Darth Maul vs Exar Kun

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DaddyPrometheus

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#252  Edited By DaddyPrometheus

@w4nkdestroyer: I mean, the burden of proof is on you, not me, what source states that Maul is as good of a Sorcerer as Exar Chad? Or even a Sith Sorcerer at all? As far as i know, he was never canonically credited with Sorcery in any source, not even his RPG character sheet.

You have to prove that Maul is definetly a Sith Sorcerer, or he isn't, it's not the other way around.

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#254  Edited By DaddyPrometheus

@w4nkdestroyer: How is the burden of proof on me? I laughed at the idea of Sorcerer Maul, which is not backed up by any official sources, i didin't claim anything, i laughed at the baseless claims made by another person.

And you didin't give me any source to back your view, just another thread with speculation.

One of the main arguments is having Maul above or on the same level of guys that know Sorcery, which doesn't prove Maul has Sorcery himself, that he is capable of learning it power-wise doesn't mean he has learned it, and there's nothing that credits him with such powers, so he doesn't have them.

Of course Maul would beat a Sorcerer like Ludo Kressh for example, but that doesn't make him a Sorcerer, him scaling above Sorcerers is unrelated to what i'm saying.

Speculating that Sidious may have taught him to use those powers isn't proof, he is never credited with those or mentioned as having experience using such abilities, thus, he doesn't have them, assuming otherwise is just creating a fan fiction, he is a different kind of fighter than Exar, Sidious or Dooku, and was purposefully shown to focus primarly on physical combative abilities instead of esoteric powers.

That he knows of those things doesn't mean he can do them.

Baseless speculation =/= proof, with this logic, any character that knows of Sith Sorcery is automatically a Sorcerer himself, which we know isn't the case.

In any case, the arguments presented in that thread are about why Kun being a sorcerer isn't an instant win for him, not Maul being a user of Sith Sorcery himself, so i don't see the correlation with what you're saying.

If i'm wrong then show me where Maul is definitively credited with Sith Sorcery. You can't, it's pure headcanon.

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@erkan12 said:

Maul lifts TCW S4 Kenobi with only one arm and physically overpowers him with ease.

No Caption Provided

Source: The Clone Wars - Season 4 Episode 22 (2012)

Maul knocks 2 Clone troopers out with a single kick.

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Source: The Clone Wars - Season 7 Episode 12 (2020)

??? Why you show low tier sterngth feat for the Maul? Maul have much better strength feat than that I think. On your Maul legend RT Maul have very good feat such as this

Darth Maul delivers a ''punch to a three meter long Wampa'' through its torso, and kills it.

''The wampa was in chains, bolted to the floor of its cell with heavy Nylasteel manacles around its legs, wrists, and throat. It stood almost three meters tall, its thick fur matted with filth, grease, and blood. One of its horns had snapped on midshaft, creating a jagged ocher-colored dagger that curled only halfway around the right side of its head. Across its chest and abdomen, great swaths and patches of its white pelt had been ripped away to expose a puckered landscape of scar tissue— no doubt the results of previous battles. Its lips wrinkled back to reveal rows of razor-sharp teeth, and spittle new as it unleashed a bellow of hungry, frustrated rage and jerked at its restraints. Maul stood his ground.

(...)

Summoning whatever remained of his strength, Maul fired himself at the beast. Hooking his hands into claws, he plunged them through its fur, ripping into the soft tissue of its torso. The wampa screeched and wailed. Maul barely heard it. Shoving his hands deeper, he sank both arms in up to the elbow, beneath its rib cage and into its thoracic cavity, groping until he found what he was looking for—the slick, pulsating mass of its heart.''

Source: Maul - Lockdown (2013)

Darth Maul kills a security officer with only the ''edge of his hand'', and moves faster than the human eye can follow.

''Snarling, he whirled, moving faster than human eyes could follow, breaking Magneta’s neck with the edge of his hand, then spinning again to send his stiffened right foot into the chest of the bodyguard as he rushed into the room.''

