Darth Maul:
vs
Darth Vader:
Rules:
Legends only
Darth Vader is suited
Darth Maul is taken at his Legends prime: Son of Dathomir.
Misconceptions:
In Legends, Knightfall is Vader's prime, but this is suited Vader.
Son of Dathomir is considered both Canon and Legends, like the films. So if Maul did something in those comics, it applies to both Canon and Legends.
Who wins and why? I'm really curious about this.
Personally, I know very little about Legends Vader, but I do know that George compared him and Maul, saying they were like each other. So that automatically places them on the same level in Legends. However, this states that Maul, as of The Phantom Menace, was second only, perhaps, to Sidious in lightsaber combat:
Does Vader have an accolade like this? It is also worth noting that this accolade comes long before Maul's prime in Son of Dathomir.
What are some of Maul's best feats?
Getting the better of General Grievous after a long battle:
Holding his own/fighting evenly with Mace Windu and Aayla Secura:
Speed blitzing four Magna Guards:
Outmatching Obi-Wan Kenobi:
Outmatching Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi as of The Phantom Menace:
One-shotting Obi-Wan Kenobi in Sith Hunters via Force Choke:
Killing Jedi Masters Bruu Jun-Fan and Ko Solok while pre prime:
Stomping Savage Opress while pre prime:
"Savage's lightsaber howled as he flung himself at his brother in a brutal attack. The assault would have ended with most opponents cut in two and lying on the deck in lifeless halves. But Darth Maul was not most opponents. He parried Savage's slash effortlessly, their red blades sparking and chattering where they came in contact with each other. Then Maul twitched his wrists and spun Savage's saber out of his hands. A moment later Savage was lying on the deck, pinned by Maul's metal foot." ~ Shadow Conspiracy
Casually crippling the Black Sun Organization single handedly, slaughtering armies of mercenaries in the process, all while pre The Phantom Menace:
Slaughtering seven of the deadliest beings in the Galaxy in less time than it takes to say it while pre The Phantom Menace:
Sensing and dodging a missile faster than Mace Windu, who ends up unconscious:
Slaughtering waves of Droidekas, Commando Droids, and Super Battle Droids:
Easily destroys a group of Battle Droids, then subdues Grievous by tackling him faster than he could react, showcasing superior strength and speed:
Finally, there's a clone of The Phantom Menace Darth Maul besting A New Hope Darth Vader:
I'm not 100% certain of the last one's validity, I don't know much about Legends Vader, and there are so many more feats and accolades from Legends Darth Maul, but I'm--personally--favoring Darth Maul for a 7/10 victory.
LMFAO...so this is your idea of trying to get justice from the other thread?
Pablo has no Pull-in Legends continuity.
Vader Defeated TPM Maul clone by one-shotting him himself and stabbing Maul in the process.
Stated that Vader was "Equally formidable" to Palpatine.
Vader wins because he is equally formidable as Palpatine is.
Vader isn’t inferior to all Jedi. Just TPM Kenobi Qui-Gon etc etc.
Qui-Gon is one of the best pure swordsman in the orders history and even pre-TPM Obi-Wan is his rival and credited as one of the best in the order. Vader being beneath them still allows him to be above the bulk of the order.
Pretty much all of the Jedi Vader fought were fodder. Those who weren’t fodder he won via circumstance or didn’t win at all.
Vader’s potential was 80% of the emperors. Nowhere does it say he fulfilled even that. Considering he only held a slight edge on neophyte Luke and lost to RotJ Luke it’s clear where Vader stands.
Also these are statements from
1. George Lucas. Everything he says is G-Canon and cannot be overridden.
2. Pablo Hildago (Who at the time was answering for Lucas) head of the story group.
Moreover said statements do not contradict each other in any way. Even if they did. Each person respective authority overrules it.
you said it can't be overridden but... According to Leland, it in how many sources does this particular fact appears in. So...the more sources that back up this claim the better.
and in every source but one It says Vader rivals Sidious.
