Darth Plagueis vs. Vitiate

Darth Plagueis in his prime, as of James Luceno's novel.

Round 1 : All out fight, Vitiate as the late Emperor ( jedi knight storyline)

Round 2 : All out fight, Vitiate as Valkorion during the ''Fallen Empire''

Who wins and by what margins ?

@generalissim0:

R1: Plagueis, with a bit of difficulty.

R2: Plagueis, with moderate difficulty.

@wollfmyth209@shootingnova

Vitiate all rounds.

@kiadisandwich Pretty bold statement. Care to explain how and why ?

@generalissim0: Plagueis has greater combative ability, and Plagueis's mastery over life and death, as well as his greater power, prevents Valkorion from taking over Plagueis as a spirit. Besides, Plagueis is factually superior to Vitiate/Valkorion.

Plagueis.

Vitiate.

Plagueis with mid difficulty in the first round.

Plagueis with high difficulty in the second round.

Too skilled and experienced.

Vitiate in the condition he was when fighting the HoT gets trashed.

Prime Vitiate wins 10/10.

@generalissim0: Round 1 : All out fight, Vitiate as the late Emperor ( jedi knight storyline)

The one the Hero of Tython fought and beat? Plagueis stomps.

Round 2 : All out fight, Vitiate as Valkorion during the ''Fallen Empire''

You can make a case either way.

@wollfmyth209: Wasn't Vitiate seriously weakened during that encounter ? And, even in that weakened state hasn't he managed to collapse that enormous temple as nothing but a force ghost ?

I think that people are not giving Vitiate nearly enough credit that he deserves.

@generalissim0: Wasn't Vitiate seriously weakened during that encounter ?

Yes he was. Plagueis is fighting that weakened state, unless I'm reading too deeply into the OP.

And, even in that weakened state hasn't he managed to collapse that enormous temple as nothing but a force ghost ?

No, the Temple still stood. He collapsed the ceiling of the throne room, but even a teenage Darth Maul was capable of shattering a massive barrack capable of holding over a hundred bounty hunters in it with a Force Scream. A much more powerful Maul is still fodder to Plagueis tier characters.

Round 1: Plagueis cremates him.

Round 2: Plagueis in a great fight.

Round 1: Vitiate's best feat is collapsing a ceiling of a room. He has nothing on Plagueis power-wise and his combat skills are simply shit. I see no reason why Plagueis wouldn't one-shot this iteration of Vitiate.

Round 2: Valkorion's only defining attribute as a combatant - power - is useless against an opponent who is even more powerful. Valkorion has never influenced the Force on a galactic scale and draining a planet is not comparable. The Force did not send a godlike champion to defeat Valkorion, whereas it deemed it necessary to stop Plagueis. Plagueis can also heal himself infinitely and can thus easily tank all of Valkorion's attacks without even erecting a Force shield. And there is nothing indicating Valkorion ever improved as a combatant from his earlier fight, so him walking into lightsaber blades, being blitzed by Force Lightning blasts, and being killed by a lightsaber throw while distracted are all very real possibilities.

The fight may go on for a while or end rather quickly depending on how Plagueis approaches it. If decides to use all his tools and abilities to their maximum effect, then Valkorion's incompetency will grant him a quick death. If Plagueis decides to overpower Valkorion in a wizarding duel, however, then I could see Valkorion lasting a minute or two.

It's kinda telling how deep the bias is when you have to suggest a character at their absolute weakest just to plainly hand out a win to your fav at their absolute best. But I'm still going Vitiate 10/10. Because you don't deserve anything else.

Plagueis takes the first round, but I think the outcome of the second depends somewhat on the starting distance. The closer they are, the better Plagueis' chances are.

@reikai: Are you mentally challenged, or just blind ? Whatever the case may be, i feel sorry for you.

@richard96: I suppose it's worth considering that "most powerful" doesn't necessarily mean that they'll do well in a battle. The nature of Vitiate's power is very different to that of Plagueis and most of the other Banite Sith, and whilst the likes of Darth Zannah and Darth Tenebrous may not be able to perform a ritual like Vitiate's annihilation of Ziost, a planet-destroying process isn't very practical or meaningful in a one-on-one battle at close range.

Can't Vitiate just block Plagueis' saber strikes and proceed to win a Force battle? He did it to Arcann in the first chapter of KOTFE; what stops him from doing the same thing here?

@generalissim0: Nobody is saying that Plagueis himself blitzes Valkorion. I said that Plagueis's Force Lightning could blitz him. Valkorion has been unable to react to his own Force Lightning in the past when it was deflected at him and the result was him getting knocked on his ass. If he can't react, then that's the equivalent of a speedblitz, and as I said, a very real possibility, since I'm not seeing any evidence he's improved since then.

