Palpatine is waiting for Anakin's and Obi-Wan's "rescue" aboard Grievous's flagship.
Instead, Tyranus walks in after dispatching both Anakin and Obi-Wan in the hallway leading to Sidious. Tyranus interrogates Anaking before the final blow and comes to realize that Sidious expected for Anakin to usurp Tyranus's place by Sidious's side. Meditating for a moment, Tyranus senses Sidious's intent. Enraged, Tyranus makes a charge towards Sidious, determined to have his head. "You have earned your title "Sidious." Now I will show you the true power of Tyranus!"
Plus didn't Palpatine mention to Anakin aboard the Grievous's flagship that Dooku had grown too powerful?"
1) Mace Windu had three other Jedi masters to help him. 2) Since when is Dooku>Windu? 3) You're not actually believing that line? Come on. That was a play on Anakin's emotions. It had no relation to reality whatsoever.
" @AtPhantom: Fair is fair, two of the masters did nothing but die in the first 5 seconds of the fight. Windu did it pretty much by himself. "
I don't care. :P They were there, they at least provided distractions for Windu, and distractions can make or break a battle. Look at Sentry vs Blue Marvel. "
That is true, but I honestly don't think the outcome of that particular was affected at an equal degree, as per your example. It alarmed Mace, surely, seeing Sidious' display, but other than that, it didn't change much.
@Jeronimo: You still haven't answered my question. Since when is Dooku> Windu? Also, look at my previous posts.
@Morpheus_ said:
" That is true, but I honestly don't think the outcome of that particular was affected at an equal degree, as per your example. It alarmed Mace, surely, seeing Sidious' display, but other than that, it didn't change much. "
Yeah. But still, he had to exert himself to kill them and stuff. Surely it was not affected to the same degree, my point was only circumstantial, but they should still not be written out. Also, given that Sidious was later able force freaking Yoda to retreat, You have to wonder how much of the fight was real, and how much was an act for Ani.
" That is true, but I honestly don't think the outcome of that particular was affected at an equal degree, as per your example. It alarmed Mace, surely, seeing Sidious' display, but other than that, it didn't change much. "
Yeah. But still, he had to exert himself to kill them and stuff. Surely it was not affected to the same degree, my point was only circumstantial, but they should still not be written out. Also, given that Sidious was later able force freaking Yoda to retreat, You have to wonder how much of the fight was real, and how much was an act for Ani. "
That's a rather thorough debate in itself, but even as distractions, two of the Jedi did not even move before they died. Hard to believe Sidious exerted himself in the slightest by doing so.
"That's a rather thorough debate in itself, but even as distractions, two of the Jedi did not even move before they died. Hard to believe Sidious exerted himself in the slightest by doing so. "
The third one did, however. That the awesome Kit Fisto shouldn't have went out like a punk is a different matter, but at least we can thank Lucac for moving him from his place... :P
@Jeronimo said:
" Dooku>Windu>Sidious"
HOW?????
I'm asking you this for the third time. Am I missing something? When did Windu and Dooky fight?
also Tyrannus means tyrant. It means you're bad, power hungry and oppressive. It doesn't say anything about your power.
"That's a rather thorough debate in itself, but even as distractions, two of the Jedi did not even move before they died. Hard to believe Sidious exerted himself in the slightest by doing so. "
The third one did, however. That the awesome Kit Fisto shouldn't have went out like a punk is a different matter, but at least we can thank Luca for moving him from his place... :P "
I just watched the scene again. The third lasted for a little more than 5 seconds after the killing of the first two. Not good enough. :P
" @Jeronimo: You still haven't answered my question. Since when is Dooku> Windu? Also, look at my previous posts.
I remember reading a post on this forum somewhere of Count Dooku (still jedi) besting Mace Windu whilst sparring. I guess it's in a book, not a movie. Maybe JediXMan can chime in on that one. :P
At that point Sidious wasn't nearly as powerful as ended up being later in the series. He is NOT undefeatable. He also stated to Anakin that Dooku was too powerfull to left alive.
" Aw, c'mon! At that point the Sidious wasn't nearly as powerful as ended up being later in the series. He is NOT undefeatable. He also stated to Anakin that Dooku was too powerfull to left alive. "
That was when he was pretending to be nothing more than a senator, before Anakin found out he was a Sith.
I don't understand why so many people people Palpatine is someone that can never tell a lie. He's a freakin' SITH LORD!
And he's powerful enough.
Also, Mace would have lost. Yoda was beaten in Lightsaber combat by Palpatine (he lost his Lightsaber). Yoda was said to be the best; Mace is close to second.
@AtPhantom: 1. In the New Essential Guide to Characters it was stated that as when they where Jedis Dooku had beaten Mace many more times in sparring matches. 2.I was just saying, since it seems to be a hotter topic in here than the actual battle itself.
" @AtPhantom: 1. In the New Essential Guide to Characters it was stated that as when they where Jedis Dooku had beaten Mace many more times in sparring matches.2.I was just saying, since it seems to be a hotter topic in here than the actual battle itself. "
Yeah, but didn't Dooku leave the Jedis more then ten years before Attack of the clones? Windu might have been just a knight at the time. He isn't that old as far as I know. And I seriously doubt they went all out on each other in sparring matches.