Source: Darth Maul - End Game (2012)

Darth Maul slams a Barabel into the ground, and kills it. Barabels have an enhanced strength.

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Source: Star Wars - Darth Maul #04 (2000)

Maul kills a ''Yuuzhan Vong'' warrior in a hand to hand combat, without even using a saber.

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''Maul recoiled, but it was too late.With a jolt, his vision was gone, burying him in instant darkness. This was the second time in as many seconds that the thing had caught him of guard, and now he knew why: the creature was somehow cut of from the Force, utterly detached from the deep field of heightened sensitivity from which he was constantly drawing information about his surroundings.(...)

The intuitive sensory abilities that he took for granted in any normal battle were simply not there.An acidic heaviness took hold of his optic nerves like a slow drip, seeping in, sinking deep, and he realized that he could already feel the poison taking control, spreading out in concentric layers of numbness through the muscle and tissue of his face. Now the thing’s shrieking laughter was everywhere. Willful.Triumphant.You must end this now.(...)

Somewhere in front of him, the attacker had already responded to the death of his weapon with a howl of cheated rage. Maul no longer heard it. Primal as it was, it was stillonly emotion, a cry of weakness no more instructive or relevant than the pain he’d willed away moments earlier.

He had no more use for it now than he ever did. He did, however, take advantage of his opponent’s scream just long enough to reach into its open mouth, feeling the moist warmth of its breath on his hand as he retrieved his tooth, plucking it from the thing’s gums. Holding the mouth agape, Maul crammed the serpent’s severed head inside, then clamped the gray lips tight to keep the snake’s head from falling out..''

Source: Maul - Lockdown (2013)

Maul kills a four meter tall Deathspine Varactyl (a giant Lizard) with his bare hands and demonstrates ''a brute-force that never seen before''.

''What he saw defied all expectation—an orange-skinned Deathspine varactyl, four meters high, came bursting forth into the concourse, its tail thrashing and whipping the air. The bird-lizard was shrieking and hooting wildly, slamming its body against the far wall, and immediately Strabo understood why.

(...)

But the redskinned inmate hung on with a kind of brute-force determination that Strabo had never seen before in any species. He was suddenly grateful that he’d decided not to defy Jagannath’s orders to come here— and glad that he’d never had to face the Zabrak in a bout. By now the entire prison was responding to the disruption. Guards’ boots were pounding way up the hall.

What’s he doing? Why is he— A blur of activity snapped Strabo’s attention forward again. Jagannath had managed to grip the varactyl by its crest and wrenched its armorplated skull hard to the right, slamming it directly into one of the steam pipes along the far wall. The creature shrieked again—a wailing mournful cry that turned out to be its swan song.

The steam pipe burst apart, shooting a thick, scalding blast of focused heat directly into the thing’s face, boiling its flesh and scalding its eyeballs in their sockets. The effect was immediate. Strabo’s nostrils stung with the stench of burned feathers and flash-fried skin as the varactyl’s flesh peeled back to expose the thickly plated vault of its cranium.

Its body collapsed with the Zabrak still astride it. “What happened?” somebody asked. “Lizard broke loose,” Izhsmash muttered. “Jagannath stopped it.” “Yeah, I guess he did.” In front of him, Jagannath had taken hold of the varactyl’s boiled skull. With a final jerk, he snapped it completely free from its neck and yanked it upward.''

Source: Maul - Lockdown (2013)

Maul defeats a giant spider creature (Spydr) with his physical abilities.

''Maul was considering whether to jump the chasm or scale the ceiling when he noticed a mammoth Spydr clinging to the cavern wall behind him.

When the Spydr crawled closer, Maul felt his fingers begin to lose their grip. When the Spydr was within range, Maul swung both of his legs forward and kicked the creature in the head.The injured Spyder screeched and sprayed thick web at Darth Maul. The Sith Lord released his right hand, grabbed the sprayed strand, and gave a sharp pull. The Spyder did not sever it's connection to the web in time and suddenly found itself being torn from the ceiling to Maul's tug. Maul let go of the strand and watched the Spydr plummet into the chasm.''

