Darth Sidious (ROTS) vs Darth Vader ( ANH)

@nfactor1995:

How is this the case when weaker versions of Vader are considered comparable and/or superiors to stronger versions of Sidious?

Palpatine is a master manipulator, and Vader's "weakness" is a pull to the light, which is arguably more powerful than the dark. Yoda says it plainly. Yoda also overpowers Palpatine in ROTS, force ghosts (immortality) are exclusive to the light side, and (though I hate to give any credit to TLJ) Luke's force projection was supposedly very powerful.

@lightordark:

He’s verbatim stated weaker in a guide, and it’s not solely the pull to the light. It’s the pull to the light while being a dark side user. It creates a contradiction

Vader is listed above Sidious as the #1 red lightsaber duelist:

Source: Star Wars Absolutely Everything You Need To Know

Vader is the most powerful Sith in the galaxy:

“Few survive an encounter with the most powerful Sith in the galaxy. Darth Vader…”

Source: Jedi Fallen Order

Vader is the most powerful Sith:

“Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith (Anakin/Vader), and [Kylo] Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.”

Source: The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

Darth Vader has the highest M count, and therefore the most raw power:

“Darth Vader has the highest midichlorian count among Jedi or Sith—20,000+ per cell—which makes him very powerful. Even Kanan and Ezra together are not capable of defeating him!”

-Rebels Visual Guide: Epic Battles

Palptine tells Vader his powers are unparalled, implying Vader is more powerful:

“You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled.”

Source: Tarkin

Vader scales above ROTS Anakin:

“He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.”

Source: Lords Of The Sith

(ROTS Anakin scales above the ROTS Titans, so Vader scales even higher above the titans)

Palpatine is wary of Vader’s power:

“So he’s very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger he holds by the tail is going to stay that way”

Source: Insider 157

ROTJ Palpatine is worried that Vader will realize he is strong enough to overthrow him:

“Vader has always been conflicted. Palpatine has always been able to use that conflict to his advantage, whispering, promising, manipulating Vader into those moments of singular clarity that make him so powerful in the dark side of the Force.

But no longer. This always happens with apprentices, Palpatine should know, he’s had several. He once was one himself and recalls perfectly the moment he understood he was better than his master, stronger and more powerful, and killed him. Palpatine will not let any apprentice of his to reach the same realization—or think they have.”

Source: Stories of Jedi and Sith

But that is an interpretation of text, which makes it debatable. For example, Obi Wan and Yoda became more powerful by learning the secrets of immortality. Ezra became powerful by discovering and entering the World Between Worlds (something Sidious couldn't do). Growing in power isn't a statement that is exclusive to physical attributes, though it is more aligned that way to the Sith.

I am curious if there is any Sidious lightning feat that shows it is stronger in ROTJ than it was in ROTS. I could easily make the argument for ST Sidious. He brings down a fleet.

Also, Vader didn't tank Sidious's lightning. It killed him. The ROTJ novel expresses that Vader wasn't tanking it. I get Disney is trying to make Vader the GOAT by retconning legitimate canon, but it is an uphill battle, especially with Sidious coming back in the ST. All they do with guides and comics is create a more convoluted universe.

The Vader comic gives him feats because it provides more information. A Yoda, Mace, Obi Wan, or Dooku comic would do the same thing.

@lightordark:

How is “Force lightning is the Force” interpreted any other way? That is just an objective statement. If you become most powerful in the Force, then you have more powerful Force lighting. I thought this was clear with how Sidious and Yodas lightning battle was different from Yodas and Dookus battle

Vader died because he sped up the process due to taking off his mask and an already damaged suit. The adult novels are the lowest form of canon and the junior novels just have him surviving it. If a Vader with a messed up suit, who can barely stand, is stated to have lost his once formidable power can survive a Sidious stated to unleash the full fury of his rage untop of adding more power due to fear, that already implies similarity with the weakest Vader and the strongest Sidious.

I am pretty sure Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know is a legends book. Also, that seems to be discussing sabers only, not power overall.

The Fallen Order quote doesn't account for the fact that Palpatine may or may not be known as a Sith, just like most people don't know that Vader is Anakin.

Kanan and Ezra couldn't be the Grand Inquisitor, so of course they couldn't beat Vader.

Palpatine builds Vader up and tears him down. Vader in ROTJ to Luke says, "you don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master." Vader seems to be well aware that he cannot beat Palps without help.

The midichlorian count is interesting, but if Vader had never been trained, he wouldn't be the most powerful just because he has the highest midichlorian count.

He does have the most powerful lightning. That isn't in dispute. The question is what says that his "most powerful lightning" is any different than his ROTS lightning. If you look at the two people who have taken it head on--Mace and Luke--then you could easily make an argument that it wasn't any different.

Even his fight with Yoda suggests his lightning is at maximum strength.

@lightordark:

Uh I don’t think you’re understanding me. Sidious is more powerful than Dooku. Therefore his lightning is more potent. It’s quite literally the Force. Are you talking about in that exact instance vs Vader?