LMFAO...that makes no sense, how is luke not a good Jedi when Sidious was scared of him?
in a George Lucas Story, he has Vader Rivaling Sidious. where Starkiller who is Around Vader level can tank Force lighting from Sidious. George Lucas might have thought that for a time being but then he changed its mind on it. it's not the first time he's done this, Return of the Jedi was actually going to be called something else until Lucas changed his mind on it.
George Lucas had updated his Canon prior to Selling it Disney, in pretty much every source it says Vader was getting stronger than he ever was before. Luke had to draw upon the Darkside to Fight Vader when they blade locked.
Vader was defeating Master level Jedi as well.
@mygod000: Feel free to post them. My guess is you won't. And it's established that the Emperor was distrated and Vader was hopped up on "super energy" (term used by Lucas) from the love of his son + had been building his power for several minutes beforehand.
It's not representative of his baseline.
well, you are wrong about me not posting them.
Ben was still clutching his lightsaber when he reached an access tunnel that led back to Docking Bay 327. As he entered the tunnel, he sighted a tall, shadowy form at the tunnel's other the end. Even if Ben had never seen Darth Vader's cybernetic incarnation via a HoloNet broadcast on Tatooine, he still would have sensed the power of his former apprentice, now concealed within black armor.
The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi
Kenobi gauged the shrinking distance between the oncoming troops and himself, then turned a pitying gaze on Vader. "This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words."
A New Hope
Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was he even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground ... but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.
Return of the Jedi
Just post 6 sources that said Vader was stronger than he was as Anakin. actually 7 because the first one I posted above stated Vader was "Equally formidable" as Sidious.
George Lucas changes his mind on a lot of things, at first he said Vader was weaker than every other Jedi in Golden age then he changed his mind about it later on which is why he updated his canon before he sold it to Disney.
Now you are going to most like just Ignore all this and using your own opinion since that how people are who have a personal bias towards characters do.
Image 1
Outweighed by all these and Lucas quote retcons it stating that even by ESB Vader is weakened
Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.
Geroge Lucas Empire Strikes Back Blu-Ray commentary
Dismissed by canon rules
Image 2
Likely only refers to mental fortitude. Either way retconned by the quotes below and Lucas statement supersedes it by canon rules. Dismissed.
Image 3
No evidence it refers to Anakin. Regularly Anakin and Vader are separated. Either way retconned by the quotes below and Lucas statement supersedes it by canon rules. Dismissed.
Ben was still clutching his lightsaber when he reached an access tunnel that led back to Docking Bay 327. As he entered the tunnel, he sighted a tall, shadowy form at the tunnel's other the end. Even if Ben had never seen Darth Vader's cybernetic incarnation via a HoloNet broadcast on Tatooine, he still would have sensed the power of his former apprentice, now concealed within black armor.
The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi
Ben recognizing that the power is Anakin doesn't mean it's the same magnitude. Either way retconned by the quotes below and Lucas statement supersedes it by canon rules. Dismissed.
Kenobi gauged the shrinking distance between the oncoming troops and himself, then turned a pitying gaze on Vader. "This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words."
A New Hope
Kenobi's opinion. Nothing more. Either way retconned by the quotes below and Lucas statement supersedes it by canon rules. Dismissed.
Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was he even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground ... but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.
Return of the Jedi
Vader being amped by the Emperors presense means nothing. Also remember Vader and Anakin are separate. Hence why the phrase "he becomes Anakin again" is always used. Vader is a separate person and therefore quotes of this nature do not apply. Either way retconned by the quotes below and Lucas statement supersedes it by canon rules. Dismissed.
Now let's clear this.
RotJ Luke and Vader are equals. This is undeniable.
Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.
Beware the Sith
By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan’s journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would be nearly impossible for most, but Skywalker’s unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star.”
Fightsaber
Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers.
Jedi Battles
The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match.
Fact File 111
Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious than the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.
