Darth Maul vs Exar Kun

@decaf_wizard: Exar Kun's abilities in the force are far out of Maul's capabilities. All his feats in every relevant category are superior by a massive degree, and his versatility is just on top of that.

No.

Tossing a 215 meter ship out of orbit hugely pre prime is better than anything Maul has.

You're being disingenuous here. We don't know how Kun lifted the ship, just that he did.

TPing hundreds of thousands of people,

Wut? Are you referring to Kun casting a spell that stunned senators? A spell he conducted off-panel? A spell that didn't freeze any Force sensitive?

and scaling above people who can TP million is above what Maul is capable of

Those people being?

@wollfmyth209

No.

Yes

You're being disingenuous here. We don't know how Kun lifted the ship, just that he did.

Actually we do

Though all of the Derriphan-class battleships were thought to be destroyed in the Great Hyperspace War, at least one survived. The ship, belonging to Naga Sadow, was buried on Yavin 4. During the Great Sith War, Exar Kun would raise the ship from the planet and put it back to service, similar to the way Darth Nihilus would raise the Ravager from the ruined surface of Malachor V.

-KOTOR Campaign Guide

And we have author confirmation on this in fact

Q: In the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, under the Sith Battleship description it states that Exar Kun recovered his ship the Corsair in the same way Darth Nihilus recovered the Ravager on Malachor V. Does this mean that Exar Kun summoned the ship via the Force from the depths of the Massassi Temple of Sacrifice?

A: That said, looking over the text, it appears to me to be a direct analogy with the Ravager and that your interpretation is essentially correct. (Another example, though in reverse, is Emperor Palpatine using the Force to bury the Lusankya, in plain sight, beneath the surface of the planet Coruscant.)

Furthermore, its backed up by the fact Kun's canonical inferior could rip bigger ships out of the sky, so it makes perfectly logical sense that Kun would be capable of accomplishing this feat

TPing hundreds of thousands of people

No, I am referring to Cinnagar

"Help!"

"No one will help you, no one even knows."

"But your ship! Energy blasts! Scanners!"

"All went unnoticed, my unfortunate friend. With the dark side I blinded every scanning technician in Cinnagar. They all watched me land and wipe out your little docking bay, and not one of them batted an eye!"

"Who.. are you?"

"I? Soon, I shall be the man who conquered this planet, the man who rules the galaxy. But for this moment, I am the man who murdered you."

The planet that had a population of about 300 billion, and Cinnagar was a megacity that covered over half the planets surface. So he mindraped every scanning tech and presumably everybody in the immediate vicinity that could have seen him land

Those people being?

Ommin, and he DID dominate force sensitives.

King Ommin rose to power in the same manner as his ancestors of the last three centuries: by dominating the populace of Onderon with the dark side.

Credit: Tales of the Jedi Companion

Gonna toss my vote in for Kun.

Not confident enough to fight me, Decaf?

By all means, make your case. Ive gotten much better and you dont have your pathetic groupies here

It was confirmed he used a lever and pulley

Nice, another double-bladed lightsaber user.

Maul schools him like he did with 3 Inquisitors and Savage Opress.

maul takes majority in sabers
kun takes force and all out

I've made my case

Right in the CaV, which was never replied to. The sub-Malak has been is in that much trouble?

Make your case then. I'll shoot it down like the piss balloon that it is

Right, the CaV filled with blatantly biased groupies who would vote against me no matter what?

Was it?

@decaf_wizard: Actually we do

And we have author confirmation on this in fact

Your first quote just says he's used the Force to lift it up, which is still vague. Your second quote is nice, but ultimately falls flat on it's arse when you consider that Avellone confirmed Nihilus didn't raise Ravager by any form of "mega-telekinesis" as he calls it. And as for Palpatine and the Mega Star Destroyer, that instance is also vague and open to interpretation. So, what it seems to me, is that all we know is Kun used the Force in some capacity to lift a ship.

Furthermore, its backed up by the fact Kun's canonical inferior could rip bigger ships out of the sky, so it makes perfectly logical sense that Kun would be capable of accomplishing this feat

If you're referring to Tulak Hord, I legitimately question how valid a source Khem Val is given he has overexaggerated both Hord's and Nox's power in the past.

