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#1 Posted by SSJDarthPlagueis (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Plagueis

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Darth Sidious

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Another three battle. For all three battles it will be to the death, bloodlust on, no morals, 1v1 with no help what so ever, and at their best.

Battles

1. First battle would be Darth Plagueis at the time of his murder, and lets say he didn't get drunk and decided to fall asleep. And lets say Sidious grew a pair, man up, and face Plagueis at that time 1v1.

2. Second battle Darth Plagueis at his prime vs Darth Sidious around the events after the second Death Star was destroyed.

3. Last battle Darth Plagueis around the time of his murder vs Darth Sidious around the events after the Second Death Star was destroyed.

Battle takes place at a Burger King.

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#2 Posted by Erkan12 (8435 posts) - - Show Bio

All rounds for Plagueis.

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#3 Edited by juiceboks (24873 posts) - - Show Bio

Something tells me the OP isn't too fond of Sidious..

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#4 Edited by Pharoh_Atem (44282 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Sidious all rounds. Though round one is debatable.

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#5 Edited by SSJDarthPlagueis (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: No I like Sidious. Just hate the whole Sith apprentice cheaply kills master instead of facing them 1v1. Was hoping for a fight with Plagueis and Sidious in the novel, "Darth Plagueis the Wise." Then again Plagueis did the same thing with his master.

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#6 Posted by juiceboks (24873 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssjdarthplagueis Oh okay, I get you. That is kind of a trend within the Sith.

Anyway, Plagueis could take round 1. All other rounds go to Sidious though.

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#7 Posted by Intrepid37 (703 posts) - - Show Bio

Luceno (the author of the book) actually said that Plagueis would have beaten Sidious had they fought. That itself is enough enough for me to give him the win.

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#8 Posted by dondave (41753 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by SSJDarthPlagueis (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

@intrepid37: I knew that I was just disappointed of no saber duel, but I knew that wasn't gonna happen anyways since I've seen Episode 3 first then readied the book. Sidious told the story of Plagueis at one scene about his death.

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#10 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Luceno (the author of the book) actually said that Plagueis would have beaten Sidious had they fought. That itself is enough enough for me to give him the win.

I realize, but I believe he was referencing Palpatine of the book, in which case I agree. Palpatine at his prime? Nope.

If he was referencing Palpatine at his prime, then I'm sorry, as much as I love his works, his opinion is unfortunately not canon. Conversely, numerous sourcebooks have told us Palpatine was the most powerful Sith Lord, and his feats exceed Plagueis's.

Plagueis wins 1, RotJ Palpatine can take the others.

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#11 Posted by Intrepid37 (703 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: He was referencing the characters in his book, obviously. As was I.

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#12 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@intrepid37: Exactly. So that's round 1 at best. RotJ Palpatine certainly wins. I might make a more detailed analysis, but I lack the time today to do so. Maybe tomorrow.

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#13 Edited by SSJDarthPlagueis (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

@intrepid37 said:

Luceno (the author of the book) actually said that Plagueis would have beaten Sidious had they fought. That itself is enough enough for me to give him the win.

I realize, but I believe he was referencing Palpatine of the book, in which case I agree. Palpatine at his prime? Nope.

If he was referencing Palpatine at his prime, then I'm sorry, as much as I love his works, his opinion is unfortunately not canon. Conversely, numerous sourcebooks have told us Palpatine was the most powerful Sith Lord, and his feats exceed Plagueis's.

Plagueis wins 1, RotJ Palpatine can take the others.

Yes Palpatine had great feats, and other abilities that Plagueis didn't had one being Force Storm, but also Palpatine didn't have feats and other abilities that Plagueis had. A major one was midichlorian manipulation. Not that Sidious had some skill at it, but it wasn't as great as Plagueis. Minus the bringing back of the dead part Plagueis can use it to even kill people one time in the book(I haven't read the book in a while so things are a little fuzzy encase if I get something wrong) Plagueis use the midichlorians in a politician to kill him, but didn't kill him immediately. He purposely kept him alive(while suffering) to have a talk with him before finally killing him. Both Sidious and Plagueis could use the midichlorians to heal themselves as well.

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#14 Posted by Earthquake_2123 (475 posts) - - Show Bio

Based of said above Plagueis wins round 1 and Palp takes 2 and 3

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#15 Posted by Strikerx (20 posts) - - Show Bio

Plagueis stomps old Palpatine. Just because Luke get hit by lightning that doesn't mean Sidious was at his prime. Luke drop his lightsaber, and his tutaminis not like Yoda's level, so it is natural that.

Sidious's prime was RotS. Which he can win against Plagueis 2 or 3 of 10.

