@i_like_swords That's not what I'm saying at all. You don't seem open to accept the notion that Zealot or Nemesis are as skilled if not more so than Maul. I know tone is a difficult rhetoric to decipher over the internet..but that's what it appears to be from my end.
Hell, I don't even remember the context of our back and forth much less what proof I gave. That was like a month ago. But I'm sure it was more than "They have 3000 years of experience so therefore they're more skilled". The only thing I remember explicity is that we never came to an agreement, and I don't feel like revisiting an extended discussion again. Not now anyway..
@frozen: In processing info in nanoseconds, yes, but it doesn't really say much for his reflexes. He could still be tagged even after he has calculated a million ways for victory.
shown here
Maul can also be tagged when ready
by a kid...... yeah i'm a troll i know.
@i_like_swords: My post was in response to this one of yours.
Thousands of years of training
Actual showings of skill, accolades, and specific demonstrations of effective training >>> Inferred training/time period measurement
being called the best swordsmen on their planet
Hmm...
Being called the best swordsmen on a single planet vs Being called one of the most skilled, deadly and highly trained swordsmen in galactic history spanning over 5000+ years and billions of beings. I think Maul's accolade is a bit better.
and with almost every single issue that they should be called such things and that their trained well enough to deserve such titles.
I'm fairly willing to bet that in Maul's short 16-17 years of formal training, he gathered far more knowledge, quality of experience, and fighting ability than Zealot or Nemesis in their "thousands of years" of training/experience.
You put forth that Maul's accolades were better than Zealot or Nemesis' and I was responding with why that wasn't so. You said that while Zealot was the best on one planet, Maul was one of the best in galactic history spanning 5000 years and billions of beings. Pointing out the planet Khera, and it's blood-soaked culture was done to correct and expound on Zealot being the best on "a single planet". The galactic history you're taking Maul's reputation from covers less than half of Zealot's life. Think about that. It's even been said on Wildstorm Earth that Zealot knows more about combat than the entirety of Earth civilization (it's even been suggested that what the planet Earth knows of combat was heavily influenced by Zealot and what her group, the Coda, brought to Earth). You think Maul's reputation is better because he's one of the best swordsmen over a time period that's not even half as long as Zealot has been honing her skills. I disagree. Added on to that timespan is the intense focus on swordsmanship that makes up for the culture Zealot was raised in. Sure there are billions of beings in the time that Maul is said to be one of the best of, but how many of these beings were focused on combat the way Zealot's entire planet was? Kherans live and breathe close combat and they LOVE swords. They can manipulate reality but prefer to specialize in swordplay. That's a level of focus that I doubt is present in the 5000 years of galactic history Maul's getting his rep from. Additionally, all the people Zealot is claimed to be better than on her planet are also near-immortals trained to kill from birth with thousands of years of swordplay under their belts. And while she's the best on Earth and Khera, it's not like Khera can really be considered one planet. Khera is home to galactic conquerors. And I mean that literally. There's at least one crew of Kherans that has actually conquered numerous galaxies on their own. So it's not like it's just Kherans beating Kherans with no outside exposure. Zealot's people travel the stars and no one has ever been said to be better than her with a blade. I understand that rep isn't everything, I just don't think being one of the best in 5000 years comes anywhere close to being actually the best for twice as long having come from the background that Zealot did. Below isn't really an example of anything in particular (though there are comments about speed an accuracy in the text that might be nice), just something to maybe help you understand the Kheran view of sword based combat and how fundamental it is to their race. Comicvine is still giving me trouble so read it from the bottom to the top.
Im also not really sure what suggests that Maul got more out of a couple decades of formal training than Zealot got out of approximately 10,000 years of formal training and constant warfare. I mean, Zealot can actually hold a conversation with any member of the Coda using nothing but an exchange of blades and blows. She's done it before just to find out information while being observed by Majestic. She sees movement as language like Batgirl does and that's not even something she brags about, its just a small part of her skill, a party trick. The Coda she brought to Earth? The group of her fighters that she broke off from and gave a few thousand years to become a world wide organization of assassins? She wiped them all out on her own, all across the world, except for their very last stronghold. Maul killed some people when he was 3 and has killed a bunch of other people. Cool. Zealot has wiped out her equals in physical ability, skill, and experience (measured in millennia) across the planet just because she thought they were a bad representation of her values.
You put forth that Maul's accolades were better than Zealot or Nemesis' and I was responding with why that wasn't so. You said that while Zealot was the best on one planet, Maul was one of the best in galactic history spanning 5000 years and billions of beings. Pointing out the planet Khera, and it's blood-soaked culture was done to correct and expound on Zealot being the best on "a single planet". The galactic history you're taking Maul's reputation from covers less than half of Zealot's life. Think about that. It's even been said on Wildstorm Earth that Zealot knows more about combat than the entirety of Earth civilization (it's even been suggested that what the planet Earth knows of combat was heavily influenced by Zealot and what her group, the Coda, brought to Earth). You think Maul's reputation is better because he's one of the best swordsmen over a time period that's not even half as long as Zealot has been honing her skills. I disagree. Added on to that timespan is the intense focus on swordsmanship that makes up for the culture Zealot was raised in.