No, I am referring to Cinnagar

The planet that had a population of about 300 billion, and Cinnagar was a megacity that covered over half the planets surface. So he mindraped every scanning tech and presumably everybody in the immediate vicinity that could have seen him land

OK. How does that translate to "hundreds of thousands"? It's an unquantifiable feat because we don't know how many scanning technicians there are. Nor is this neccessarily a TP feat in any capacity. He could've just messed with the technology.

There's just too many variables to immediately jump to the conclusion "Ah, he TPed hundreds of thousands".

Ommin, and he DID dominate force sensitives.

Which was done through Sith Sorcery and not legitimate telepathy. Plus, I can mention people like Shaak Ti or Maris Brood subjugating an entire world to the Force, as well. Or post-AotC Obi-Wan battling away a planet-wide DS nexus. Or the infamous Yarael Poof example. Those are all technically planetary, and are done by sub-Maul people.

Who are my biased groupies?

This is a shit excuse tbh

@wollfmyth209:

Your first quote just says he's used the Force to lift it up, which is still vague. Your second quote is nice, but ultimately falls flat on it's arse when you consider that Avellone confirmed Nihilus didn't raise Ravager by any form of "mega-telekinesis" as he calls it. And as for Palpatine and the Mega Star Destroyer, that instance is also vague and open to interpretation. So, what it seems to me, is that all we know is Kun used the Force in some capacity to lift a ship.

Your being intentionally disingenuous and vague for no reason at all, when the intention of the quote was clearly intended to prove that Kun was capable of lifting that object from the surface of the planet by comparing it to Palpatine and Nihilus. It very clearly was no some esoteric method. I mean heck, he did a similar feat while massively weakened, doing the legwork of pulling the Sun Crusher out of the core of Yavin, which given the incredible gravitic forces of a Gas Giant is a very good feat

If you're referring to Tulak Hord, I legitimately question how valid a source Khem Val is given he has overexaggerated both Hord's and Nox's power in the past.

So say he bullshitted the feat then. Assume it happened (seeing as Khem Val has no reason to actually lie). Chunk it down by two thirds, a very very liberal estimate there. You would still have Kun's canonical inferior by a large degree pulling 100 meter starship out of the sky, which re-enforces the idea he could do a 215 meter one

It's an unquantifiable feat because we don't know how many scanning technicians there are. Nor is this neccessarily a TP feat in any capacity. He could've just messed with the technology.

Read the feat, please. It said he blanked their minds with the dark side. And he would have actually had to telepathically scan and select every person in the city to pick out scanning technicians

Which was done through Sith Sorcery and not legitimate telepathy

Prove that, tbh. Even if you could, Kun is massively above Ommin in sorcery anyways and Ommin was perfectly capable of using it with a moments notice in combat, like we see when he uses it on Satal with a wave of his hand

Plus, I can mention people like Shaak Ti or Maris Brood subjugating an entire world to the Force, as well.

Leaving out massive context I see

Or post-AotC Obi-Wan battling away a planet-wide DS nexus.

Kun can have his personal power scaled above various DS nexuses anyways.

Or the infamous Yarael Poof example.

Thats widely considered an enormous outlier

@decaf_wizard: Your being intentionally disingenuous and vague for no reason at all, when the intention of the quote was clearly intended to prove that Kun was capable of lifting that object from the surface of the planet by comparing it to Palpatine and Nihilus. It very clearly was no some esoteric method. I mean heck, he did a similar feat while massively weakened, doing the legwork of pulling the Sun Crusher out of the core of Yavin, which given the incredible gravitic forces of a Gas Giant is a very good feat

I'm not. I'm just saying the quotes you presented are absolutely vague. We know Kun did something similar to Sidious or Nihilus, and that's it. But when you look into the fact that both Sidious' and Nihilus' own feats in that department are vague(one was even confirmed to not be TK) well that just doesn't look good for Kun.

Also the Sun Crusher feat was done by manipulating it's circutry, along with TK, IIRC. So it's more of a precision feat than a feat of raw power.

So say he bullshitted the feat then. Assume it happened (seeing as Khem Val has no reason to actually lie). Chunk it down by two thirds, a very very liberal estimate there. You would still have Kun's canonical inferior by a large degree pulling 100 meter starship out of the sky, which re-enforces the idea he could do a 215 meter one

Which is conjecture. All we have for Tulak is lip-service from a character who has been wrong and overexaggerated Hord's accomplishments numerous times.

