Going off of canon feats the team takes it. Dooku held off Yoda who is equal to Palpatine, and Vader is at least around the same strength as Dooku. Maul has shown he could fight Sidious without instantly losing and should almost be as good as Dooku, so overall the team should take a majority.
Sidious in canon moves faster than mace can react(this was not contradicted as mace was initally unabe to react to sidious) so there's no reason his speed can't give him a win here
Mace blocked every blow from Sidious except for that one time Sidious pointed his lightsaber at Mace's chest. Dooku was also able to contend with Yoda's speed. Sidious didn't speed blitz Maul in their battle so saying he is going to blitz these three isn't likely. He clearly showed his superior speed over Savage, but not to Maul. While of course Sidious is faster than Maul, he couldn't casually dance around Maul like Savage.
Savage sure was unable to "out strength" Dooku at all. Even though Dooku was being hassled and dueling Ventress. Not until Savage tapped the Force Rage.
This is false. The first lightsaber blow Dooku blocked from Savage floored him, lol.
(I just realized @erkan12 already put this gif to counter you, lol)
Sora doesn't have any physical strength feats to be compared with the likes of Maul, Savage, Mace and Sidious, lmao.
Sora? Who the fudge is Sora?!
Djem-so is a good counter for Makashi, because physical strength based attacks are a counter for Makashi. A person with less physical strength couldn't do anything to Dooku's Makashi, the important point is using the physical strength properly. Which is why Sora didn't do anything to Dooku. As well as AotC Anakin.
Who is Sora? Your babbling nonsense. As for Djem So, yes its a good counter to Makashi, but thats just that form. You stated Strength attacks in general which is bullshit. Now you are back tracking lol.
So ? It proves that Obi-Wan was able to deal with Anakin's superior strength, despite the fact he isn't physically strong as Anakin.
Um what?
How is that "dealing" with Anakin? He was running away and about to lose just like Dooku lmao.
Obi-Wan didn't lose the duel like Dooku did. Which is why I said Dooku is weak to strength based kinetic attacks in the duels unlike his peers.
You really do suck at at context.
I mean its too easy to prove you wrong time and again. Obi Wan won only due to Anakin mental hindrance and making a critical mistake. That did not happen for Dooku .
Dooku lost due to Anakin being focus, and tapping his force potential. Its stated that Dooku block his attacks fine, but cost him stamina and force perseveres. Its stated plainly SKYWALKER WAS GETTING STRONGER through the fight.
Wow.....
The difference is clear.
Yeah its clear alright, you really have no clue of the mis info you like to spew :/
Savage simply ragdolled Dooku with his physical strength, whereas he was startled by Sidious' physical strength, plain and simple. Sidious can replicate the same via possessing the same amount of physical strength.
Yet, Savage could not even ragdoll Obi Wan, Ventress, or Gali.
Adi of all beings blocks his attacks and she is far weaker than anyone listed. Then Obi strength wise holds off Opress and Maul at the same time by blocking both! lololol
So by your piss poor argument all these characters are stronger than Dooku?
Savage sure was unable to "out strength" Dooku at all. Even though Dooku was being hassled and dueling Ventress. Not until Savage tapped the Force Rage.
This is false. The first lightsaber blow Dooku blocked from Savage floored him, lol.
(I just realized @erkan12 already put this gif to counter you, lol)
Too late, I already countered that one. Way to be late.
Too late, I already countered that one. Way to be late.
But I made my post before your counter post...
I agree that episode made Savage look stronger than he should, but it's true Dooku has trouble when being battered by a physically stronger opponent. He isn't as young as he used to be.
@themuser: i disagree, the use of the word now makes me think he's referring not to his potential but now his power with the potential lost.
The context of the statement is still potential power. Check it.
So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him.
The underlined half specifically is referring to potential power, translate it like this: "And now he's maybe 20% less than him" (In potential power) The context of the statement still leads me to the same conclusion I made earlier.
