Darth Plagueis vs. Palpatine's Apprentices

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maxxcveiler

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team handidly

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holymolyhompity

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#102  Edited By holymolyhompity

@dark_globe: holy moly luke receive some type of aid during the fight with his father and also luke was stated to be his equal in combat without the help of his own rage the duel would have prolonged too much , dude first learn about other characters please

Luke's actualized power as of Return of the Jedi already rivals Darth Vader's:

Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

Beware the Sith

Darth Vader considers Luke Skywalker the strongest Jedi he's faced, which puts him ahead of capable fighters like An'ya Kuro, Ferus Olin, Jax Pavan and most impressively Old Ben Kenobi:

Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise.

Shadows of the Empire

Luke is extraordinarily gifted with the blade, and holds up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers:

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.

Insider #62: Fightsaber

Luke is once again noted as an equal of Darth Vader:

The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match, and, once again, the Sith Lord found his thoughts straying to an alliance between them against the Emperor.

Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and he was an equal match for his father.

The Official Star Wars Fact File #111

Luke by Return of the Jedi has advanced greatly, has unparalleled aptitude with a lightsaber, allowing him to stalemate Darth Vader and his learning curve was considered impossible to most:

By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star.

Insider #62: Fightsaber
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MyGod000

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@mygod000:

don´t twist my words i was talking about RoTJ sidious scaling all the time not RoTS .

so if vader is 80% of RoTJ sidious i can also say mace is 87% of RoTJ sidious and yoda is 90% .

i can also say yoda is 99% of RoTS sidious since they fought as near equals .

see why this statement is useless for comparing characters ?

it is open to interpretation and personal preference .

LMFAO how is Mace 87% of ROTJ Sidious? show me that Quote buddy.

your statement means nothing you are just a fan just like me, word of God stated Vader is 80% of Sidious.

Vader didn't die instantly like Mace when he got destroyed by Force lighting by Sidious.

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KingofBlades1

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Guys this isn't hard. GL has said that Vader is comparable to Ben Kenobi. That makes it absolute fact that hes a bit below the likes of Dooku and well below KF Vader. And for everyone who uses the RotJ quote where Vader says hes stronger than he's ever been. If that is true than he is also stronger than mortis Anakin and would ragdoll abeloth. See why that the quote can't be taken seriously. Its far more likely that the quote is only referring to his power as suited Vader. Otherwise the quote makes no sense. For the record KF Vader>/=RotS Sidious>/=Yoda.

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RhoyneDelta

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Team, Vader and Dooku would be enough

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MyGod000

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Vader stomps Dooku hard.

My Empire, so perfect in vision, has at times proved infuriating in its implementation because of the sloth and stupidity of my underlings. Even Vader, my minor masterpiece, is often weak and indecisive. It is fortunate that I have an eternity to outlive his errors.

-- Book Of Sith: Secrets From The Dark Side

Vader is Sidious greatest a minor masterpiece. Which places him higher than Dooku regardless of what you think of Vader.

Sidious was passively able to Force choke Dooku, he has never done such things to Vader, even while Vader has openly disobeyed him.

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Dawn_of_Ages

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Yeah it's not like Sidious one-shotted Vader from across the galaxy or anything

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KingofBlades1

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@mygod000: the jedi vs sith-essential guide to the force contains an excerpt written by sidious that tells us he considers Vader a minor masterpiece because he's the greatest thing he's created in an analogous way to sith alchemy. Not because of his power. Sidious didn't have to twist dookus personality so he wouldn't fall under this category

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MyGod000

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TOP KEK

Irrelevant, Because unlike Dooku...Sidious Stated Vader was powerful enough that he could kill him. He never said anything like that for Dooku. on top of that Dooku was still force Choked like a Cheap whore by Sidious.

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KingofBlades1

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@mygod000: what part of GL statments and other G canon sources>>>>>>>>character opinions do you not understand. Sidious's opinion is overriden by GL saying Vader is comparable to Ben and other G canon sources that say Vader was far weaker than sidious

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MyGod000

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#111  Edited By MyGod000

That is Irrelevant because the GL statement is 40 years old, which he later retconned most of that.

