Darth Sidious (ROTS) vs Darth Vader ( ANH)

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BreakingThrones

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Poll Darth Sidious (ROTS) vs Darth Vader ( ANH) (36 votes)

Darth Sidious wins 47%
Darth Vader wins 47%
Stalemate/uncertain 6%

Canon.

The fight takes place in the abandoned Jedi temple:

No Caption Provided

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Living162637

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Depends on if it’s Pre 66 or post 66, or if you think Sidious even got a significant boost from the Mace fight forward. Vader beats pre 66 Sids pretty easily. Post 66 he still wins, Sids trained him to be Yodas superior

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last0fth3risen

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@living162637: I don't understand, why would Sid get a boost from being disfigured?

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Living162637

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@last0fth3risen:

Not just that, but the DS getting stronger after the Jedi and their death

(Skywalker: A Family At War)

Palpatine should have been weakened by his ordeal. Instead, he rose up, stronger than ever, his eyes the sickly yellow of infection, and loomed over Anakin.

(Revenge of the Sith Junior Novel)

He could sense it happening, though not in detail--but he could feel the dark side growing stronger with every Jedi death.

(The Skywalker Saga)

“You're fulfilling your destiny, Anakin.” Palpatine stood, no longer a weak old man, His face was twisted and destroyed, his eyes gone a sick yellow, but somehow he was more powerful than before

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last0fth3risen

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@living162637: Ah, gotcha. But we don't know how literal this is, and these quotes do sound kind of metaphorical. We do know that the dark side drained Sidious over the next 20 years and made him weaker.

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Living162637

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#5  Edited By Living162637

@last0fth3risen:

How would they be metaphorical? The context is his body and his ordeal SHOULD have weakened him, but he instead became stronger. The sentence after in Skywalker: A Family At War basically gives us the full context

Such was the power of the dark side, feeding on anguish and fear to become even more powerful.

This is the sentence after. His emotions after nearly dying to Windu amplified his power in the Force. How did the DS drain Sidious? Vader and Sidious are confirmed to have grown more powerful after ROTS

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SonOfDarkness

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Vader scales above ROTS Sidious in power by feats and statements. He should also be comparable in lightsaber skill at this point in time, having fully adjusted to his suit. It would be close but Vader should win… unless Palpatine gets in his head, which I could definitely see happening.

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nassergrant19

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#7  Edited By nassergrant19  Online

Vader scales above ROTS Sidious in power by feats and statements. He should also be comparable in lightsaber skill at this point in time, having fully adjusted to his suit. It would be close but Vader should win… unless Palpatine gets in his head, which I could definitely see happening.

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last0fth3risen

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@living162637: It could be metaphorical because Sidious is in a stronger position now, as emperor, and with the jedi gone. This could also be referring to his mental strength. He knows he's won everything, so he's got no more reason to be weak.

Sidious in ROTJ could not wield a lightsaber anymore, and he couldn't see Vader's intentions, despite being able to cloud the entire jedi council, including Yoda, in ROTS.

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Living162637

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#10  Edited By Living162637

@last0fth3risen:

Nothing changed in a political sense. He’s still the Chancellor before and after the fight. Furthermore, the statements have nothing to do with his state as a whole, but only on how the battle has affected him. Furthermore, Order 66 isn’t guaranteed to be a hit, and the Force relies on your mental state. None of these interpretations are mutually exclusive. You’re also ignoring Skywalker: A Family At War which blantantly says the dark side was amping him further after Mace

There’s nothing suggesting he coudnt wield a saber, just that he didn’t. Sidious himself said he prefers the Force to saber combat, and let Vader do all the fighting. Sensing intentions has nothing to do with clouding the Jedis judgement. The dark side as a whole was clouding their judgement, not just Sidious

The phrase “somehow” also implies that this change was not expected. Mace dying would obviously put Sids in a better position, or him being the Emperor would obviously make him more powerful politically. His plan succeeding would again, make him more powerful as a given. The statement expresses disbelief, with simplest conclusion being that despite something that should have weakened him in the Force(Mace fight), he actually became stronger. There is no reversal in any of the interpretations you’ve given, just things that were clear and already the case

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BreakingThrones

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Lord_Tenebrous

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There is no reason to put Darth Vader above the Emperor. That kinda defeats the whole point of Darth Sidious being the master.

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LightorDark

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#13  Edited By LightorDark

Sidious. ROTJ Vader tells Luke, “you don’t know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master.”

Sounds like Vader has been put in his place before by Sidious. I think there is a comic about it, but I haven’t read it.

Edit: I just read the first 11 Vader comics. Sidious wins low diff.