That's an extremely strange way to interpret that statement. I don't see anyone wording it like that if he meant potential power. Are you a native speaker?
Allow me to re quote the entire statement:
“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”
Notice the first statement I underlined, it says that anakin was going to be extremely powerful. Meaning that he wasn't as powerful as he could have been at that time, referring clearly to potential. However, he lost his arms and legs, which curbed his ability to use the force, and clearly effected his potential which he didn't reach at that time. So he lost the ability to become twice as good as the emperor (Clearly referring to potential) and now he can only get to 20% less then the emperor . If you still don't think this statement is referring to potential read the rest of it. It says that Luke was the primo version of anakin, due to his more or less unhindered potential.
@sirfizzwhizz: The reason why Savage managed to throw Dooku like that was because he was relying on his brute strength and entire bodyweight to smash Dooku's guard. Savage got a lucky shot.
@koeniklego: eh, I find the context both before and after the statement to support my claim, however you are correct, we probably won't agree on that one.
Savage sure was unable to "out strength" Dooku at all. Even though Dooku was being hassled and dueling Ventress. Not until Savage tapped the Force Rage.
This is false. The first lightsaber blow Dooku blocked from Savage floored him, lol.
(I just realized @erkan12 already put this gif to counter you, lol)
In other news kanan is stronger than maul, and ventress is more powerful than anakin and kenobi
@sirfizzwhizz: The reason why Savage managed to throw Dooku like that was because he was relying on his brute strength and entire bodyweight to smash Dooku's guard. Savage got a lucky shot.
Savage sure was unable to "out strength" Dooku at all. Even though Dooku was being hassled and dueling Ventress. Not until Savage tapped the Force Rage.
This is false. The first lightsaber blow Dooku blocked from Savage floored him, lol.
(I just realized @erkan12 already put this gif to counter you, lol)
In other news kanan is stronger than maul, and ventress is more powerful than anakin and kenobi
Kanan didn't overpower Maul he used his weight against him. That's like saying a skinny guys is stronger than a big buff guy because he tripped him. Savage wasn't amped when he knocked Dooku over in that gif. He knocked him over again after becoming amped.
Savage sure was unable to "out strength" Dooku at all. Even though Dooku was being hassled and dueling Ventress. Not until Savage tapped the Force Rage.
This is false. The first lightsaber blow Dooku blocked from Savage floored him, lol.
(I just realized @erkan12 already put this gif to counter you, lol)
In other news kanan is stronger than maul, and ventress is more powerful than anakin and kenobi
Kanan didn't overpower Maul he used his weight against him. That's like saying a skinny guys is stronger than a big buff guy because he tripped him. Savage wasn't amped when he knocked Dooku over in that gif. He knocked him over again after becoming amped.
he caught maul with one hand and casually flung him with one hand after somehow stonewalling maul's offensive, its pis, just like what you're showing with opress. And yes, opress was rage amped and had just somehow managed to force choke both of them, pis is pis is pis is pis, stop using it.
he caught maul with one hand and casually flung him with one hand after somehow stonewalling maul's offensive
Catching the punch was impressive but throwing Maul would be the same as throwing any other 160lb guy. Getting stronger in the force doesn't make you heavier. Also Kanan was amped.
its pis, just like what you're showing with opress. And yes, opress was rage amped and had just somehow managed to force choke both of them, pis is pis is pis is pis, stop using it.
Like I said the rage amp and choke scene were after the one I'm showing. Re-watch the fight.
@alextheboss: you're right about that, but its still in an arc where somehow getting angry made ventress>anakin+kenobi and opress>dooku+ventress and dooku>anakin+obi wan,
@kbroskywalker: Ya, my point isn't that Savage can knock everyone around, it was that Dooku seems to have a weakness to strong blows due to his old age. He had problems with Savage and Anakin who both use strong strikes.
