prefer nothing be written about them at all and leave the Legend of Mortis a legend. This was one of my major gripes with FotJ; it took too dogmatic an interpretation on the Mortis trilogy, not to mention its interpretation really didn't make any sense.

@shootingnova: all would be great. I think they should really should expand in those characters as they were such a great idea and all of them had so much potential.

@silver2467: I think a novelization of the Mortis trilogy would be fine, since it doesn't necessarily have to harm their legend. I think FotJ already ruined it by stating the Ones were physical entities.

And I'm still getting crippled by blank-posts.... I can tell because I can't use italics or anything.

@shootingnova: For the record, I have heard that Leland Chee remarked on the powers of the Ones and said that they transcend everyone in the mythos barring Anakin, but I have never seen this for myself. I don't necessarily doubt that such a comment exists, just never seen it.

@silver2467: That may be the source for Wookieepedia's statement.

However, we are digressing too much.

@shootingnova: I don't think we're digressing at all. We're dissecting the power of the Ones, which is pertinent to the thread.

@silver2467: Well, can you find the quote?

And discussing potential books is a tangent.

palpatine 9/10

Hrm. I responded to this once already, but this post-disappearance-plague seems to have affected me and I didn't even notice.

What I said in my former post was that, no, I have not found a source that explicitly states what I suggested, but I did find a source, Leland Chee's twitter account, where Chee says that the most powerful Force user in the lore to date is the Father.

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/352618406517809153

This may not be perfectly translatable to the Son, but I think it is indicative of the powers of all the Ones.

So far, I would give the Son 10/10.

@silver2467: Hmm...I actually used to think that. And the Father said he was dying from age (which is stupid because they are immortal). However, I think that instance in which the Son overpowered his Father is likely due to the latter's love for the former. When the Son was torturing the Father later he appeared to be able to resist the pain freely as compared to when he was knocked unconscious earlier due to the Son having an element of surprise.

Yes, the Son gets 10/10 now.

I seem to have a different plague. My replies and quotes and everything are still there, but everything I type is not... You can tell if your italics don't work. Just to be safe though, you should copy your entire post just in case.

@oceanmaster21: who and why. Not just (name) wins. Not trying to be a jerk i would just like to see your reasoning as @silver1467: and @shootingnova: have come to a different conclusion.

@deathstroke19: Palpatine becase hes more powerful he has better ways to beat him. hes immortal practicklyand he has way better feats.

@oceanmaster21: fair enough. I'm completely neutral on this opinion so as long as it's explained i don't care.

That's where I would disagree with you as the one's are most powerful then any force user. The only force users who could come even close to their power are the Skywalkers, potentially. We have seen that Anakin could from the clone wars, and it has said that Luke Skywalker has the same potential as Anakin, so full potential EU Luke could, but since noone else has reached that kind of power, no one else can.

As it stands who even have a CHANCE against any of The Ones are:

Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, Abeloth, Father, Son, Daughter.

The Ones are pretty much Gods among Force-sensitive beings. The only reason that the Skywalkers could compete is because Anakin was created by the Force aka his Father is the force - the Son of the Force. Luke is the Grandson of the Force. Which makes them not normal force users...at all.

Palpatine is not truly Immortal he just uses clone bodies. He does finally die permanently.

The Father is immortal, naturally. I suppose the death by aging thing is kind of like Odin and the Norse Gods. That kind of Immortality. The reason the Father died in the clone wars is because he committed suicide using their ONLY weakness - that dagger - to do it. After he did this, the son lost his powers and hence was able to be killed by Anakin.

Which brings us to the ultimate point: Palpatine cannot kill The Son, he will not have access to that special dagger, so there is no way in hell that he could defeat The Son who with his immortality can shrug off any attack Palpatine makes.

Well, the son was definitely supposed to e more powerful, but Palpatine has the feats. If it ever happened in a story, the son would win.

Yeah remember how desperately the Father was from letting the Son escape out into the galaxy? He was worried about the chaos and damage that it will cause and screw up the balance. The Father was willing to kill his own son and/or take his own life just to stop the son from escaping, that should tell you something. Because Sidious was out in the galaxy and 'the world didn't end' so to speak but its hinted that 'The world would end' if the Son escaped.

The Son.

Ahh the glorious days of baby Deathstroke and his gang of Star Wars fans..... :) @ssj3gohan007: Nice breakdown. Didn't realize you were a Star Wars fan. ;)@sheryinistoosexy: "Who wins and WHY?"

Oh yeah! I been a MAJOR fan of Star Wars since I was first introduced to it as a little kid. I always considered myself a bit of a trivia expert and pretty knowledgeable of its inner workings and deep philosophical nature.

Palpation I mean Palatine.

Reasoning? Why do you think Palpatine can defeat a God?

Because I know nothing of this Son. lol Besides I just wanted to say Palpation.

@darthaznable: lol ok, I personally like to call him Palpy

This is all you need to need to know about The Son:

The Son wins because he's TALLER ;)

@ssj3gohan007: Yeah I consider myself a knowledgeable (notice i didn't say expert lol) person on everything pre Order 66. I don't know much about the lore after that but I think I know more than the average movie goer.

And yeah same here.... I got into it as a kid as well. I grew up with the prequels so i actually like them compared to most people.

And who's your fav characters? Mine are Durge, Exar Kun, The Son, and General Grievous..... With a few others but I'm too lazy to name them ATM :P

Yeah unlike most people it seems, I don't hate the prequels. They may not be perfect, but then what movie is? I seen by looking through many people's reviews that even some of the best movies do have a number of flaws. I seem to to have this talent to enjoy some movies that other people hate, I don't know if this ever happened to you?

My favorites are: Luke skywalker, Anakin Skywalker, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace, Count Dooku, The One's, Starkiller. Just off the top of my head. Also I think Dash Render from Shadows of the Empire. Hk-47, Revan, etc. Too many to list.

@ssj3gohan007: Yeah it has lol. I actually enjoyed Daredevil so.... Yeah.

And nice. I forgot to add Dooku to my list....

Cool so you know what I'm talking about.

Glad to be of service with that, bro! :D

I can't wait for the next star wars movies, I hope they do a good job.

@ssj3gohan007: Same here. If they screw those up....

Yeah, I know what your thinking *wink wink*

@ssj3gohan007: lmao! They'll BUUUUUURRRRRRRRNNNNNNNN!!!!!! >:D

*rubs palms together* Mwahahaha! *cackles evily*

They won't know what hit 'em!

The Son, 10/10.

Imagine what would have happened if Anakin joined the son.

My guess is that things would've been worse than what happened with the fall of the republic and rise of the empire.

Anakin might have become more powerful then he was and never got injured at Mustafar.

I wonder if anyone would've ever been able to overthrow them?

the son wins all battles but i can see a story where palpatine is like the only person who can stop him and pulls out the dagger when they square off and the osn just smerks and laughs and doughts him but then dies but that wouldnt hapenn without PIS Plot Infused Stupidity

@shootingnova: Yea if I recall well, the Father defeated her pretty easily when she started abusing the kids. I think there was somethingelse about the kids having to combine forces to take down Abeloth at one point to. But the father most defiantly had her in check.

The son wins.

The only people that can stand up to him are other Ones, Full potential Anakin, or Grandmaster Luke.

All the others get beat.