Source: Episode I Adventures 3 - The Fury of Darth Maul (1999)

Clone of Darth Maul matches with Darth Vader's strength.

No Caption Provided
Source: Star Wars Tales 9 - Resurrection (2001)

But the dragon-slug didn't pass. It slithered around the stalagmite, found Maul's concealed position, and opened its maw. Maul knew he would have to defend himself. He ran toward the creature, jumped over its back, and wrapped his arms around the end of its tail. As the dragon-slug twisted to bite his attacker, Maul dragged the dragon-slug's tail toward its stomach and tricked the creature into forming a loop. Before the dragon-slug realized what was happening, Maul pulled the tail around its looped body. The creature was instantly tangled by its own elongated form.

Maul left the writhing dragon-slug to untie itself and advanced through the cave.

Source: Episode I Adventures 3: The Fury of Darth Maul

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@sheevsmacker: Because the Maul wankers don't know anything from the EU outside TCW material, which explains their shitty scaling abilities.

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@sheevsmacker: Because the Maul wankers don't know anything from the EU outside TCW material, which explains their shitty scaling abilities.

Erkan literally made the respect thread which I got most of the strength feats from -___-

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DaddyPrometheus

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#258  Edited By DaddyPrometheus

@sheevsmacker: I was being mostly hyperbolic, but it just shows they value TCW over the rest of the more consistent material that they know exists.

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@breakofdawn:

Shhh, TPM Maul > TPM Mace, Yoda or Dooku. It's true, since one quote says it. Just ignore their own quotes and Maul being pressured by Jinn.

Trolling aside, TPM Maul is very clearly above TPM Mace and TPM Dooku:

Sith Dooku was multiple orders of magnitude above Jedi Dooku:

Not only had the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies, but Sidious was also a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf even the power of the dark side itself.

Revenge of the Sith

And ROTS/AOTC Dooku is on the same tier as TPM Maul, tier 8.

ROTS/AOTC Dooku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jedi Dooku.

Furthermore, TPM Dooku was slightly inferior to TPM Windu, who was only slightly superior to TPM Jinn:

Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

"His fighting style is graceful and precise, albeit a bit deadlier than Qui-Gon."

Source: Star Wars Episode I: Jedi Power Battles: Prima's Official Strategy Guide.

TPM Windu>TPM Dooku>=TPM Jinn

The same Jinn, Maul was toying with, and utterly disgusted by:

Having expected a greater challenge from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he felt even more disgusted by them.

Source: The Wrath of Darth Maul

Maul leered again at Qui-Gon. "You think you're driving me back. You have no idea that I'm in control. You don't know where I'm taking you."

Source: The Wrath of Darth Maul

TPM Maul>>>TPM Jinn.

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#260  Edited By Erkan12

@w4nkdestroyer said:
@erkan12 said:
@kirkseven said:
@w4nkdestroyer said:
@kirkseven said:

Teenage Ahsoka could beat Kun.

Which means Maul vs Kun is a 50/50.

Yo, do you have the TPM Maul>ROTS Grievous quote? I need it for my CaV against decaf.

Also nice bait for decrap pissard.

All jokes decaf :).

"One of the themes with Grievous was that I didn't want a big and powerful villain. I wanted a cunning and almost cowardly villain who was not super strong or super powerful but, at the same time, a good fighter. But I didn't want someone bigger, stronger, and more powerful than the other villains..."

~ George Lucas, Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary

I took this to mean prequel villains or perhaps all major movie villains, which does lock GG beneath TPM Maul, Dooku, Vader and Sidious.

@w4nkdestroyer said:

@kirkseven: Nice, this also disproves the TPM Kenobi>Suited Vader bullshit.

We also have Filoni saying Ventress > Grievous.