I do hope you're not using when anakin got amped vs a exhausted dooku? Because dooku has broken out of chokeholds from tcw anakin, has floored anakin when non amped in his peak with his kicks, physically stomped kenobi, and has dealt with the strength of folks like windu and grevious whose strikes he could deal with casually.
@kbroskywalker: Doku's style in general is more elegant and isn't meant for strong strikes. Dooku got exhausted in the first place because he was past his prime. Dooku isn't physically weak, but he isn't on the strength level of Savage or prime Anakin and constantly being battered can wear him down.
How is that "dealing" with Anakin? He was running away and about to lose just like Dooku lmao.
He was about to lose and then focused himself and anakin lost his upperhand just as dooku did vs anakin(minus the focus part) in their final tcw duel. Both are examples of Anakin being dealt with.
@kbroskywalker: ah I see, you feel Kenobi beat Anakin fair and square without the stated context of Anakin fighting stupid from his emotions. Is that what your saying? That Kenobi > Anakin in a context free battle?
but you're post made it seem that kenobi couldn't handle anakin's strength which is wrong as he did handle it there and did so in tcw while holding back. Kenobi can compensate for the strength gap, its the power gap which makes unhindered anakin>kenobi. Though when hindered vs a focused kenobi, anakin wasn't able to tk him with kenobi breaking out of his grips and deflecting his force blasts
@kbroskywalker: Obi could not handle the strength according to the RotS novel. Anakin strength was fracturing his bones and Obi had to run away and try to find a way to end the foght quickly, lucking out.
In canon as in what we see in the movie, yeah he handle it fine.
@sirfizzwhizz: he initially couldn't handle it(fracturing bones happened before the "dark power bore down his grip"), but then he focused and was able to handle it(breaking out of anakin's physical+tk grip). Then Anakin started drawing strength from his pain(mental pain) and so Kenobi in response fully focused, stopped holding back, and completely let go. He then stonewalled Anakin, stopped moving back(remember soresu user) landed a kick on him and then jumped out of a sinking platform, jumped onto moving platforms(as anakin did) and then found the high ground and we know the rest...
Obi had to run away
Because the platform he was on was about to sink into lava.
If you're talking about him being driven back, well soresu master, does this all the time.
unhindered anakin>kenobi
but mustafar anakin was not beating kenobi by the end of the fight when kenobi fully let go, and overall barring high ground it was a stalemate.
and kenobi has already shown in tcw he can more than compensate vs an unhindered anakin's strength advantage.(mustafar hindrance shouldn't affect physical strength)
Sora doesn't have any physical strength feats to be compared with the likes of Maul, Savage, Mace and Sidious, lmao.
Sora? Who the fudge is Sora?!
Djem-so is a good counter for Makashi, because physical strength based attacks are a counter for Makashi. A person with less physical strength couldn't do anything to Dooku's Makashi, the important point is using the physical strength properly. Which is why Sora didn't do anything to Dooku. As well as AotC Anakin.
Who is Sora? Your babbling nonsense. As for Djem So, yes its a good counter to Makashi, but thats just that form. You stated Strength attacks in general which is bullshit. Now you are back tracking lol.
LMAO.
This is where you've lost all of credibility on your argument, the Sora that you were talking about one page earlier... Lol. You don't even know what you're talking about, seriously.
Obi-Wan didn't lose the duel like Dooku did. Which is why I said Dooku is weak to strength based kinetic attacks in the duels unlike his peers.
You really do suck at at context.
I mean its too easy to prove you wrong time and again. Obi Wan won only due to Anakin mental hindrance and making a critical mistake. That did not happen for Dooku .
Dooku lost due to Anakin being focus, and tapping his force potential. Its stated that Dooku block his attacks fine, but cost him stamina and force perseveres. Its stated plainly SKYWALKER WAS GETTING STRONGER through the fight.
Wow.....
Oh my... So you're still throwing these ''out of context'' stuff huh...
Question ; Who said Anakin's overconfidence isn't his usual weakness ?