RotJ script
On the Death Star, Luke and Darth Vader were engaged in a duel that was even more vicious than their battle on Cloud City. Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter, and his skill with his lightsaber had improved greatly. As they swung at each other in the Emperor’s throne room, Luke sensed the advantage had shifted to him.
RotJ Junior Novel
For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
RotJ Novel
On the Death Star, father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man. But unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon-freezing chamber of Bespin's Cloud City, this is a battle of equals. The young Jedi has grown in the interim, and if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him.
RotJ Comic
As father and son faced each other in a lightsaber duel, it was clear that the younger man had now developed powers that equaled his father’s
Fact File 5
So RotJ Luke = Vader.
In fact. Luke is better than Vader really. Considering he's winning while holding back
The battle between Luke and Vader raged throughout the throne room. Vader pressed the attack at every turn, but Luke held back, even ducking beneath a shadowed staircase when the fighting grew too intense.
Vader The Ultimate Guide
Luke tried to avoid the fight, and only struck back in self-defense.
The Complete Star Wars Trilogy Scrapbook
But if the son holds any reluctance at the clash, the father seemingly does not! Darth Vader presses forward.
Return of the Jedi comic
On the Death Star, father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man.
Return of the Jedi comic
Luke stands up to Vader's full powers while holding back and is winning. So therefore Luke is comparable to the Emperor right?
Well
The second father-son duel took place on Emperor Palpatine’s second Death Star. Now more able to control the Force, Luke Skywalker was finally able to defeat his powerful father. But he was no match for the evil Emperor.
Secrets of the Sith
Still lying against the bridge railing beside the elevator shaft, Vader watched the Emperor extend his gnarled fingers and unleash blinding bolts of blue lightning from his fingertips. The lightning struck Luke, who tried to deflect the crackling bands of energy, but was so overwhelmed that his body crumpled to the floor.
Rise and Fall of Darth Vader
Infuriated by Luke’s resilience against the dark side, the Emperor unleashed a deadly torrent of dark side lightning. Skywalker was powerless to resist the onslaught, and his life was fast draining away.
Fact File 120
Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling . . . Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain.
RotJ scripts
Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke’s inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.
Star Wars Insider 86
Luke attempted to absorb the Emperor’s Force lightning "but was so overwhelmed” and “powerless” he crumbled to the floor. As the Return of the Jedi novelization and script portray, this is clearly a pitting of Luke’s Force energy against the Emperor’s. The text further notes the Emperor continually intensified his Force lightning after overpowering Luke. This performance by Luke directly demonstrates how Vader would ordinarily fare against the Emperor - near-instantly overwhelmed against but a taste of his dark side powers.
In fact let's see Vader and Vader+Luke be faced off against the Emperor
My sense of the relationship is that the Emperor is much more powerful than Vader and that Vader is very much intimidated by him. Vader has dignity, but the Emperor In Jedi really has all the power."
"I didn't want Vader to be all-powerful. In the first film it was very easy to make him into some kind of superhero. But I decided not to do that.
Lawrence Kasdan and George Lucas, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplay
Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever know.
Vader The Ultimate Guide
But because Palpatine was so incredibly powerful, and despite several attempts, Vader learned that he had no reason to believe he could ever defeat the elder Sith Lord.
Rise and Fall of Darth Vader
Vader, who was all too aware of the Sith “rule of two” that mandated a single master and single apprentice at any time, had his own designs on Luke. Palpatine’s omniscience, however, had changed the rules of engagement. Vader no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before.
Vader The Ultimate Guide
And let's dwell on this one for a bit and remember that Palpatine TP oneshot Vader from across the galaxy shall we
Boarding his shuttle, he ordered the pilot to lift off. A pity, my son, he thought. You could have joined me and together... we could have destroyed the Emperor and ruled the galaxy in his place. As he stared at the severed appendage in his hands, a sudden flash of insight struck the Dark Lord, realization dawning like the sunrise of Bespin. Perhaps, if you will not be turned, little Jedi, a suitable substitute may be arranged.