It matters when most that the GL Quote is over 40 years old and Retcon Material.

Even Developers of force unleashed stated Vader is above Mace, and Way beyond Shaak Ti(who is a peer to Dooku) other Jedi Masters.

Witwer Also Said the same thing that Vader is way beyond Mace, considering GL wrote the Story for force unleashed It overrides your nonsense from back in 1980.

Vader>> Kar Vastor>Mace>Dooku=>Shaak Ti

In April 2005, after several months of planning, the LucasArts team received Lucas' encouragement to create a game centered on Darth Vader's secret apprentice in the largely unexplored period between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope, drawing the two trilogies together.[19][38][39][43] LucasArts spent six months developing the story.[8] Lucas spent hours discussing with the developers the relationship between Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine and provided feedback on what Vader would want out of and how he would motivate an apprentice.[44][45] Lucas Licensing reviewed many game details to ensure they fit into canon.[46]

Everything Fits GL Canon, Vader is well beyond mace and Dooku by a large amount stated by the Developers of the games and GL agree.

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KingofBlades1

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@mygod000: The 80% quote literally retcons nothing. Ive explained multiple times why it retcons nothing. Also the age of the quote is irrelevant if it hasn't been retconned. And authors can give subjective statements. They aren't like GL who can say anything and it becomes canon. They don't have that authority. So that author opinion if true means nothing. So 0/2 on your points

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KingofBlades1

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Yes Lucas made sure the publicised product ie the game was fitting canon. However he has no control over personal subjective opinions authors have. Said subjective author opinions have no authority

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IdrisianGraecus

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#114  Edited By IdrisianGraecus

@mygod000: Meanwhile Vader was wounded by fodder like Bol Chatak.

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G_Race

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#115  Edited By G_Race

@kingofblades1: You are wrong. I dont know how else to put it. Knight Fall Vader is not as powerful as Yoda & or Palpatine. In fact Knight fall vader is commonly placed higher than he should be by fans all the time, what did he really do?

It has been established many times that Suit Vader is superior to Skywalker KF or not.

its close, but Vader has grown and refined in every meaningful way.

Accept it bro.

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KingofBlades1

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@g_race: KF Vader is more powerful than IH Anakin who decimated Dooku. This alone is far more impressive than anything suit vader has done. He also easily stomped cin drallig, someone called one of the best swordsman in the order. Suit Vader on the other hand has trouble with old ben kenobi and maul.

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IdrisianGraecus

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@g_race: @kingofblades1: I disagree with both of you. KF Vader is a superior to his suited version, but he isn’t as powerful as Yoda, or Sidious, or even Windu. KF Vader didn’t stomp Cin Drallig, he either won with the aid of a bunch of clones, or with a cheap shot, depending on which source you interpret as canon.

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deactivated-5d3b5ee4922c4

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Plagueis wins. Plagueis is the 4th or 5th most powerful Sith, only behind the likes of Sidious, Darish Vol, Sarasu Taalon, and is an equal or inferior to Valkorion. Vader is around 6 or 7 & Maul and Dooku are around 11 and 12.

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KingofBlades1

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#119  Edited By KingofBlades1

@idrisiangraecus: Anakin is a confirmed tier 9 combatant once he embraces the dark side making him a pier of yoda and sidious. Theres also the 12 statements calling Anakin either the most powerful jedi ever and other various accolades as found in this link used in a revan V Vader debate. https://www.writeurl.com/publish/1ork9l9bze8uxggly290

When you put this with IH Anakin's decimation of Dooku knowing KF Vader >IH Anakin it seems pretty clear Anakin is at least Sidious's peer

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KingofBlades1

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And in regards to cin drallig...