Mace Windu already stated that Anakin isn't stable, which is the sole reason why they didn't give him the ''title of Master'' ...
Mace laced his fingers together land squeezed until his knuckles crackled like blasterfire. "Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger. But he is not stable. You know it. We all do. It is why he cannot be given Mastership.
We must keep him off the Council, despite his extraordinary gifts. And Jedi prophecy ... is not absolute. The less he has to do with Palpatine, the better."
-- Revenge of the Sith Novelization
You see, Anakin isn't stable desptie his great potential, but Obi-Wan on the other hand, was a true ''Master'' of the Soresu in the all Jedi Order.
"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"
"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really-"
"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."
-- Revenge of the Sith Novelization
Another question ; who said Obi-Wan wasn't hindered also ? C'mon now, you're throwing out these bullshits on and on.... Stop it already.
''ANAKIN IS LIKE MY BROTHER... I CANNOT DO THIS.''
-- Revenge of the Sith Comic Book
He was hindered in their duel, which is why he was even feeling that even days later...
Still physically and emotionally exhausted from his death duel with Anakin, Obi-Wan wasn't sure. And wasn't sure he cared.
--- Taken from ; Lone Wolf: A Tale of Obi-Wan and Luke
But you'll just ignore all of this, continue to blabbering like ''but Anakin was hindered bla bla...'' with ignoring the context that Obi-Wan was also...
Savage simply ragdolled Dooku with his physical strength, whereas he was startled by Sidious' physical strength, plain and simple. Sidious can replicate the same via possessing the same amount of physical strength.
Yet, Savage could not even ragdoll Obi Wan, Ventress, or Gali.
Adi of all beings blocks his attacks and she is far weaker than anyone listed. Then Obi strength wise holds off Opress and Maul at the same time by blocking both! lololol
So by your piss poor argument all these characters are stronger than Dooku?
I'll tell you what, Dooku is physically weaker than those people you're counting on. He is a 80 years old geezer. Dooku has no physical strength and H2H combat feats to be compared with them, which is why it's only natural that Dooku was getting ragdolled by Savage while others were not, and Ventress, Gallia lose the duel to Savage because of the strength difference between them already.
Also lol at Kenobi, Kenobi is surely physically stronger than Dooku, and he can tank that strength based attacks much better due to Soresu. What the hell were you thinking ? You think physically Dooku = Kenobi ? Lmao.
So by your piss poor argument all these characters are stronger than Dooku?
Yes, 80 years old Dooku, by having no H2H combat and physical strength feats to be compared with them, he is physically weaker than those characters. I know it's hard for to accept this fact, but these are hard truths, what can you do.
The reason why Savage managed to throw Dooku like that was because he was relying on his brute strength and entire bodyweight to smash Dooku's guard. Savage got a lucky shot.
C'mon now, I know you're better than this. Savage didn't get any ''lucky shot'' ... Dooku was trying to escape from Savage in entire duel. Example is in here ;
b. kenobi himself has attributed his victory due to anakin's hindrance
c. anakin was circumstantially amped vs dooku
d. opress did that in an ac where he chocked oth ventress and dooku and where ventress force choked anakin and kenobi, its pis, and if you don't believe me, look at him get stompe by maul and outclassed by pre prime kenobi, both of whom(kenobi as he is pre prime) are <dooku as duelists imo.
b. kenobi himself has attributed his victory due to anakin's hindrance
c. anakin was circumstantially amped vs dooku
d. opress did that in an ac where he chocked oth ventress and dooku and where ventress force choked anakin and kenobi, its pis, and if you don't believe me, look at him get stompe by maul and outclassed by pre prime kenobi, both of whom(kenobi as he is pre prime) are <dooku as duelists imo.
I dont like to agree with Kbro at all, but everything said here is true.
