Darth Sidious And Count Dooku V Yoda And Darth Caedus

Fight to the death.

Standard mindsets.

Fight takes place in an empty field.

All ROTS incarnations for the PT guys.

Caedus as of LOTF: Invincible.

Who wins?

@anonymousjedi:@arkhamasylum3:@azronger:@dark-sith123: @darthant66:@darthbane77:@dawn_of_ages:@erkan12: @greysentinel365: @i_like_swords:@in-sidiousvader: @jacensolo77: @lordofthelight: @kilius: @necromancer76:@redheathen:@richard96:@slayedigneel:@vitisid:@xolthol:@breakofdawn:@grandmastergoat:@wollfmyth209

Team 1, good fight.

@guesswhosback_1: Nobody is soloing.

Depends how much Jacen would bring to the table against RotS Sheev.

Dooku's a weak link and would lose to Caedus eventually, while Sidious and Yoda stalemate.

@jacensolo77: I thought this was DE Sidious, lol.

Which version of Sheev ? Which one of Yoda ? Assuming prime Caedus and prime Dooku.

To my point in most of the case this will be Dooku vs Caedus and Sheev vs Yoda. Depending on which version this can go either way for the latter fight but Caedus win every time against Count.

@guesswhosback_1: That's why I edited the op haha, to avoid confusion.

The only scenario where I see Team 1 winning is through some form of manipulation or relience on intelligence on Sidious' part, and even that isn't really based on concrete feats but assumption. Palpatine is still the most powerful person here, but both Yoda and Caedus can give him way more trouble than Dooku would to the former 2. He is a weak link.

Sheev solos.

uhh probably Team 2... Yoda can hold out long enough for Caedus to handle the count and i don't think Sheev (in this incarnation) is strong enough to take both on...

could be wrong since the only person im really knowledgeable on is Jacen... everyone else im going by what ive seen from other arguments, but thats pretty much how i see it going down.

Caedus can help Yoda after taking down Dooku, so team 2.

Sidious would oneshot Caedus. Dooku would be more helpful comparatively because of Yoda's Jedi restraint and leniency.

Sidious wins again. Good fight.

Leaning towards team 1 to be honest. Dooku could probably take Caedus in sabers and can hold his own in the Force while Sidious very narrowly defeats Yoda. It could honestly go either way in my opinion. Caedus is stronger than the Count but he's outmatched in swordsmanship.

Too circumstantial of a fight

i agree that this fight might come down to circumstances.

Yoda solos.

Team 2 solidly but it's a good fight.

Yoda either has Sidious on the run for the entire match or completely stalemated in a Force battle and he has no chance of helping Dooku against Caedus. If he helps, he gets oneshotted

Meanwhile Caedus handles Dooku's face in a one-sided but decent fight.

Definitely Caedus and Yoda. Yoda vs palps is a stalemate and Caedus will destroy Dooki then help Yoda to kill Sheev.

Caedus would one shotted by palps.

Team 1

After a closer examination, I realized everyone is stealing my callout list. This being my old one before today's update

@keencraft: hmmmmmm. Perhaps you were not as loving of sheev as I thought. Consideringg Yoda and sheev to be equals is directly contradicted by the text in Revenge of the Sith. Revenge of the Sith Sidious was too much for Yoda, that's just a fact.

I feel like Sidious had a slight battlefield advantage over Yoda.

Caedus should crush Dooku, Caedus and Yoda are both challenges to Sidious alone much less together.

Team 2 high diff

The audacity; questioning my love for Sheev. There are certain people I hold equal or greater at respective versions, no matter what. I'm not going to overwank him.

TPM ~ Plagueis

Revenge of the Sith = Yoda

Prime < Luke

It was never contradicted, and everything says the opposite. I was ignoring it before, but I won't now that it has been demonstrated. And sources only say he was too strong to defeat, which contradicts nothing about their obvious stalemate.

Yoda beats Sidious, and Caedus beats Dooku. Team 2 win.

How so?

That doesn't necessarily mean that they can't be peers.

Team 1

@dawn_of_ages: Peers, yes. Equals no. But overrall I feel that sheev has the tools to overwhelm Yoda and he can oneshot caedus, combine that with dooku and the answer is clear.

@in-sidiousvader: If so why he fails to win clearly the fight in ROTS ?

@xolthol: it's made very clear in the Revenge of the Sith novelization, The Shadow is too much for the sage. He did win the fight it just took a little while, that same thing will happen at a faster rate with Dooku's Aid.caedus is a non-factor compared to Sidious

Even if I were to give you Dooku being a better swordsman (Which isn't the case but I'll be generous) he doesn't even begin to compare to Caedus's force power, he can't hold his own against Caedus at all in that regard.