Read the feat, please. It said he blanked their minds with the dark side. And he would have actually had to telepathically scan and select every person in the city to pick out scanning technicians

Scanning people and TP dominating "hundreds of thousands" is not the same. BTW, I still need a quote about there being 300 billion people, half of them being in Cinnagar, and just how many of them were working as technicians in the docking bay at the time Kun was landing.

Prove that, tbh.

It was literally attributed to his magic/sorcery taught to him by Nadd. And he was, at least briefly, resisted by a significantly pre-prime, hindered and tired Nomi Sunrider.

Even if you could, Kun is massively above Ommin in sorcery anyways and Ommin was perfectly capable of using it with a moments notice in combat, like we see when he uses it on Satal with a wave of his hand

Did he use his planet-dominating spells right off the bat ala Sidious or Vitiate? Also, when, how and scans please?

Leaving out massive context I see

Not much context to it, tbh.

Kun can have his personal power scaled above various DS nexuses anyways.

As can PoD Bane. It's not impressive.

Thats widely considered an enormous outlier

Bit of a bandwagon fallacy. And also a double-standard given you seem to think a random like Ommin can be planetary, but Yarael can't.

@decaf_wizard: why don't you edit in a judge for the cav? You come off as ducking, you should finish the cav imo

@wollfmyth209: Yep, Kun dies

@in-sidiousvader:

No. He agreed to have the victor decided by popular vote. Not happening.

Ok I gotta ask, is there a source for Kun even using TK on the Corsair to raise it? Because if not, then I don't see why it's applicable. Because I'm not finding it anywhere in my sources, just that he raised it.

Ok so he raised it, why does that suddenly mean TK? That could literally mean anything, it said it was buried on Yavin 4, he raised it and put it back into service. That's it...oh it says he did it similar to how Nihilus did with the Ravager? That means nothing, Nihilus also raised his ship where it was buried, doesn't say how he did it, for all we know it could have been dug out, repair and pressed back into service. The engines on the Ravager were still working just fine despite the damage. That and there was a Sith Academy right there, I'm pretty sure if having a base of operations there would be ways to repair said ship and leave the planet considering that Traya, Sion and Nihilus along with their troops don't seem to have much issue.

Oh look here some actual evidence of how the Corsair was raised.

By the Massassi, pulling it from the tomb.

Oh another actual piece of evidence.

Exar Kun proclaimed himself the Dark Lord of the Sith, the only surviving practitioner of the ancient arts. He subjugated the Massassi and had them construct more temples, huge structures based on Sith architecture and designed to focus dark forces. When the new slaves dug deep beneath the sites of the ancient ruins, he found the great Sith battleship, long ago entombed by Naga Sadow. Exar Kun took it as his own.

- The Essential Chronology

Yeah, seems to fit with what's above and actually make more sense.

Oof

@wolfrazer said:

Ok I gotta ask, is there a source for Kun even using TK on the Corsair to raise it? Because if not, then I don't see why it's applicable. Because I'm not finding it anywhere in my sources, just that he raised it.

Ok so he raised it, why does that suddenly mean TK? That could literally mean anything, it said it was buried on Yavin 4, he raised it and put it back into service. That's it...oh it says he did it similar to how Nihilus did with the Ravager? That means nothing, Nihilus also raised his ship where it was buried, doesn't say how he did it, for all we know it could have been dug out, repair and pressed back into service. The engines on the Ravager were still working just fine despite the damage. That and there was a Sith Academy right there, I'm pretty sure if having a base of operations there would be ways to repair said ship and leave the planet considering that Traya, Sion and Nihilus along with their troops don't seem to have much issue.

Oh look here some actual evidence of how the Corsair was raised.

By the Massassi, pulling it from the tomb.

Oh another actual piece of evidence.

Exar Kun proclaimed himself the Dark Lord of the Sith, the only surviving practitioner of the ancient arts. He subjugated the Massassi and had them construct more temples, huge structures based on Sith architecture and designed to focus dark forces. When the new slaves dug deep beneath the sites of the ancient ruins, he found the great Sith battleship, long ago entombed by Naga Sadow. Exar Kun took it as his own.

- The Essential Chronology

Yeah, seems to fit with what's above and actually make more sense.