"Stone-faced, Obi-Wan watched younglings run into the room, fleeing a storm of blasterfire; he watched Cin Drallig and a pair of teenage Padawans-was that Whie, the boy Yoda had brought to Vjun?-backing into the scene, blades whirling, cutting down the advancing clone troopers with deflected bolts. He watched a lightsaber blade flick into the shot, cutting down first one Padawan, then the other. He watched the brisk stride of a caped figure who hacked through Drallig's shoulder, then stood aside as the old Troll fell dying to let the rest of the clones blast the children to shreds."

(Source: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith novelization)

Vader took him out in almost no time at all. It was described as a passing detail like how he one shotted the padawans. If thats not stomping idk what is

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G_Race

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@kingofblades1: So to be clear, you will accept some sources in relation to power while not others?? You are all over the place.. Changes nothing, comic vine has discussed and widely accepted that suit Vader after ESB is his highest showing including his time as Skywalker.

@idrisiangraecus. If you think KF Vader is stronger than later in life showings of Vader(ESB onward) then you are Wrong too.. Its commonly accepted & a simple search on comic vine will provide all the necessary evidence to support that statement.

I am not saying this to be combative & I too wish it were not the case, however, it is.

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CuckedCurry

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They die in Plagueis’ presence

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Kilius

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Plagueis killed a groggy, startled, aging, unathletic, non-Force sensitive Ars Veruna with Midiclorian Manipulation. He can absolutely replicate this with three extremely powerful Sith Lords at the same time.

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G_Race

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@kilius: are you being serious, because I dont get it?!

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KingofBlades1

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@g_race: i accept scaling and feats when they're not overriden by something like G canon statement. Im not all over the place. I simply take the highest authority on any situation or character. In suited Vaders case the highest authority says Vader is comparable to Obi Wan and is much weaker than the emperor. This overrides any feat or lesser sources suggesting the opposite. In pre suit Vaders case there are no G canon sources overriding his feats or accolades so we can accept them.

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MyGod000

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It doesn't matter what you think or what you accept the fact is GL wrote the Story, checked to make sure it follows and fit in Canon.

So Vader being far above Kar Vastor is canon.

Kar Vastor is stated to be above Mace.

the 80% retcon the Gl statement from 1980, because According to your logic, Ben It much weaker than his ROTS Counterpart.

By extension can't fit in the canon, Sidious himself says Vader can kill him and is threatened by his powers.

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IdrisianGraecus

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@g_race: Well that really depends, I mean, in legends, KF Vader > All other incarnations, but in canon, Rebels Vader is stated to be his prime.

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IdrisianGraecus

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@kingofblades1: When was that ever part of the novelization? I vaguely remember that from the movie, novel, and other debates on CV, that we never saw how long the duel takes. You can either trust a guidebook, that says that Vader had the help of clones, or the ROTS video game, which has Vader winning with a cheap shot. Gillard isn’t actually a canon source. His logic puts Vader over. Valkorion, Revan, the Outlander, Windu, Vaykin, Plagueis, and a plethora of characters that should be able to beat Vader.

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KingofBlades1

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@mygod000: please provide proof of the mace<vader quote as I've never seen it used in debates.

And in regards to the 80% quote. Since there's no reference point the 20% gap could either be enormous or it could be miniscule. That is the nature of percentages. Meaning ben kenobi could only be like 81% of Sidious and still be vastly more powerful than Vader. Stop using this quote as by now with me explaining it this many times, its beginning to look like you aren't understanding the basic mathematical concept of percentages.

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MyGod000

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#130  Edited By MyGod000

All you have been doing is doing low ball showing on Vader if we going that routine than Depa can Beat Mace.

Nick Rostu knew darkness.

