Darth Sidious and darth Plagueis vs Voldemort and Dumbledore

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Palpatine005

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#1  Edited By Palpatine005

2 of the strongest Sith from Star wars vs 2 of the strongest wizards from harry potter (in my opinion) fight

Battle takes place in the jedi temple which is deserted

all characters in their prime

composte versions of all star wars characters

Who wins and why?

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Red12789

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Plagueis isn't needed. Sidious speedblitzes and lolstomps.

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Red12789

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DE Sidious could probably solo the entire HP verse with a force storm.

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Palpatine005

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@red12789: How the heck do they speedblitz and stomp lol?

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Red12789

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@palpatine005:

Darth Sidious could move at near-relativistic speeds, based off the fact that he appeared to a blur to Anakin, who could comfortably react to objects moving at respectable fractions of light speed. He's also much faster than people like Darth Maul, or Darth Vader, who move faster than the eye could see and have accomplished things like this:

Easily dodging rapid blaster fire

No Caption Provided

Maul has deflected blaster fire from multiple squads of droids. Each squad is composed of 8 droids:

Calling his long lightsaber to his hand, he made short work of the squad, decapitating them with his blade or exploding them by deflecting blaster bolts back at them. The brief altercation drew several more patrols, the members of which he similarly dismembered.

--End Game

Maul has also created afterimages in the air while deflecting blaster fire from multiple pirates

No Caption Provided

Maul was faster than Qui-Gon Jinn, who could deflect blaster fire from multiple opponents casually.

Even Darth Plagueis, who could deflect omni-directional fire from at least 200 shooters thought Maul was extremely fast

The Zabrak’s fists and legs were as lethal as his lightsaber, and his speed was astounding.

--Darth Plagueis

Maul can also move so fast that holo-recordings fail to record him

Then he sprang to a series of other sites that ultimately carried him to the wall of the principal building, moving with such speed the entire time that whatever holorecordings were being made wouldn't show him unless they were played in slow motion.

--Darth Maul (Saboteur)

Darth Vader can move so fast he appears to teleport

No Caption Provided

Vader can also form afterimages of his lightsaber:

No Caption Provided

Vader could deflect blaster fire coming in from multiple directions

Wings uplifted, the shuttle made a rough landing on the tier, bolts from Wookiee blasters careening from the fuselage. When the boarding ramp had extended, Appo and his stormtroopers hurried outside, Vader right behind him, his ignited blade deflecting fire from all sides.

-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader

He moves faster than the eye could follow

Faster than a human eye could follow, Vader's lightsaber was up, activated and moving. Grammel's slashed form pitched wildly, stumbled backward and tumbled over the side of the crawler. There was a lull as the stunned driver looked on in terror.

-- Splinter Of The Mind's Eye

Vader can effortlessly deflect multiple blaster bolts at close range

No Caption Provided

Those are just some of the speed feats for people like Darth Maul and Darth Vader, who are considerably below Sidious in terms of speed. Not to mention Sidious speedblitzed Agen Kolar, Saesee Tinn and Kit Fitso, the latter whom had bested General Grievous, before they could react.

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--The Complete Visual Dictionary

Kolar, Tinn and Fitso were all regarded as some of the best swordsmen the Jedi order had ever produced, and were fast enough to survive blaster fire coming in at them from multiple directions.

All of this suggests that Palpatine could effortlessly speedblitz anyone in the Harry Potter verse, who don't have any feats that suggest that their speed and reaction time are above that of a peak human at most. Not to mention DE Sidious (which is Sidious' prime in Legends) could drain the life force of colossal populations, use force storms to annihilate entire planets and fleets of starships, create wormholes that can transport objects to the other side of the galaxy, create ripples in time/space etc.

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Palpatine005

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@red12789

Where does it say that Sidious moves at relativistic speeds? where does it say that Sidious was faster than Maul or Vader? how do we know that Fitso, Tinn and Kolar are faster than Dumbledore or Voldemort. besides voldemort and dumbledore can instakill him with a killing curse or imperio them or simply just turn them into a cup or something like that

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Red12789

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#8  Edited By Red12789

@palpatine005:

In ROTS, Anakin could react to ships moving at sublight speeds

Obi-Wan was already making that exact move as Anakin spoke. But they were inverted to each other: breaking right shot him one way while Anakin whipped the other. The tri-fighters' cannons ripped space between them, tracking faster than their starfighters could slip. His onboard threat display chimed a warning: two of the droids had remote sensor locks on him. The others must have lit up his partner. "Anakin! Slip-jaws!"

"My thought exactly."

They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.

But these particular pilots were far from merely human.

The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.

--Revenge of the Sith Novelisation

Despite being able to generate afterimages and react to ships moving at near-relativistic speed at the very least, he could only perceive Palpatine as a blur.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.

--Revenge of the Sith novelisation

And you want proof that Sidious was faster than Maul and Vader? I thought that was common knowledge lmao.

It should be noted that Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul in the instance below.

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

--Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

On the other hand, in the Legends continuity, a clone of TPM Maul that retained all of Maul's capabilities has moved faster than ANH Vader

No Caption Provided

So basically in terms of speed, Sidious>>>>Maul>Vader

And are you kidding me? Do you really need proof that Tinn, Fitso and Kolar, all of whom could deflect omni-directional blaster fire as shown in the Battle of Geonosis are faster than Dumbledore and Voldemort, who don't have any respectable speed feats.

For reference, Tinn was so fast that effortlessly parried blaster attacks so fast his blade was a blur:

Not far away, Saesee Tiin led another pair of judicials in a charge against a half a dozen terrorists entrenched in a narrow alley between two of the pyramids, his blade a blur of cobalt as it parried bolts and sent blasters flying from outstretched hands.

--Cloak of Deception

Kit Fitso could hold his own against General Grievous, who could deliver attacks at a rate of 20 strikes per second.

While Kolar doesn't have many speed feats, he was at least comparable to both Tinn and Fitso in this category, and so we can safely assume he is similarly as fast as them.

The killing curse isn't an insta-kill attack. It has been shown that the killing curse can easily be dodged by unfit teenagers like Hermione, who has no feats suggesting she is faster than the average human. Are you saying that someone who could blitz people who could deflect omni-directional blaster fire can't dodge something that an unfit teenager could dodge? And that's considering Voldemort doesn't get straight up blitzed before he can react, which he probably will

The Imperius curse only works on the weak-willed, which Sidious isn't, and most other spells that Dumbledore and Voldemort can use can be easily dodged by someone who moves at relativistic speeds and has precog, and that's considering, once again, they don't get blitzed before they react.

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Void_Reborn

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Lol, Sidious and Plagueis blitzstomp this duo. Just read the scans and explanations Red posted.

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AnakinVader99

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@red12789 said:

@palpatine005:

In ROTS, Anakin could react to ships moving at sublight speeds

Obi-Wan was already making that exact move as Anakin spoke. But they were inverted to each other: breaking right shot him one way while Anakin whipped the other. The tri-fighters' cannons ripped space between them, tracking faster than their starfighters could slip. His onboard threat display chimed a warning: two of the droids had remote sensor locks on him. The others must have lit up his partner. "Anakin! Slip-jaws!"

"My thought exactly."

They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.

But these particular pilots were far from merely human.

The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.

--Revenge of the Sith Novelisation

Despite being able to generate afterimages and react to ships moving at near-relativistic speed at the very least, he could only perceive Palpatine as a blur.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.

--Revenge of the Sith novelisation

And you want proof that Sidious was faster than Maul and Vader? I thought that was common knowledge lmao.

It should be noted that Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul in the instance below.

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

--Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

On the other hand, in the Legends continuity, a clone of TPM Maul that retained all of Maul's capabilities has moved faster than ANH Vader

No Caption Provided

So basically in terms of speed, Sidious>>>>Maul>Vader

And are you kidding me? Do you really need proof that Tinn, Fitso and Kolar, all of whom could deflect omni-directional blaster fire as shown in the Battle of Geonosis are faster than Dumbledore and Voldemort, who don't have any respectable speed feats.