Source for that? Because we have author quotes going against that sentiment and putting it like Palpatine burying the SSD

@wollfmyth209:

As can PoD Bane. It's not impressive.

Right, so Obi-Wan overcoming a planetary nexus (temporarily I might add) is therefore not an impressive feat, by your logic, as even the likes of Bane are superior to them

Also the Sun Crusher feat was done by manipulating it's circutry, along with TK, IIRC. So it's more of a precision feat than a feat of raw power.

Im going to have to re-read JA actually, because I can't remember exactly how that feat was pulled off. But removing it from the core of a gas giant with the force is in some aspect a TK feat even if it was both

I still need a quote about there being 300 billion people, half of them being in Cinnagar, and just how many of them were working as technicians in the docking bay at the time Kun was landing.

The quote about the population of the Empress Teta System is from Force and Destiny: Nexus of Power which I dont own, but I guess I can track down if you want it that bad. And it wasn't just that docking bay it was all

I didn't say half the population was on Cinnagar, I said Cinnigar covered more than half the planet's surface

It was literally attributed to his magic/sorcery taught to him by Nadd. And he was, at least briefly, resisted by a significantly pre-prime, hindered and tired Nomi Sunrider.

The comic literally used the word decisive to describe how badly he kicked her ass

And that was while actively maintaining spells across the entire battle might I add. Some of which was some sort of TP, such as completely blocking Nomi from using Battle Meditation. And again even if it wasn't a direct form of TP, we know he, and thus most likely Kun such as we see in the senate, can do it with a wave of his hand. Its not a ritualistic thing that needs to be prepared

Did he use his planet-dominating spells right off the bat ala Sidious or Vitiate? Also, when, how and scans please?

Again, being disingenuous. Ommin was stated as being able to dominate the populace with the dark side, probably over a large amount of time to be entirely fair, but he could still do it. And he was perfectly capable of using these abilities to dominate the will of even force sensitives with little issue

Which is conjecture. All we have for Tulak is lip-service from a character who has been wrong and overexaggerated Hord's accomplishments numerous times.

When has Khem Val been outright wrong or lied in his own recollection of events? You would need to prove that he outright lies to Nox on the regular to discount that feat. Again, even if he bullshitted the feat to a huge degree, its still a decent one.

Could King Ommin TP Darth Maul?

I like how razer posts those as if everyone didn't already know about them and proceeds to fail to realise that the KotOR:CG along with Peña's statement retconned it. It was done via the Force, and no appeals to vagueness are not grounds for dismissal.

Kun's mere presence on Thule; a gargantuan planet, for a few months at most, imbued the very crust of the world with dark side miasma.

That feat utterly dwarfs Vitiate spending 'great energy' on perfecting rituals to imbue the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas with the same. The only slightly comparable feat is the 'vague' one by Plagueis meeting Sheev, which apparently caused a winter and whatever. Hell, Sidious and his acolytes took years(decades?) to transform Byss into a dark side nexus.

Let's goe hoehm Aaahsix

@keencraft: Can I get a quote for that?

@decaf_wizard: Right, so Obi-Wan overcoming a planetary nexus (temporarily I might add) is therefore not an impressive feat, by your logic, as even the likes of Bane are superior to them

Yeah, so AotC Obi-Wan, PoD Bane, Ommin, and Maris Brood are unimpressive fellows who aren't worth much in comparison to someone like Maul or Exar Kun, hence mentioning them here, and their planetary scaling, is pretty non-sequitur. All I'm saying is if you wanna use Ommin scaling, Maul has even better scaling from Yarael, AotC Obi, and PoD Bane.

Im going to have to re-read JA actually, because I can't remember exactly how that feat was pulled off. But removing it from the core of a gas giant with the force is in some aspect a TK feat even if it was both

No, it wasn't both. The quote says Kyp even discards the thought of directly pulling the ship out of the gas giant. Instead he, or Kun, or whomever you wanna attribute the feat to, just triggered the controls. It shows range and precision, not raw power.

Kyp engulfed the Sun Crusher with his mind, surrounding it, touching it with his limitless, invisible hands. He thought about heaving it back up, dragging the Sun Crusher out of the depths of Yavin. But he discarded the thought.