I apologize for my ignorance earlier. Having half-debated the point with juiceboks, and having been told by another that Zealots accolade only spans one planet, I was just sort of thinking "come on.. is this it?"
But you can now consider me informed.
I think I can now confidently concede that Maul isn't as good of a duelist. I mean sure.. the guy has the potential to become like Zealot, providing he became immortal. He had mastered something like 6 martial arts by the time he was thirteen, and had mastered over a dozen forms of combat in total by the time he was 22.
But I mean.. Zealot's combat knowledge exceeding anything to have existed on earth just blows what Maul has out of the water.
Sure there are billions of beings in the time that Maul is said to be one of the best of, but how many of these beings were focused on combat the way Zealot's entire planet was? Kherans live and breathe close combat and they LOVE swords. They can manipulate reality but prefer to specialize in swordplay. That's a level of focus that I doubt is present in the 5000 years of galactic history Maul's getting his rep from.
I would however say that Maul is just as focused on physical combat as Zealot is. It isn't exactly a language for him, but it is what he was essentially born to do. He lived under the harshest conditions imaginable, spent his entire life being subjected to cruel discipline, and did just about nothing other than training to be the ultimate physical warrior. Similar to how the Kherans let reality manipulation take a backseat for physical combat, Maul's training was near enough entirely engineered towards Force-augmented martial arts and swordsmanship, with very little focus on other traditional Force offences like Force Lightning and advanced telekinesis.
I'll let some of these quotes from my Maul respect thread do the talking:
Darth Maul was taken as a child by Darth Sidious himself, to be moulded into the perfect assassin. His training would of killed most other beings, and his discipline and dedication to the dark side and his master is unwavering.
There is no pain where strength lies.
To Darth Maul, it seemed that his master had always been there, a part of his life — implacable, indomitable, inexorable. Since before Maul learned to walk, discipline had been his guiding beacon. Darth Sidious had moulded him from a weak, puling child into the ultimate warrior, sculpting his body and his mind as a seamless weapon. Maul was willing to die for him, without question and without hesitation. Lord Sidious’s goals were the goals of the Sith, and they would be achieved, no matter what the cost.
Maul’s entire existence had consisted of training, of exercise and instruction. Early in his life, before his voice had deepened, Maul had learned the intricate movements and forms of the teräs käsi fighting style, the patterns of movements based on the hunting characteristics of various beasts throughout the galaxy: Charging Wampa, Rancor Rising, Dancing Dragon-snake, and many more. He had practiced gymnastics in environments ranging from zero-g to gravity fields twice that of Coruscant’s. He had mastered the intricate and dangerous use of the double-bladed lightsaber. And all for one purpose: to be the best possible tool of his master’s will.
But he had not learned just how to fight. His master’s teaching had encompassed far more than that. He had also learned stealth, subterfuge, intrigue. What is done in secret has great power."
An excerpt from Maul's journal.
I do not mind waiting. I use my time wisely. Waiting time is training time. Every minute of my life is devoted to learning glorious Sith tradition as well as hard physical training. I keep myself in a constant state of readiness. When I meet the Jedi I will be at the peak of my power. I will be the strongest fighter in the galaxy.
Every training exercise has value, even the most basic ones. For example: One of the earliest training exercises taught by my master consisted of running up a wall. I stared from one end of the training room and ran toward the wall. I took several steps up to the wall with my momentum and then flipped over to land on my feet. I did it over and over, even as my leg muscles burned with fatigue. If I missed, I could have broken my neck. Still, I continued. There is no fear in a Sith. Training drives out fear. The greatest thing I have learned about the Sith tradition is to be prepared to lose my life at any time.
Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
Now.. if at this point you're intrigued enough to want to hear more, I've dropped everything else I've found about Maul's training in a spoiler block below. If you want to learn more about him go ahead and open it up, but you don't have to if you don't want to/don't have the time, because it is a lot of reading. I'm mostly just sharing to show you what kind of character Maul is, if you're curious.
Additionally, all the people Zealot is claimed to be better than on her planet are also near-immortals trained to kill from birth with thousands of years of swordplay under their belts. And while she's the best on Earth and Khera, it's not like Khera can really be considered one planet. Khera is home to galactic conquerors. And I mean that literally. There's at least one crew of Kherans that has actually conquered numerous galaxies on their own. So it's not like it's just Kherans beating Kherans with no outside exposure. Zealot's people travel the stars and no one has ever been said to be better than her with a blade.
Well, to be fair.. the Sith, for thousands of years, have been conquering the Galaxy on and off. I'll let Wookieepedia do the talking for this one.. I know it's not exactly a canon source but I think this particular segment is reliable enough to get my point across:
A star system, also known as a planetary system or simply a system, was a group of bodies orbiting a star. Star systems usually consisted of one or more planets, and the debris remaining from the formation of the primary planets and central star, such as comets and asteroids.