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#16 Posted by SSJDarthPlagueis (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

@strikerx: The last two battles was Sidious "around the time after" the second Death Star was destroyed.

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#17 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Palpatine's prime is DE, and Plagueis stomps none of the fights.

Yes Palpatine had great feats, and other abilities that Plagueis didn't had one being Force Storm, but also Palpatine didn't have feats and other abilities that Plagueis had. A major one was midichlorian manipulation. Not that Sidious had some skill at it, but it wasn't as great as Plagueis. Minus the bringing back of the dead part Plagueis can use it to even kill people one time in the book(I haven't read the book in a while so things are a little fuzzy encase if I get something wrong) Plagueis use the midichlorians in a politician to kill him, but didn't kill him immediately. He purposely kept him alive(while suffering) to have a talk with him before finally killing him. Both Sidious and Plagueis could use the midichlorians to heal themselves as well.

I know this already. I've read Darth Plagueis, and the person you were referencing was Ars Veruna. Plagueis killed him with Midi-chlorian manipulation, and "resurrected" Darth Venamis from the brink of death for experimental purposes. The fact remains that he never displayed Midi-chlorian manipulation in combat. Manipulating the midi-chlorians of helpless enemies is hardly an indication he could do the same here, in a combat scenario.

Now, for a slightly more detailed analysis.

The first round probably has the most discussion value. I would likely favor Plagueis, solely by virtue of Luceno's comments, but as far as feats go, they are just about even.

For speed, Plagueis has ran in a blur to a droid who could dodge blaster bolts and fought at such speeds that an onlooker viewing his contest with Venamis would have perceived it as lightning streaking through the forest understory. Palpatine has fought faster than Maul could perceive and killed two Dugs such that it appeared they were butchered by a phantom. As impressive as Plagueis's feats are in this regard, I consider Palpatine to be slightly faster, solely because of the fact that he has moved faster than Maul could perceive, and Maul could certainly perceive Plagueis's speed. Obviously Plagueis would be even faster on neutral ground, considering how his feat in which he fought fast enough to be perceived as lightning was accomplished within a forest understory, a rather unfriendly terrain when it comes to moving, but I still fail to see why Maul would not be able to perceive him. So Palpatine has a slightly speed advantage.

At this point, I don't recall many strength feats from Palpatine, nor do I recall notable dueling feats, but based of Palpatine's later mastery and the fact that he hadn't been within the boundaries a lightsaber duel for over a decade (the last time he dueled since TCW was before TPM, as I recall, and TPM was the same time Palpatine killed Plagueis), and for that I will more or less deem them as equals as far as dueling skill goes. For strength, Plagueis has smashed helmeted skulls and punched through armored torsos while severely injured (see my next paragraph for exactly how severe his injuries were). Before receiving any training in the Force, Palpatine has crushed the skulls of guards and torn their limbs off. This should be roughly even as well. However, like in his fight with Yoda, this minimal speed difference is likely not of great value, especially since Yoda and Plagueis have just about the same speed level. Plagueis would certainly be able to fight with Palpatine on even terms, so this speed disparity is more or less negligible, rather than gaping. So I don't consider this speed difference to actually be able to make a difference to the fight.

For durability and endurance, Plagueis has fought on while having lost a heart (and in danger of losing another), lost a trachea and had several blood vessels severed, and was unaffected by a Quara and Kaleesh's attempts to attack him with teeth and claw. Palpatine has crawled across a tundra while suffering rashes from Plagueis's lightsaber, fallen thirteen stories without harm, etc. This should more or less be even, but a lightsaber will still be just as effective as usual.

Palpatine has telepathically influenced Plagueis over the decades, but I'm quite hesitant to believe it would have any bearing in a combat scenario. Their Lightning should also be more or less equal, and telekinetically, Plagueis has atomized half a dozen assassins with a Force Wave and proceeds to kill another half a dozen with the same Wave while severely injured, shook the ground with enough force to knock assassins off their feet while similarly injured, supported and stacked over 10m of collapsed mine ceiling, and so on. Palpatine has killed over a dozen small fish, thrown TD-D9 across a room with enough force to destroy it, throws/stops/lifts/smashes together rocks, including two boulders, collapsed ceilings, shattered doorways, hurled his father/strangles his mother/kills his siblings/deforms a bulkhead while having no training in the Force, and so on. He has mused that it would require no strain for him to hurl and slam his abductors and tear down the Shimmersilk restaurant as well. Considering how neither of them were strained to perform their feats, I would say they should be roughly even, based on the fact that neither of them have really cut loose. Their feats are of similar level as well.