Suddenly, Vader was struck to his knees by the horribly powerful voice that rolled like fiery thunder through his brain. The pilots struggled vainly to ignore the Dark Lord's... discomfort. "Yes, my servant," the voice boomed in his mind, dripping raw evil. "Come to Mount Tantiss, immediately. I shall meet you there, and we will discuss my new trophy."
"Yes...my Master," Vader gasped, feeling an icy stab of dread in his soul, as the Emperor's mocking chuckle still echoed in his mind. His Master had detected his rebellious thoughts. This discussion would be most unpleasant. Most unpleasant indeed.
Clone B-2332-54
But they're totes equals right Mygod?
Let's keep going
Vader grimaced. A year had passed since his last encounter with Luke Skywalker on Cloud City, where he had revealed his identity to Luke and told him it was his destiny to destroy the Emperor. Vader suspected that the Emperor knew of this treachery, for the Emperor knew everything eventually. But even if the Emperor were aware of all that had transpired, Vader was certain he would not feel threatened. The Emperor was simply too powerful.
Rise and Fall of Darth Vader
Vader also knows that the Emperor is toying with Luke. He has been told by the Emperor, ‘When he starts to strike me, you’re going to have to take him out.’ If Vader doesn’t block Luke’s lazer sword, the Emperor could just raise his hand and that would be the end of it. Then Vader would be in trouble: "Lord Vader, what happened to you? Did you not get your cue?"
George Lucas, The Making of Return of the Jedi
So. Has it sunken in yet? I have not presented quotes of the highest canonical authority. But a wealth of C-canon quotes stating that Vader, eve Vader + his equal and slight superior vs the Emperor would be one-sided stomp. The wealth of quotes presented here and more make clear Vader's place in the mythos.
So please tell me again of your 7 quotes. I've got 28.
Vader gets stomped. He is sub-TPM Kenobi and therefore sub Maul by a large margin.
Oh and Resurrection is non-canon even in Legends.
Image 1
Outweighed by all these and Lucas quote retcons it stating that even by ESB Vader is weakened
Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.
Geroge Lucas Empire Strikes Back Blu-Ray commentary
Dismissed by canon rules
Image 2
Likely only refers to mental fortitude. Either way retconned by the quotes below and Lucas statement supersedes it by canon rules. Dismissed.
Image 3
No evidence it refers to Anakin. Regularly Anakin and Vader are separated. Either way retconned by the quotes below and Lucas statement supersedes it by canon rules. Dismissed.
Ben was still clutching his lightsaber when he reached an access tunnel that led back to Docking Bay 327. As he entered the tunnel, he sighted a tall, shadowy form at the tunnel's other the end. Even if Ben had never seen Darth Vader's cybernetic incarnation via a HoloNet broadcast on Tatooine, he still would have sensed the power of his former apprentice, now concealed within black armor.
The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi
Ben recognizing that the power is Anakin doesn't mean it's the same magnitude. Either way retconned by the quotes below and Lucas statement supersedes it by canon rules. Dismissed.
Kenobi gauged the shrinking distance between the oncoming troops and himself, then turned a pitying gaze on Vader. "This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words."
A New Hope
Kenobi's opinion. Nothing more. Either way retconned by the quotes below and Lucas statement supersedes it by canon rules. Dismissed.
Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was he even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground ... but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.
Return of the Jedi
Vader being amped by the Emperors presense means nothing. Also remember Vader and Anakin are separate. Hence why the phrase "he becomes Anakin again" is always used. Vader is a separate person and therefore quotes of this nature do not apply. Either way retconned by the quotes below and Lucas statement supersedes it by canon rules. Dismissed.
Now let's clear this.
RotJ Luke and Vader are equals. This is undeniable.
Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.
Beware the Sith
By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan’s journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would be nearly impossible for most, but Skywalker’s unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star.”
Fightsaber
Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers.
Jedi Battles
The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match.
Fact File 111
Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious than the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.
