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#1 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Sidious, Darth Plagueis & Darth Tenebrous

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Legends prime versions for Plagueis and Tenebrous. Darth Sidious (RotS).

Darth Krayt, Darth Caedus & Valkorion

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Legends prime versions for Krayt, Caedus and Valkorion.

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#2 Posted by i_like_swords (26191 posts) - - Show Bio

Krayt >/= Sheev

Valkorion > Plagueis

Tenebrous >/= Caedus

Honestly this fight is a nail-biter but I like the second team, if only slightly.

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#3 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3310 posts) - - Show Bio

Krayt can maybe take Sidious, Caedus can maybe beat Tenebrous and Valk defnitely beats Plagueis.

Team 2 high difficulty.

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#4 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

Sheev vs Krayt: A'Sharad, if only just.

Plagueis vs Caedus: Plagueis smashes lmfao

Tenebrous vs Valk: Vitiate in a nail-biter

It's a coin toss for me tbh. Maybe, just maybe, Team 1 because the gaps between Tenebrous/Valk and Sidious/Krayt are smaller than the pretty glaring disparity between Scheissen and Hego.

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#5 Posted by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

Krayt>/=Rots Sidious>Plagueis>Valkorion>Tenebrous>Caedus. All imo. So I say team 1 in a very good fight.

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#6 Posted by Azronger (4320 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious carries his team to victory.

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#7 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting.

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#8 Posted by the_wspanialy (3901 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2. Tenebrous is a weak link.

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#9 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1179 posts) - - Show Bio

Krayt>Plagueis.

Caedus>>Tenebrous.

Valk>>ROTS Sidious.

Team 2 sweeps.

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#10 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1179 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: Why does Plagueis "Smash" Caedus? Caedus beats him in an amazing fight.

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#11 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio

Nah, unlike Caedus, Plagueis would smash Katarn and friends.

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#12 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1179 posts) - - Show Bio

Nah, unlike Caedus, Plagueis would smash Katarn and friends.

Not only was Caedus suffering from prior injuries during that duel but he also did smash them. So that entire argument becomes moot.

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#13 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio
Not only was Caedus suffering from prior injuries during that duel but he also did smash them.
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#14 Posted by AmethystGravity (2283 posts) - - Show Bio

I was really surprised at some of the responses until I looked back at the OP and saw that Sidious was RotS. In that case, I think team 2 would win a majority.

Also, I feel like Caedus is being downplayed a bit.

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#15 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus is "being downplayed" all the time but he has no actual feats that suggest he has a realistic chance of beating Damask lmfao

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#16 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

Not that I have too much of a problem with Caedus > Plagueis, when the vomit-inducing "claim" Valk >> RotS Sidious popped up in the thread

In these circumstances no less

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#17 Posted by AmethystGravity (2283 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: It's just that I felt the Legacy of the Force novels tried portraying him as being above Vader/Anakin, which I feel is room for beating Plagueis. Of course, it's been a while since I read those, so I'm not sure if there were any direct comparisons made.

Also, surviving against a pretty serious Luke in a somewhat circumstantial battle isn't too terrible, but it depends on how big one views the gap between Plagueis and Legacy Luke.

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#18 Posted by xolthol (928 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123:

Tenebrous vs Valk: Vitiate in a nail-biter

Surprise to see that ... What have change your mind darksith ?

OT: Team 2

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#19 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1179 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: Take up your problems with me with Az, he already told me he doesn't care about my positions lol. And a Vader+ level force user isn't losing to Plagueis.

@worstdebater: You do realise that he hammered them the second he relied on force as opposed to sabers, he was injured too. The team aren't close to Caedus, let it go...

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#20 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1179 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol: If I were to guess I'd say it's due to Az raising Valk or recent arguments made in Valk's favour.

@amethystgravity: DS is salty because of his bias against Caedus. Caedus is>Vader, that's fairly self evident based off accolades and scaling, DS is to far in denial to accept it.

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#21 Edited by xolthol (928 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by happyconformist (12 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus is a terrible weak-link, but Valk carries.

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#23 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio

You mean the part where the Team and Caedus fought evenly?

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#24 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

"Salty"

Forgive me if I don't buy into an assertion entirely based off of a single subjective statement. Forgive me if I don't hold someone who was given grief by Katarn and three fodder Jedi above RotS Sidious. Forgive me if I don't buy into some dodgy scaling which has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

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#25 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol:

I've just changed my views on him. The recent arguments for Valk have helped- Az's personal opinion change had no influence in it whatsoever- but I also managed to look at things more objectively and realize that I was being too harsh with Valk. Not that I like him- not that I will ever have him at RotS Sidious/Yoda level, you're asking for a miracle there- but I can raise him and change my views on him.