I consider the first round to the only debatable one, so it's probably the only one worth analyzing, simply because round 2 and 3 go to Palpatine just about every time, but if you want me to I can analyze those ones similarly. As far as the first one goes, I have classed them as even in just about everything - for physical qualities, neither exceed each other in dueling, strength, speed or durability/endurance. As far as Force powers go, they are roughly even in TK and Lightning, which are about the only ones that would likely influence a fight between the two. So I consider this to be a perfect split as far as feats go, but judging by Luceno's comments, I would probably favor Plagueis for 6/10. Otherwise, as I said, this is a perfect 5/10 split.

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#18 Posted by SSJDarthPlagueis (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

Palpatine's prime is DE, and Plagueis stomps none of the fights.

Yes Palpatine had great feats, and other abilities that Plagueis didn't had one being Force Storm, but also Palpatine didn't have feats and other abilities that Plagueis had. A major one was midichlorian manipulation. Not that Sidious had some skill at it, but it wasn't as great as Plagueis. Minus the bringing back of the dead part Plagueis can use it to even kill people one time in the book(I haven't read the book in a while so things are a little fuzzy encase if I get something wrong) Plagueis use the midichlorians in a politician to kill him, but didn't kill him immediately. He purposely kept him alive(while suffering) to have a talk with him before finally killing him. Both Sidious and Plagueis could use the midichlorians to heal themselves as well.

I know this already. I've read Darth Plagueis, and the person you were referencing was Ars Veruna. Plagueis killed him with Midi-chlorian manipulation, and "resurrected" Darth Venamis from the brink of death for experimental purposes. The fact remains that he never displayed Midi-chlorian manipulation in combat. Manipulating the midi-chlorians of helpless enemies is hardly an indication he could do the same here, in a combat scenario.

Now, for a slightly more detailed analysis.

The first round probably has the most discussion value. I would likely favor Plagueis, solely by virtue of Luceno's comments, but as far as feats go, Plagueis should still be slightly ahead.

For speed, Plagueis has ran in a blur to a droid who could dodge blaster bolts and fought at such speeds that an onlooker viewing his contest with Venamis would have perceived it as lightning streaking through the forest understory. Palpatine has fought faster than Maul could perceive and killed two Dugs such that it appeared they were butchered by a phantom. There should be no disparity here.

At this point, I don't recall strength feats from Palpatine, nor do I recall notable dueling feats, but based of Palpatine's later mastery and the fact that he hadn't been within the boundaries a lightsaber duel for over a decade (the last time he dueled since TCW was before TPM, as I recall, and TPM was the same time Palpatine killed Plagueis), and for that I will more or less deem them as equals as far as dueling skill goes. For strength, Plagueis has smashed helmeted skulls and punched through armored torsos while severely injured (see my next paragraph for exactly how severe his injuries were). Before receiving any training in the Force, Palpatine has crushed the skulls of guards and torn their limbs off. This should be roughly even as well.

For durability and endurance, Plagueis has fought on while having lost a heart (and in danger of losing another), lost a trachea and had several blood vessels severed, and was unaffected by a Quara and Kaleesh's attempts to attack him with teeth and claw. Palpatine has crawled across a tundra while suffering rashes from Plagueis's lightsaber, fallen thirteen stories without harm, etc. This should more or less be even, but a lightsaber will still be just as effective as usual.

Palpatine has telepathically influenced Plagueis over the decades, but I'm quite hesitant to believe it would have any bearing in a combat scenario. Their Lightning should also be more or less equal, and telekinetically, Plagueis has atomized half a dozen assassins with a Force Wave and proceeds to kill another half a dozen with the same Wave while severely injured, shook the ground with enough force to knock assassins off their feet while similarly injured, supported and stacked over 10m of collapsed mine ceiling, and so on. Palpatine has killed over a dozen small fish, thrown TD-D9 across a room with enough force to destroy it, throws/stops/lifts/smashes together rocks, including two boulders, collapsed ceilings, shattered doorways, hurled his father/strangles his mother/kills his siblings/deforms a bulkhead while having no training in the Force, and so on. He has mused that it would require no strain for him to hurl and slam his abductors and tear down the Shimmersilk restaurant as well. Considering how neither of them were strained to perform their feats, I would say they should be roughly even, based on the fact that neither of them have really cut loose. Their feats are of similar level as well.

I consider the first round to the only debatable one, so it's probably the only one worth analyzing, simply because round 2 and 3 go to Palpatine every time, but if you want me to I can analyze those ones similarly. As far as the first one goes, I have classed them as even in just about everything - for physical qualities, neither exceed each other in dueling, strength, speed or durability/endurance. As far as Force powers go, they are roughly even in TK and Lightning, which are about the only ones that would likely influence a fight between the two. So I consider this to be a perfect split as far as feats go, but judging by Luceno's comments, I would probably favor Plagueis for 6/10. Otherwise, as I said, this is a perfect 5/10 split.