For reference, Tinn was so fast that effortlessly parried blaster attacks so fast his blade was a blur:

Not far away, Saesee Tiin led another pair of judicials in a charge against a half a dozen terrorists entrenched in a narrow alley between two of the pyramids, his blade a blur of cobalt as it parried bolts and sent blasters flying from outstretched hands.

--Cloak of Deception

Kit Fitso could hold his own against General Grievous, who could deliver attacks at a rate of 20 strikes per second.

While Kolar doesn't have many speed feats, he was at least comparable to both Tinn and Fitso in this category, and so we can safely assume he is similarly as fast as them.

The killing curse isn't an insta-kill attack. It has been shown that the killing curse can easily be dodged by unfit teenagers like Hermione, who has no feats suggesting she is faster than the average human. Are you saying that someone who could blitz people who could deflect omni-directional blaster fire can't dodge something that an unfit teenager could dodge? And that's considering Voldemort doesn't get straight up blitzed before he can react, which he probably will

The Imperius curse only works on the weak-willed, which Sidious isn't, and most other spells that Dumbledore and Voldemort can use can be easily dodged by someone who moves at relativistic speeds and has precog, and that's considering they don't get blitzed before they react.

Not denying Palpatine can't blitz Voldy or dumbledore but Anakin, when he saw a blur from Palpatine, was vastly weaker than he was when he was looking at the ships in slow motion as he was conflicted and sleep deprived while on the ships he was both physically and mentally fine not to mention Anakin is also comparable to Dooku and Yoda who Palpatine can't speedblitz so...

Not saying either Anakin can beat Palpatine but to suggest Palpatine can speedblitz him suggest he can speedblitz Dooku and Yoda

Also that Vader is a lot weaker than ROTJ Vader by a few magnitudes so Maul is not faster than prime Vader either plus that Maul was also amped so...

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thebluedragon20

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The sith stomp. Harry Potter characters are not fast enough, and their magic is countered perfectly by most Jedi or sith. The force can just easily incapacitate them before they can get a spell off.

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Red12789

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#12  Edited By Red12789

@anakinvader99

I agree that Anakin was definitely not near his peak mentally, and I wasn't trying to suggest that Palpatine could speedblitz Anakin. However, the fact that he could appear as a blur to almost any version of a person who could visualise ships travelling at relativistic speeds in slow motion means that he can move at near-relativistic speeds and should allow him to comfortably blitz 2 wizards who don't have great reaction/speed feats. Also, appearing as a blur to a particular person doesn't necessarily mean you could speedblitz them.

I also agree that Vader wasn't prime, but most of those feats that I showed were also achieved by Vader way before his prime, so he was still very fast at that time. Also, whether Maul is faster than prime Vader is another topic that is highly debatable in and of itself, since speed is definitely one of suited Vader's main weaknesses.

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TheOverDaddy

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@red12789

Where does it say that Sidious moves at relativistic speeds? where does it say that Sidious was faster than Maul or Vader? how do we know that Fitso, Tinn and Kolar are faster than Dumbledore or Voldemort. besides voldemort and dumbledore can instakill him with a killing curse or imperio them or simply just turn them into a cup or something like that

Sidious disintegrates them with his force lightning before they can even think about what spell to use.

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@palpatine005 said:

@red12789

Where does it say that Sidious moves at relativistic speeds? where does it say that Sidious was faster than Maul or Vader? how do we know that Fitso, Tinn and Kolar are faster than Dumbledore or Voldemort. besides voldemort and dumbledore can instakill him with a killing curse or imperio them or simply just turn them into a cup or something like that

Sidious disintegrates them with his force lightning before they can even think about what spell to use.

He doesn't need to. He can just speedblitz both of them with ease, even if the starting distance is considerably far

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Erkanbeater

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#15  Edited By Erkanbeater

Either would solo the verse easily

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Erkanbeater

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Spite thread

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AnakinVader99

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@red12789 said:

@anakinvader99

@anakinvader99

I agree that Anakin was definitely not near his peak mentally, and I wasn't trying to suggest that Palpatine could speedblitz Anakin. However, the fact that he could appear as a blur to almost any version of a person who could visualise ships travelling at relativistic speeds in slow motion means that he can move at near-relativistic speeds and should allow him to comfortably blitz 2 wizards who don't have great reaction/speed feats. Also, appearing as a blur to a particular person doesn't necessarily mean you could speedblitz them.

Ok then some would argue lightspeed is more casual in SW due to a couple of material suggesting Jedi move at light speed

I also agree that Vader wasn't prime, but most of those feats that I showed were also achieved by Vader way before his prime, so he was still very fast at that time. Also, whether Maul is faster than prime Vader is another topic that is highly debatable in and of itself, since speed is definitely one of suited Vader's main weaknesses.

It is but most people that should blitz Vader due to their insane speed feats are unable to and couldn't even properly get through his guard. Vader also was comfortable with other fast opponents like Starkiller and Ahsoka so, in my opinion, it feels like an outlier fight since so many Jedi masters couldn't tag him that much and Qui-gon and Obi-wan both of whom I don't see either matching Vader for that long. Think about it TPM Obi-wan was not once tagged by Maul with his lightsaber and cut his lightsaber staff much more quickly which suggests TPM Obi-wan could compete with Vader on any level.

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Red12789

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@anakinvader99:

"Ok then some would argue lightspeed is more casual in SW due to a couple of material suggesting Jedi move at light speed"

I agree but it doesn't really make any difference in thisfight. Also, where's the material that Jedi can move at light speed? Sidious could probably move at near-relativistic speeds, but that's not anywhere near lightspeed yet.

"It is but most people that should blitz Vader due to their insane speed feats are unable to and couldn't even properly get through his guard. Vader also was comfortable with other fast opponents like Starkiller and Ahsoka so, in my opinion, it feels like an outlier fight since so many Jedi masters couldn't tag him that much"

Fair enough. I'm not saying that Vader is slow by any means, he is definitely fast enough contend with extremely fast opponent, including ones that are probably faster than him. However, I'm not sure if that fight was an outlier though, since other fast opponents have tagged Vader before.

"Qui-gon and Obi-wan both of whom I don't see either matching Vader for that long. Think about it TPM Obi-wan was not once tagged by Maul with his lightsaber and cut his lightsaber staff much more quickly which suggests TPM Obi-wan could compete with Vader on any level."

TPM Kenobi only contended with Maul and cut his saberstaff when he was rage-amped by Qui-Gon's death. Also, just because you have comparable or heck, even superior speed than your opponent doesn't mean you can compete with them (I'm not trying to say TPM Kenobi is faster than Vader).

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Lord_Tenebrous

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Either Sith can solo.

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AnakinVader99

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@red12789 said:

@anakinvader99:

"Ok then some would argue lightspeed is more casual in SW due to a couple of material suggesting Jedi move at light speed"

I agree but it doesn't really make any difference in thisfight. Also, where's the material that Jedi can move at light speed? Sidious could probably move at near-relativistic speeds, but that's not anywhere near lightspeed yet.

Well, a couple of things like some blaster bolts are outright stated to be lightspeed and common yet they blocked them on the daily and some may deny it but to me, it's like saying Superman can't lift a planet just because he doesn't do that every time doesn't mean we should discredit it if not why can't we discredit everything just because it happened once or twice for example how many times does Palpatine drain planets? Once. Why should we use that as consistent but disregard other things?

"It is but most people that should blitz Vader due to their insane speed feats are unable to and couldn't even properly get through his guard. Vader also was comfortable with other fast opponents like Starkiller and Ahsoka so, in my opinion, it feels like an outlier fight since so many Jedi masters couldn't tag him that much"

Fair enough. I'm not saying that Vader is slow by any means, he is definitely fast enough contend with extremely fast opponent, including ones that are probably faster than him. However, I'm not sure if that fight was an outlier though, since other fast opponents have tagged Vader before.