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Famousroman

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There is no reason to put Darth Vader above the Emperor. That kinda defeats the whole point of Darth Sidious being the master.

is this including the fact that both grow vastly in power over the span of 20 years? and that what they started as is nothing compared to what they are now? vader grows in power to dethrone and kill sheev, sheev grows in power to keep being the strongest, over vader as well. what, u dont think vader could ever surpass sheev, no matter how much time passed? sheesh

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CryoLancer47

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#15 CryoLancer47  Online

@sonofdarkness said:

Vader scales above ROTS Sidious in power by feats and statements. He should also be comparable in lightsaber skill at this point in time, having fully adjusted to his suit. It would be close but Vader should win… unless Palpatine gets in his head, which I could definitely see happening.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#16  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@famousroman said:

@lord_tenebrous said:

There is no reason to put Darth Vader above the Emperor. That kinda defeats the whole point of Darth Sidious being the master.

is this including the fact that both grow vastly in power over the span of 20 years? and that what they started as is nothing compared to what they are now? vader grows in power to dethrone and kill sheev, sheev grows in power to keep being the strongest, over vader as well. what, u dont think vader could ever surpass sheev, no matter how much time passed? sheesh

It would not, in fact, include any such premises, for those assertions are quite inaccurate. On-screen there's no evidence of any growth whatsoever from Episode II to Episode VI -- in fact, Darth Sidious proclaims himself capable of summoning the full power of the dark side in Episode III. He's long been at his apex. Any growth between Episode I and Episode II is nowhere implied to be considerable, and we could only assume growth in the first place because we know from Masters Yoda and Mace Windu that the galactic dark side nexus had strengthened, weakening their powers and presumably amplifying that of Darth Sidious'. Sheev Palpatine steps on screen as a mature adult of advanced age, about as old as Mace Windu and a bit younger than Qui-Gon Jinn. He's already the dominant Dark Lord, and the rest is detailing how he swaps out current apprentices with stronger ones, and assumes control of the galaxy.

In canon continuity EU, Darth Sidious notes that his powers have been growing right up through the rise and fall of the First Order, but extended growth does not equate to significant growth.

Fans unintentionally undermine classic characters by inventing all these vast power jumps -- you might as well be using a whole different character at that point. A character being powerful is fun because it's that character, not because you've gone and brushed aside the character as normal to make a completely new version. Though of course, in this particular instance, Rebellion Era Darth Sidious is the original version -- Republic Era Darth Sidious is just a bit younger.

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Famousroman

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@famousroman said:

@lord_tenebrous said:

There is no reason to put Darth Vader above the Emperor. That kinda defeats the whole point of Darth Sidious being the master.

is this including the fact that both grow vastly in power over the span of 20 years? and that what they started as is nothing compared to what they are now? vader grows in power to dethrone and kill sheev, sheev grows in power to keep being the strongest, over vader as well. what, u dont think vader could ever surpass sheev, no matter how much time passed? sheesh

It would not, in fact, include any such premises, for those assertions are quite inaccurate. On-screen there's no evidence of any growth whatsoever from Episode II to Episode VI -- in fact, Darth Sidious proclaims himself capable of summoning the full power of the dark side in Episode III. He's long been at his apex. Any growth between Episode I and Episode II is nowhere implied to be considerable, and we could only assume growth in the first place because we know from Masters Yoda and Mace Windu that the galactic dark side nexus had strengthened, weakening their powers and presumably amplifying that of Darth Sidious'. Sheev Palpatine steps on screen as a mature adult of advanced age, about as old as Mace Windu and a bit younger than Qui-Gon Jinn. He's already the dominant Dark Lord, and the rest is detailing how he swaps out current apprentices with stronger ones, and assumes control of the galaxy.

In canon continuity EU, Darth Sidious notes that his powers have been growing right up through the rise and fall of the First Order, but extended growth does not equate to significant growth.

Fans unintentionally undermine classic characters by inventing all these vast power jumps -- you might as well be using a whole different character at that point. A character being powerful is fun because it's that character, not because you've gone and brushed aside the character as normal to make a completely new version. Though of course, in this particular instance, Rebellion Era Darth Sidious is the original version -- Republic Era Darth Sidious is just a bit younger.

no statement of growth and yet he only quits on the idea of defeating sheev by ROTJ, meaning that sheev got stronger since he last saw him, but sure. summoning the full power =/= mastering the full power. u dont think summoning the full is the ultimate manner of unleashing power, do u? summoning isnt even dishing out the full power, much less dishing it out in most powerful, extreme form. not to mention that the galaxy leans more and more towards the dark side, making his 'summoning' of the dark side more immense as the dark side grows.

ur whole comment is very intricate and well thought out, but still does not disprove anything. vader got stronger in an attempt to surpass sheev, and never managed to do so. point being that he had 20 years of CONSISTENT growth, and managed to stay under ROTS sidious? how interesting

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Kaore

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#18  Edited By Kaore

This is quite a solid fight, not too dissimilar to the other thread pitting ANH Vader against Mace Windu.

Regarding Force power, Sidious has even at this stage has studied the ways of the Sith longer than Darth Vader, and has long since overthrown his Sith Master and had exclusive access to all of Plagueis' teachings and resources. Logically, he's a more educated and practised user of the dark side than Vader. His raw power is second only to Vaders own, but his experience and practice outstrips his apprentices.