No you prove your point here on the first battle. Still like to compare battles 2 and 3 even though I know Sidious has the better edge in them. Not to mention how if lets say if Plagueis did kill Sidious in the two other battles he wont be dead he would just transfer himself to another clone body, and Plagueis has no combat for Force spirits(and he never believed in them).

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#19 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssjdarthplagueis: Hmm... I meant to say "I don't recall many strength feats from Palpatine at this point", not "I don't recall any strength feats", because I just listed some LOL.

In the last two battles, you are correct. Plagueis has never demonstrated any form of spirit manipulation, while Palpatine could simply beat him there with a Wormhole. While Plagueis does not believe in Force Spirits, he did encounter the spirit of Marka Ragnos on Korriban, as he recorded in Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side. As he was rather disbelieving in immaterial spirits, he demanded Ragnos's spirit to prove its identity as something beyond a simple illusion, which, according to Plagueis's recordings, it was unable to do and it simply disappeared. Still, this hardly proves Plagueis can manipulate spirits.

And I honestly think that in round 1, Palpatine is faster, simply because he could fight faster than Maul could see. As much as fighting fast enough to appear as lightning to a regular onlooker is impressive (even more so by the fact that he did so within a forest, an unfriendly terrain when it comes to accessibility for movement), Maul would still be able to perceive him, so I consider Palpatine to be faster. So I'll edit that.

That being said, the speed disparity should be just about negligible .

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#20 Edited by SSJDarthPlagueis (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: He still continue to not believing in spirits still after that event(denial). His main focus was physical immortality which also he's not the only Sith who tried to achieve that minus Sidious. He was more like a scientist of the dark side of the force, and never practice much (other than Midi-chlorian manipulation) on his force abilities. If he had he would have been much more powerful. As for saber skills he didn't really like saber dueling, and I think Sidious also felt the same but he prefer to use force skills. They both rarely draw their saber, and only once has a saber duel has been shown for Plagueis which was only in the novel.

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#21 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssjdarthplagueis: I know.

As ambiguous as Plagueis's dueling skill is, as of the moment, I don't find it terrible at all. I honestly would call him about even with somebody like Mace Windu. Why? Because in his duel with Venamis, who was trained in the exact same fighting style as him, Plagueis showed great adaptability and versatility in being able to change tactics in order to outduel somebody who was trained to master the exact same fighting style, so it was almost as if Plagueis was dueling himself. Furthermore, Venamis proved to be proficient in multiple lightsaber forms, and was also shown to be ambidextrous and capable of dueling while suspended in the air. Given how Venamis was trained to fight in the exact same fashion as Plagueis, it would only be fair to assume Plagueis could replicate all of that.

Beyond that, he fought hundreds of Kursid warriors alongside with Palpatine, using Force pikes instead of lightsabers, which is more of a speed/agility feat than a dueling feat, but it does still show knowledge and mastery of other weapons. He also recognized Maul's Teras Kasi and Jar'Kai, which could be an indication he knew them himself (the latter of which Sidious knew, so he likely taught it to him). And last but not least, he trained Palpatine into one of the most skilled swordsmasters the galaxy has ever seen in its history.

I think the above is a clear indication that Plagueis's dueling skill, though ambiguous, is not to be taken lightly. I would still class it as fairly upper-tier, with not a whole lot of duelists surpassing him in that regard, and even so, this would appear to be more because of the fact that his skill is somewhat unknown, rather than poor.

I do find it queer that Plagueis used numerous physical attacks on the Maladian assassins, despite expressing distaste for lightsaber dueling. Obviously, that wasn't lightsaber dueling, but it was still physical, something Plagueis spent less time mastering, and something he implied to not enjoy very much either.

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#22 Posted by SSJDarthPlagueis (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Some what never blame Plagueis or Sidious to not focus on saber dueling and focus on the Force more. Just funny how someone like Sidious doesn't practice with his saber much(obvious at the beginning he did), and becomes the greatest duelist...or he's just gifted lol! Both Plagueis and Sidious know all forms, but I think Niman form for a saber dueling style they used more. Since Niman is a combination of all forms it would suit them more since they know every dueling form, and can quickly change up in the battle.

A Plagueis vs Yoda would be a good one. I think Plagueis Force abilities are better and more quicker as Yoda tends to have to focus a little more and take time to do a powerful Force attack. While Plagueis doesn't take time to launch a powerful attack, but more likely Yoda is the better saber duelist.

