The Gauntlet Runner
Darth Nihilus, the Lord of Hunger
- The combatants start 20 yards apart
- The fight takes place on neutral ground
- Morals on
- No prep
- No BFR
Does Nihilus drain?
Does Nihilus drain?
@greysentinel365: @dawn_of_ages: Before we get into a comparison of feats or tossing around hype accolades, let's establish what kind of an entity Valkorion is dealing with here. As you all know, Darth Nihilus isn't of your usual stock of Force users; rather, he is a "wound in the Force." Nihilus' very nature grants him perks he will be benefitting from and his opponent - Valkorion in this instance - will be suffering from. These factors are always at play and divisible from the inherent power levels of the combatants, so even if Valkorion is "more powerful" on the merits of his feats or accolades, it does not mean he'll defeat Nihilus in battle.
First of all, Nihilus' mere presence saps the life energy of all those around him, and funnels it into Nihilus himself; essentially, Force Drain without Nihilus needing to actively initiate it, nor does its a consume Nihilus' energy reserves as it is merely a byproduct of Nihilus' innate condition as a wound in the Force.
"And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him."Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Darth Nihilus was one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the history of the galaxy, so corrupted that his very presence meant death.Miniature Bust: Darth Nihilus
In short, Valkorion will get weaker and Nihilus stronger throughout the battle. The longer the fight lasts, the smaller Valkorion's chances of victory become, as he lacks any sort of skill with a lightsaber nor does he carry one on his person.
Nihilus also gets an amp from merely being in the proximity of other Force users, the strength of which depends on the power of the Force user(s) he is facing. First, let's take a look at what the Sith Assassins in the service of the Sith Triumvirate were capable of:
"Those Sith assassins can sense their prey through the Force - it is like a hunger. They feed... and grow stronger... when they are near Force sensitives."Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Note that the assassins do not possess the standard Force Drain technique; what they're doing is simply taking advantage the passive effects of their personal Force aura. We can't precisely quantify the boost, but we can infer from the fact that the Sith Assassins of the Triumvirate are considered competent Jedi killers, the power they gain allows them to at least contend with their opponent, no matter how strong they are personally, as the greater the adversary, the greater the boost. Then, what Nihilus does is the same thing but taken to the nth degree:
Darth Nihilus is literally a destroyer of worlds, powered by an insatiable hunger that drives him to consume greater and greater populations. While one may reasonably expect someone fallen to the dark side to employ Force lightning against a foe, no one expects a fleet of starships commanded by Sith Lords consuming entire planets.Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition
"The sect of assassins chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time."Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
As Kreia states, Nihilus' aura allows him to gain even more power from his enemies than the Assassins. It is then plausible that Nihilus would skyrocket in power in the vicinity of a Force user like Valkorion, or at the very least, become reasonably stronger than the latter, as he is already extremely close to him in power without any amps. Even if we lowball and say Nihilus would merely be his equal or even inferior, remember that from the moment the battle starts, Nihilus will grow more powerful and Valkorion in turn grow weaker, as I've already explained, so the tides would shift to Nihilus' favor very swiftly.
But Valkorion's plight does not end quite yet. Nihilus' Force aura will also make it difficult for Valkorion to call on the Force fully. As noted by Vrook Lamar, places of mass death make it difficult for a Force user to center oneself i.e. focus, and mental states can affect a Force user by a great deal as have been shown many times throughout the mythos.
"In such places, the deaths of so many echo, so much so that it is difficult to center oneself."Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Darth Nihilus' aura echoes the destruction of Malachor V, where millions lost their lives. Thus, it can be inferred that his presence makes it harder for his opponents to center themselves in the Force, making them weaker overall.
"I saw a graveyard world, surrounded by a fleet of dead ships. I felt it through him... as I feel it through you."Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Another arguable byproduct of this is Force users being sundered in Nihilus' presence, as happened to Visas Marr. She herself described the death of her homeworld of Katarr as being severed from all that she had been connected to through the Force. Given that both Katarr and Malachor V are wounds in the Force, and that Nihilus' aura projects the death of Malachor V, he himself being a wound in the Force, it is reasonable to conclude Nihilus' presence would evoke a similar sensation:
"I was there when the planet died. To see everything around you extinguished... it... was if I was blinded. It was as if the Force had... been bled from the world. I was the only living thing remaining on the planet of Katarr... and my life, my agony, was a flicker in the darkness that was the planet. All that I had been connected to had been severed."Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Accepting Nihilus' unspoken invitation, she pledges herself to the Dark Lord.Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
Nihilus' aura sunders the connections Force users have to the world around them, making them see only death in the Force as opposed to the life and other objects they used to. Note that its victims can still use the Force to the same capacity as before, they will simply lose the ability to sense anything aside from death. Given this, I could imagine Valkorion would have quite a hard time concentrating or focusing the Force, as the sensation of being severed from it would be quite severe and shocking. Not to mention the lack of precognition and the ability to even sense your own power, while not damaging physically, it would be so psychologically and mentally, which does in turn affect the user's ability to call on the Force negatively.