Granted, Skywalker benefits from training under a more powerful and experienced master than RoTS Sidious in Sidious' future self, although he hasn't completed his training by overthrowing his mentor as Palpatine did. Vader does have more demonstrable combat experience and possesses raw power unlike anyone else we've seen in the franchise, though. Darth Vader is an extremely powerful and well-trained Sith Lord, one who has mastered his emotions (for the most part) and has his rage serve him, rather than the being ruled by his emotions as lesser Sith like Maul and Savage are.

I'd back Sidious for a decent majority in Force power, maybe 7/10 times. He's more studied, possesses comparable power and Vader has a unique weakness to Force Lightning, a apeciality of Palpatines.

In duelling, it's tough to call as always with high tiers. Darth Sidious has lost to both Mace Windu and Yoda, but he gave both of them excellent competition. Furthermore Palpatine has comfortably handled the combined might of Darth Maul and his brother, Savage Opress, although he did resort to his telekinetic abilities once Maul began to legitimately contend with him in a duel.

Sidious has a pretty limited roster of lightsaber showings, but regardless of how he performs he never disappoints.

Darth Vader is one of the most skilled and physically imposing duelists in the frsnchise - his technical ability and inhuman strength prove impossible for almost anyone to overcome. He's defeated the likes of Ahsoka Tano, struck fear into the heart of Maul and consistently contended with Jedi Council members such as Eeth Koth and Obi-Wan Kenobi, only losing to the latter due to a need to prove himself to his master that he's since overcome as of ANH. I have no doubt that Lord Vader will prove a legitimate challenge to his younger master.

Unfortunately for Anakin, I'm still not convinced he can win this. RoTS Sidious is incredibly agile, technically proficient to a level comparable to Vader and has dealt with opponents of vast physical strength before. Sidious narrowly outduels his apprentice to take a slim majority of 6/10.

Overall, Darth Sidious wins 7.5/10 times, but Darth Vader gives his master an excellent workout.

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WordsBeyondFic0

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Are we going off of Disney canon? If so Darth Vader should take this just off of feats and statements. It honestly just depends on if Palps can get in his head.

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Necromancer76

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Sheev

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ComicGirl21

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#21  Edited By ComicGirl21

For the last time, Vader did not get stronger when he became a handicapped potato. Statements may go both ways on this, but it really is not that controversial - onscreen movie feats that everything else (novels, comics, statements etc) are supposed to be FAITHFUL TO, make that explicitly clear. He was almost killed by noob Luke in ESB. He was completely fodder by ROTJ to Luke who just became a jedi recently. ANH is weaker than both of those. ROTS Vader is still by far the most powerful version of Vader, and it lost to Obi Wan - not nearly the level of Sidious, which was very clearly stated by Yoda on film.

No Caption Provided

Vader was always a whole tier apart from Sidious, that's the whole tragedy of his story - his unrealized potential, on both sides. Palpatine knew that as well, and this is why he was looking forward to replace him with Luke the first chance he had.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#22  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@famousroman:

no statement of growth and yet he only quits on the idea of defeating sheev by ROTJ, meaning that sheev got stronger since he last saw him,

Well, that wouldn't mean the Emperor grew more powerful so as to keep Darth Vader from eclipsing him -- it would only mean that Lord Vader did not believe himself capable of surpassing his master. Darth Sidious could remain at the same power level for the duration of his student's apprenticeship, but that power level is simply a threshold Lord Vader hasn't yet passed.

You would also be making another assumption -- that Darth Vader giving up on his ambition is a concrete fact in canon continuity EU. There are a lot of different published Star Wars writers out there, and something like that depends on who you consult. Here, for instance -- right before the Battle of Endor -- the Emperor muses that in fact, Lord Vader has finally reached the point where he believes himself greater than his master, and therefore must be swapped out, like his predecessors:

Right now he does not use the technology to listen or speak. He does not let the workings of the million troopers and builders crawling around the battle station distract him. No, Emperor Palpatine leans back on his throne and looks out of the great window with his eyes and his feelings. The stars blur as the Force rises up in and around him. It is lightning under his skin. A network of crackling, furious energy in every direction. He feels everything around him: urgency, anger, fear, exactly what he seeks.

The Force draws his senses outward, onward.

He knows what is to come. He has sensed it. He has moved pieces here and there, arranged star systems to suit his plans. The last time he felt this anticipation was some twenty years ago, at the birth of his empire, when everything turned around the creation of his greatest asset: Darth Vader.

Vader has always been conflicted. Palpatine has always been able to use that conflict to his advantage, whispering, promising, manipulating Vader into those moments of singular clarity that make him so powerful in the dark side of the Force.

But no longer. This always happens with apprentices. Palpatine should know; he’s had several. He once was one himself and recalls perfectly the moment he understood that he was better than his master, stronger and more powerful, and killed him. Palpatine will not allow any apprentice of his to reach that same realization -- or think they have.