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#26 Edited by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by xolthol (928 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by Vitisid (1199 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus above RotS Sidious? What?

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#29 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3310 posts) - - Show Bio

Not that I have too much of a problem with Caedus > Plagueis, when the vomit-inducing "claim" Valk >> RotS Sidious popped up in the thread

In these circumstances no less

On my end that was a typo. Meant to say Krayt>ROTS Sidious and Valk>Plagueis.

I'm still not sure on where I stand on Valk vs ROTS Sidious. I mean if someone could convince me ragdolling The Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann is a feat ROTS Sidious could replicate I'd be more than happy to place him beyond Valkorion or vice versa.

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#30 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Wasn't referring to you. Valk being a rival of RotS Sidious and possibly somewhat superior is a position I disagree with but can comprehend.

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#31 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3310 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Wasn't referring to you. Valk being a rival of RotS Sidious and possibly somewhat superior is a position I disagree with but can comprehend.

Ok.

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#32 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1179 posts) - - Show Bio

@happyconformist: Caedus is a terrible weak-link, but Valk carries.

Caedus is the weakest member of his team but when he's stronger than two members of the opposition 1V1 [Tenebrous and Plagueis] he's not a terrible weak link.

@vitisid: Caedus above RotS Sidious? What?

Kek no, ROTS Sidious beats him in a good fight.

@worstdebater: You mean the part where the Team and Caedus fought evenly?

Team fight evenly with a terribly injured Caedus in sabers but are still on the marginal losing end. Team get absolutely hammered as soon as he starts using the force even in his state. No they aren't comparable as I'll cover for the umpteenth time on KMC, addressing to Zig the major omission of context he's using to lower Caedus's position.

@dark-sith123: "Salty"

Glad you're accurately describing yourself.

Forgive me if I don't buy into an assertion entirely based off of a single subjective statement.

Except that statement is backed by logical scaling so I'd expect you to buy into it yeah.

Forgive me if I don't hold someone who was given grief by Katarn and three fodder Jedi above RotS Sidious.

1.Caedus was injured and as a collective those three fodder Jedi were comparable to Katarn.

2.The team were only able to give grief in pure sabers, whenever Caedus used the force and when he started abusing it they got stomped and went down fast.

3.I don't hold him above ROTS Sidious I think he's be able to give Yoda a great and hellish match but that's it. He'd still lose to Yoda let alone ROTS Sidious. Take that L lmao.

Forgive me if I don't buy into some dodgy scaling which has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

Almost as many holes in it as Az and DOA endorsing a guy who resorts to cowardly not tagging people in his posts, conveniently forgetting about the "Reply" button in the hope they won't see it when both Az and DOA despise such slimy actions. Az and DOA are great guys which makes me wonder why you were given free reign and allowed, not to mention offered to join.

@xolthol: Az has him raised him above Plagueis and he's in that tier according to him, he previously held Valk below Tenebrous.

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#33 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio

I just realized that I made the greatest thread in history of SW debating. I love myself.

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#34 Posted by Vitisid (1199 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Edited by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: I’m probably not the best to convince you of this, but it makes sense. For example, we could switch out Yoda for Rots Sidious and put him against the Outlander, Vaylin, and Arcann. IMO Yoda could replicate Valkorion. He’s already way up there in terms of force power like Valk, but he’s also a master duelist, whereas Valk could only rely on force power. Yoda having both at his disposal gives him a significant advantage imo.

Like I said, I’m not the best expert on Yoda and Valk though.

Also...check your Valk quote in your profile

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#36 Posted by Intrp1d (143 posts) - - Show Bio

I just realized that I made the greatest thread in history of SW debating. I love myself.

Easy now, my son.

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#37 Edited by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio
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This thread will become far more powerful than either of us

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#38 Edited by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

Glad you're accurately describing yourself.

You're shooting yourself in the foot here. Try to prove your points, honey, not mine.

Except that statement is backed by logical scaling

Which line of logical scaling? The one in your CaV opener which you later stated you disagree with and is about to be debunked by me? That one?

1.Caedus was injured

Which I never disputed. Though I question the extent to which Caedus' injuries could have hampered him given how well he dealt with injury in the struggle against Luke.

and as a collective those three fodder Jedi were comparable to Katarn.

The book would disagree, actually:

Three Jedi Knights: the younger Horn, the Falleen Mithric, the Bothan Hu’lya. He resisted the urge to snort. Separately or collectively, these Jedi Knights were no match for him.

Katarn, though, was a threat.