Yes but if Ahsoka and Luke around that period couldn't tag Vader why can Maul since he has no feats to prove he is faster than either

"Qui-gon and Obi-wan both of whom I don't see either matching Vader for that long. Think about it TPM Obi-wan was not once tagged by Maul with his lightsaber and cut his lightsaber staff much more quickly which suggests TPM Obi-wan could compete with Vader on any level."

TPM Kenobi only contended with Maul and cut his saberstaff when he was rage-amped by Qui-Gon's death. Also, just because you have comparable or heck, even superior speed than your opponent doesn't mean you can compete with them (I'm not trying to say TPM Kenobi is faster than Vader).

A rage-amp isn't usually that great especially when Obi-wan is a lot weaker in the force than most people who call on rage-amps sure they are good but I don't remember a rage amp that amped the user to a ridiculous degree to the point where they could overpower someone that outmatched them, for example, Anakin and Dooku where already close a rage amp did not make Anakin speedblitz Dooku despite the fact his rage amps should be better than anyone else who uses a rage-amp

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Red12789

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@anakinvader99:

"Well, a couple of things like some blaster bolts are outright stated to be lightspeed and common yet they blocked them on the daily and some may deny it but to me,"

When was that stated? That would basically mean that Darth Sidious is much faster than lightspeed because he speedblitzed Fitso, Kolar and Tinn, who all could block omni-directional blaster fire

" it's like saying Superman can't lift a planet just because he doesn't do that every time doesn't mean we should discredit it if not why can't we discredit everything just because it happened once or twice for example how many times does Palpatine drain planets? Once. Why should we use that as consistent but disregard other things?"

When did I do that?

"Yes but if Ahsoka and Luke around that period couldn't tag Vader why can Maul since he has no feats to prove he is faster than either"

Luke did actually tag Vader in ESB, though Vader was toying with him and holding back. Ahsoka tagged him as well using a cheap shot. Legends Maul has feats to prove that he is faster than both Canon ESB Luke and Ahsoka, and he was also fighting Legends Vader, who is probably weaker than Canon Vader.

"A rage-amp isn't usually that great especially when Obi-wan is a lot weaker in the force than most people who call on rage-amps sure they are good but I don't remember a rage amp that amped the user to a ridiculous degree to the point where they could overpower someone that outmatched them, for example, Anakin and Dooku where already close a rage amp did not make Anakin speedblitz Dooku despite the fact his rage amps should be better than anyone else who uses a rage-amp"

So? Since Padawan Obi-Wan has no feats suggesting that he has already surpassed his master, who was defeated by Maul without much difficulty once the fight turned into a 1v1, TPM Kenobi should've also been defeated by Maul handily. However, he tagged Maul and basically stalemated the latter, forcing him to use his force powers. Rage amps also commonly provide substantial amps. Using your example of Anakin and Dooku, Anakin and Dooku were quite evenly matched before Anakin got an amp, after which Anakin handily bested Dooku. Savage, when getting an amp, was able to choke Dooku and Ventress simultaneously, fight Anakin and Kenobi at the same time, and force blast squadrons of droids after being shot multiple times through the chest and back. I know that Kenobi isn't extremely attuned in the force, but that doesn't mean that a rage amp would boost his powers by a considerable amount.

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AnakinVader99

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@red12789 said:

@anakinvader99:

"Well, a couple of things like some blaster bolts are outright stated to be lightspeed and common yet they blocked them on the daily and some may deny it but to me,"

When was that stated? That would basically mean that Darth Sidious is much faster than lightspeed because he speedblitzed Fitso, Kolar and Tinn, who all could block omni-directional blaster fire

In a book which has basically a padawan training then the droid shoots him which he blocks and like calculates the blaster bolt to be light-speed and a couple of other quotes

" it's like saying Superman can't lift a planet just because he doesn't do that every time doesn't mean we should discredit it if not why can't we discredit everything just because it happened once or twice for example how many times does Palpatine drain planets? Once. Why should we use that as consistent but disregard other things?"

When did I do that?

I meant that people don't like considering that to be consistent with blaster bolt speed so I am arguing why should people do that

"Yes but if Ahsoka and Luke around that period couldn't tag Vader why can Maul since he has no feats to prove he is faster than either"

Luke did actually tag Vader in ESB, though Vader was toying with him and holding back. Ahsoka tagged him as well using a cheap shot. Legends Maul has feats to prove that he is faster than both Canon ESB Luke and Ahsoka, and he was also fighting Legends Vader, who is probably weaker than Canon Vader.

Yes both were not really valid strikes compared to Maul's strikes. I believe on Luke but Ahsoka? Maul doesn't really have much to suggest he is faster. Actually Vader in Canon is trumped by legends, in speed,strength,durability,power and knowledge canon hasn't really done anything to suggest Vader is that great besides accolades

"A rage-amp isn't usually that great especially when Obi-wan is a lot weaker in the force than most people who call on rage-amps sure they are good but I don't remember a rage amp that amped the user to a ridiculous degree to the point where they could overpower someone that outmatched them, for example, Anakin and Dooku where already close a rage amp did not make Anakin speedblitz Dooku despite the fact his rage amps should be better than anyone else who uses a rage-amp"

So? Since Padawan Obi-Wan has no feats suggesting that he has already surpassed his master, who was defeated by Maul without much difficulty once the fight turned into a 1v1, TPM Kenobi should've also been defeated by Maul handily. However, he tagged Maul and basically stalemated the latter, forcing him to use his force powers. Rage amps also commonly provide substantial amps. Using your example of Anakin and Dooku, Anakin and Dooku were quite evenly matched before Anakin got an amp, after which Anakin handily bested Dooku. Savage, when getting an amp, was able to choke Dooku and Ventress simultaneously, fight Anakin and Kenobi at the same time, and force blast squadrons of droids after being shot multiple times through the chest and back. I know that Kenobi isn't extremely attuned in the force, but that doesn't mean that a rage amp would boost his powers by a considerable amount.

What do you mean not much difficulty the two were dueling evenly the majority of the time and it's outright stated that Qui-gon gave him more difficulty than any other and lost to stamina issues not to mention in the movie we see him using a cheap move to beat Qui-gon. Not really without much difficulty. Beaten? Yes easily? I don't think Obi-wan should beat that easily. Yes he beat him but nowhere was it a speedblitz or outright loss. Savage is one of the worst examples you could use that would be like using the non canon force sensitive robot since both have horrible writting. A good amount but nowhere near 200% boost

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Red12789

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"Yes both were not really valid strikes compared to Maul's strikes. I believe on Luke but Ahsoka? Maul doesn't really have much to suggest he is faster. Actually Vader in Canon is trumped by legends, in speed,strength,durability,power and knowledge canon hasn't really done anything to suggest Vader is that great besides accolades"

Legends Maul pre-prime before TPM has plenty of good speed feats, many of which I've posted above. I haven't seen anything more impressive than that from canon Ahsoka or Legends Vader. Also, Canon Vader is a superior duelist than Legends Vader, since Canon Vader apparently surpassed his ROTS iteration in a matter of 5 years.

"What do you mean not much difficulty the two were dueling evenly the majority of the time and it's outright stated that Qui-gon gave him more difficulty than any other and lost to stamina issues not to mention in the movie we see him using a cheap move to beat Qui-gon."

Since when Qui-Gon and Kenobi were separated, Maul won in a matter of around 30 seconds. Before that, Maul fought both Kenobi and Qui-Gon evenly, and stamina is a factor in a lightsaber duel, so it doesn't actually matter if Qui-Gon lost due to stamina; he still lost and Maul didn't use a cheap move to beat him.

