Darth Plagueis vs. Palpatine's Apprentices

@mygod000:

luke only used the dark side after vader pissed him of by telling him he would get his sister .
that is why luke got the upper hand in otherwise close duel between them .
anakin did the same by using the dark side against dooku .
anakin however was much more trained and experienced than luke ,
luke was not on anakins level yet .

RoTS dooku and RoTJ vader are very close to each other , neither of them could ragdoll the other
which means the fight would result in very close and prolonged duel which could go either way .

whereas RoTS anakin using the dark side could simply use his stamina and physical superiority to
generate the momentum , put pressure on his opponent and overpowers either of them in a duel .
it is stated while dooku was getting more and more exhausted in their duel skywalker was getting stronger .

Plagueis wins, but it'd be a hell of a fight.

No, Luke was using the Darkside the whole time. Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader specifies that even during the brief skirmish from the film, Luke was still amped by his rage.

it said and I quote “Again the young Jedi allowed his anger to bleed away,” which is stated right after Luke disengages and jumps to the catwalk.

If Luke was Able to let his "Anger bleed away" then there must have been Anger in the first place.

He was Amped by Rage the entire fight With Vader, and Still only managed to fight even with him.

While Dooku was instantly stomped by Anakin, there is no getting around that GL Stated Luke can become what Anakin couldn't because of his injuries.

ROTJ Sidious>>Vader>>>>>>Dooku

@mygod000:

"luke can become the best" statement is irrelevant in this debate .
we all know he become the most powerful jedi of all time .
but by the time of RoTJ he was still not on RoTS anakin level and he still managed to beat vader regardless
(why and how is open to interpretation but he did it) .

RoTJ luke would not beat mace , yoda or RoTS anakin no matter how rage amped he would be since mace actually feeds on his opponents rage , yoda is yoda and anakin could get the same amp :
all of them are better duelists as well .
that puts RoTJ vader on dookus level and below the likes of yoda whether you like it or not .
you seem to be dancing around the facts presented before you but there is no escape .

Team, narrowly but soundly 8/10. The environment the OP has presented favors Palpatine's apprentices. Both Dooku, and Vader regularly abuse the force's TK abilities as an offensive weapon while actively in a duel scenario. Given the terrain, there is no shortage of material to be hurled at Plagueis keeping him off balance and under duress. Which brings us to Maul & his ferocity. Undoubtedly Maul will rush Plagueis with light saber drawn & a skill set to press the old master. When you factor in that Vader wont be one shot in this scenario, the versatility and cunning the Count offers, and the handful of hate that Maul is, the answer becomes clear.

Plagueis just cant hold off all 3 for a majority, Dooku or Maul goes down or is heavily injured. The survivors pick off Plaguey in which ever way he leaves himself exposed.

Team destroys. Dooku alone would put up a fight against him, adding in Vader and Maul just seals the deal.

The ideas that Plagueis is a terrible duelist, that Vader would stomp Dooku, and that TPM Sidious surpassed Plagueis prior to the power boost he experiences during the latter's death are all hilarious for the record.

Team wins mid diff

@dawn_of_ages: hey dude good to see you’re still around

Ive been debating SW sence you first applied Cocoa Butter to your nutsack. Plaggy is the big shitty and implied that pre-TPM Dooku may have been a threat to him

This thread is completely out of freaking control.

ROTJ Vader > KF Vader? ROTJ Vader "ragdolling" Yoda level force users? What a complete joke

Agreed

I also find it hillarious that people are conveniently forgetting that both Sheev and Plaggy were extremely apprehensive of the idea of revealing themselves to Dooku, and Plaggy entertained the thought of using Dooku as insurance if he lost Sheev

You are ignoring the silver lining. Luke Being Amp by rage boosted his powers beyond normal. you are using Double standards is a bad look for you; you said Anakin Destroyed Dooku with Rage and Got a big boost, but Anakin Son can't do the same with a Rage Boost can't stomp Vader as Anakin Did to Dooku...but come on now do better.

VAder=> Rage Amp Luke>>>>>>>>>>Base Luke.

the Anakin that beat Dooku wouldn't beat Mace either so what your point? he saw him fight Sidious and couldn't even follow their movements. Luke Training was compressed for him, and Yoda who knows where he failed with his last padawans, he did better with Luke. No Vader is way above Dooku who Sidious Even stated Vader was better than Dooku and his best apprentice.

Sidious Saying Luke was powerful is enough that Sidious would stomp Yoda.

So automatically puts him above Dooku. Like I said ROTJ Sidious saw Vader as a threat to his current powers. while Dook was only a threat to AOTC Sidious.