Based on? I can sort of understand the Caedus Force power one, but what makes Jacen an equal or better duellist than Dooku?

@breakofdawn: His ability to tag a bloodlusted GM Luke (While pre prime) and defeat Katarn and his Jedi Strike Team (Injured and pre prime) should be enough to mark him as Dooku's better with a blade to at least a decent degree.

Now let me turn the tables on you and ask an off topic question to see how you perceive Dooku's force power. Do you think he's capable of telekinetically holding together a relatively small fighter for a decent period of time and stop it from being hurled or immobilised if ROTS Sidious is doing everything in his power to rip it to pieces, immobilise it, hurl it ect?

If Caedus tries to help Yoda this is what would happen to him:

I welcome anyone to try and argue otherwise.

@i_like_swords: Eh he's probably better than Anakin and not stupid enough to try and charge forward solo like a retard. With Yoda's backing he'll have a use though he gets crushed 1V1 yeah.

Even if he is better than Anakin (he probably isn't) he isn't better than Maul and Savage combined, or Vader and Luke combined, or Starkiller, all people Sidious can effortlessly ragdoll.

@i_like_swords: Even if he is better than Anakin (he probably isn't)

He is tbh.

he isn't better than Maul and Savage combined,

I disagree.

or Vader and Luke combined, or Starkiller, all people Sidious can effortlessly ragdoll.

Didn't realise this thread was talking about post ROTS characters, not that SK can be ragdolled by Sidious in any case.

In any case none of these guys bar Anakin who not only behaved like a retard but is also inferior to Caedus had the backing of Yoda so it's a false equivalency in any case.

@i_like_swords:

Starkiller, all people Sidious can effortlessly ragdoll.

Didn't realise Sidious could ragdoll the guy who majorly pressed him:

With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.

Credit: The Force Unleashed Novelization

@jacensolo77: Take the difference between [Vader and Luke] or [Starkiller] and [Caedus], and compare it to the difference between RotS and TFU Sidious. Caedus is still boned. It's nice that you disagree with me but I see no reason to care yet.

Yoda would not be able to prevent them from being oneshotted. One moment of respite (which Sidious can give himself easily) would be enough to quickly tool Caedus with TK and lightning. Think Dooku vs Savage and Ventress, just with far, far more extreme margins of difference.

@i_like_swords: Take the difference between [Vader and Luke] or [Starkiller] and [Caedus],

Caedus can probably take the duo of ROTJ Luke and Vader. As for SK Sidious and him are peers so the difference between him and Caedus is utterly irrelevant.

and compare it to the difference between RotS and TFU Sidious.

See above.

Caedus is still boned. It's nice that you disagree with me but I see no reason to care yet.

Give me the best you can for Maul and Savage and then I'll compare it to what Caedus can do, because the duo don't stack up at all.

Yoda would not be able to prevent them from being oneshotted. One moment of respite (which Sidious can give himself easily) would be enough to quickly tool Caedus with TK and lightning. Think Dooku vs Savage and Ventress, just with far, far more extreme margins of difference.

If Yoda (Sidious's near equal) and Caedus coordinate well enough there's no reason why Caedus gets instantaneously taken out of the fight. For example fodder Jedi specifically noted as "no match" for Caedus and got ragdolled by him repeatedly were able to stay in the fight because of Katarn's skill and ability to coordinate with them. And tbh the gap between random fodder Jedi and Caedus is probably wider than the gap between Sidious and Caedus. Caedus being far below ROTS Sidious doesn't prevent him from being a factor in this fight, that's why team fighting is so effective, the fact that Sidious can dismiss him easily is irrelevant, put him together with somebody who's a threat to Sidious and there's literally no reason for him to get thrown aside.

Pretty misleading when you post quotes outside of their proper context, huh? No matter.

"Good," hissed the Emperor, his claw-like hands upraised between them like a weak old man fending off an attacker. Stumbling, he fell to his knees. "Yes." He looked up at the apprentice. "You were destined to destroy me. Do it! Give in to your hatred!"

The apprentice stood over him for a moment with his lightsaber upraised. Its aqua light reflected in the eyes of the galaxy's Emperor as though it was the last thing he would ever see.

With a snap, the apprentice extinguished the blade and lowered his arm.

Kota limped up behind him and put a hand on his shoulder. "That's it, boy," he said with rough pride. "He's beaten. Let it go."

The sound of engines from above distracted them both. They looked up to see the Rogue Shadow descending over the shattered dome, lights flashing on and off to attract their attention. Its repulsors dispelled the last of the smoke and sent the apprentice's tattered cape whipping around his legs.