Notice how I still haven't mentioned a single feat for Nihilus; I've merely described the passive effects his nature as a wound in the Force would have on the battle - yet Valkorion's chances of winning look quite grim regardless. Now that I've the chance though, I might as well rub salt on the wound and compare their respective planetary feats: the devastations of Katarr and Ziost.
"When my lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died."Unseen, Unheard
Drawn to the assembled Masters, Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr. Millions of Miraluka died, along with most of the Jedi Order’s senior members.The Old Republic Codex: The Conclave at Katarr
Amazingly dark and devastating powers are the purview of some of the greatest Sith Lords of the Knights of the Old Republic era. They devastate and consume entire worlds with a thought... Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side.Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition
Global cataclysms are not unheard of. Whole worlds teeming with life have been rendered lifeless by meteorites, broken apart by instability in the planet's own core--even atomized by the destructive force of a supernova. But the eerie calm of a world stripped of life yet left otherwise intact is another matter altogether. Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.The Old Republic Codex: Death of a World
According to the above sources, Darth Nihilus "can consume entire worlds with a thought," and did so to Katarr, killing every living being instantly merely by speaking. Vitiate on the other hand unleashed a tsunami of dark side energy that enveloped the entire planet, disintegrating all sentient beings who came into contact. At first glance, it may be difficult to determine which feat is superior, but it becomes clear once one looks deeper into it.
The Old Republic Codex states that "Whispered rumors have persisted [...] but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side taken to its extreme" regarding "intricate Sith rituals" and "deadly, arcane machines." It's quite simple: Vitiate used a ritual or a machine to eradicate the populace; it wasn't done under his own power. Nihilus' feat is far better.
Nihilus also killed the planet from orbit, while Vitiate was on the surface and thus amped by Ziost's dark side nexus the entire time:
“The dark side is strong on Ziost. Using the outpost’s resources, our former Emperor can massacre the defenceless to fuel him.”The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor
Situated in the heart of Imperial Space, Ziost has long played a vital role in the intricate history of the Sith. For thousands of years, in fact, the craggy, arid world served as the ancient Sith Empire's capital until infighting splintered its leadership. Today, Ziost remains an important commercial, political and population center of the Empire--this in spite of its shift from a warm climate with dense forests to a bitterly cold tundra. Whether this environmental turnabout is due to geological reasons or eons of dark side influence remains a subject of scholarly consideration.The Old Republic Codex: Ziost
Sparsely populated and largely unexplored, Dathomir wasn’t Korriban or Ziost, but it was powerful in the Force, in part because of its fecundity, but mainly due to the presence of groups of female adepts who practiced dark side magicks.Darth Plagueis
To conclude, even if Valkorion is "more powerful" than Darth Nihilus in the Force, there is no reason to believe the gap is large by any means; the latter's feats still reign supreme here, eclipsing the Immortal Emperor's by a country mile. And given that, Valkorion is kind of screwed here, if I may remind you what Nihilus' aura does:
So there you have it folks, the case for Nihilus clearing. I doubt Nihilus would stomp Valkorion, but I can't see the fight lasting any more than a few minutes, honestly. Regardless of how close the fight would be, one thing is clear, and you would do well to always remember it:
Contrary to the propaganda and ramblings of member @azronger
- I will offer a more realistic assessment of this battle.
If anybody has any doubt about the supremacy of Valkorion, please consult my blog: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/valkorion-respect-thread/97466/
FIRST: The ability of Darth Nihilus to consume an entire world is not suspect but there is no concrete evidence for the argument that Darth Nihilus could commence a planet-wide consumption on a moment's notice. This is apparent from the events concerning Telos Four.
The forces of the Sith Triumvirate had hunted the Jedi almost to extinction. The Jedi Exile, cut off from the Force, went in search of the remaining Jedi Masters and, perhaps, an explanation. But the Exile’s mentor, Kreia, had other plans–when the Exile finally gathered the Masters, Kreia slew them all.
As the Exile recovered from this encounter, Kreia deliberately enticed the terrible Darth Nihilus to the planet Telos Four. Nihilus devour all life on the planet, and Nihilus’s dreadnought, the Ravager, was met by the Republic Navy and Mandalorian forces.