The fodder, even in a collective sense, are laughed at by Jacen, who also happens to feel Katarn is a serious threat. Demonstrably large gap between the two parties, no?

The team were only able to give grief in pure sabers, whenever Caedus used the force and when he started abusing it they got stomped and went down fast.

The duel was actually fairly close until Caedus took Katarn out of the fight with a nearby speeder, which does warrant some merit. However, this only speaks to his tactical genius, not his (alleged) vast superiority over Kyle.

As for the other ones, the book couldn't make it more obvious they're fodder. Schooling fodder won't make him Yoda's rival.

I won't go deeper since, y'know, we have a Caedus CaV going on and it would do us no good if we were to take the whole discussion away from the formal debate.

I don't hold him above ROTS Sidious I think he's be able to give Yoda a great and hellish match but that's it. He'd still lose to Yoda let alone ROTS Sidious.

Oh. Could have clarified that for me.

No Caption Provided

It's just that some previous posts of yours were somewhat misleading.

Almost as many holes in it as Az and DOA endorsing a guy who resorts to cowardly not tagging people in his posts, conveniently forgetting about the "Reply" button in the hope they won't see it

If I didn't want people to see my posts, then explain to me why I would make said posts in a public thread when everyone can see them at their leisure. If I, for some bizarre reason, did not wish for people to read what I post, it would be just a tad counterproductive to post them where they are visible to anyone, right? You're grasping at straws right now, come on. You don't need to stoop to TOR crew level.

Not that someone who runs away from Ziggy every time they (unsuccessfully) try to argue their position has much of a right to run around calling others "slimy cowards", but I digress.

when both Az and DOA despise such slimy actions.

Why, I am certain they despise slimy actions. Not that I would be affected by such a dislike regardless.

Az and DOA are great guys which makes me wonder why you were given free reign and allowed, not to mention offered to join.

Dawn's a nice guy and a good debater, but you do know Az is the Grand Sheevite and thus the only supreme authority regarding Sheevite matters, yes?

As to your question, clear it up with Az. I trust he will provide you with a satisfactory answer.

Chill, my guy. Take a deep breath. You're not thinking clearly right now. We need not go at it again.

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#39 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1179 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: You're shooting yourself in the foot here. Try to prove your points, honey, not mine.

I'm shooting myself in the foot. You meanwhile seem to have accidentally ricocheted it into your head.

Which line of logical scaling? The one in your CaV opener which you later stated you disagree with and is about to be debunked by me? That one?

I said I disagreed with almost all of it, bits and pieces which I'll expand on if need be I still hold as valid.

Which I never disputed. Though I question the extent to which Caedus' injuries could have hampered him given how well he dealt with injury in the struggle against Luke.

If only that were the case.

"In your condition, standing is out of the question, "the droid informed him. "Even if the swelling in your brain doesn't destroy your balance, you have burn damage to your kidney and a perforation in your lung. You're simply too weak."

Legacy Of The Force: Inferno

Shortly after his duel with Luke Caedus can't even stand properly and though he's obviously not in that condition when facing Katarn and co he's still noted to not have recovered.

Caedus hadn't felt the blaster bolt coming. His concentration was slipping.

And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping.

He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke.

Legacy Of The Force: Fury

Next goalpost please, his injuries were extremely extensive.

The book would disagree, actually:

You wish.

The fodder, even in a collective sense, are laughed at by Jacen, who also happens to feel Katarn is a serious threat. Demonstrably large gap between the two parties, no?

1.Katarn wasn't actually a threat to Caedus as seen in the duel itself where he nearly gets his leg chopped off within ten seconds of the duel and needs to be saved by a member of his own team, he was a threat relative to the rest collectively, meaning he's more powerful, something I never disputed but the gap is not large, aka parity.

2.Throughout the duel we see an indicator of the teams overall parity with Kyle, not once were they shown to be carried by him, useless or anything, they kept up against Caedus almost as well as he did, even saving him and coordinating with him perfectly. Helps that Katarn himself is also a duellist on par with late TCW Obi Wan by feats.

The duel was actually fairly close until Caedus took Katarn out of the fight with a nearby speeder, which does warrant some merit. However, this only speaks to his tactical genius, not his (alleged) vast superiority over Kyle.

It was close in sabers yes, until Caedus used the force, then it became laughably one sided.

As for the other ones, the book couldn't make it more obvious they're fodder. Schooling fodder won't make him Yoda's rival.

Which would be relevant if all Caedus did was school fodder. And if the team are such fodder then how come they were the only reason Kyle survived as long as he did throughout the duel? HMMMM.