ROTJ Sidious>>>ROTS Sidious>>>AOTC Sidious>>Dooku

@mygod000:

you have so many things wrong in your posts it is not even worth wasting time anymore .

anakin seeing them only as a blur was because they were already in the middle of battle and
mace was massively amped like never before , mace would not be able to get to this level against anakin so whether or not he would actually beat KF vader in a duel is up for debate .

luke was only training for couple of years , anakin was training from childhood and was one of the best duelist of all time , luke as of RoTJ was not at this level yet .
mace , yoda , RoTS anakin and even RoTS obi wan were all better duelists and
would not be emotionaly hindered or caught of guard by his amp in the fight against him ,
any of them would handily beat luke .

vader is not way above dooku because once again that would mean he is RoTS sidious level which he isn´t .
so RoTJ sidious >> RoTS sidious >= yoda >= mace >= KF vader > RoTJ vader >= dooku > RoTJ luke .

Vader would beat Mace. Mace Needs an Amp to Catch Sidious, but you won't admit Luke Amp was a massive boost.

agree to Disagree.

Vader>Anakin

Yeah I'm not as active as I used to be or as much I'd want to.

Good to see you're still around as well.

Yeah, it's an accolade for Dooku that's generally overlooked.

Another that is usually overlooked imo is this (Insider 113):

Eventually, Dooku would've been Yoda's equal in the Force. Given that Dooku was already 70 years old by the time of TPM, its only logical, given how aged he is, that he would've attained most of his potential by then, the potential that he could be "on par" with Yoda.

@mygod000:

vader would not beat mace . since vader gets possibly even more angry and
enraged during his fights than even sidious ,
mace would likely exploit this via vaapad and shatter points .

RoTS sidious was already the most powerful sith ever
so mace matching him in speed and lightsabers (amped of course) is very impressive feat
which RoTJ vader could not hope to replicate .

RoTJ vader is not a level 9 combatant overall
after his injuries he could never hope to achieve this tier again and challenge sidious :
he is a high tier 8 : same as dooku , jedi RoTS anakin , not amped mace or RoTS obi wan .
KF vader is already a tier 9 fighter (although he is not mentaly ready for it yet) :
so he is in the same tier as yoda , plagueis , amped mace and sidious .
which means he is at least half tier higher than RoTJ vader in raw power .

Do you not understand the words Agree to Disagree?

All you are doing is regurgitating the same argument that I already proved wrong when Vader himself stated he was more powerful.

Vader knowledge of his powers>>>>>>>>you opinion

@dark_globe: the dark lord of the sith was stated to have 80% of sidious that would be sufficent to consider it extremely powerful in the force also the fact that vader was considered to be more powerful than rots anakin i think you need to read the vader respect thread :)

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-respect-thread-part-1-1835848/

@mygod000: vaders opinions and POVs <<< facts that actually happened on screen and canon statements

suit vader had a hard time beating darth maul in one of the comics
and was only able to do so by impaling himself and maul with his lightsaber .
RoTS vader would destroy maul with no injuries mid diff .
i rest my case .

agree to disagree .

dude the maul comic was not canon at all vader was stated to be more powerful than rots anakin by the time of ANH

@zorronotelorobes:

new account my friend ?
that 80% statement is vague AF to be honest .
20% could still mean a vaaaaaast power disparity which it likely does
since vader could never hope to challange palpatine .

i could say i´m 80% of s1mple in csgo and it still doesn´t mean anything
since i would get absolutely destroyed .

KF vader remains the best and the most powerful incarnation of him for me .

@dark_globe: yes why i just putting the facts that vader>> anakin there are too many to put in here even in canon.

vague af lol the statements by george lucas are basically god word in the franchise and even if you get 20% percent less that the most powerful sith in history makes you incredibly talented in the ways of the force many people forget that point kf vader is the mid iteration of vader imao mustafar one is the strongest before pre suit.

@zorronotelorobes:

many people forget i could also say yoda is 90% , KF vader is 85% , mace is 87% of the emperor etc. as well .
there is a lot of room for imagination within those remaining 20%
and basicaly anyone could adjust this scale to their preference and
their personal ranking of SW characters

so that is why this statement is in fact vague AF and doesn´t actually mean much if you think about it .

it would be different if lucas actually said vader become so powerful he could actually challange the emperor or become more powerful than yoda or mace or something like that .

@dark_globe: first yoda was comparable to rots sidious,after that palpatine by facts and statements grew more powerful overtime,mace windu is overated af the novelization of the rots clearly says that palpatine threw the fight,kf like i said is surpassed by mustafar anakin who is surpassed by suit vader https://www.writeurl.com/text/3y5pbam4xopdasbhlrqc/4a173ju1e7uxhf77ocmmhttps://www.writeurl.com/text/fuvp35136e5d5ba5t85a/zhcmdpz7wted7llbivjh

You don't even know the meaning of the word "canon" because you being up non-canon arguments to downplay.