~ Stories of Jedi and Sith: Masters

but sure. summoning the full power =/= mastering the full power. u dont think summoning the full is the ultimate manner of unleashing power, do u? summoning isnt even dishing out the full power, much less dishing it out in most powerful, extreme form. not to mention that the galaxy leans more and more towards the dark side, making his 'summoning' of the dark side more immense as the dark side grows.

When I used the word "summon", it wasn't a verbatim quotation. It's terminology interchangeable with "muster" or "bring to bear". I meant simply that Darth Sidious boasted that he had the full power of the dark side at his disposal, and was about to employ said power. The quote is as follows: "Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda. Now you will experience the full power of the dark side." And then, the Emperor takes his best shot of dark lightning at the old Jedi. It's clear he believes he's achieved the zenith of dark side might, infusing him with a sense of invincibility. Darth Sidious is pretty much as powerful as, well, the Emperor, from the moment we first see him. We're just waiting for him to unveil his powers and cut loose, and he finally gets that chance in Episode III. "I've been waiting a long time for this moment, my little green friend."

ur whole comment is very intricate and well thought out, but still does not disprove anything. vader got stronger in an attempt to surpass sheev, and never managed to do so. point being that he had 20 years of CONSISTENT growth, and managed to stay under ROTS sidious? how interesting

It's not so cut-and-dry as 20+ years of consistent growth. Darth Vader emerged from those decades more powerful than before -- at least, in canon continuity EU -- but he wouldn't automatically have undergone an uninterrupted, streamlined sequence of booming growth. Much of one's life would simply amount to maintaining one's existing strength and then employing that current strength level in one's duties, intermixed with various opportunities for improvement or decline as one weathers assignment after assignment, and then more concentrated environments like training sessions and meditation of unknowable success. There would be highs and lows, stagnation, the point of diminishing returns, etc.

I would point back to what was said earlier -- there are a number of different "official" takes on the subject of Darth Vader's mentality during this time period. We saw one where Emperor Palpatine believes that, as of the Battle of Endor, he can no longer manipulate Lord Vader, who has reached the point of believing himself better than his master. Here's another perspective, and under this writer's pen -- well, keyboard -- Darth Vader doesn't exactly look back on those 20+ years of allegedly consistent growth with fondness and a sense of accomplishment:

How often had Vader been on the receiving end of Palpatine’s wrath during their many years as master and servant? Vader had lost count. Each attack had made him feel more powerless, more helpless, and thus even more a slave to Palpatine’s whims. The only way to avoid such persecution was to do his master’s bidding. And even when he did so, Vader realized, he was at best rebuilt and at worst replaceable.

There was no real trust between him and the Emperor no sense of equality; certainly no love. Palpatine had created him, named him, and controlled him, refusing to allow him any connection to the man he had been, sensing the danger of the humanity Vader had repressed. Any hint of Anakin Skywalker in Vader was met with pain. Vader was made to serve or suffer, the good in him perverted by Palpatine’s manipulations.

The dark side demanded unquestioning loyalty and servitude, and Vader had done his best to satisfy both requirements. Yet still, Palpatine had treated him as nothing more than a weapon; and for more than twenty years, Vader had submitted, too damaged to defy him.

But Luke, his son, offered clemency and a reprieve from his own depravity. Luke had surrendered himself, faced down the Emperor, and even resisted the dark side’s simmering power. He had spared Vader’s life when it was his for the taking, and in doing so Luke had paid the price, another Skywalker made to endure Palpatine’s tortures.

Vader thought his allegiance to the Sith would make him stronger, but Palpatine was like a creeping disease, infecting everything he touched. The Sith Lord had enforced Vader’s loyalty through fear, pain, and cruelty.

~ Skywalker: Family At War

These aren't glowing memories of continual advancement.

Darth Vader starts out as comparable to the Emperor in power, for sure:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

~ Secrets of the Sith

But in fact, each of Darth Sidious' apprentices began at that level. That was the requirement -- Darth Sidious only accepted someone as an apprentice if they were nearly as strong as himself:

He has had many names. Some given. Some earned. Some taken.

Son. Sheev. Apprentice. Senator. Palpatine. Sith Lord. Sidious. Emperor.

But the one he likes the most is Master.

It was the first name of power he took for himself. A secret name, an invocation of the dark side. Spoken by his first devotee and by every apprentice since. Said with fear and awe, by those who have earned the right.

The weak call him Emperor. It is only those nearly as strong as him in the dark side who know his best name.

And one day soon young Skywalker will get on his knees and say it, too.

He has foreseen it.

~ Stories of Jedi and Sith: Masters

The Emperor demands truly powerful pupils, and there's a sadistic, arrogant thrill to dominating a being in the same league as himself. As the passage goes on to detail, Darth Sidious is aware that the inevitable result is betrayal, and therefore replaces his apprentices by the time they close that power gap, or believe they have:

But no longer. This always happens with apprentices. Palpatine should know; he’s had several. He once was one himself and recalls perfectly the moment he understood that he was better than his master, stronger and more powerful, and killed him. Palpatine will not allow any apprentice of his to reach that same realization -- or think they have.