Since you mention Mace Windu(and I'm changing subject here) I refuse to believe that he beat Sidious in a saber duel. Personally I think Sidious fluke the fight in order to give time for Anakin to arrive, and turn him to the Dark Side.

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#23 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssjdarthplagueis: Yoda and Plagueis are equals in everything except saber dueling, in which he surpasses Plagueis clearly (but not vastly).

As for Windu and Palpatine, he lacked the ability to react until he was tremendously amped (and this is consistent with Palpatine fighting faster than Anakin, Leia and Maul could see). Instead of reposting everything, though, I'll just link you to a blog our resident SW expert Silver posted:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened/77247/

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#24 Edited by SSJDarthPlagueis (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Saber dueling goes to Yoda, Force abilities between him and Plagueis is debatable. Yoda tends to have to take a moment to move ships or make a powerful force push or blow while many other Sith and Jedi's tend to make powerful Force attack in less time than Yoda or even instantly. But when Yoda does takes his time to concentrate on a Force attack it is powerful, but how is that going to help Yoda against Plagueis when he is more quicker to making powerful Force attacks in less concentration than Yoda? Not to mention Plagueis physical abilities are better. Also forgot to mention about Plagueis breathing mask that he had to use after the attempted assassination is a weakness, but Yoda would never do a cheap attack on it.

Will look on Silver's post. Thanks.

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#25 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssjdarthplagueis: Yoda would capitalize on it if utterly necessary, but I'm not entirely sure it would be necessary.

And Plagueis does not exceed Yoda physically at all. Yoda fought Palpatine to a standstill (in some sources, he even disarms him). This is particularly telling of his strength, since Palpatine is more or less as strong as Plagueis. For that matter, Yoda also gave Tyranus difficulty with his strength, such that merely blocking Dooku's attacks depleted the Count's reserves. Additionally, he has traveled for kilometers with a cannon situated on top of a crate on his back.

For speed, Yoda has contended with Palpatine, whose speed exceeds Plagueis, so Plagueis does not surpass Yoda here either.

For telekinesis, Yoda has demonstrated the ability to manipulate several-hundred-meter-long ships, and even smash two together. Beyond that, he has lifted a platoon of droidekas into the air with a gesture, forced platoons of Super Battle Droids and tanks back into the aforementioned several-hundred-meter-long landing crafts, caused avalanches, and so on. His feats exceed Plagueis's, but we've never seen Plagueis cut loose with TK, and it's certainly not implausible that they are even.

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#26 Posted by SSJDarthPlagueis (2750 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Plagueis is much better than of Dooku's also give me an example of Yoda using super strength into battle because I can't think of one right now. Yoda just haves the stamina to stay in a match with Plagueis and Sidious however, Yoda retreated mostly likely knowing he can't beat Sidious. If Yoda were to face Sidious later on before his death I think Sidious would kill him.

To get back on subject. If Plagueis were to attempt a assassination on Sidious no matter which Sidious it would be he would succeed. Plagues would kill him with his Mdi-chloran manipulation which Sidious has no counter for that. As you brought up that Plagueis has no history one using it in combat, but as a assassination use in stealth he can as he has done it. So if I would have gave Plagueis prep time in the last three battles it might go to him.

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#27 Posted by SSJDarthPlagueis (2750 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssjdarthplagueis: I have already given you examples of Yoda's strength. The fact that he could fight equally with Palpatine (who won via Force powers) is telling. Palpatine's strength feats rival Plagueis's.

And no, Plagueis cannot simply kill Palpatine with Midi-chlorian manipulation. He has only, and can only, manipulate the midi-chlorians of those who lack the will to resist. Palpatine's will more than exceeds Plagueis's.

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#29 Posted by deactivated-59c0eef934dfe (918 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: I know your post is ancient, and so I apologise for the disturbance, but please can you post the interview where Luceno says Plagueis>Sidious? Thanks.

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#30 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kiadisandwich: Here it is, but he doesn't outright say that Plagueis > Sidious, just that he might find a way to undermine (TPM) Palpatine in a duel.

http://clubjade.net/?p=36295

"Jessiah, if it had come to a duel, I think Plagueis may have found a way to undermine his apprentice."

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#31 Posted by deactivated-59c0eef934dfe (918 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by Slayedigneel (1921 posts) - - Show Bio

Plagueis first round.

Sidious the rest.

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#34 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

Plagueis is a star buster

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#35 Posted by Mrsportsguy13 (116 posts) - - Show Bio

RIP to the people working at that Burger King when they fight.