During the battle, the Exile boarded the Ravager and faced Nihilus. Unable to devour the Exile as he had so many others, Nihilus was finally defeated. With Telos safe, the Exile pursued Kreia.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex entry titled "The Battle of Telos Four."
Notice the term "prepared to" in the aforementioned revelation? This makes sense because Darth Nihilus could not muster enough strength to consume Telos Four in a span of several hours. Size of a planet might be a factor in this.
Learn more about the Battle of Telos Four from here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Telos_IV
You can simply play the game and see it all yourself.
Cataclysm of Katarr does not actually prove that Darth Nihilus consumed it on a moment's notice. His fleet might have remained unnoticed above the mesosphere of Katarr for substantial amount of time; cloaking devices might have been employed to conceal its presence. Katarr wasn't renowned for its defenses anyways. Visas Marr's remark does not add up to what transpired around Telos Four. In-fact, Visas was traumatized by the events in question and under spell of Darth Nihilus during the course of Unseen Unheard. Under such circumstances, we can expect a victim to exaggerate stuff.
Finally, the Jedi Council called a conclave on the Miraluka colony of Katarr. The order’s Masters, including the legendary Vandar Tokare, gathered to discuss the possibility that the Sith had returned. They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony. , Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr. Millions of Miraluka died, along with most of the Jedi Order’s senior members. Walking Katarr’s lifeless surface later, Darth Nihilus came across the : Miraluka Visas Marr, whom Nihilus .
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex entry titled "The Conclave of Katarr."
Now, a question comes to mind that how come Visas managed to endure an event of such scale and intensity anyways? Although she was unconscious when Darth Nihilus stumbled upon her on the surface of Katarr, this (nugget of) truth raises a question mark in regards to powers of Darth Nihilus being infallible in turn. You see that Darth Nihilus considered Visas suitable for 'apprenticeship' afterwards which imply that her survival impressed him.
SECOND: We have seen Darth Nihilus successfully consuming and/or killing living (mortal) beings only. We also know that he failed to consume Meetra Surik when she was a "Wound."
Now, Valkorion is an entity with the ability to cheat death - he transcended the vulnerabilities of living (mortal) beings over time. You destroy a vessel - no problem! Valkorion will bring another to bear against you. We can expect Darth Nihilus to affect something tangible but nothing implies that Darth Nihilus can affect Valkorion in his intangible form (a completely different plane of existence from mortality).
Developments on Ziost made one thing abundantly clear:
Jedi and/or Sith are known to defeat a Sith spirit under the right set of circumstances with certain abilities but they were unable to touch Valkorion in his intangible form. Sith, in particular, attempted to get a fix on Valkorion's intangible form, to no avail:
In another time, it might have been cause for celebration. It might have emboldened the Empire, breathing new life into their efforts to crush the Republic. But with the Sith Emperor’s apparent reawakening comes the common knowledge that he is no longer interested in ruling over the galaxy. Instead, he seeks to consume it. The Empire’s highest ranking officers and dignitaries are now in a state of heightened alert, .
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Return.")
Valkorion's extraordinary defenses could be a factor in preventing both Jedi and Sith from getting a fix on his intangible form on Ziost and otherwise. He has the ability to completely mask his "Force signature" and cloud the senses of other Force-users - apparent from the accomplishments of the First Son - prime child of Valkorion. In-fact, protagonists were unable to get a fix on Valkorion's presence on Ziost - they could only hear his voices and interact with his possessed subjects.
Darth Nihilus's senses aren't infallible actually. There is evidence that a fallen Jedi Atris outed the Conclave on Katarr to Darth Nihilus. Similarly, Darth Traya alerted Colonel Tobin (a high-ranking member of the crew of Ravager) to the presence of Jedi on Telos Four who in turn informed Darth Nihilus and they moved to Telos Four as expected - lured into a trap actually.
THIRD: Valkorion's powers are absolutely potent and his reaction-time can be astonishingly fast. He one-shotted Darth Marr before the latter could even make a move - Darth Marr who could move so fast that even a well-trained Sith (e.g. Darth Lachris) would get the impression of teleportation while trying to assess his movement.
Valkorion is known to literally bend the arc of time itself in order to alter the course of an engagement. You will find evidence of this capability in my blog.
Therefore, it is not only possible for Valkorion to make it really difficult for Darth Nihilus to assault his vessel but the former can destroy his opponent before the latter can muster an effective response. Darth Nihilus's ability to siphon energy of his crew with his mere presence is not going to make any difference in this case because Valkorion is way too powerful and capable of defending himself. It shall be noted that Mandalore the Preserver (Canderous Ordo) fought Darth Nihilus alongside Meetra and Visas and made it out alive.