Filoni's opinion isn't really relevant. Grievous is clearly >> Ventress given his fights with Kenobi. Ventress only happened to be amped by Dathomir.

If she wasn't, than we would rule it off as TCW PIS like other ridiculous fights.

There was no such a thing as nexus or planetary amps in Canon unless they specifically say that there is. She defeated Grievous fair and square.

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Filoni created Ventress, and he also had access to Grievous's TCW feats, so he can make her stronger as long as he wants, it's a fictional character.

@lord_tenebrous said:
@erkan12 said:
@lord_tenebrous said:

@erkan12:

Maul was physically restrained by 2 soldiers.

Maul gave his powers to Talzin, he was Force drained in the end.

And there was no reason for Maul to stop his own men, they were just trying to save his life.

That is baseless speculation buddy.

Maul was explicitly trying to break free and rejoin the fight. The two humans prevented him from doing so.

Lmao what speculation? Maul literally tells Talzin to take his powers, he was Force drained.

No Caption Provided

Maul also understood they needed to escape, otherwise he would execute his men for not obeying orders later, Maul was just upset that Talzin was going to die.

Your desperate Maul trolling got debunked again, enjoy your loss.

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>brings up canon statements as if they are relevant here

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So salty... :S The original post says nothing of canon or legends.

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Changed my mind. TOTJ Kun wins in a decent fight. JA Kun stomps.

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Erkan12

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#265  Edited By Erkan12

Maul hurts the feelings of Mace Windu and Dooku fans after a ''decent fight''.

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'True or False? Dooku cannot be bested in a lightsaber duel.

False: Opress disarms him but is bested by Force lightning.''

Source: The Clone Wars: What is a Sith Warrior? (2012)

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Savage Opress alone is a threat to Dooku.

Dooku: ''I can sense him Grievous. That creature Savage Opress is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes.''

Grievous: ''You consider him a threat?''

Dooku: ''He is a threat to all of us...''

Source: The Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 21 (2012)

While Maul is superior to Savage Opress.

''No love lost: They might have been fellow Nightbrothers, but it was Darth Maul who was very definitely in charge. Savage Opress accepted his role as apprentice to the more powerful Maul, at least for a time.''

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File Remake #044 (2014)

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@erkan12: Not expecting a response since you block everyone who disagrees with you, but oh well:

"Threat" is a vague term that lacks any true quantifiable measurement. Case in point: ROTJ Sidious considered ROTJ Luke a threat, yet the difference between them in power is immense.

Next, Savage "disarming" Dooku. First, Dooku was caught off guard by Savage's interruption of his duel with Ventress:

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Second, Dooku then fairly easily dodges several of his strikes:

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Third, the only reason Savage manages to disarm Dooku is due to his sheer physical strength, which allows him to overpower Dooku's one-handed parry with a two-handed overhead strike:

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Your argument then rests on Savage's physical strength being enough to override Dooku's sheer skill edge, which is laughably false:

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Without catching Dooku off guard and forcing him back, Savage is unable to even tag Dooku with his blade or his physical strikes, whereas Dooku (whilst preoccupied by a far more skilled swordswoman) effortlessly dodges several of his attacks, and manoeuvres around him, even when unarmed.

As for Maul being superior to Savage, this again is meaningless. Savage is not close to Dooku, either in power or in skill. Your entire argument is built around a dismissal of the context of Dooku either A) being caught on the back foot, or B) Savage gaining an immense rage amp mid-fight which caught even his "mistress" by surprise. Without it, Savage can't even gain an decisive advantage over Adi Gallia without the Force, who repeatedly dodges most of his strikes and even lands a blow on him:

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As for Maul's fight with Aayla and Mace, not only did Mace have to compensate for a far inferior opponent to both (Aayla is probably Ventress level at best), but the best we see is that Maul can briefly contend with Mace in sabers. You're welcome to provide evidence for any sign of parity - let alone superiority - from that. I'll wait.