--A New Hope

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

--The Life And Legend Of Obi-Wan Kenobi

“This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”

all said Vader was stronger than Anakin.

Yes, indeed Agree to disagree.

@mygod000: finally someone who agrees :)

@zorronotelorobes:
emerged mentally stronger yes .
no doubt he was smarter , have greater knowledge about the force and became more elegant fighter .
but all of that was only the compensations and adjustments he had to make due to his suit and injuries .

it doesn´t mean he was better overall .
he lacks stamina , mobility , agility , speed and raw power and potential of his former self .
once again KF vader would give RoTJ vader "dooku treatment" in their duel .

@zorronotelorobes: yes you agree with yourself... impressive ...

created a new account just so you can agree with yourself
because no one else would :P ... so sad ...

@dark_globe: i agree with the guy who give statements and sources about noting vader is superiority not me

@dark_globe:wow insults lol dude that clarify you could not give a good argument about anakin surpassing vader

@zorronotelorobes: sure whatever you say ... create one or two more accounts so you can agree even more .

i don't need more accounts

That guy is a Downplayer...as you saw he thinks Maul can take down Vader because of a non-canon Showing.

I've Posted the Passage of Vader claiming he got more powerful then he has ever been before, and That guy response to that was "Oh, Vader doesn't know what he is talking he is drunk" Clearly he has no other arguments to debunk that statement.

not only that, He can't prove anything he said. Mace Windu 87% of Sidious where, when?

he Ignores the fact that even if he did prove that Mace Was 87% of ROTS Sidious it proves nothing because ROTJ Sidious>>ROTS Sidious. At the end of the Day, he would still be comparable to an inferior Sidious while Vader is 80% of a superior Sidious.

My Empire, so perfect in vision, has at times proved infuriating in its implementation because of the sloth and stupidity of my underlings. Even Vader, my minor masterpiece, is often weak and indecisive. It is fortunate that I have an eternity to outlive his errors.

-- Book Of Sith: Secrets From The Dark Side

Clad in flowing black robes, protective armor, and a grotesque, combined breath mask and helmet, the imposing figure of Darth Vader was feared throughout the Empire. Utterly ruthless, his Sith powers made him virtually invincible.

-- Star Wars Fact File 3

Vader would Stomp the dog piss out of Dooku who would get utterly destroyed. The Fact that Sidious saw Vader as a threat years after ROTS when Sidious was getting into the secrets of Immortality by his Master speak Volumes of Vader and His powers.

@mygod000:

don´t twist my words i was talking about RoTJ sidious scaling all the time not RoTS .

so if vader is 80% of RoTJ sidious i can also say mace is 87% of RoTJ sidious and yoda is 90% .
i can also say yoda is 99% of RoTS sidious since they fought as near equals .
see why this statement is useless for comparing characters ?

it is open to interpretation and personal preference .

Darth Sidious views Vader as a threat:

He collected some of these Force adepts and took them to his citadel on Byss, where he initiated them in the powers of the dark side. All of those he taught, human or alien, were only taught enough to fulfilll Palpatine's wishes. He didn't want any of them rising up against him. Bad enough that Vader was as powerful as he was, though Palpatine was certain of Vader’s loyalty to the dark side.

-- The Essential Guide To Characters

Luke claims that Vader could have stomped him if he had seriously tried to kill him:

She pointed a finger at Luke, and before Luke even recognized her evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire and screams of pain died away, became a distant roaring. Gethzerion pointed at him again, twitched her finger, and his eyes lost focus. He felt the hammer blow to his left temple, dropped to his side and rolled over to his back, gasping. Luke stared up at the sky, watching streams of rocks hurtling above him—some propelled by the Force, others hurled by rancors.

Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion’s spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.

So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me.

--The Courtship of Princess Leia

Vader eventually surpassed his ROTS iteration:

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith

Palpatine muses that Vader's limitations were more phsychological than physical, and also that he would have to do everything he can to reawaken Vader's power, even at his own peril, once again suggesting Vader could potentially become a risk to his mastery:

Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader’s legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing. His dark side training was just beginning. But Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will. Self-restraint was praised by the Jedi only because they didn’t know the power of the dark side. Vader’s real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself, to confront all his choices and his disappointments.

Powered by treachery, the Sith Master-apprentice relationship was always a dangerous game. Trust was encouraged even while being sabotaged; loyalty was demanded even while betrayal was prized; suspicion was nourished even while honesty was praised.

In some sense, it was survival of the fittest.

Fundamental to Vader’s growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.

Had Vader killed Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he might have attempted to kill Sidious, as well. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn’t made an attempt. Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need everything in his power to shake Vader out of that despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him.