Darth Maul was prematurely taken out of the picture, Darth Tyranus was replaced with Darth Vader, who is about to be replaced with Luke Skywalker. The Emperor has been playing with fire too long, and as we know, this time he gets burned.

So Darth Vader, the most powerful of Emperor Palpatine's pupils and the longest lasting, comes the closest to overtaking his master. This doesn't necessitate any growth on the master's part, much less to a major degree.

One must also take notice of the fact that despite repeatedly speaking of how past individuals were close to him in strength, Darth Sidious never feels the need to distinguish between his current and past strength level. It's not "Anakin Skywalker, a boy who once rivaled my past mastery, which has since been left in the dust". The Emperor simply says that these characters nearly rivaled his own power. Expected phrasing if Darth Sidious did not strengthen significantly between the two eras. His past and present might is treated interchangeably.

As it so happens, Darth Sidious records that he knew how to fully harness his connection to the dark side as early as his apprenticeship with Darth Plagueis, for according to him, the Sith are trained to master their full potential:

No Caption Provided

~ Secrets of the Sith

Emperor Palpatine clearly believes that he completed his own training under Darth Plagueis, even surpassing his master. In other words, Darth Sidious allegedly maxed out his raw power well before becoming Emperor. Palpatine's surrounding musings continue to paint that picture, for he boasts that his power was "infinite" during the days of his lightsaber duels:

No Caption Provided

~ Secrets of the Sith

You contend that I did not disprove anything, but as I see it, what is there to disprove? I've not seen anything that would prove significant growth on the part of Darth Sidious or Lord Vader.

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Living162637

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#23  Edited By Living162637

@comicgirl21:

None of which you’re saying is even close to valid in Disney canon. The comics go out of their way to show Vader ragdolling Sids straight off the table. Sidious believes his power will be “endless” and that they would rule as one, which atleast implies some sort of equality. LOTS has it verbatim, he improved his connection and focused on the Force more. The adult novels are the “lowest form of canon” per Martin. The junior novels say Sidious believed even with less potential, Vader would be unchallenged and FAR stronger than anyone else in ROTS. 2020 comics confirm Sidious gave Vader “strength beyond imagination” from his time as a Jedi. Let’s not forget the countless statements saying Vader peaked at ANH or ROTJ. The entire basis is that Vader simply gained more rage after ROTS, and could focus it more.

It’s stated in nearly 10 sources ESB Luke was no match for Vader, who was toying and was testing him while still disarming him in like 10 seconds. He was dead equal to Luke, and the same Luke is repeatedly iterated by Yoda that as a Jedi would be able to confront Vader AND Sidious and suceeed where he couldn’t. No ROTS Vader is nowhere near that. Even suited Vader was called “equally as formidable” as ROTS Sidious. Suited Vader is confirmed stronger than KFV so many times it’s ridiculous. This isn’t legends

Yoda thought Sidious defeated Mace and the B Team. He’s overhyping Sidious. Obi wasn’t powerful enough to face Vader either. Many sources detail why Kenobi won.

Maybe his story in the EU. The only reason in canon, however is yearning for Sidious mastery and hax, and his political power. Vader 2020 makes it very clear Vader is more than happy to simply overthrow him. Vader is called the more powerful Sith in more than one occasion. He has never in any reality been fodder to Sids. The weakest ever Vader with a messed up suit restraining and tanking the most powerful Sidious and his lightning for an extended time should have made this clear

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Masma94

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What the hell is this ?

Sidious takes this all day, both in the Force and lightsaber domains.

There's a good reason why even Vader is afraid of his master and why he decided he would never try to defy him without a very strong ally.

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@masma94:

Nothing suggests Vader is either afraid of his master and he’s actively tried to defy him with an ally. A much weaker Vader was called equally as formidable. ROTJ might have a good argument but ROTS Sidious is much weaker and explicitly trained Vader to be his superior at the time

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@lord_tenebrous said:

@famousroman said:

@lord_tenebrous said:

There is no reason to put Darth Vader above the Emperor. That kinda defeats the whole point of Darth Sidious being the master.

is this including the fact that both grow vastly in power over the span of 20 years? and that what they started as is nothing compared to what they are now? vader grows in power to dethrone and kill sheev, sheev grows in power to keep being the strongest, over vader as well. what, u dont think vader could ever surpass sheev, no matter how much time passed? sheesh

It would not, in fact, include any such premises, for those assertions are quite inaccurate. On-screen there's no evidence of any growth whatsoever from Episode II to Episode VI -- in fact, Darth Sidious proclaims himself capable of summoning the full power of the dark side in Episode III. He's long been at his apex. Any growth between Episode I and Episode II is nowhere implied to be considerable, and we could only assume growth in the first place because we know from Masters Yoda and Mace Windu that the galactic dark side nexus had strengthened, weakening their powers and presumably amplifying that of Darth Sidious'. Sheev Palpatine steps on screen as a mature adult of advanced age, about as old as Mace Windu and a bit younger than Qui-Gon Jinn. He's already the dominant Dark Lord, and the rest is detailing how he swaps out current apprentices with stronger ones, and assumes control of the galaxy.