@slayne: Because Plagueis is far faster than Arcann. He is even faster than Valkorion himself is, and infinitely more skilled. Saying that he can block Plagueis' strikes because he blocked Arcann's is the equivelant of saying TPM Kenobi can block Darth Sidious' attacks because he blocked Darth Maul's.

@slayne: Arcann makes heavy, Form V swings when he's aiming for Valkorion, and whilst he shows time after time that he's a good duellist, he seems to remain at a similar pace. Plagueis, on the other hand, can fight blindingly fast. To block Plagueis' strikes would really test Valkorion's abilities to the utmost.

Plagueis both rounds.

So to all of you who say Plagueis wins:

Do you agree that the most powerful Sith Lords are (in this order):

1. Darth Sidious

2. Darth Plagueis

3. Vitiate

4. Revan/Darth Caedus

Etc.

@necromancer76: Take Revan out of the equation, and I agree (and I'd personally place Tenebrous as Valkorion's equal, but whatever).

@necromancer76:

1. Sidious

2. Plagueis

3. Tenebrous

4. Valkorion

5. Nihilus

@slayne: The fact that Hego's strength, but in the Force and physical, is vastly ahead of Arcann's. He also can't keep the bubble up forever.

1. Why are some of you ranking Tenebrous higher than Vitiate?

2. Why is Revan being severely underrated here? (Not you Richard)

@necromancer76: A number of Star Wars characters are rather hard to place in a grading like that, because a variety of factors need to be taken into account when assessing what qualifies as 'power'. It's not contradictory to believe that Vitiate is capable of far greater destruction than Plagueis but inferior to him in combat.

@richard96: The first time Revan met Vitiate, he was a young Jedi Knight who had a great deal of combat experience (mostly fighting Mandalorians) but had never run up against a Sith with the ability to dominate his mind. I don't believe that Plagueis would share this vulnerability. In fact, given Plagueis' skill with illusions and Revan's ability to influence Vitiate's mind during his imprisonment, Plagueis may be the superior telepath.

@discipulus: That makes a lot of sense. Seeing as Vitiate can drain planets and such while Plagueis can atomize people.

@necromancer76: Tenebrous is higher than Vitiate in my eyes because he doesn't need rituals to affect the climate on a planetary scale or the Force on a galactic scale.

@azronger: What places him above Revan and Caedus?

@necromancer76: The same things that put him above Vitiate.

@azronger: Could you give me some examples? I'm unfamiliar with most of his abilities.

@necromancer76: Going to bed now. Remind me tomorrow.

Either way if its SWTOR Vitiate. But if its the voice that HoT fought, Plageuis wipes the floor of him.

Valkorion wins 9-10/10, but Plageuis can contend.

Plagueis the Wise wins everytime.

Plagueis both rounds.

@azronger: Here's your friendly reminder. What feats and abilities place Tenebrous above Vitiate, Revan, Caedus, Krayt, Kun, etc?

I could make an extensive post explaining his powers, but I don't see a reason since it's been done elsewhere already. The best overview of Darth Tenebrous' abilities can be found here. I've also debated in favor of Tenebrous here.

I love seeing how grievously underestimated KotoR era figures still are, despite the vast majority of Banite-era Sith being positively featless and having nothing but exposition spoken about them. All this bile and nobody does proper research, never mind not even making the most obvious of comparisons even when they're staring you in the face.

Valkorion is not Sith. Therefore any classification or labeling therein is completely pointless, along with any argument of "such an such is most powerful Sith, therefore these guys are automatically superior by default" has absolutely no meaning when certain characters don't fall under those classifications or dogmas.

No one here has even remotely noticed the fact that Valkorion is a Proto-Abeloth. That detail has gone right over everyone's heads, despite being practically spelled out for you. You have two parents and two children of an extremely powerful family of Force Users. One parent is a destroyer and uses both the Light and Dark, one parent is Neutral who knows the force is more than Light or Dark, one child is Light (canon redeemed Arcann) and the other child is Dark (Vaylin). They're basically The Ones, or a close approximation given the influence of the media.

Speed arguments are utterly pointless since you can't measure by the limited in-game engine. Also calling Valkorion's consumption of Ziost impractical in battle is a foolish thing to say when I calc'd the speed of that occurrence at over Mach 100,000 once it was initiated. And anyone trying to grasp at Plag's midichlorian manipulation is just wasting their time since it's never been used combatively, and once the entire planet is dead, it's completely useless regardless.

Saying Vitiate couldn't react to his own lightning is also complete bollocks. It was a surprise move by Revan and btw, spoilers, Revan outright admits in the Maelstrom Prison that he and his comrades still didn't truly understand the depth of Vitiate's power. Flat out stating that Vitiate was, in fact, far more powerful than he was letting on.