Even at Sidious’s own peril…

--Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader

18 BBY Vader is considered by Nick Rostu to be far more powerful in the Force than Kar Vastor. Given that this would put him above the likes of 22 BBY Mace Windu, and thus, above Jedi such as Shaak Ti, Yarael Poof, Fay, or Yaddle, this is an impressive accolade. Noting that Nick seemed to be aware of Kar's power even before the fight against Mace, so his comparison shouldn't be inaccurate:

Nick Rostu knew darkness.

He had, after all, stood with the Jedi Master Mace Windu against Kar Vastor in the steaming jungles of Haruun Kal. Kar Vastor, leader of the Balawai resistance; Kar Vastor, with his arm-mounted vibroblade weapons and his almost supernatural strength. Kar Vastor, stronger in the Force than any of the Korunnai, stronger than any in the galaxy, perhaps, save for the Jedi. Kar Vastor, so submerged in the dark side that, even though Nick had been only a couple of meters away from him during that final battle, eventhough he could see the man as clearly as he could see Mace, or Iolu, the guard who'd sliced him from sternum to navel-still, looking back on it now, he realized he couldn't visualize the guerrilla leader's face. It was as if the Balawai commander had been shrouded in darkness, somehow, as if the dark side of the Force radiated a strange anti-light. Kar Vastor had been the essence, the personification, of primal power, jungle savagery, and bloodlust distilled into flesh. Nick had never seen anyone or anything to match him.

Until now.

Until he stood, unarmed, before Darth Vader.

As if being armed would make a difference, he thought. He could be tricked out with wrist rockets, a hold-out shooter, a pair of DL-44s, and a disruptor rifle, and he might just as well be carrying a pointed stick. Vastor had been animal ferocity and menace, barely contained. He'd thrummed with the power of the dark side. His arms, legs, torso, and shoulders had been layered with striated muscle; he looked like he could have lifted a pregnant grasser over his head. One-handed.

Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor.

It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent.

Waiting.

-- Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight

"There's a lor pelek who travels with Depa's band. He's... very powerful. More than powerful. If we can get Besh and Chalk to him before they start the twitches, he might be able to save them."

Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith lord in history, attributes Vader's ability to kill him in Rotj to his apprentice's power. While the feat itself is circumstantial, this is nonetheless rather impressive, especially when bearing in mind that Rotj Palpatine at this point is arguably far more powerful than his earlier iterations:

Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never. Granted, he was strong enough to kill me. But that only lasted for so long.

-- Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force

@dark_globe: is not useless at all the statement only talks about vader is power in the force after entering the suit

@zorronotelorobes:

and yet KF vader could be 85% of the RoTJ sidious .
those 80% proves nothing . you see my point ?

regardless i end this debate with you and your alt. account with 8-9 posts .
you are debating yourself at this point . enjoy .

knightfall vader is not that strong if any source dont say it then is not lol i could only argue that the most powerful time anakin came close to his potential was the mortis arc, dude... i have not other accounts you just rq from the debate becuase you could not prove any sources or statements that made anakin more powerful that his dark side counterpart.

Plagueis is not Sidious, even Sidious in my opinion would be at a disadvantage.

punks team wins

@dark_globe: Well if you believe that KF Vader is stronger than ROTJ Vader you are 100% wrong. Suit Vader by ROTJ handles KF Vader all day, its been debated here countless times. I was on the KF side, and had to reluctantly admit defeat.

Vader reaches his prime in ROTJ:

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

-- Return Of The Jedi

@g_race:

well it is all fiction in the end and no one would change my mind .
KF vader would beat RoTJ vader because he is well suited to beat this kind of an opponent
same as he beat dooku .
he just waits until his opponent is exhausted ,
creates the momentum with his relentless power blows and overpowers .

look at it this way: nobody would say RoTS obi wan is better than KF vader yet obi beats him
because his fighting style is tailor made for fighting vader (pre suit) like opponents
and because he knows his style inside out .

also regardless of statements the fact is we never actually saw suit vader to
beat an opponent of dookus caliber
(not counting old ben since he was out of prime and ultimately allowed vader to struck him down) .
he never faced anyone as powerful ,
the only one beggining to approach this level was RoTJ luke and vader lost that one so there you have it .

if suit vader is so powerful why is he not on quest to find and defeat yoda once and for all ?! .

@dark_globe: Ok so you just like being wrong, got it..

Vader was actively rooting out Jedi across the galaxy including Yoda.. Only Palpatine eventually stopped the pursuit, because their numbers were decimated & the... you know... governing countless systems & all.

Kenobi defeated Vader for a number of reasons fight style being one of them. Kenobi had sole intentions of doing just that defeating Vader. Vader was an absolute mess mentally, and above all else Vader got mad over confident..