In canon continuity EU, Darth Sidious notes that his powers have been growing right up through the rise and fall of the First Order, but extended growth does not equate to significant growth.

Fans unintentionally undermine classic characters by inventing all these vast power jumps -- you might as well be using a whole different character at that point. A character being powerful is fun because it's that character, not because you've gone and brushed aside the character as normal to make a completely new version. Though of course, in this particular instance, Rebellion Era Darth Sidious is the original version -- Republic Era Darth Sidious is just a bit younger.

no statement of growth and yet he only quits on the idea of defeating sheev by ROTJ, meaning that sheev got stronger since he last saw him, but sure.

That doesn’t necessarily mean Sheev got stronger. Maybe he was nowhere near Sheev to begin with, so the amount of growth wouldn’t matter. He may just never reach Sheev.

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Famousroman

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@lord_tenebrous: this was a very long and yet again, well made argument, only for to say that u just told me that they started out comparable, only Vader to always some step behind, never close enough to fully best his master. The difference between ANH and ESB is pointed out in high level sources, so is ESB to ROTJ. Them being comparable by ANH is VERY often mentioned, just as well. Vader has, beyond the shadow of a doubt, gained AND surpassed sheevs power by ESB

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LightorDark

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Vader has, beyond the shadow of a doubt, gained AND surpassed sheevs power by ESB

This is completely false. Sheev bodies Vader in the Darth Vader comic, puts him in his place, and strips him down to nothing, crushing his artificial limbs and dropping him on Mustafar. This takes place after ESB.

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pedroe2b

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Would have to go with Vader

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Living162637

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#30  Edited By Living162637

@lightordark:

Vader is conflicted during that entire sequence.

Skywalker: A Family At War

“Something inside Vader’s soul awoke, bleary-eyed: doubt. Vader had allowed himself to wallow in his grief. Instead of feeding the darkness, he began to question his dedication to the Sith. After more than two decades, the conflict within the soul of Anakin Skywalker was reignited by the love of the woman who had refused to believe he was irredeemably damaged.”

“The striking façade of her coffin, carved to match her beautiful face in repose, fully exposed the growing weakness in his heart.”

Star Wars Book

“Luke's internal strength and Jedi dedication leave an impression on Vader, gradually eroding his Sith convictions and self-loathing.”

This is the event right before the fight. This is the entire reason Sids punishes him. Sidious even notes he has fallen far and was surprised he could even wield a saber, and notes his weakness returns. Vader has just encountered his son, and his wife’s company, and just seen his dead wife and her last words. It’s very clear even without this he’s not at his best. The entire point of that scene was to show Vader has lost the emotions that make him strong, and was wallowing with grief. Sids fans need to stop using this as an argument

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SonOfDarkness

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@comicgirl21: amazing, every word of what you just said is wrong

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ComicGirl21

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@comicgirl21:

None of which you’re saying is even close to valid in Disney canon.

I'm literally just saying onscreen facts. There's no wrong here, it's what is shown on screen, in canon movies. You can try to enchant it as much as you want, it won't change a thing.

The comics go out of their way to show Vader ragdolling Sids straight off the table.

Secondary showing next to the canon movies. Also, this Sidious wasn't on guard. Hardly proves anything.

Sidious believes his power will be “endless” and that they would rule as one, which atleast implies some sort of equality.

Potentially yes. Like I said, Vader's tragedy is that he never realized his potential, partially because of the suit too.

LOTS has it verbatim, he improved his connection and focused on the Force more.

Secondary statement next to the canon movies. Also, since Vader was turned into a burned potato by Obi Wan, it figures that as he heals, adjusts to the suit etc, he would become gradually more powerful then when he first started - a potato. But it doesn't prove he became more powerful than when he was a jedi at all.

The adult novels are the “lowest form of canon” per Martin. The junior novels say Sidious believed even with less potential, Vader would be unchallenged and FAR stronger than anyone else in ROTS.

Secondary showing next to the canon movies. In the canon movies, Vader is barely a match for Obi Wan, who's not even close to Sidious according to Yoda. Also, Sidious did not specify the timeframe. Once again, Vader COULD'VE become more powerful, but he never fully realized his potential.

2020 comics confirm Sidious gave Vader “strength beyond imagination” from his time as a Jedi.

Vague as all hell. Beyond who's imagination? Also can you start giving proper quotes word by word and not paraphrases, if you want to discuss anything? Like I said, Vader did get stronger in a sense. But he was still a shadow of his former self in many aspects, and movies clearly depict that.