Juno, he thought. At last, everything is going to be all right.

"You fool!" snarled the Emperor, sending another wave of Sith lightning into Kota's back. "He will never be yours."

Kota fell with his arms upraised, and the apprentice knew that it wasn't over yet. The moment of truth had arrived.

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

"Go!" he hissed at Kota. "Hurry!"

The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever. Gathering up the Rebels, Kola ushered them toward the descending ship.

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.

A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.

Tossed like a leaf, the Rogue Shadow fled in haste, ramp snapping shut on its precious cargo.

The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all.

Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions. Stormtroopers converged on the site. Through the dense smoke, two figures were visible from the apprentice's rarefied perspective.

Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before. He reached out for support and found only his Master, scowling.

Sidious was toying with Galen in order to make him fall to the dark side. Then when Galen turned on him Sidious "howled" in orgasmic pain (he was still enjoying himself). Then, Galen entered a state of oneness wherein every cell in his body was bursting with Force energy, and suicide blasted Sidious point blank with so much power it made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child (so this is Galen probably thousands of times more powerful than usual given the disparity in combat prowess between children and adults), and even after that... Sidious is standing there, undamaged, with a scowl on his face.

Furthermore, we have this quote stating Galen was "ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious", meaning, Galen in Oneness was less powerful than Sidious.

As Juno rescued the Senators, Starkiller confronted the Sith Lords who had been manipulating him for years. Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.

--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

This is all corroborated by the game:

And the comic:

Caedus' best feats are straight up dogshit compared to pre-peak, baseline Galen Marek's... let alone peak Galen in a state of mega Oneness suicide blasting you at point blank.

So no, I don't see any reason to think Caedus would even remotely phase Sidious. Again, y'all are welcome to try and show otherwise.

@i_like_swords: Got to go get dinner. Will respond later.

@arkhamasylum3: I guess accepting reality is better done on a full stomach?

@jacensolo77:

Caedus can probably take the duo of ROTJ Luke and Vader. As for SK Sidious and him are peers so the difference between him and Caedus is utterly irrelevant.

I doubt it. Also you're wrong, see above.

See above.

Ditto.

Give me the best you can for Maul and Savage and then I'll compare it to what Caedus can do, because the duo don't stack up at all.

By what metric would you like to compare them? Lifting heavy things? Combat feats?

If Yoda (Sidious's near equal) and Caedus coordinate well enough there's no reason why Caedus gets instantaneously taken out of the fight.

It would be no different than if Maul or Dooku tried to help Yoda.

For example fodder Jedi specifically noted as "no match" for Caedus and got ragdolled by him repeatedly were able to stay in the fight because of Katarn's skill and ability to coordinate with them. And tbh the gap between random fodder Jedi and Caedus is probably wider than the gap between Sidious and Caedus.

It's nice that you think that but I don't see any reason to care. The reason Sidious can ragdoll Caedus easily is because it is easily provable. The reason Caedus could not ragdoll that strike team is because they were too collectively formidable for him. You're trying to compare an apple to an orange and it's not ending well.

Caedus being far below ROTS Sidious doesn't prevent him from being a factor in this fight,

Wishful thinking.

that's why team fighting is so effective, the fact that Sidious can dismiss him easily is irrelevant, put him together with somebody who's a threat to Sidious and there's literally no reason for him to get thrown aside.

Wishful thinking.

@i_like_swords: I doubt it. Also you're wrong, see above.

I'll let Arkham deal with that, I don't care enough to respond.

By what metric would you like to compare them? Lifting heavy things? Combat feats?

A mixture of combat feats and telekinesis accomplishments.

It would be no different than if Maul or Dooku tried to help Yoda.

Considering Caedus is better than either I doubt it.

It's nice that you think that but I don't see any reason to care.

Literally your response to everything in this thread lmfao. You don't seem to care about a great deal these days ILS.

The reason Sidious can ragdoll Caedus easily is because it is easily provable.

Just like how Caedus can ragdoll those fodder Jedi and did so repeatedly yet collectively they stayed in the fight due to seamless coordination.

The reason Caedus could not ragdoll that strike team is because they were too collectively formidable for him.

And why can't this team be "collectively to formidable for Sidious" given one of the members is on par with Sidious, the other (Even if he is fodder 1V1) should be able to turn the tide in their favour, when a bunch of fodder Jedi who got ragdolled repeatedly and were explicitly stated to not be a match for Caedus managed to tip the scales in their favour to the point where it was a "near" stalemate.

You're trying to compare an apple to an orange and it's not ending well.

This line from your own post pretty much sums up my reaction to this.