I won't go deeper since, y'know, we have a Caedus CaV going on and it would do us no good if we were to take the whole discussion away from the formal debate.

Ok.

If I didn't want people to see my posts, then explain to me why I would make said posts in a public thread when everyone can see them at their leisure.

Deflecting an accusation with a question. HMMMMM, it's almost like you don't want to answer said accusation directly.

If I, for some bizarre reason, did not wish for people to read what I post, it would be just a tad counterproductive to post them where they are visible to anyone, right?

You want people to see them, just not me, you're trying to hide it because you'll assume I won't respond if I've not been tagged but people who view the thread will see it. I also noticed you tagged me here so you wouldn't look as bad but you'll sink back to your old habits soon no doubt.

You're grasping at straws right now, come on. You don't need to stoop to TOR crew level.

Some of "TOR Crew" are miles better than either of us so don't pull that ridiculous generalization.

Not that someone who runs away from Ziggy every time they (unsuccessfully) try to argue their position has much of a right to run around calling others "slimy cowards", but I digress.

Ignoring him so much that I'm going to respond to every ridiculous argument he's ever made in regards to Caedus in several massive posts in one thread.

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#40 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1179 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: Oh. Could have clarified that for me. it's just that some previous posts of yours were somewhat misleading.

Yeah I can understand but what I meant by that post is that Caedus is in ROTS Sidious's tier, not above him lol. He'd still lose to Yoda, KF Vader and ROTS Sidious though he'd beat Mace.

Why, I am certain they despise slimy actions. Not that I would be affected by such a dislike regardless.

So you admit your actions are slimy?

Dawn's a nice guy and a good debater, but you do know Az is the Grand Sheevite and thus the only supreme authority regarding Sheevite matters, yes?

I know but I'm just surprised DOA never spoke up about it, I've seen him openly show how much he despises such actions.

As to your question, clear it up with Az. I trust he will provide you with a satisfactory answer.

I did. The answer itself wasn't satisfying though there were benefits to come out of it.

Chill, my guy. Take a deep breath. You're not thinking clearly right now. We need not go at it again.

I don't think I need to point out the irony of you telling me to chill. Top KEK.

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#41 Posted by dark-sith123 (4870 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

Dude. Seriously. Think. Why the hell would I not want you to see my posts? And if so, why the hell would I post them in a public thread where everyone- you included- can see them? Like I mentioned, counterproductive.

And no, my actions aren't slimy, nor do they stem out of fear. Sometimes I just don't hit the Reply button. Sometimes I only continue to do so because people get all riled up about such a petty thing 😂😂😂

(I always tag people when I'm in a discussion with them, btw, not just making a comment on a then)

Regarding the other stuff, I outlined in my post that I would save my points for the CaV. (Just so that *ahem ahem* no one starts making false, baseless, dumbfounded accusations in a desperate attempt to discredit me for some weird reason)

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#42 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1179 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3310 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76 said:

@arkhamasylum3: I’m probably not the best to convince you of this, but it makes sense. For example, we could switch out Yoda for Rots Sidious and put him against the Outlander, Vaylin, and Arcann. IMO Yoda could replicate Valkorion. He’s already way up there in terms of force power like Valk, but he’s also a master duelist, whereas Valk could only rely on force power. Yoda having both at his disposal gives him a significant advantage imo.

I'm still not sure. I'm don't think Yoda really has the combative Force Feats to replicate Valk's showing considering how powerful Arcann, Vaylin and The Outlander are.

Like I said, I’m not the best expert on Yoda and Valk though.

Ok.

Also...check your Valk quote in your profile

Yeah just fixed it. Just realised there were typos in it lol.

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#45 Posted by KeenCraft (738 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious // Valpoorion: Sidious in a lightning fight that pushes Valp's back similar to that canon SoD fight with Talzin (before Maul helps)

Plagueis // Krayt: Plagueis turns Krayt into jelly and does a treble jig on his insides

Tenebrous // Caedus: maybe Caedus ?

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#46 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1179 posts) - - Show Bio

@keencraft: You doubt Caedus? We need to rectify that.

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#47 Posted by KeenCraft (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: Well I'm sure Jacensolo77 is suited for that job. Personally, I haven't had a steady standing on Caedus. He was too all over the place.

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#48 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1179 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: Well I'm sure Jacensolo77 is suited for that job. Personally, I haven't had a steady standing on Caedus. He was too all over the place.

I'll send you a link to my CAV when it's over.

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#49 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: Outlander >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Caedus, my child.

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#50 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1179 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: Outlander >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Caedus, my child.

Caedus reigns supreme.

Search your feelings father, you know it to be true.