We shall also keep in mind the fact that there were numerous Sith in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire who were practitioners of Force Drain powers and none was able to challenge Valkorion in any way of form. Examples include Lord Draahg, Darth Baras and Lord Ikoral. Lord Draahg entrapped Darth Vowrawn in a web of energy that would disintegrate the latter (if not disrupted); Darth Baras fed on a Dark Entity to fuel his strength and glean meaningful information from it; and Lord Ikoral fed on his subjects to replenish his energy while contending with a Strike Team that was dispatched to assassinate him. Purpose of this disclosure is to make it clear that the ability to feed on a subject [in the context of mere presence] is not going to affect Valkorion one bit.
CONCLUSION: Darth Nihilus is a dangerous foe and his ability to consume a world is not suspect. However, it is not wise to assume that his powers aren't infallible (i.e. no-limits fallacy) and nothing implies that he can tackle an entity like Valkorion unless the latter does nothing and gives an opportunity to Darth Nihilus to bring his powers to bear against him. Valkorion is officially more powerful, capable of bending the arc of time itself to his advantage in a dire situation, capable of dampening/affecting the senses of his opponent to his advantage and also capable of striking from afar on a moment's notice - before an opponent can react.
It is safe to assume that Valkorion can prevent Darth Nihilus from mounting an effective response, and destroy his opponent in time.
As for the claim of Valkorion performing a ritual on Ziost - this is completely unsubstantiated and not a single codex entry imply as such. Please consult this blog for more information: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cataclysm-of-planet-ziost/105050/
Any ritual is explicitly confirmed as such in any codex entry. In-fact, cataclysm of Ziost is a clear-cut demonstration of the destructive potential of the Dark Side (taken to its extreme) from Valkorion, and a solid proof of his superiority over others in mastery of the Dark Side and sheer raw power. Keep in mind that Ziost is a huge planet, and one of the major population centers of the galaxy at the time.
@dawn_of_ages: Sorry, but no. I'm not going to waste my time on one of KMC's most biased and laughed at posters. I've said to LeGenD's face that he does not hold any potential for constructive and healthy discussion and that I'll not engage with him on any topic, yet the guy still keeps on responding to me with his pseudo-intellectual and condescending nonsense despite my not-so-subtle hints that I'm tired of his inanity.
If member Azronger is taking a jab at you then understand that you are doing something right. Only hardcore (deluded) Sheevites have a problem with me because I can clearly see their double-standards and show them the mirror, and there are plenty in KMC. These guys cannot be reasoned with and mostly trolls. Unfortunately for them, I am not easily fooled or misled. If anybody can counter my argument on merit, he or she is most welcome to do so.
Make a thread about Palpatine vs. Darth Nihilus, and invite Azronger to comment in it. You will notice that the tone of Sheevites would be completely different - suddenly they will notice every shortcoming of Darth Nihilus.
@necromancer76: Yeah, it did. But the quote applying to Nihilus just makes no sense. We'd have MW Revan being able to pull fleets out of gravity wells. By SoR the guy should be nuking planets with a flick of his wrist. It's too wonky to claim it applies to Nihilus. Supremacy quotes in general don't, for him.
@the_buddha_: I mean, picking and choosing what statements count and what don't creates an astronomically large gray area in terms of power levels. Seemingly outlandish quotes have been confirmed in the past, anyway. Take the Malak quote. Nobody thought Malak was greater than Exar Kun, but it's pretty much been verified on Twitter by those responsible for the validity of statements like it. If KOTOR Revan>Malak>Exar Kun, then the Meetra quote doesn't seem as outlandish relatively speaking.
@necromancer76: Well Nihilus is special because KOTOR 2 specifically noted that Meetra can’t even perceive Nihilus, so it stands to reason the quote doesn’t apply to him (also, Malak > Kun isn’t too outlandish, JA Kun is immensely stronger than TOTJ). The Meetra quote can also apply to mastery, and not power. Though not even Revan’s most ardent supporters claim it applies to Nihilus, it becomes way too wonky if it does, generally. Holistic intent + Actualized showings have Nihilus obliterating MW Revan. Though I have SoR Revan near him.
-"Perceive" and "mastery" are both up for interpretation, so I guess we can't really argue into a subjective debate
-I thought ghosts were weaker than their physical form incarnations
-The majority of Nihilus' showings are circumstantial, and Revan as of Malachor has access to the same abilities he has, so it doesn't seem impossible
-SoR Revan is far beyond Nihilus' tier because I can't see the latter replicating his Yavin feats
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