" @AtPhantom: 1. In the New Essential Guide to Characters it was stated that as when they where Jedis Dooku had beaten Mace many more times in sparring matches.2.I was just saying, since it seems to be a hotter topic in here than the actual battle itself. "
Yeah, but didn't Dooku leave the Jedis more then ten years before Attack of the clones? Windu might have been just a knight at the time. He isn't that old as far as I know. And I seriously doubt they went all out on each other in sparring matches.
Something along those lines yes. Does it really matter if he ascended into a master either? Also in a sparring match isn't it supposed to be a test of skill between the two right?
"Something along those lines yes. Does it really matter if he ascended into a master either? Also in a sparring match isn't it supposed to be a test of skill between the two right? "
No, I guess not, my point was to say he could have learned quite a few things since then.
Sparring matches are a test of skill, but there is also a lot of restraint. For example, you've seen CW cartoon, right? Remember how Windu takes out the seizmic tank? Do you really think he would display that much power in a sparring match? That's mainly my reason for doubting the claim. Dooku's lack of feats.
"Something along those lines yes. Does it really matter if he ascended into a master either? Also in a sparring match isn't it supposed to be a test of skill between the two right? "
No, I guess not, my point was to say he could have learned quite a few things since then. Sparring matches are a test of skill, but there is also a lot of restraint. For example, you've seen CW cartoon, right? Remember how Windu takes out the seizmic tank? Do you really think he would display that much power in a sparring match? That's mainly my reason for doubting the claim. Dooku's lack of feats. "
I'll post some today or tomorrow depending on how lazy I am :p
" @Jeronimo: You still haven't answered my question. Since when is Dooku> Windu? Also, look at my previous posts.
@Morpheus_ said:
" That is true, but I honestly don't think the outcome of that particular was affected at an equal degree, as per your example. It alarmed Mace, surely, seeing Sidious' display, but other than that, it didn't change much. "
Yeah. But still, he had to exert himself to kill them and stuff. Surely it was not affected to the same degree, my point was only circumstantial, but they should still not be written out. Also, given that Sidious was later able force freaking Yoda to retreat, You have to wonder how much of the fight was real, and how much was an act for Ani. "
I don't remember seeing this at all. I'll have to rewatch it again, but I remember Sidious took the opportunity to flee, and Yoda was ashamed in himself for not killing Sidious that he exiled himself. (We don't know what would have happened if Yoda had been able to pull himself over the edge)
I've gotta say, I love the name Darth Tyranus, but Sidious would win. Tyranus is supposed to be one of the best lightsaber duelists/fighters around, and very powerful in the Force, but Sidious has him in both.
I know I'm a bit behind on the debate here but I'd also like to throw my hat in the ring for the 3 Jedi Masters accompanying Mace against Sidious having zero effect on the outcome of the battle.
Sidious is not invincable, especially at this point in the timeline. He himself said that Tyranus had grown too powerful.
Tyranus is no pushover. He had full training in the light side and therefore powers that Sidious did not.
Plus, Sidious knew his limitations (or was too much of a coward) and chose not to confront Darth Plagueis directly. Plagueis was more concerned about mitichlroians than lightsaber combat, too. So if Sidious couldn't take a mediocre duelist (Plagueis), how could he best someone who could defeat Windu in lightsaber combat?
Sidious is not invincable, especially at this point in the timeline. He himself said that Tyranus had grown too powerful.
Tyranus is no pushover. He had full training in the light side and therefore powers that Sidious did not.
Plus, Sidious knew his limitations (or was too much of a coward) and chose not to confront Darth Plagueis directly. Plagueis was more concerned about mitichlroians than lightsaber combat, too. So if Sidious couldn't take a mediocre duelist (Plagueis), how could he best someone who could defeat Windu in lightsaber combat?
I say Tyranus is the last one standing!
"
Well, I gotta say, if I was playing a weak old man, and trying to convince a young military leader to engage in murder, I'd probably go with "he's too dangerous to be left alive", or something along those lines, too. Honestly, that's the best (and probably the only) real military justification available. It's one thing to best a Sith Lord in combat, but taking one prisoner with no way to disable or even dampen his Force powers is just not something that a lone Jedi Knight (or even a Master) would be up to. Force lightning from a wrist stump is just as dangerous as Force lightning from a hand.
It's also more than a bit of a stretch to claim that an order of Force-users that has spent the last 1,000 years hiding and trying to build their power in every way possible wouldn't have managed to accrue knowledge of the skills taught by the most famous Force-using order (which also just so happens to be the ultimate target of the other order).
Look at it this way: why would you face your Sith Master in lightsaber combat (knowing full well that he can use all of his other talents in such combat) and run even the slightest risk of dying, when you can take advantage of his weakness (an extremely Sithly thing to do) and just murder him in his sleep? I've also seen no sources that actually suggest that Plagueis was weak on lightsaber combat.
"Sidious is not undefeatable. He knew this and therefore feared Tyranus. Witness:
"
Come on, seriously, you don't believe that??? It's always well known that Sidious was looking for a much more powerfull apprentice, Dooku was good, and powerfull, but had moved well past his prime. Sidious fearing Dooku, is seriously and honestly a joke. As stated by JediXman, Sidious lies constantly, to tell the people he's manipulating to get the desired effect he wants/needs. Dooku, as was the Seperatetist movement, was never a threat but a lie and manipulation on Sidious's part to get him where he always wanted to be, Emperor and lording it over the jedi by wiping them out, and he would have used and killed anyone, any planet to do it, is the simple truth.
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