"Not really without much difficulty. Beaten? Yes easily? I don't think Obi-wan should beat that easily. Yes he beat him but nowhere was it a speedblitz or outright loss."

I said handily. I didn't say that Kenobi would outright lose very quickly, or he'd get speedblitzed, I was referring to the fact that Maul should gain a solid majority on Kenobi almost every time under normal circumstances

"Savage is one of the worst examples you could use that would be like using the non canon force sensitive robot since both have horrible writting. A good amount but nowhere near 200% boost"

I never suggested there would be a 200% boost. Regardless, tons of SW characters have been boosted considerably by rage amps, and Obi-Wan would've likely been no exception.

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ScotticusRex

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The Sith blitz.

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Erkanbeater

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Either solostomp the verse

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King-Ragnar

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DE Sidious solos the verse.

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Palpatine005

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@red12789:

Voldemort can fly out of reach of palpatine, teleport around, use ropes to bind him, use fiendfyres conjure snakes so on so forth. he has so much more versatility in his abilities that it's acually funny Lol. i never said that voldemort would win, but he can definitely hold his own and might be able to beat him. Lol and palpatine can't move faster than teleportation voldemort can apparate behind him and shoot a curse at him lol.

plus with all of voldemort's horcruxes, how is sidious going to kill him easily when he can't even permanently kill him? besides, we've never seen palpatine move at relativistic speeds in the movies which are immovable canon have we, nor have we seen him move that fast in comic books. Besides, doesn't moving at relativistic speeds defy the physical laws of our world lol??

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Red12789

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#28  Edited By Red12789

@palpatine005:

Voldemort can fly out of reach of palpatine

And Palpatine can easily pull him back to the ground with the force

teleport around,

Irrelevant if he gets blitzed before he teleports. Besides, Palpatine has precog and can easily sense that.

use ropes to bind him

Palpatine easily slices those apart.

use fiendfyres conjure snakes so on so forth.

In Legends, Palpatine's force barriers could withstand force storms that were powerful enough to decimate planets, so he could easily use them to hold the fiendfyre off.

he has so much more versatility in his abilities that it's acually funny Lol

He does not LOL. These are the abilities that EU Palpatine possesses and can use masterfully

-Force Storm and wormholes

-Essence Transfer

-Telekinesis

-Midi-chlorian manipulation

-Sith Lightning

-Force Choke

-Telepathy

-Empathy

-Force Sense

-Precognition

-Augmented sight/hearing

-Force concealment

-Beast control

-Dark side burst

-Force Redirection

-Force Maelstrom

-Force Push and Pull

-Force Drain

-Force speed

-Force barrier

-Alter Environment

-Force combustion

-Immovability

-Mask

-Sith Sorcery

-Force Fear

-Force Heal

-Saber Throw

-Mechu Deru

-Force augmentation which greatly enhances an individual’s physical abilities

-Dark Rage

-Force Protection

These are some notable force powers that Sidious has mastered and can and has used very proficiently. Some force abilities, like sith alchemy or invoking the spirits of ancient sith, though powerful, require complex rituals and processes to achieve. These abilities I haven’t included since there is presumably no prep time.

Palpatine also has skill in many forms of both armed and unarmed combat and possesses combat skills such as:

-Various eccentric and illegal martial arts, many of which he taught to Darth Maul

-Extreme precision and timing

-Extreme speed and reflexes: In fact, Sidious moves so fast that according to the ROTS novelization, Anakin could perceive ships moving at sub-light speed in slow motion, but only saw Sidious moving around in a blur during his fight with Windu. This implies that Sidious can move at sub-relativistic (close-to-light) speed, and yes, it is ridiculous but true. He also speedblitzed three Jedi Master’s before Windu could react, and even when withholding his power, he was easily too much for Maul and Savage to handle

-Extreme Strength: Palpatine was able to match a Vaapad enhanced Windu’s strength in sabre locks during their duel. Windu’s was so strong that he eliminated a super battle droid with a single punch. He could also match the strength of Savage Opress and Maul at the same time in bladelocks too.

-Stamina: Sidious was able to keep up with Yoda’s speed, which was most likely enhanced by the force and battle meditation and their fight lasted almost as long as the one between Anakin and Obi-Wan.

-Lightsaber duelling: As everyone already knows, Sidious was one of the best duelists in the entire SW universe, and was highly adept with all seven forms of Lightsaber combat, making him very versatile and unorthodox.

And none of Voldemort's powers even matter if he gets blitzed before he can react.

Lol and palpatine can't move faster than teleportation voldemort can apparate behind him and shoot a curse at him lol.

Palpatine has precog and lightning fast reflexes, so he can easily dodge the curse. You're also missing my point. Palpatine can move at relativistic speeds, so he can blitz Voldemort before the latter could react. How is Voldemort going to teleport if he is dead before he even has the chance to react?

plus with all of voldemort's horcruxes, how is sidious going to kill him easily when he can't even permanently kill him?

Neither can Voldemort since Palpatine has tons of clones that he can transfer his essence into. Unlike Voldemort, Palpatine isn't extremely weak when his body is destroyed, nor does he require external assistance to get back into a physical body

besides, we've never seen palpatine move at relativistic speeds in the movies which are immovable canon have we, nor have we seen him move that fast in comic books.

Of course we haven't since if he moves at relativistic speeds in the movies, nobody is going to be able to comprehend what's happening. He has moved that fast in Legends though, and scales well above the likes of Maul and Vader who have extremely impressive speed feats in the comic books.

Besides, doesn't moving at relativistic speeds defy the physical laws of our world lol??

The SW universe and HP universe both defy the physical laws of our world lol

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Manofthunderbolts65

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EU Palps solostomps while watching TV inside a star destroyer

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Palpatine005

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@red12789 fine fair enough you make some good points. do you think it would be more fair if sidious was made canon only and plagueis was removed or if sidious was changed to his movie version.

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Red12789

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@palpatine005:

If Palpatine was canon only, he would still win mid-diff at best though it probably won't be a stomp anymore. If it was movies only for Palpatine, remove either Grindleward or Voldemort and it would be a fairly balanced fight.

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Lock this thread. Red already explained how much of a stomp this is.

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If mildly athletic teenagers can dodge AK, then there is no chance of either of them tagging the SW people.

The P Team stomp

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AnakinVader99

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@red12789 said:

"Yes both were not really valid strikes compared to Maul's strikes. I believe on Luke but Ahsoka? Maul doesn't really have much to suggest he is faster. Actually Vader in Canon is trumped by legends, in speed,strength,durability,power and knowledge canon hasn't really done anything to suggest Vader is that great besides accolades"

Legends Maul pre-prime before TPM has plenty of good speed feats, many of which I've posted above. I haven't seen anything more impressive than that from canon Ahsoka or Legends Vader. Also, Canon Vader is a superior duelist than Legends Vader, since Canon Vader apparently surpassed his ROTS iteration in a matter of 5 years.

Like which? Vader has fought armies, moved faster than thought, and moved faster than ROTS Obi-wan while nowhere near his prime? Ahsoka it depends. Anakin in Canon would probably get crushed by Legends Anakin as he has better feats and accolades

"What do you mean not much difficulty the two were dueling evenly the majority of the time and it's outright stated that Qui-gon gave him more difficulty than any other and lost to stamina issues not to mention in the movie we see him using a cheap move to beat Qui-gon."

Since when Qui-Gon and Kenobi were separated, Maul won in a matter of around 30 seconds. Before that, Maul fought both Kenobi and Qui-Gon evenly, and stamina is a factor in a lightsaber duel, so it doesn't actually matter if Qui-Gon lost due to stamina; he still lost and Maul didn't use a cheap move to beat him.

Actually the majority of their duel was Qui-gon vs Maul solo from 01:15 to 03:07 Qui-gon and Maul were slugging it out with Maul being driven back while Qui-gon was on the offensive only giving in to stamina he even breached Maul's guard and Maul had to hit him with his hilt before stabbing not really beating him with pure skill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqdESArkqU&t=184s

"Not really without much difficulty. Beaten? Yes easily? I don't think Obi-wan should beat that easily. Yes he beat him but nowhere was it a speedblitz or outright loss."