@lightordark: Vader doesn’t try to defeat Palptine alone because he’s been conflicted and manipulated:

“Vader has always been conflicted. Palpatine has always been able to use that conflict to his advantage”

“So he’s very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger he holds by the tail is going to stay that way“

Also ROTJ Palpatine is still very powerful. Vader may have more raw power but Palpatine has the experience, knowledge, and mastery. Overall they are pretty close, so Vader would try to recruit an apprentice to ensure his victory over Sidious.

And Absolutely Everything You Need to Know is canon.

@living162637: I understand what you’re saying. Your argument is flawed, though, because if it was just about force power, every dark side user could arguably create force lightning.

It’s a skill. Sidious and Dooku had it. Vader, Maul, Ventress, and Savage couldn’t, though they were undeniably powerful with the dark side.

My rebuttal remains, though, that there is nothing that proves that Palps lightning is any different in ROTS, ANH, ESB, or ROTJ.

@sonofdarkness: I agree that Palps and Vader are close, just like I would argue Palps and Dooku were close, and Mace and Yoda were close.

I’ll argue all day that the top tiers are close.

I don’t see evidence than any one same tiered Jedi or Sith is well above the other.

I will make the argument that Yoda and Sidious are the benchmark.

@lightordark:

Force lightning is literally a metric of power though. For some reason you’re just avoiding this. Ventress, Maul and Savage are all weaker than Dooku, and Vader could use the Force to summon lightning, albeit not from the hands

I also have no idea what this has to do with ANH Vader being above ROTS Sidious

If lightning is a metric of power, the ROTS takes it over ANH Vader. He shows more raw power in his fight with Yoda.

Vader solos the verse

@jedisympathiz3r: According to CV, you’re not wrong.

Have no idea where this conception that Vader at the near peak of his powers and confidence CANNOT be anywhere near any Sidious at any point in time…

Simply not a proposition backed by any form of Disney canon

Sidious by feats, Vader by statements.

Vader's loss to Obi-Wan gives Palpatine the victory.

The one who scales far above casual moon + level feats.

@crclopezos: and as feats and portrayal trump statements from adorable little ancillary materials, well...

Sidious handily.

@mcu-defender333:

Sidious has no feats better then ANH Vader lol. Sidious fans love making up random narratives that don’t apply to Vader at all. The only “feat” is peak Sidious getting restrained and killed by fatigued Vader

@mcu-defender333: @crclopezos: Vader has better feats than ROTS Sidious

Still Vader

While Vader has more raw power and his a better duelist then Sheeve. The only reason palpatine gets the win is because his experience in the darkside and his mental advantage over Vader. After all every single time we say Vader try to fight Sidious it's because he was weakened or he had just gotten into his new suit. Prime Vader with the right motivation should take Palpatine with mid to high difficulty. Without it Vader just lets Sheeve dog walk him because of his own mental struggling.

@famousroman said:

That's kind of you to say. However, you'd be making the mistake of assuming that Darth Vader strengthens significantly over the course of his career, therefore necessitating that the Emperor either start out far ahead of his apprentice, or improves at a similarly considerable rate in order to maintain his lead. Lord Vader doesn't undergo a whole lot of growth either -- he may start out at, say, level 9, and then gradually works his way up to 9.6, before Darth Sidious, a level 10, attempts to replace him.

He DOES go through huge growth. Even more canon sources, that generally ignore such things, mention his huge growth during the OT. Well no, Sidious was never a 10 at any point during any of the trilogies. Most important sources point towards their closeness, with only him on the table, and end of ROTJ going against it, which makes sense.

Vader is in a different league than the ROTS titans. He should win solidly.

@famousroman:

He DOES go through huge growth. Even more canon sources, that generally ignore such things, mention his huge growth during the OT.

If one sifted through the mounds of canon continuity material out there long enough, I'm sure at least one source would turn up, but I've yet to see anything of the sort. Bear in mind, too, that we've just gone through a number of sources depicting the very opposite.

Well no, Sidious was never a 10 at any point during any of the trilogies.

9 and 10 were arbitrary numbers, not references to any pre-existing tiering system of any kind. Level 9 versus level 10 is to illustrate a gap that while noticeable, is not considerable.

Most important sources point towards their closeness, with only him on the table, and end of ROTJ going against it, which makes sense.

Darth Vader, like his predecessors, is already comparable to the Emperor in power upon becoming a Sith apprentice, for such is Darth Sidious' principle requirement in a prospective pupil. As the years roll by, Lord Vader advances ever further in strength, growing nearer and nearer to closing the gap that exists between himself and his master. By the time Lord Vader is strong enough to consider betrayal, Darth Sidious has his replacement lined up.

@lord_tenebrous: u have never seen an OT statement on his huge power growth from ANH to ESB, and fro, ESB to ROTJ?

@famousroman:

I have not, because consistently, he did not.

i see. maybe u should look more into that.

Vader wins with mid-high difficulty if he isn't conflicted. He scales above ROTS Anakin in 14 BBY, so he should be substantially above Sidious if he grew at a normal rate after that.