Let’s not forget the countless statements saying Vader peaked at ANH or ROTJ.

Secondary statements next to the canon movies that clearly show otherwise. Also, once again, this may be true for suited Vader, but not in comparison to his Anakin self.

The entire basis is that Vader simply gained more rage after ROTS, and could focus it more.

Vader was in constant state of doubt and conflict whenever we saw him in the suit. Conflicted because of what he did to Padme, conflicted because of Ahsoka, conflicted because of Obi Wan, conflicted because of Luke. Ends up returning to the light side eventually, and once again, never fully reaches his potential. Focus and rage my ass. The guy was a half robot who could barely move, and his mindset was total chaos. You guys just don't get Vader at all lmao.

It’s stated in nearly 10 sources ESB Luke was no match for Vader, who was toying and was testing him while still disarming him in like 10 seconds.

Bruh, you and anyone else can state it as much as you want, it's still a canon fact that Luke would've decapitated Vader if it wasn't for his suit. He tagged him first.

He was dead equal to Luke, and the same Luke is repeatedly iterated by Yoda that as a Jedi would be able to confront Vader AND Sidious and suceeed where he couldn’t.

He wasn't equal to ROTJ Luke, Luke kicked his ass off the stairs after literally a few seconds of saber clashing and then turned off his lightsaber and refused to fight him, just started dodging and hiding. When he actually snapped, Vader was down in seconds once again. Equal my ass.

Also, Yoda was not referring to Luke's combat skills, obviously, he knew he would be able to turn this around in some other way. Luke was no match for the Emperor, Lucas confirmed that if Vader didn't stop Luke's lightsaber when he was swinging at him on his throne, Palps would've killed Luke in a heartbeat with the force.

No ROTS Vader is nowhere near that.

ROTS Anakin is the most powerful one by far. Killed a proper Sith Lord Dooku, went through the jedi temple killing all jedi on his path like a force of nature, including many skilled masters without challenge, and then gave Obi Wan, one of the most powerful jedi of the Order, a fight for his life, nearly killing him on several occasions. At least he could properly move around too... Suited Vader was a joke to nearly all proper jedi he's faced, ever. I swear, how many times Vader would've been dead if it wasn't for the suit??? And like I noticed several times, HE CAN BARELY MOVE. It's ridiculous.

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It's easy to be a terror of the galaxy when there is nobody left to fight but some scattered rebels. ROTS Vader had by far the most difficult task to do, annihilate jedi order in its prime and all of the Separatists leaders... Vader was trashing his suit to the limits every time he fought anyone formidable, barely pulling through. There is not comparing them.

Even suited Vader was called “equally as formidable” as ROTS Sidious.

Secondary statements next to the canon movies. And once again, please give proper quotes and names if you're gonna argue solely based on those.

Suited Vader is confirmed stronger than KFV so many times it’s ridiculous. This isn’t legends

Makes no difference at all.

Yoda thought Sidious defeated Mace and the B Team. He’s overhyping Sidious.

Yoda had no idea Mace was even there bro. He was on the Wookie battlefield, the last transmission he got was before Mace went to arrest Palps.

Obi wasn’t powerful enough to face Vader either. Many sources detail why Kenobi won.

Sources secondary to movies you mean? Yeah, those are literally all you've got, and they're all bad.

Maybe his story in the EU.

Doesn't matter. It's both.

The only reason in canon, however is yearning for Sidious mastery and hax, and his political power. Vader 2020 makes it very clear Vader is more than happy to simply overthrow him.

Once again, give proper quotes, there is nothing to discuss based on something this vague. There are more ways to overthrow people then by being more powerful than them. It was made clear many times Vader is a basically slave to Palpatine, whom he could kill at any moment.

Vader is called the more powerful Sith in more than one occasion.

He has never in any reality been fodder to Sids. The weakest ever Vader with a messed up suit restraining and tanking the most powerful Sidious and his lightning for an extended time should have made this clear

No quotes, nothing to discuss once again. Also, maybe potentially, yes, but actually - it was always Sidious, and Disney clearly made a far more bigger deal out of it than EU ever did, making him this big, immortal Stan like figure that was behind everything all along and is "all the sith" etc. Even more ridiculous then what EU did with the Dark Empire.

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deactivated-62f4d670b688d

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Darth Sidious, definitely. The only area Lord Vader might come close in is raw power, depending on how you interpret some statements, but his master has every other advantage and is consistently portrayed as operating on an overall higher level.

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SonOfDarkness

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@comicgirl21: Uh…. this is “comic”vine, you can’t just ignore the comics and other canon material. Canon consists of movies, books, comics, etc. and in canon Vader clearly scales above ROTS Sidious

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@living162637: First of all, I hate Sidious as a character and talking him up in any way is soul crushing. I won’t deny his power, though, which is beyond Vader.

Sidious discusses Vader becoming more power than him before Obi slices him up. Also, Sidious is a lying, manipulating Sith Lord. We really have no reason to believe anything he says.