I said handily. I didn't say that Kenobi would outright lose very quickly, or he'd get speedblitzed, I was referring to the fact that Maul should gain a solid majority on Kenobi almost every time under normal circumstances

Not really sure though it was stated in Legends Maul used a technique that basically used Obi-wan's rage against him basically a form of Vaapad

Savage is one of the worst examples you could use that would be like using the non canon force sensitive robot since both have horrible writting. A good amount but nowhere near 200% boost"

I never suggested there would be a 200% boost. Regardless, tons of SW characters have been boosted considerably by rage amps, and Obi-Wan would've likely been no exception.

Still shouldn't be much more than a 15% at most for Obi-wan as not only was he not that force sensitive he also wouldn't be able to channel his rage properly as a sith would

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deactivated-5f3f3e796cbd9

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Team 1

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Red12789

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@anakinvader99:

Like which? Vader has fought armies, moved faster than thought, and moved faster than ROTS Obi-wan while nowhere near his prime? Ahsoka it depends. Anakin in Canon would probably get crushed by Legends Anakin as he has better feats and accolades

Maul has replicated all of these feats, while being vastly pre-prime even before TPM. He has deflected and dodged omni-directional blaster fire, created multiple afterimages, was faster than Qui-Gon, who deflected omni-directional blaster fire from 30+ shooters casually while protecting a non-combatant and so on. Lots of the scans and quotes I've already posted above, and have no interest in doing that again. And you forget that suited Vader's wasn't actually much faster, if faster at all than Knightfall/Mustafar Vader or Anakin.

Actually the majority of their duel was Qui-gon vs Maul solo from 01:15 to 03:07 Qui-gon and Maul were slugging it out with Maul being driven back while Qui-gon was on the offensive only giving in to stamina he even breached Maul's guard

He didn't breach Maul's guard, but maybe handily is an over-exaggeration. Without much difficulty would likely be a better word.

Maul had to hit him with his hilt before stabbing not really beating him with pure skill

No that is a technique that Maul practices and actually tried to use against old Ben in Rebels, though Kenobi anticipated the attack beforehand. Not at all a cheap shot.

Not really sure though it was stated in Legends Maul used a technique that basically used Obi-wan's rage against him basically a form of Vaapad

Source? And since when did Maul know Vaapad?

Still shouldn't be much more than a 15% at most for Obi-wan as not only was he not that force sensitive he also wouldn't be able to channel his rage properly as a sith would

So? He isn't even that deprived of a natural connection to the force lmao. I doubt he would only get a 15% boost, because he legitimately contended with and pressed a tier 8 while most likely being a mid-low tier 7 fighter at best after becoming enraged.

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KillBilly

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#37  Edited By KillBilly

@juiceboks: Seems like a mismatch given the speed disparity. Legends Sidious scales far above characters that can chase down missiles and outrun the vacuum of space even disregarding precognition.

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@red12789 said:

@anakinvader99:

Like which? Vader has fought armies, moved faster than thought, and moved faster than ROTS Obi-wan while nowhere near his prime? Ahsoka it depends. Anakin in Canon would probably get crushed by Legends Anakin as he has better feats and accolades

Maul has replicated all of these feats, while being vastly pre-prime even before TPM. He has deflected and dodged omni-directional blaster fire, created multiple afterimages, was faster than Qui-Gon, who deflected omni-directional blaster fire from 30+ shooters casually while protecting a non-combatant and so on. Lots of the scans and quotes I've already posted above, and have no interest in doing that again. And you forget that suited Vader's wasn't actually much faster, if faster at all than Knightfall/Mustafar Vader or Anakin.

So Vader had decades to grow in most of those instances that I mentioned. Vader has also created multiple after images,Anakin had speed rivaling Qui-gon since he was a padawan. I saw them still not much better if at all than Vader. All 3 of those Anakins are faster than Maul though?

Actually the majority of their duel was Qui-gon vs Maul solo from 01:15 to 03:07 Qui-gon and Maul were slugging it out with Maul being driven back while Qui-gon was on the offensive only giving in to stamina he even breached Maul's guard

He didn't breach Maul's guard, but maybe handily is an over-exaggeration. Without much difficulty would likely be a better word.

Um excuse me?

No Caption Provided

After the two were separated from the walls it says this

"Beyond, the Sith Lord worked at binding up his wounds, a series of burns and slashes marked by charred tears in his dark clothing"

The Phantom Menace novelization page 304

So Maul got his guard breached by Qui-gon multiple times

Maul had to hit him with his hilt before stabbing not really beating him with pure skill

No that is a technique that Maul practices and actually tried to use against old Ben in Rebels, though Kenobi anticipated the attack beforehand. Not at all a cheap shot.

We are using Legends Maul though at least I thought we were also pretty sure cheap shots can be replicated

Not really sure though it was stated in Legends Maul used a technique that basically used Obi-wan's rage against him basically a form of Vaapad

Source? And since when did Maul know Vaapad?

Not Vaapad more like a version of force drain can't remember the source but it was in comic vine

Still shouldn't be much more than a 15% at most for Obi-wan as not only was he not that force sensitive he also wouldn't be able to channel his rage properly as a sith would

So? He isn't even that deprived of a natural connection to the force lmao. I doubt he would only get a 15% boost, because he legitimately contended with and pressed a tier 8 while most likely being a mid-low tier 7 fighter at best after becoming enraged.

True but at the same time he wouldn't be stronger than he was in ROTS or ATOC since he mentioned that Maul wasn't as bad when they fought even when he was calm

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Red12789

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#39  Edited By Red12789

@anakinvader99:

So Vader had decades to grow in most of those instances that I mentioned. Vader has also created multiple after images,Anakin had speed rivaling Qui-gon since he was a padawan. I saw them still not much better if at all than Vader. All 3 of those Anakins are faster than Maul though?

Did you even read my post? Suited Vader wasn't as fast as Anakin, so any feats involving Anakin are irrelevant when talking about ANH Vader. Vader doesn't have any speed feats that put him at faster than even a massively pre-prime pre TPM Maul. Yes, Anakin does, but not post-suit Vader.

Um excuse me?

Umm...Maul had just been kicking Kenobi a moment prior, so you may as well say he was caught off guard.

"Beyond, the Sith Lord worked at binding up his wounds, a series of burns and slashes marked by charred tears in his dark clothing"

The Phantom Menace novelization page 304

So Maul got his guard breached by Qui-gon multiple times

Completely contradicted by what we see on screen. These apparent "injuries" were probably acquired in his exchange with both Qui-Gon and Kenobi at the same time as well

We are using Legends Maul though at least I thought we were also pretty sure cheap shots can be replicated

Again, when did he cheap shot Qui-Gon?

Not Vaapad more like a version of force drain can't remember the source but it was in comic vine

Where is it??

True but at the same time he wouldn't be stronger than he was in ROTS or ATOC since he mentioned that Maul wasn't as bad when they fought even when he was calm

I don't even get what you're trying to say lol. Again, his boost must have been quite considerable if it allowed a low-tier 7 to press and even land good hits on a tier 8 duelist.

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Void_Reborn

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Either Sith still stomps/blitzes.

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Richard96

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^^^^^^^^^

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Lord_God

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This requires a lock

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AnakinVader99

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@red12789 said:

@anakinvader99:

So Vader had decades to grow in most of those instances that I mentioned. Vader has also created multiple after images,Anakin had speed rivaling Qui-gon since he was a padawan. I saw them still not much better if at all than Vader. All 3 of those Anakins are faster than Maul though?