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slight majority to exar

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@w4nkdestroyer: I laughed at the idea of Sorcerer Maul, not that he knew what Sorcery was, and you seem to concede the point that Maul isn't a sorcerer, so ok.

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@w4nkdestroyer

I know, and I'm agreeing with you. But Kun did feed off of Kyp gradually which raised him vastly above his TOTJ self

Again, no. Kun was not above his TOTJ self at this point and you would have to prove otherwise given that this is a positive claim, and the series itself makes a point to mention how weak he was. Kun as of TOTJ display limitations that we no other spirits of his type display, including spirits we know are weaker than his living self

Kun did feed off Kyp and raise his power. But when Kyp left he lost his power source and this was explicitly stated in I-Jedi, and furthermore he spent a massive amount of this power to incapacitate Luke and had to go dormant to recuperate his powers after that fact

The version of Kun that was compared to Kueller by Leia did not have Gantoris or Kyp to draw from.

It raised him to the point where he was capable of stomping Luke,

He was able to do this explicitly because of hax. Luke wasn't even capable of defending against Kun's sorcery. It wasn't that he was overpowered, its more a combination of factors. Again, this was stated. None of Lukes' defensive powers would work.

Maul being the most highly trained banite Sith

THE most highly trained Banite? Thats a hell of a stretch

Scaling lines from dark side adepts who knew sorcery, yet their knowledge paled in comparison to that of a Sith apprentice.

Maul does not scale from Empire Era Dark Side adepts. Ive seen the scaling and it really doesn't work.

Maul not using sorcery in combat doesn't really mean anything.

Well he has never used it period. There is a difference

Sheev to my knowledge has never used sorcery in combat either, though he is an avid practitioner of it.

He has, but its irrelevant. He provably knows advanced sorcery.

Simply put, rudimentary powers like TK and lightning are much more effective and efficient than employing Sith sorcery mid combat.

Why though? Kun was able to wave his hand and send out waves of power that could hax out NJO Luke. How is this not effective and efficient? He could send out soul rape lightning or fire thats capable of burning steel and not going out. He could use dark tendrils which are infamously effective. This is just so insanely unsubstantiated I dont even know where to start. Even basic bitch TOTJ force blasts are more impressive than lighting from 99% of characters, in fact Aleema, who was so fodder to Kun that it would be like comparing Maul to a random nightsister, was capable of turning someone into a pile of bones with a casual blast. Kun could very likely flick his fingers and turn an undefended person or fodder Jedi into a pile of ash

We even see this. During the first time Kun gets his amulet and learns these blasts, they make Massassi warriors just kind of stop.......existing

I will grant you that Maul doesn't know Sadow's sorcery, though you would have to prove that it cannot be countered like other forms of sorcery.

Thats not the reason I brought up that Maul assuredly doesn't know Sadow's sorcery. Its a form of scaling. Naga Sadow's knowledge was merged to create a more advanced version of Sorcery with Darth Andeddu's knowledge (which was itself the Banites did not possess until well after Maul was defeated in TPM) and improved by Freedon Nadd, and Nadd's knowledge was merged by Exar Kun with Jedi Techniques and the knowledge of the Dark Holocron (which the Banites did not mostly possess, that one is sort of complicated) into his own unique sorceries that were stated to be mostly lost upon his death.

Naga Sadow's knowledge was pretty basic in comparison to most of the sorceries that Kun would have known, based on how we know this knowledge evolved over the years. My contention is, that if Sidious was unwilling to teach Maul even these abilities that were relatively basic to Exar Kun, he likely wouldn't teach him the more complex powers of later Sith. Especially given his reasoning for not teaching Sadow's knowledge. The reason Luke was unable to defend against Kun was that he didn't even know how to defend against it. There is no indication Maul knows sorcery beyond the most basic bitch of levels (im at least certain he knows of it), and if he does he knows nothing near the level of advancement that Kun does

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bump lol

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Maul