RotJ script
On the Death Star, Luke and Darth Vader were engaged in a duel that was even more vicious than their battle on Cloud City. Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter, and his skill with his lightsaber had improved greatly. As they swung at each other in the Emperor’s throne room, Luke sensed the advantage had shifted to him.
RotJ Junior Novel
For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
RotJ Novel
On the Death Star, father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man. But unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon-freezing chamber of Bespin's Cloud City, this is a battle of equals. The young Jedi has grown in the interim, and if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him.
RotJ Comic
As father and son faced each other in a lightsaber duel, it was clear that the younger man had now developed powers that equaled his father’s
Fact File 5
So RotJ Luke = Vader.
In fact. Luke is better than Vader really. Considering he's winning while holding back
The battle between Luke and Vader raged throughout the throne room. Vader pressed the attack at every turn, but Luke held back, even ducking beneath a shadowed staircase when the fighting grew too intense.
Vader The Ultimate Guide
Luke tried to avoid the fight, and only struck back in self-defense.
The Complete Star Wars Trilogy Scrapbook
But if the son holds any reluctance at the clash, the father seemingly does not! Darth Vader presses forward.
Return of the Jedi comic
On the Death Star, father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man.
Return of the Jedi comic
Luke stands up to Vader's full powers while holding back and is winning. So therefore Luke is comparable to the Emperor right?
Well
The second father-son duel took place on Emperor Palpatine’s second Death Star. Now more able to control the Force, Luke Skywalker was finally able to defeat his powerful father. But he was no match for the evil Emperor.
Secrets of the Sith
Still lying against the bridge railing beside the elevator shaft, Vader watched the Emperor extend his gnarled fingers and unleash blinding bolts of blue lightning from his fingertips. The lightning struck Luke, who tried to deflect the crackling bands of energy, but was so overwhelmed that his body crumpled to the floor.
Rise and Fall of Darth Vader
Infuriated by Luke’s resilience against the dark side, the Emperor unleashed a deadly torrent of dark side lightning. Skywalker was powerless to resist the onslaught, and his life was fast draining away.
Fact File 120
Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling . . . Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain.
RotJ scripts
Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke’s inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.
Star Wars Insider 86
Luke attempted to absorb the Emperor’s Force lightning "but was so overwhelmed” and “powerless” he crumbled to the floor. As the Return of the Jedi novelization and script portray, this is clearly a pitting of Luke’s Force energy against the Emperor’s. The text further notes the Emperor continually intensified his Force lightning after overpowering Luke. This performance by Luke directly demonstrates how Vader would ordinarily fare against the Emperor - near-instantly overwhelmed against but a taste of his dark side powers.
In fact let's see Vader and Vader+Luke be faced off against the Emperor
My sense of the relationship is that the Emperor is much more powerful than Vader and that Vader is very much intimidated by him. Vader has dignity, but the Emperor In Jedi really has all the power."
"I didn't want Vader to be all-powerful. In the first film it was very easy to make him into some kind of superhero. But I decided not to do that.
Lawrence Kasdan and George Lucas, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplay
Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever know.
Vader The Ultimate Guide
But because Palpatine was so incredibly powerful, and despite several attempts, Vader learned that he had no reason to believe he could ever defeat the elder Sith Lord.
Rise and Fall of Darth Vader
Vader, who was all too aware of the Sith “rule of two” that mandated a single master and single apprentice at any time, had his own designs on Luke. Palpatine’s omniscience, however, had changed the rules of engagement. Vader no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before.
Vader The Ultimate Guide
And let's dwell on this one for a bit and remember that Palpatine TP oneshot Vader from across the galaxy shall we
Boarding his shuttle, he ordered the pilot to lift off. A pity, my son, he thought. You could have joined me and together... we could have destroyed the Emperor and ruled the galaxy in his place. As he stared at the severed appendage in his hands, a sudden flash of insight struck the Dark Lord, realization dawning like the sunrise of Bespin. Perhaps, if you will not be turned, little Jedi, a suitable substitute may be arranged.