Did you even read my post? Suited Vader wasn't as fast as Anakin, so any feats involving Anakin are irrelevant when talking about ANH Vader. Vader doesn't have any speed feats that put him at faster than even a massively pre-prime pre TPM Maul. Yes, Anakin does, but not post-suit Vader.

Yes he does being faster than ROTS Obi-wan while nowhere near his prime>>>>>>>>any feat of speed Maul has

"He is a former associate, yes, but --"

It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.

The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart.

-- Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon

The person who said this was a former padawan in the Jedi Order who fought with Obi-wan and Anakin when the latter was a padawan so, therefore, his feats of speed that rival Qui-gon, can be scaled with Vader since Vader was faster than that Anakin.

Um excuse me?

Umm...Maul had just been kicking Kenobi a moment prior, so you may as well say he was caught off guard.

He wasn't he was right infront of Qui-gon how do you get taken off guard like that?

Look at this video at 01:08 you see him turn to Qui-gon immeadeatly after kicking him there is no way he was caught off guard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqdESArkqU&t=116s

"Beyond, the Sith Lord worked at binding up his wounds, a series of burns and slashes marked by charred tears in his dark clothing"

The Phantom Menace novelization page 304

So Maul got his guard breached by Qui-gon multiple times

Completely contradicted by what we see on screen. These apparent "injuries" were probably acquired in his exchange with both Qui-Gon and Kenobi at the same time as well

No they weren't Obi-wan is mentioned to be unable to tag the Sith Lord and if we want to go what we see on screen the scene were Obi-wan was using the dark side isn't canon because the filmmakers mention how in that scene Obi-wan's actor was just preparing himself to fight Maul nothing more

We are using Legends Maul though at least I thought we were also pretty sure cheap shots can be replicated

Again, when did he cheap shot Qui-Gon?

If I slam my blade's hilt into your face while you were blocking my attack then stab you is that a skill feat or a cheap shot?

I would consider it a cheap shot because I don't ever do that and I caught you off guard

Not Vaapad more like a version of force drain can't remember the source but it was in comic vine

Where is it??

Can't find it I'll try to look for it soon

True but at the same time he wouldn't be stronger than he was in ROTS or ATOC since he mentioned that Maul wasn't as bad when they fought even when he was calm

I don't even get what you're trying to say lol. Again, his boost must have been quite considerable if it allowed a low-tier 7 to press and even land good hits on a tier 8 duelist.

Well Maul was most likely tired and it's not the only time tiers have difficulty with one below them it's large but it's not guaranteed

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Red12789

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@anakinvader99;

Yes he does being faster than ROTS Obi-wan while nowhere near his prime>>>>>>>>any feat of speed Maul has

How many times do I have to tell you that pre-suit Vader is considerably faster than suited Vader? Since we're talking about suited Vader here, that feat doesn't apply.

He wasn't he was right infront of Qui-gon how do you get taken off guard like that?

Look at this video at 01:08 you see him turn to Qui-gon immeadeatly after kicking him there is no way he was caught off guard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqdESArkqU&t=116s

And when he was turning, he got hit by Qui-Gon

No they weren't Obi-wan is mentioned to be unable to tag the Sith Lord

When was that stated? And Qui-Gon may have tagged Maul while Maul was fighting both him and Obi-Wan at the same time?

If I slam my blade's hilt into your face while you were blocking my attack then stab you is that a skill feat or a cheap shot?

It's a skill feat because Qui-Gon should've been able to block the strike if he was skilled enough, and that's an attack Maul practices . It's not like he killed Qui-Gon when the latter was distracted; that would be a cheap shot.

I would consider it a cheap shot because I don't ever do that and I caught you off guard

So that means Grievous cheap shots every Jedi he fights, because his style catches them off guard? Wtf.

Well Maul was most likely tired and it's not the only time tiers have difficulty with one below them it's large but it's not guaranteed

He had a short rest, and Maul has extremely good stamina/durability. I could argue that Kenobi was tired as well. By the way, the disparity between combatants in the same tier can be quite large, nevermind the disparity between combatants in different tiers

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AnakinVader99

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@red12789 said:

@anakinvader99;

Yes he does being faster than ROTS Obi-wan while nowhere near his prime>>>>>>>>any feat of speed Maul has

How many times do I have to tell you that pre-suit Vader is considerably faster than suited Vader? Since we're talking about suited Vader here, that feat doesn't apply.

The feat I showed just now is post suit Vader he was in his suit when he moved faster than Obi-wan seriously man

He wasn't he was right infront of Qui-gon how do you get taken off guard like that?

Look at this video at 01:08 you see him turn to Qui-gon immeadeatly after kicking him there is no way he was caught off guard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqdESArkqU&t=116s

And when he was turning, he got hit by Qui-Gon

No Caption Provided

He was facing Qui-gon after he kicked Obi-wan both are not that close to where Qui-gon could have cheap shot him both were facing one another

No they weren't Obi-wan is mentioned to be unable to tag the Sith Lord

When was that stated? And Qui-Gon may have tagged Maul while Maul was fighting both him and Obi-Wan at the same time?

Can't remember probably in the novelization but considering how Obi-wan was basically being thrown around even with his rage amp and Qui-gon helping him and Maul not taking him seriously while took Qui-gon as a huge threat and in the novel it *is* mentioned they were pretty mediocre as a duo on the offensive but one on one Qui-gon drove Maul to the defensive for a while. Get the difference? It just means they aren't that good together than they are apart

If I slam my blade's hilt into your face while you were blocking my attack then stab you is that a skill feat or a cheap shot?

It's a skill feat because Qui-Gon should've been able to block the strike if he was skilled enough, and that's an attack Maul practices . It's not like he killed Qui-Gon when the latter was distracted; that would be a cheap shot.

In canon but outside of canon Maul has never done that and he has done cheap shots before. Also, how is he blocking that? Maul slammed the left part of the hilt to his face while he had his arms in the air then gutted him plus exhaustion played a big part so it wasn't like he lost due to skill

I would consider it a cheap shot because I don't ever do that and I caught you off guard

So that means Grievous cheap shots every Jedi he fights, because his style catches them off guard? Wtf.

Well considering he grabbed a gun and shot a knight while the knight was using his blade to defend himself, opened his arms mid-blade lock, grabbed Adi Gallia by the neck then gutted her and a few other instances all around. Yeah Grievous either uses his strength, exhaust his opponent or cheap shots them 99% of the time even in his wins against Durge and Asajj can be replicated if the Jedi has enough strength and speed. I see Grievous is a threat but mostly because cybernetics helps him not just pure skill.

Well Maul was most likely tired and it's not the only time tiers have difficulty with one below them it's large but it's not guaranteed

He had a short rest, and Maul has extremely good stamina/durability. I could argue that Kenobi was tired as well. By the way, the disparity between combatants in the same tier can be quite large, nevermind the disparity between combatants in different tiers

He has good stamina but that doesn't mean he can do slugging matches and not be affected. Obi-wan did less than Maul did that is a fact. Well tell that to Yoda and Dooku or Anakin and Obi-wan it is large but not stomp range

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@anakinvader99:

The feat I showed just now is post suit Vader he was in his suit when he moved faster than Obi-wan seriously man

You never showed me any post suit Vader feats. The only feat you showed was Mustafa Vader being faster than ROTS Kenobi.

He was facing Qui-gon after he kicked Obi-wan both are not that close to where Qui-gon could have cheap shot him both were facing one another

Fair enough. Doesn't change the fact that Maul>Qui-Gon though.

Can't remember probably in the novelization but considering how Obi-wan was basically being thrown around even with his rage amp and Qui-gon helping him and Maul not taking him seriously while took Qui-gon as a huge threat and in the novel it *is* mentioned they were pretty mediocre as a duo on the offensive but one on one Qui-gon drove Maul to the defensive for a while. Get the difference? It just means they aren't that good together than they are apart

Kenobi wasn't being thrown around with the rage amp, he tagged Maul's saber and actually pressed him. Also, your baseless assumption that Kenobi and Qui-Gon were worse together than they were apart makes no sense considering how close the 2 were, and how good their chemistry was. Also, none of that disproves the fact that Maul may have been tagged by Qui-Gon while he was also distracted with fighting Kenobi at the same time.