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LightorDark

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#36  Edited By LightorDark

@sonofdarkness said:@comicgirl21: Uh…. this is “comic”vine, you can’t just ignore the comics and other canon material.

Since when? I see this happen all the time. Palps ragdolls Vader after ESB, which I know isn’t ROTS Sidious, but my question is what feat of Vader’s allows him to withstand the amount of lightning Sidious was throwing at Yoda?

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Living162637

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Living162637

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@comicgirl21: my entire response got deleted so if you want to debate

https://discord.gg/svMPds8p

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SonOfDarkness

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#39  Edited By SonOfDarkness

@lightordark: unless OP says to use films only then all canon material is valid.

Context. Post ESB Palpatine ragdolled an extremely, weakened, conflicted Vader. That was the whole point. He says he needs to bring Vader “back to power” because he was extremely weakened after finding out the truth of Padme’s death.

Vader can just block lightning with his saber… he did this even while weakened against a far more powerful version of Palpatine.

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LightorDark

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Like he is successfully doing here?

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LightorDark

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ReaperAce

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Legends Vader if he abuses the force, which is a clossal gap.

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RandAlThor2219

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#43  Edited By RandAlThor2219

What I hate about the EU and all these secondary sources is that people seem to give them too much credibility over the actual main canon, which is the six Lucas's movies. These secondary sources contradict the movies, contradict each other, but people still use some statements from them as their primary argument. For anyone who just watched the movies it's crazy to think that someone can actually argue for Vader to be stronger than Palpatine at any time period. I don't know how much clearer the movies needed to imply that Vader has NEVER reached the level of Palpatine. He was supposed to surpass him at his full potential, which was never realised because of the Mustafar duel. A good argument can be made that he became even weaker after that, due to the fact that almost 50% of his body were replaced by cybernetics, which means he lost almost 50% of the medichlorians that he had in ROTS. And ROTS Anakin was nowhere near Sidious either, since Obi Wan, who was dead equal to Anakin at that time, would've died if he went to take Sidious instead of him, and was manhandled by Dooku, someone inferior to Sidious. And I know, everyone will yell that Anakin stomped Dooku, but it was heavily implied by the movie and even stated in some novel that Dooku was going easy on him to test his power. Darth Sidious stomps Darth Vader no matter what movie, show or cartoon he's from, the only version of Vader that can beat him is full potential Anakin, who is basically non-existent

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SonOfDarkness

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@lightordark: Fair, the lightning did overwhelm Vader eventually but like I said he was extremely weakened and this is a far more powerful version of Palpatine. Vader scales over ROTS Palpatine in the force so he should have no problem blocking with his saber.

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LightorDark

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@sonofdarkness: Even if I accept that Vader is weakened, which in itself is debatable. What proves Palps lightning is any stronger than ROTS?

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Living162637

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@lightordark:

He got stronger. Pretty simple. And this is the weakest ever Vader

Edit: why are people obsessed with the “six films” as if they even moderately scale and compare different versions of characters? Secondary material is MADE to clarify and further explain the movies. The secondary material has the PT Titans below Vader. You don’t have to like this, but it’s reality. Sidious literally views Vader as “unparalleled” in power.

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LightorDark

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@living162637: I don’t see it as that simple. We are taking about an specific force power. Sidious’s lightning was able to bend Mace’s saber in ROTS.

If Vader’s plan is to block lightning with his saber, then that’s a short term plan.

Most of the secondary sources are up for interpretation anyway, especially when it talks about some red shirt Jedi who happens to be “one of the best duelists in the order.

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SonOfDarkness

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#48  Edited By SonOfDarkness
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@lightordark: I don’t think it’s really debatable, I mean Palpatone straight up says Vader’s weakness has returned and that he needs to return to power, and find himself again. Anakin/Vader's power has always relied heavily on his mental state. The ordeal with Padme left him severely weakened.

I can’t remember any statements off the top of my head but there’s plenty of evidence for Palpatine growing more powerful. I’ll see what I can find.

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Living162637

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@lightordark:

Lightning is just the Force in a focused blast per Secrets of the Sith. Stronger in the Force = lightning won’t be that much of an issue. Vader is getting overpowered because he’s massively conflicted and a lightsaber is a reflection on one’s force essence

I don’t even know why the term “secondary” is used. The SG has confirmed they abandoned the hierarchy. Movies aren’t some omnipotent source anymore. More material in novels, comics confirm Vader would be Sids superior at this rate and guides and narrative support this.

Also note: Vader tanked the most powerful Sidious ever until the sequels for an extended time period while heavily weakened and a damaged suit. That already implies Vader is close to Sidious. Now make it a more powerful Vader and a much weaker Sids. This difference people make it out to be isn’t even suggested in the films

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nfactor1995

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I don't really see how this is close at all...Sidious should be decisively above any version of suited Vader in both lightsaber combat and Force power.