Instead, with the assistance of Exar Kun, he used his innate skill to power up the controls again, to move the control levers, push buttons to alter the course stored in the Sun Crusher’s memory, bringing it out of its entombment. Kyp continued to watch the weapon’s progress, focusing on the sphere of the enormous planet as it crested the misty treetops. The Sun Crusher appeared as a silvery dot, seeming no larger than an atom as it emerged from the highest cloud layers and streaked across space toward the emerald-green moon where Kyp waited.

Dark Apprentice

So it's in no way a lifting feat. Chances are, though, that this is also exactly how Kun pulled up the Crosair. Precision and range, not "mega-telekinesis".

The quote about the population of the Empress Teta System is from Force and Destiny: Nexus of Power which I dont own, but I guess I can track down if you want it that bad. And it wasn't just that docking bay it was all

Is the quote about the population of the entire Teta system? Because if that's so, I hope you realize that applies to several planets, moons, asteroids, etc. All of which had life. So it's not 300 billion on a single planet. And even so, you'd still need to quantify how many people are in Cinnagar, how many of them are specifically scanning technicians, and how many of them Kun blinded. The feat is unquantifiable.

The comic literally used the word decisive to describe how badly he kicked her ass

Yeah, it says the contest of the Force was decisive, but Nomi did resist him beforehand. And she had been exhausted and hindered by a DS nexus at the time.

And that was while actively maintaining spells across the entire battle might I add. Some of which was some sort of TP, such as completely blocking Nomi from using Battle Meditation. And again even if it wasn't a direct form of TP, we know he, and thus most likely Kun such as we see in the senate, can do it with a wave of his hand. Its not a ritualistic thing that needs to be prepared

Sith Spells and Sith Alchemy were never quite like telekinesis, in the sense that they usually have to be "maintained". You cast them, and that's it. Whereas with TK and TP, it's your consciousness directly doing the work.

Again, being disingenuous. Ommin was stated as being able to dominate the populace with the dark side, probably over a large amount of time to be entirely fair, but he could still do it. And he was perfectly capable of using these abilities to dominate the will of even force sensitives with little issue

Dominate doesn't neccessarily mean mentally dominating, just in-general ruling and subjugating people. With Sidious on Byss, we have quotes that show off exactly how Sidious did it: he literally mind-locked the inhabitants of Byss to live in a dreamworld. With Ommin, it could've just been a dictatorship, with his Dark Side magic being the reason he became a dictator. And it was obviously done over a greater length of time.

Even if I were to grant you this point about Ommin mind-dominating the entire population of his planet, a lowly Sith acolyte Cartariun did something similar in X-Wing Rogue Squadron: Requiem for a Rogue. And he was just one of Palpatine's lesser agents, inferior to Mara, Jerec, and Sedriss, nevermind Maul or Vader.

When has Khem Val been outright wrong or lied in his own recollection of events? You would need to prove that he outright lies to Nox on the regular to discount that feat. Again, even if he bullshitted the feat to a huge degree, its still a decent one.

He had claimed about how Horde single-handedly took on thousands of Jedi at once, despite us now knowing there's more context to that. He had also consistently hyped up Darth Nox, as well. Lip-service isn't enough. For all we know, Hord could've downed a ship that size, but by manipulating it's controls, destroying a single engine, or maybe he just outright took it down. But if the last were the most likely, then the entire hierarchy of SW would need to be bumped up.

@decaf_wizard: Believe it's from A Guide to the SW Universe, though not sure which edition.

That said, does the author in question even know about the source or is he just going off whatever someone asked him about it and saying "ya you're assumption sounds correct". Authors certainly don't have to know/read every bit of material and as been said, a lot of the time they don't really think their words hold much weight if at all.

Plus, it's up to the person to prove that Kun used TK, rather than just assuming. Otherwise if we're gonna play the assuming game, then let's do it for all the other characters too, it would be only fair right?

But here we have it then, Kun used the Massassi to dig out and raise the ship from the tomb.

Kun takes force and all out in a stomp. Sabers should be close. Kun >>> Vodo, but Maul > Jinn.

Both Jinn and Vodo are only narrowly below the Sith they were killed by. But Kun is better than Maul in both lightsaber combat and the Force by a large margin. He wins every time.

Kun oneshots.

Even Kun when thousands of years past his prime should prevail.

Maul wins if sabers. TOTJ Kun wins via sorcery. JA Kun slaughters him with a gesture.

Lmao.

Wow.

Nice.

Good.

Lol.