"It's nice that you think that but I don't see any reason to care."

ILS 2019

Just as an aside:

Caedus' best feats are straight up dogshit compared to pre-peak, baseline Galen Marek's...

I'd invite you to try and prove that.

@i_like_swords:

Pretty misleading when you post quotes outside of their proper context, huh? No matter.

Ironic.

Sidious was toying with Galen in order to make him fall to the dark side.

You do realise the quotes you posted prove otherwise right? This is a terribly misleading analysis. First off Galen takes the full force of lightning intended to kill Kota and walks right through it indicating he can take an all out Emperor's lightning. Granted you could make the case The Emperor scaled back his Lightning as soon as Marek took it but this is incredibly unlikely given the fact that:

A) Marek had already refused the Emperor and was now protecting Kota and the Rebels who Sidious fully intended to kill.

&

B) About two lines after that the text notes this:

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations.

Credit: The Force Unleashed Novelization.

Underlined the relevant part for you. This is the definition of desparation according to the Collins English Dictionary:

Desperation is the feeling that you have when you are in such a bad situation that you will try anything to change it.

Credit: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/desperation

Now in this situation "anything" would include killing Marek. How does it feel to be wrong about everything you just wrote?

Then when Galen turned on him Sidious "howled" in orgasmic pain (he was still enjoying himself).

Yeah Sidious was enjoying himself all right as he's literally the most evil person in the galaxy so of course he enjoys pain. But above we can clearly see Sidious was made desparate and we can also tell that by the quote you posted:

As Juno rescued the Senators, Starkiller confronted the Sith Lords who had been manipulating him for years. Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.

Credit: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The word ultimately in this context would mean "finally; in the end" which would imply that it was only after a hard fight that Marek lost and proved "no match" for Sidious's power.

Then, Galen entered a state of oneness wherein every cell in his body was bursting with Force energy, and suicide blasted Sidious point blank with so much power it made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child (so this is Galen probably thousands of times more powerful than usual given the disparity in combat prowess between children and adults), and even after that... Sidious is standing there, undamaged, with a scowl on his face.

This is complete and utter nonsense. If we take Sidious tanking Marek's oneness blast as a legit means to put him far above Marek then we'd also have to put Vader above Marek as Vader also took Marek's oneness blast but of course Vader being above Marek is factually wrong by lore:

"Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued."

Credit: The Force Unleashed Novelization

Btw this is how Vader lifted Marek's father:

For a debater of your calibre ILS this wasn't thought out. Regardless I've yet to address the actual feat:

Sidous did not tank the blasts total power. The blast was spread across the entire observation dome which means that Sidious would have taken the barest fraction of the blasts power. Not to mention the Rogue Shadow was engulfed by the blast yet it couldn't even bypass its shields indicating this was nowhere near the blasts full potency.

Furthermore, we have this quote stating Galen was "ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious", meaning, Galen in Oneness was less powerful than Sidious.

The quote doesn't say that at all. There is absolutely no indication it's referring to Galen in oneness and given it's in the context of their fight and oneness Marek didn't even fight Sidious it can't be referring to him. The quote is talking about how Marek can't beat Sidious something oneness Marek never tried to do. All he did was releaase a blast meant to save Juno from the stormtroopers who were trying to gun her down.

This is all corroborated by the game:

The DS ending is non canon. Regardless I'll bite. When Marek is blinded by rage it hinders him as he lacks focus. This is demostrated in TFU 1 when Marek attacks Vader in rage but calms himself prior to ragdolling Vader with the text noting "Anger was familair and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most clearly needed to see" and also noting "His (Vader's) power over the apprentice, however, was gone" when Marek removes himself from his state of rage.

In TFU 2 something similair happens. When Marek enters a state of rage and charges at Vader "With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief" he gets ragdolled because his "focus wavers". Btw prior to this Marek was doing just fine against Vader and actually had an opportunity to kill him.

And the comic:

Yeah choosing selective images makes for a really convincing case. You are aware Marek tags Sidious multiple times in that fight right?

Not to mention the novel is the one true canon path so the comic is N-Canon.

Caedus' best feats are straight up dogshit compared to pre-peak, baseline Galen Marek's... let alone peak Galen in a state of mega Oneness suicide blasting you at point blank.

So no, I don't see any reason to think Caedus would even remotely phase Sidious. Again, y'all are welcome to try and show otherwise.

You are aware I don't think Caedus does compare to Sidious right? I'm not even here to defend Caedus just Galen. I've not even read LOTF lmao.

I guess accepting reality is better done on a full stomach?

Yeah it is. Maybe you should go get something to eat?