Oh and anyone thinking Vitiate would succumb to someone elses mental abilities is absolutely freaking laughable. Hell, anyone who thinks he's done for good at the end of KotET are just fooling themselves. Vitiate and Valkorion are the same existence, but are a divided one. This was even hinted at when the PC meets Valkorion for the first time when he poses the question as to which one of you is mistaken about the other.

People do need to remember, Vitiate's essence ventured into Wild Space where the Eternal Empire was, luring Darth Marr and co into a trap. It was never really hinted that the Vitiate part of his being returned to Valkorion's body, since they've both been working separately towards the same goal for close to three centuries. There are far too many lose ends for Vitiate to be done and gone, since Revan's ghost is still a factor and if Vitiate was well and truly gone, Revan would've congratulated you. Yet Revan is still MIA, the Hand is still functioning in the shadows, and there's been no word of the Emperor's Children being completely free of influence.

So here we are. Going on 7yrs and we still can't really confirm if Vitiate is Dead-Dead or just dicking around somewhere.

@azronger: Ok, I read your links. I must admit, I low balled him for quite a while. He easily tops the likes of Vader and such, no question. However, I have come across an issue that occurred earlier in this thread. Tenebrous has a huge amount of power. Perhaps more than the characters I mentioned. But would he beat them in combat? Not necessarily. Let me explain:

The page you showed me says that he can do similar things like his predecessors did, like renting a hole in the Force and such. But how will this help him in a fight against a duelist like Caedus? Further, the page gives him the powers of Plagueis simply because he is his master. It's quite possible, but:

1. There is no specific evidence that he actually did have most of Plagueis' powers.

2. Look at Lumiya. She was Caedus' master. Yet, she is so very weak compared to him.

One feat I AM impressed with is the fact that he pretty much trained an acolyte to be exactly like Plagueis. Which means he knew everything about Plagueis. Almost all of his strengths, weaknesses, etc. Also, his speed feats are quite impressive.

The problem with Tenebrous is he is almost all hype. Due to Rule of Two and Plagueis. It's tough for me to believe most of this hype. And even if it was indeed true, most of these powers won't help in a 1v1 battle with little to no prep.

I have been opened to Tenebrous thanks to you, and I rank him a lot higher than I did before. I still don't see him being above Caedus and Revan. However, I DO think he is above Krayt and Kun, two very powerful Sith Lords.

@necromancer76

Ok, I read your links. I must admit, I low balled him for quite a while. He easily tops the likes of Vader and such, no question. However, I have come across an issue that occurred earlier in this thread. Tenebrous has a huge amount of power. Perhaps more than the characters I mentioned. But would he beat them in combat? Not necessarily. Let me explain:

The page you showed me says that he can do similar things like his predecessors did, like renting a hole in the Force and such. But how will this help him in a fight against a duelist like Caedus?

It's proves he has more raw power in the Force.

Further, the page gives him the powers of Plagueis simply because he is his master. It's quite possible, but:

1. There is no specific evidence that he actually did have most of Plagueis' powers.

Except, you know, teaching Plagueis everything the latter knew.

2. Look at Lumiya. She was Caedus' master. Yet, she is so very weak compared to him.

Terrible comparison, I'm afraid. Tenebrous isn't attrubted strength beyond that of early novel Plagueis for the sole reason that he was his Master, as should be rather obvious from the blog.

One feat I AM impressed with is the fact that he pretty much trained an acolyte to be exactly like Plagueis. Which means he knew everything about Plagueis. Almost all of his strengths, weaknesses, etc. Also, his speed feats are quite impressive.

You just said there's no evidence for Tenebrous knowing all of Plagueis' powers, yet you now state Tenebrous knew everything about Plagueis. Self-contradictions, much?

The problem with Tenebrous is he is almost all hype. Due to Rule of Two and Plagueis. It's tough for me to believe most of this hype.

Tenebrous has literally nothing when it comes to hype. Nothing. So I don't know where you pulled that from. Or you may have confused hype with powerscaling, which is a perfectly valid way of assessing a character's capabilities.

And even if it was indeed true, most of these powers won't help in a 1v1 battle with little to no prep.

Not sure what you mean here. Tenebrous is more powerful than people who have rent holes in the fabric of the Force and caused climate change on a planetary scale, more powerful than people who can run as fast as lightning bolts and curbstomp literal armies. What do you mean it won't help him in a battle? Lol.

I have been opened to Tenebrous thanks to you, and I rank him a lot higher than I did before. I still don't see him being above Caedus and Revan. However, I DO think he is above Krayt and Kun, two very powerful Sith Lords.

What have Caedus and Revan to their name, that elevate them above Tenebrous?