He had, after all, stood with the Jedi Master Mace Windu against Kar Vastor in the steaming jungles of Haruun Kal. Kar Vastor, leader of the Balawai resistance; Kar Vastor, with his arm-mounted vibroblade weapons and his almost supernatural strength. Kar Vastor, stronger in the Force than any of the Korunnai, stronger than any in the galaxy, perhaps, save for the Jedi. Kar Vastor, so submerged in the dark side that, even though Nick had been only a couple of meters away from him during that final battle, eventhough he could see the man as clearly as he could see Mace, or Iolu, the guard who'd sliced him from sternum to navel-still, looking back on it now, he realized he couldn't visualize the guerrilla leader's face. It was as if the Balawai commander had been shrouded in darkness, somehow, as if the dark side of the Force radiated a strange anti-light. Kar Vastor had been the essence, the personification, of primal power, jungle savagery, and bloodlust distilled into flesh. Nick had never seen anyone or anything to match him.

Until now.

Until he stood, unarmed, before Darth Vader.

As if being armed would make a difference, he thought. He could be tricked out with wrist rockets, a hold-out shooter, a pair of DL-44s, and a disruptor rifle, and he might just as well be carrying a pointed stick. Vastor had been animal ferocity and menace, barely contained. He'd thrummed with the power of the dark side. His arms, legs, torso, and shoulders had been layered with striated muscle; he looked like he could have lifted a pregnant grasser over his head. One-handed.

Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor.

It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent.

Waiting.

Mace stood motionless except for the heaving of his chest. He knew already he could not match Vastor for raw power. With each breath, he stripped away another layer of restraint and inhibition. Another layer of serenity. He had to move his inner peace out of the way to let in the joy.

Vader>>Kar Vastor>Mace.

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KingofBlades1

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@idrisiangraecus: so how do you reconcile the quotes that are in the link i put.

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KingofBlades1

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#132  Edited By KingofBlades1

@mygod000: interesting never seen the quote before. However its all for not. Your argument hinges on the 80% argument retconning my GL quotes so that they have no value. However i have explained to you why the 80% quote retcons nothing because of the way percentages work. Meaning my GL quotes still override even your mace quote.

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Kilius

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@g_race said:

@kilius: are you being serious, because I dont get it?!

No, I'm trolling. I've seen a lot of people argue in matches Plagueis's Midiclorian Manipulation as an advantage against even Sidious level combatants, even though it's only been tested on Ars Veruna.

OT the apprentices should win. Plagueis puts up a fight but I think even two should be enough to beat him.

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KingofBlades1

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When mace fought vastor he was on a DS nexus while being exhausted. And he still performed well. Also Mace Windu grew more powerful after the shatterpoint novel. RotS mace>Shatterpoint mace

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MyGod000

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#135  Edited By MyGod000

still weaker than Vader by a lot.

Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself.

that was stated around the Time of ANH above Vader. I can say Kar Vastor was more powerful than he was last since Shatterpoint.

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KingofBlades1

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#136  Edited By KingofBlades1

@mygod000: cool quote bro. GL quotes still retcon it. Also does the quote occur after ANH or before. Because if its after it doesn't contradict me.

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G_Race

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@kilius: I agree. OT the 3 get it done (very possibly 2).

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MyGod000

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#138  Edited By MyGod000

The way I see it...Vader under Sidious is the Greatest Sith Lord alive. GL story contradicts what happened in 1980, it just a fact. Vader would destroy Mace.

Vader would destroy Dooku.

Vader by himself will Give Plagueis the fight of his life, he would shit himself under the power that he holds. adding Dooku make this a stomp.

Vader's Secret Apprentice was more powerful than most of the Jedi in the Clone Wars. They still said Vader was way beyond his apprentice.

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KingofBlades1

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@mygod000: Im sorry but how you feel doesn't matter with canon rules. GL statements>other g canon sources>c canon sources(even if c canon sources contradict g canon). So far your only arguments have been c canon sources and one G canon source. The g canon source you provided has been proven to not contradict or retcon my g canon sources. This means all you have left are c canon sources. These c canon sources no matter how they contradict my GL statements are still overriden per canon policy. So Your argument is done. You cannot argue against GL statements and other G canon sources using C canon sources.

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G_Race

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@kingofblades1: Im with you. Sorry @mygod000, this is one of those times where you have to accept logic, or be regarded as a fan boy who only values his own subjective opinion. This kind of stuff is the entire purpose of Comic Vine battles, otherwise we are left with people just shouting opinion as fact.