In canon but outside of canon Maul has never done that and he has done cheap shots before. Also, how is he blocking that? Maul slammed the left part of the hilt to his face while he had his arms in the air then gutted him plus exhaustion played a big part so it wasn't like he lost due to skill

Like when? Of course he's done cheap shots, but not to Qui-Gon in TPM. Also, what do you mean how is he blocking that? Maul tried the same thing to Kenobi in Rebels, but unlike Qui-Gon, Kenobi cut Maul's saber in half and killed the latter.

Well considering he grabbed a gun and shot a knight while the knight was using his blade to defend himself, opened his arms mid-blade lock, grabbed Adi Gallia by the neck then gutted her and a few other instances all around. Yeah Grievous either uses his strength, exhaust his opponent or cheap shots them 99% of the time even in his wins against Durge and Asajj can be replicated if the Jedi has enough strength and speed. I see Grievous is a threat but mostly because cybernetics helps him not just pure skill.

Yes he does cheapshot sometimes, but most of the time, he doesn't. That's the thing. Just because someone has an unorthodox style that can catch people off guard, it doesn't mean their cheapshotting them. Being unorthodox is an advantage that that particular combatant carries into every fight. You're forgetting that many Jedi can amp their strength and speed to extreme levels, have precog, and usually use the force attacks on Grievous, so it's extremely impressive for him to contend with high-level Jedi as a non-force sensitive.

He has good stamina but that doesn't mean he can do slugging matches and not be affected. Obi-wan did less than Maul did that is a fact. Well tell that to Yoda and Dooku or Anakin and Obi-wan it is large but not stomp range

So now, a four minutes fight with a rest in the middle is a slugging match? Kenobi did do less, but at this point, Maul has better stamina than him by a considerable margin. Anakin was hindered during his fight with Obi-Wan, Kenobi was a high tier 8, and Obi-Wan's Soresu helped him contend. Yoda most likely wasn't going all out during AOTC against Dooku, and Dooku would've been a pretty high tier 8 too.

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@red12789 said:

@anakinvader99:

The feat I showed just now is post suit Vader he was in his suit when he moved faster than Obi-wan seriously man

You never showed me any post suit Vader feats. The only feat you showed was Mustafa Vader being faster than ROTS Kenobi.

"He is a former associate, yes, but --"

It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.

The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart.

-- Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon

Uuuuuuuh that's Vader in his suit

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Last_of_the_Jedi:_Secret_Weapon

He was facing Qui-gon after he kicked Obi-wan both are not that close to where Qui-gon could have cheap shot him both were facing one another

Fair enough. Doesn't change the fact that Maul>Qui-Gon though.

Overall yes but not by much

Can't remember probably in the novelization but considering how Obi-wan was basically being thrown around even with his rage amp and Qui-gon helping him and Maul not taking him seriously while took Qui-gon as a huge threat and in the novel it *is* mentioned they were pretty mediocre as a duo on the offensive but one on one Qui-gon drove Maul to the defensive for a while. Get the difference? It just means they aren't that good together than they are apart

Kenobi wasn't being thrown around with the rage amp, he tagged Maul's saber and actually pressed him. Also, your baseless assumption that Kenobi and Qui-Gon were worse together than they were apart makes no sense considering how close the 2 were, and how good their chemistry was. Also, none of that disproves the fact that Maul may have been tagged by Qui-Gon while he was also distracted with fighting Kenobi at the same time.

Maul overpowered Obi-wan then sent him flying with a push. Well explain how Qui-gon and Obi-wan were unable to be very good offensively and when they were attacking in the novel it was described inadequate but later on Maul was being pressed by Qui-gon alone and went defensive most of their duel? Um, it does for example Qui-gon and Obi-wan admitted they failed to be successful offensively together.

"Together they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary were woefully inadequate"

The Phantom Menace novelization page 287-288

So how did Maul get a series of burns if they failed to do anything?

In canon but outside of canon Maul has never done that and he has done cheap shots before. Also, how is he blocking that? Maul slammed the left part of the hilt to his face while he had his arms in the air then gutted him plus exhaustion played a big part so it wasn't like he lost due to skill

Like when? Of course he's done cheap shots, but not to Qui-Gon in TPM. Also, what do you mean how is he blocking that? Maul tried the same thing to Kenobi in Rebels, but unlike Qui-Gon, Kenobi cut Maul's saber in half and killed the latter.

How about when he stabbed a Jedi in the back twice? One was against a jedi master when he first built the saber staff and another was when the Jedi was protecting another Jedi. Because he was expecting it not to mention no stamina issues

Well considering he grabbed a gun and shot a knight while the knight was using his blade to defend himself, opened his arms mid-blade lock, grabbed Adi Gallia by the neck then gutted her and a few other instances all around. Yeah Grievous either uses his strength, exhaust his opponent or cheap shots them 99% of the time even in his wins against Durge and Asajj can be replicated if the Jedi has enough strength and speed. I see Grievous is a threat but mostly because cybernetics helps him not just pure skill.

Yes he does cheapshot sometimes, but most of the time, he doesn't. That's the thing. Just because someone has an unorthodox style that can catch people off guard, it doesn't mean their cheapshotting them. Being unorthodox is an advantage that that particular combatant carries into every fight. You're forgetting that many Jedi can amp their strength and speed to extreme levels, have precog, and usually use the force attacks on Grievous, so it's extremely impressive for him to contend with high-level Jedi as a non-force sensitive.

Really name a legit victory that is pure skill alone that makes him top tier? It is if you randomly grab a gun and shoot someone or all of a sudden grab them by the neck and stab them or use extra arms suddenly. Mostly due to cybernetics which amp to a ridiculous degree, if not that then they were exhausted and if not that then he cheap shotted without any of that he has not beaten them due to skill but pure brute force, weakened them or cheap shotted them pretty sure if he fought someone like Vader or Yoda than he gets slaughtered in a duel because he loses most of those advantages

He has good stamina but that doesn't mean he can do slugging matches and not be affected. Obi-wan did less than Maul did that is a fact. Well tell that to Yoda and Dooku or Anakin and Obi-wan it is large but not stomp range

So now, a four minutes fight with a rest in the middle is a slugging match? Kenobi did do less, but at this point, Maul has better stamina than him by a considerable margin. Anakin was hindered during his fight with Obi-Wan, Kenobi was a high tier 8, and Obi-Wan's Soresu helped him contend. Yoda most likely wasn't going all out during AOTC against Dooku, and Dooku would've been a pretty high tier 8 too.

It is if you are fighting like hell and part of that duel is offscreen. Not really to sure on that but ok. He would still be around a 9 at this point. Still, it's mentioned to be a large gap between levels and Yoda in the script tried to cut Dooku's head off

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Either of the star wars duo stomp

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@anakinvader99:

"He is a former associate, yes, but --"

It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.

The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart.

-- Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon

Uuuuuuuh that's Vader in his suit

You didn't show me that source before, and I don't see how it puts suited Vader above Maul in speed.

Darth Maul's blade is too fast to see for Dark Jedi Vosa, she sees multiple attacks, despite the fact Darth Maul is wounded from his right arm.

''Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.

He swung out at her, the Dark Side streaming so powerfully from him now that itseemed to be pouring forth in great, explosive torrents. His blade was moving almost too fast to see.''

--Maul-Lockdown

Even Darth Plagueis thinks highly of his speed.

''The Zabrak’s fists and legs were as lethal as his lightsaber, andhis speed was astounding.''