The galactic standard approach to naming star systems was to base the name off the central star or planet.
There are 7,100,000,000 stars in the known galaxy, with approximately 3,200,000,000 habitable star systems. Only about a billion of these systems have life. Only 69,000,000 of those systems meet population requirements for Imperial representation. All star systems are given coordinates that are used by navicomputers to permit space travel. Some star systems were unnamed, and were only known by their numerical designation.
The Sith, during The Old Republic time era, conquered half of the galaxy. The Sith armies were not newcomers to conquering vast amounts of space. Here is a map of the Galaxy:
You'll notice, from the center of the map, and then downwards, you will see titles like "Deep Core" "Mid Rim" and "Outer Rim". These are sort of like the main areas of the galaxy. A star system in the outer rim orbits pretty far away from the center of the galaxy, for example.
Now for a more specific example, I'll show you just what kind of galactic-level conquering Maul has accomplished single-handedly.
The Black Sun crime syndicate essentially spanned over the entire known galaxy, from the Core Star Systems to the Outer Rim Star Systems. Every planet. Maul took down this crime syndicate single handedly, killing their leader, and every single Vigo, apart from one.
Now.. 10 years later after Maul emerged from his "death", even more impressively - Maul is currently Mandalore. He is the leader of the Mandalorians, a race of humans living on the planet Mandalore. Mandalore holds influence overs thousands of neutral Star Systems. So that's a good starting point. But what else?
Maul has formed his own organization known as The Shadow Collective, which is the combined forces of The Black Sun, The Pikes, The Hutts and the Mandalorians. You already know how powerful and influential the Black Sun is, now consider that the Hutts are even more powerful and influential than them, and well.. I don't really know anything about the Pikes.
But yeah.. Maul has, off his own initiative, formed a galaxy-spanning military force of some of the most powerful crime syndicates in history, as well as earned the rulership of an entire planet. Emperor Palpatine himself (who holds the influence over the entire galaxy, seeing as he is the Sith, tells the Jedi what to do under their own noses, is the leader of the Galactic Senate, and also behind the scenes commands the Trade Federation which is at war with the Repubic Palpatine is in total control of) has deemed Maul and his organization a legitimate threat to his empire, and is currently seeking to destroy him. That's pretty decent if you ask me.
Im also not really sure what suggests that Maul got more out of a couple decades of formal training than Zealot got out of approximately 10,000 years of formal training and constant warfare. I mean, Zealot can actually hold a conversation with any member of the Coda using nothing but an exchange of blades and blows. She's done it before just to find out information while being observed by Majestic. She sees movement as language like Batgirl does and that's not even something she brags about, its just a small part of her skill, a party trick. The Coda she brought to Earth? The group of her fighters that she broke off from and gave a few thousand years to become a world wide organization of assassins? She wiped them all out on her own, all across the world, except for their very last stronghold. Maul killed some people when he was 3 and has killed a bunch of other people. Cool. Zealot has wiped out her equals in physical ability, skill, and experience (measured in millennia) across the planet just because she thought they were a bad representation of her values.
Yeah, Zealot definitely has the better track record here.. more knowledge, better accolades, and more accomplishments.
Maul has gone down as one of the best Sith in the entire orders history. He's casually defeated Qui-Gon Jinn and his then-apprentice Obi-Wan - Qui-Gon who was said to be one of the best pure swordsmen the Jedi had ever produced (in 25,000+ years) and who apparently peered Mace Windu (the second best Jedi swordsman in history) although this is debatable seeing as Qui-Gon hasn't done anything to put him at Mace's equal.
He's then went on to defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi in combat during The Clone Wars, who is also said to be one of the best Jedi swordsmen to have come from the order.
Maul has mastered two forms of lightsaber combat, has mastered over a dozen martial arts (some being described as exotic and forbidden), has mastered the use of the Saberstaff which is said to be intricate, dangerous and requires perfect atunement even from an experience Force user, as well as single blade combat and dual blade combat, and he is also proficient in Niman, the 6th lightsaber form. Most notably he has mastered Teras Kasi, a martial art originally designed for non-Force users to go up against Jedi.
Even then, he isn't really scraping Zealot. But I think he could contend with her at the very least due to his speed and notable skill.
In any case, you've enlightened me on just what tier of beings inhabit the Wildstorm Universe, and I've learned a lot about Zealot as a swordswoman. So thanks for that. I hope I've represented Maul well enough for him to have gained some respect.
In terms of this thread.. Midnighter wins.. decisively. Someone who deliberately prolongs a fight with Zealot because they like fighting.. I'm not even going to go there xD
Does midnighter have any resistance to TK ? Otherwise Maul TK stomps him.
Neck snapping
Leg cracking
Heart squishing
well?
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