@erkan12: I'm not saying Savage's physical strength isn't powerful enough to send Dooku flying against a wall, I was saying Savage only managed to do that because his strikes were completely focused on brute strength and body weight in his strikes. It's evident when you see Savage constantly charging, smashing his lightsaber around. I was saying Savage landed a lucky shot because of Dooku's positioning and stance, Dooku was blocked it head to head (which was a bad idea), so Savage sent him flying like that.
Anakin was already a child killer when he went to Mustafar, Obi-Wan however, as a Jedi, he still had a moral code, and he was fighting against his ''brother'' ...
b. kenobi himself has attributed his victory due to anakin's hindrance
Lol, no. Yoda send Kenobi to kill Anakin. Yoda didn't believe in all of these, he simply gauge the power differences between himself, Emperor, and Obi-Wan, Anakin, and said that Obi-Wan can't deal with the Emperor, but he can deal with Anakin. Plain and simple.
No he wasn't amped, after Obi-Wan's departure, maybe, but not before. Which is why novel specifically says Dooku couldn't deal with Anakin's djem-so strikes (even before Obi-Wan's departure) and Anakin was doing the same even in TCW.
d. opress did that in an ac where he chocked oth ventress and dooku and where ventress force choked anakin and kenobi, its pis, and if you don't believe me, look at him get stompe by maul and outclassed by pre prime kenobi, both of whom(kenobi as he is pre prime) are <dooku as duelists imo.
what's ''ac'' ? And ''oth'' ?
Anyways... So many ''out of context'' material you're throwing in one post...
I wasn't talking about the Force choke, I was talking about Savage's kinetic stroke over Dooku's Makashi, which resulted as disarmament of Dooku.
And what ''pre-prime'' Kenobi ? Season 5 TCW has been very close to RotS timeline already, and Kenobi didn't grow more powerful in one day.
Kenobi only defeated Savage when he was amped in that cave. If not, Savage was powerful enough to deal with him fine, just as he did in here.
I don't follow Star Wars, but is the power gap between Darth Sidious and Darth Vader this huge?
Of course. George Lucas, the creator of the Star Wars universe, says that Vader could only be ''%80 of Sidious'' ... After the Mustafar incident he lost his most of his potential. He says that Vader, Dooku, Maul all of them are on the same level, while Sidious is at another level.
"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side."
--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005
"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
Assuming ROTS Sidious, the only one here not getting stomped is Vader. Maul and Dooku get ragdolled pretty quickly, leaving Vader to deal with Sidious alone, which he for sure can't. IMHO, it is a stretch to say that the team wins even a single round.
Assuming ROTS Sidious, the only one here not getting stomped is Vader.
You think Vader wouldn't get stomped by Force lightning ?
Either way, this isn't one-on-one, this is 3 v 1, Sidious can't choke, ragdol or blast with lightning easily as he can do in one-on-one, there will be always 2 opponents at the corner who waits for an opening, which is a major issue, in a 2 v 1 he can pull out the same trick (using a Force blast on one and killing the other meanwhile) that he did to Maul and Savage, but this is against 3 opponents with superior skill and power.
Considering that he tanked the lightning of a far more powerful version of Sidious in ROTJ for quite an impressive duration of time and lived to have a short conversation with Luke, no, he won't get one-shot by lightning. He will obviously get overwhelmed, but not instantaneously like the other two.
I don't see how that makes such a big difference to the most powerful Sith Lord in history. He can simply spam them with a lightning storm. If he is serious, Dooku and Maul get one-shot quickly, while Vader barely defends the lightning( with regards to your point, Maul and Dooku are outclassed by Vader, and essentially are nothing to Sidious)(he can incapacitate both with a force blast, and deal with Vader at his leisure). Turning his full strength to Vader, Sidious simply dominates him utterly. Also, lightsaber combat isn't his USP( despite his dominance in the area). He himself stated that he carries the lightsaber to beat the Jedi at their own game( which shows if anything, he does it simply for stroking his ego). If he is actually serious about winning, he will spam with the force and it will be too much for the team to handle.
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