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thebluedragon20

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#141  Edited By thebluedragon20

Not to insult or belittle anyone, but I feel you guys are focusing too much on statements, and character opinions and less on actual feats. Looking at a characters accomplishments and the context behind those accomplishments can give you a much better outlook on their abilities than taking an authors word at face value.

An author can say obi wan defeated maul because he was stronger than him, but if you looking at the phantom menace fight, you can see that obi wan was outmatched and only won because he took maul off guard

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MyGod000

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#142  Edited By MyGod000

@g_race said:

@kingofblades1: Im with you. Sorry @mygod000, this is one of those times where you have to accept logic, or be regarded as a fan boy who only values his own subjective opinion. This kind of stuff is the entire purpose of Comic Vine battles, otherwise we are left with people just shouting opinion as fact.

The statement Gl did in the past has been Retcon parts of it has been Retcon by GL. He said Vader is weaker than Ben Kenobi, and to support his claim that Vader was weaker he through in that Ben was weaker than ROTS Obi-wan.

My point here is GL Retcon that with his own Story which is canon and overrides his previous comments from 1980. the people who worked with GL developing force unleash stated Vader is much stronger than Kar Vastor. Last I checked he is way more powerful than Ben Kenobi. saying that Vader>= Ben doesn't work when Kar Vastor>>ROTS Obi-wan.

He Said Obi-wan Could be 81% well prove that the Burden of Proof is on him to prove that statement with a scan. that is reacting Statement, nothing suggests he is that high even before he fought Anakin on Mustafar.

Like I proved ESB Vader>ANH Vader. After that ROTJ Vader proclaimed himself as stronger and greater than he has ever been. Luke while using a Dark Side Amp could only equal him.

Like I said Agree to disagree.

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KingofBlades1

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@mygod000: is that vastor quote you provided from the tfu novel? Because that seen isnt found in the game. And the in regards to the 80% quote...you are really focusing on the wrong thing. No Where did i say that Ben is actually 81% of Sidious. I said because the way percentages work that its possible. The actual point i was making was the we cannot quantify the 20% gap because there is no reference point. So you cannot use it to say Vader is close to the emperor because that is impossible to claim without a reference point.

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KingofBlades1

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@mygod000: Oh for the love of... I just copy and pasted your vastor quote into google. Its from a book called Jedi Twilight written by Michael Reeves. This novel was not personally overseen by Lucas and Reeves was not a writer for the TFU, novel or video game. Meaning This quote has nothing to do with Lucas or TFU. You either knew this and lied to bolster your argument or you got finessed by the person who gave you the quote. Meaning the vastor quote is another random c canon source. Take your L my quotes stay unretconned.

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KingofBlades1

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@thebluedragon20: even if we go by feats Vader has had trouble with maul and old ben. And in the rules of SW debating GL statements overrule everything feats ir otherwise. He gets that authority because he's the creator of the mythos.

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Redshift_Bacon

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Vader could win some rounds solo, like 5-6/10. Add Dooku and Maul and I'm pretty sure team takes it with High difficulty, 7.5/10.

Think, Jedi Masters vs RoTS Sidious.

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IdrisianGraecus

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#147  Edited By IdrisianGraecus

@kingofblades1: Probably a junior novelisation, because I cannot remember those in the Stover novelization.

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thebluedragon20

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#148  Edited By thebluedragon20

@kingofblades1 Try using that against a credible debater like amthp or supernova.

GL contradicts himself in almost every quote. plus he sold the franchise, his word does not mean anything anymore. On top of that, if what he says contradicts what actually happens on screen, its false.

OT Apprentices soundly

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KingofBlades1

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@thebluedragon20: we're discussing legends characters. In legends GL still has his authority

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thebluedragon20

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@kingofblades1 Even so, Lucas also had nothing to do with EU novels, feats>author statements or sourcebooks