Suddenly, Vader was struck to his knees by the horribly powerful voice that rolled like fiery thunder through his brain. The pilots struggled vainly to ignore the Dark Lord's... discomfort. "Yes, my servant," the voice boomed in his mind, dripping raw evil. "Come to Mount Tantiss, immediately. I shall meet you there, and we will discuss my new trophy."
"Yes...my Master," Vader gasped, feeling an icy stab of dread in his soul, as the Emperor's mocking chuckle still echoed in his mind. His Master had detected his rebellious thoughts. This discussion would be most unpleasant. Most unpleasant indeed.
Clone B-2332-54
But they're totes equals right Mygod?
Let's keep going
Vader grimaced. A year had passed since his last encounter with Luke Skywalker on Cloud City, where he had revealed his identity to Luke and told him it was his destiny to destroy the Emperor. Vader suspected that the Emperor knew of this treachery, for the Emperor knew everything eventually. But even if the Emperor were aware of all that had transpired, Vader was certain he would not feel threatened. The Emperor was simply too powerful.
Rise and Fall of Darth Vader
Vader also knows that the Emperor is toying with Luke. He has been told by the Emperor, ‘When he starts to strike me, you’re going to have to take him out.’ If Vader doesn’t block Luke’s lazer sword, the Emperor could just raise his hand and that would be the end of it. Then Vader would be in trouble: "Lord Vader, what happened to you? Did you not get your cue?"
George Lucas, The Making of Return of the Jedi
So. Has it sunken in yet? I have not presented quotes of the highest canonical authority. But a wealth of C-canon quotes stating that Vader, eve Vader + his equal and slight superior vs the Emperor would be one-sided stomp. The wealth of quotes presented here and more make clear Vader's place in the mythos.
So please tell me again of your 7 quotes. I've got 28.
Vader gets stomped. He is sub-TPM Kenobi and therefore sub Maul by a large margin.
why ask me to post Link if you were just going to ignore them anyway? I told you that George Lucas changed his mind on all that which is why he updated it saying Vader can kill him just in an unexpected way.
"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan.”
Source: George Lucas, The Last Battle
Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader's legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing. His dark side training was just beginning. But Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will. Self-restraint was praised by the Jedi only because they didn't know the power of the dark side. Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself, to confront all his choices and his disappointments.
Powered by treachery, the Sith Master-apprentice relationship was always a dangerous game. Trust was encouraged even while being sabotaged; loyalty was demanded even while betrayal was prized; suspicion was nourished even while honesty was praised.
In some sense, it was survival of the fittest.
Fundamental to Vader's growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.
Had Vader killed Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he might have attempted to kill Sidious, as well. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn't made an attempt. Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need to do everything in his power to shake Vader out of his despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him.
Even at Sidious's own peril...
Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader
According to George Lucas and Sidious, Vader problem wasn't anything physical but psychological, and that Sith power resided in the Will, not the flesh.
When you posted that stuff from George Lucas about the "super energy" you forgot to mention that Vader was at the Weakest he had ever been. In the Rise of Darth Vader stated: that Vader would need to overcome his Weakness, Driven deeper into himself, to confront all his Choices and his Disappointments.
Furthermore, it says that Sidious understands that he would need to do everything in his power to shake Vader out of his despair, and Reawaken the incredible power within Him...even at Sidious's own peril...
That is exactly what Sidious did in return of the Jedi, where Vader focuses solely on Killing Palpatine, and not about his weakness because Sidious made him come face to face with all his choice when his Son begged him for help.
All your sources are old and outdated, George Lucas changed his mind and updated his canon.
I'm done debating, you kinda lost because you said Vader couldn't kill him, and then you posted a quote from GL saying that Vader can him just in an unexpected way. George Lucas even said Vader was rival to Sidious power. in another, it stated in Vader own thoughts that Sidious might have gotten more powerful than he ever has been which is why he didn't challenge him outright because every time he got stronger Sidious got more powerful.
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