--Darth Plagueis

He has nearly bested Sidious while pre-prime with his speed, though he was enraged and Sidious was considerably pre-prime

"Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death-but Sidious only laughed. By giving in to his rage and hatred to kill his own master-by wanting to kill his own master-Maul had in fact passed the final test. Now he was a Sith Lord-Darth Maul, Dark Lord of the Sith.''

--The Darkside Sourcebook

Maul has also generated multiple afterimages of his body while spinning mid-air and blocking multiple blaster bolts at once. The most afterimages of his body that Vader has generated is one.

How about when he stabbed a Jedi in the back twice? One was against a jedi master when he first built the saber staff and another was when the Jedi was protecting another Jedi.

Irrelevant since he hasn't done that to Qui-Gon.

Because he was expecting it not to mention no stamina issues

So? Stamina is a factor in lightsaber duels and if Qui-Gon was skilled enough, he could've slashed Maul's saberstaff in half or dodged the strike.

Really name a legit victory that is pure skill alone that makes him top tier?

In Canon, he is probably a mid tier, but is able to contend with high tier Jedi and has bested TCW Kenobi several times, bested Adi Gallia and so on in pure saber combat. In Legends, he is a high tier yes, and stalemated Windu while being ludicrously hindered.

Mostly due to cybernetics which amp to a ridiculous degree, if not that then they were exhausted and if not that then he cheap shotted without any of that he has not beaten them due to skill but pure brute force,

So? Force Augmentation can also amp a person's physical abilities and stamina to a ridiculous degree. And beating people through brute force isn't an excuse lol. Lots of the time, people in SW are simply overwhelmed by the sheer strength and speed of the opponent, not their actual skill. And force users have precog, force abilities and so on, abilities that Grievous lacks, so once again, being able to contend with council members is impressive.

if he fought someone like Vader or Yoda than he gets slaughtered in a duel because he loses most of those advantages

So? Irrelevant.

It is if you are fighting like hell and part of that duel is offscreen.

Lmao, even people with considerably worse stamina and are much older like Yoda was able to fight against a top-tier opponent (Sidious) for nearly as long Anakin fought Obi-Wan and wasn't significantly hampered by lack of stamina. So no, someone who has as much stamina as Maul wouldn't be affected much especially if he got a break in between. And before the fight up to the point where Qui-Gon was killed was less than 2 and a half minutes excluding the break.

He would still be around a 9 at this point.

Even if he was a nine he would be an extremely low nine, while Obi-Wan would be a high tier 8, and his Soresu helped him contend like I've already said.

Still, it's mentioned to be a large gap between levels and Yoda in the script tried to cut Dooku's head off

I know there is a large gap between levels, which is exactly my point. Dooku knew Yoda's form well, and even after AOTC, Yoda was still unwilling to kill Dooku, as shown when he says that before their fight on Vjun.

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AnakinVader99

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@red12789 said:

@anakinvader99:

"He is a former associate, yes, but --"

It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.

The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart.

-- Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon

Uuuuuuuh that's Vader in his suit

You didn't show me that source before, and I don't see how it puts suited Vader above Maul in speed.

ROTS Obi-wan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Qui-gon and Obi-wan in TPM yet a massively pre prime Vader is greater than that

Darth Maul's blade is too fast to see for Dark Jedi Vosa, she sees multiple attacks, despite the fact Darth Maul is wounded from his right arm.

''Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.

He swung out at her, the Dark Side streaming so powerfully from him now that itseemed to be pouring forth in great, explosive torrents. His blade was moving almost too fast to see.''

--Maul-Lockdown

Komari was beaten by Jango Fett plus she is inferior to both Qui-gon and Ventress both of whom are inferior to Vader by a huge margin

Even Darth Plagueis thinks highly of his speed.

''The Zabrak’s fists and legs were as lethal as his lightsaber, andhis speed was astounding.''

--Darth Plagueis

Cool Vader still scales higher

He has nearly bested Sidious while pre-prime with his speed, though he was enraged and Sidious was considerably pre-prime

"Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death-but Sidious only laughed. By giving in to his rage and hatred to kill his own master-by wanting to kill his own master-Maul had in fact passed the final test. Now he was a Sith Lord-Darth Maul, Dark Lord of the Sith.''

--The Darkside Sourcebook

I feel that is either an outlier or from Maul's view because Palpatine at that point dwarfed every sith in history and was already declared on Yoda's level so unless you are suggesting somehow reached Yoda level I seriously don't think that is valid at allz

Maul has also generated multiple afterimages of his body while spinning mid-air and blocking multiple blaster bolts at once. The most afterimages of his body that Vader has generated is one.

Excuse me?

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No Caption Provided

Mind you this is pre prime Vader too

How about when he stabbed a Jedi in the back twice? One was against a jedi master when he first built the saber staff and another was when the Jedi was protecting another Jedi.

Irrelevant since he hasn't done that to Qui-Gon.

Because he was expecting it not to mention no stamina issues

So? Stamina is a factor in lightsaber duels and if Qui-Gon was skilled enough, he could've slashed Maul's saberstaff in half or dodged the strike.

Not if he was exhausted the dude was 60

Really name a legit victory that is pure skill alone that makes him top tier?

In Canon, he is probably a mid tier, but is able to contend with high tier Jedi and has bested TCW Kenobi several times, bested Adi Gallia and so on in pure saber combat. In Legends, he is a high tier yes, and stalemated Windu while being ludicrously hindered.

You mean bully them with his brute strength? Again we have been over this Mace wasn't exactly in perfect condition either as he had to divide his focus unlike Grievous plus again Windu scales higher by matching Dooku someone above Grievous by a wide margin not to mention he also lost to Obi-wan and most of his wins are circumstantial in his favor

Mostly due to cybernetics which amp to a ridiculous degree, if not that then they were exhausted and if not that then he cheap shotted without any of that he has not beaten them due to skill but pure brute force,

So? Force Augmentation can also amp a person's physical abilities and stamina to a ridiculous degree. And beating people through brute force isn't an excuse lol. Lots of the time, people in SW are simply overwhelmed by the sheer strength and speed of the opponent, not their actual skill. And force users have precog, force abilities and so on, abilities that Grievous lacks, so once again, being able to contend with council members is impressive.

Yes but at the same time most of that is through hard work meanwhile Grievous just receives the cybernetics. That still only makes him a high tier by just pure cybernetics not really skill. Yes, yet at the same time, it kinda tells you how skilled Grievous when almost all his wins have circumstances that wouldn't really happen if he wasn't a cyborg. He is on that level because of physical might not actual skill.

if he fought someone like Vader or Yoda than he gets slaughtered in a duel because he loses most of those advantages

So? Irrelevant.

I meant to put him cold against someone he is not physically superior to and he crumbles quickly

It is if you are fighting like hell and part of that duel is offscreen.

Lmao, even people with considerably worse stamina and are much older like Yoda was able to fight against a top-tier opponent (Sidious) for nearly as long Anakin fought Obi-Wan and wasn't significantly hampered by lack of stamina. So no, someone who has as much stamina as Maul wouldn't be affected much especially if he got a break in between. And before the fight up to the point where Qui-Gon was killed was less than 2 and a half minutes excluding the break.

Yoda has considerable more stamina than Maul has simply by having the bigger force reserves than Maul not to mention he lost. Small break. And the things offscreen.

He would still be around a 9 at this point.

Even if he was a nine he would be an extremely low nine, while Obi-Wan would be a high tier 8, and his Soresu helped him contend like I've already said.

Obi-wan should be mid-tier 8 though since Mace was the one bordering on 9 while Obi-wan was just 8

Still, it's mentioned to be a large gap between levels and Yoda in the script tried to cut Dooku's head off

I know there is a large gap between levels, which is exactly my point. Dooku knew Yoda's form well, and even after AOTC, Yoda was still unwilling to kill Dooku, as shown when he says that before their fight on Vjun.

That is irrelevant Yoda knew Dooku's style probably more than he ever did yet that is never mentioned anywhere else or implied while it was stated the two were close in skill