Darth Maul vs Count Dooku vs Darth Vader.

Yes, and thanks. I replied to you and am awaiting your response.

However, above I asked what DT meant.

Suit Vader's prime in Legends is the DT era

Can you please tell me?

@redheathen: Dark Times.

@redheathen: Also I responded to the PM.

@frozen: Why do you think that Dark Times is prime Vader?

Clearly, a whole lot depends on the source. However, Count Dooku should hold the advantage in old legends EU, whereas Vader reigns supreme in canon EU. In the films, it's Count Dooku, and in TCW/Rebels, it's either Dooku or Vader.

@w4nkdestroy

I'm pretty sure this is TPM Maul

"And are you ever going to respond to our Lucas debate"

I told you to take it as a concession, can't be bothered debating you on that quote you won't ever change your mind, also hurry up and reply to Redguardian.

@w4nkdestroyer2:

Regarding the first scan, it was obviously worded in a way which favored Vader (prepared and/or powered up). We don't know whether Maul was simply prepared, or powered up to face Vader based off that. Luckily, we have another quote from the same author confirming Maul was not amped:

Prepared/power up to face Vader is a pretty simple question , and the answer is also simple , maul was amped

The other quote is not reffering to power up to face Vader , but to whether Vader was weakened via Nexus or maul was amped via nexus

Cloaked66: Maul and the Prophets agreed that Vader had too much of the light in him, and yet, they were fighting in a Dark Side Nexus. Would that mean Maul was massively power boosted, by the prophets and the planet's Nexus, while Vader was actually weaker because of it?

Ron Marz: You're overthinking it a bit at this point. I'm glad you're engaged in the story, but ultimately it's just a story

Regarding the second scan, the inquirer was simply wondering what the Prophets were saying, not if Vader could actually beat them. In fact, in the above conversation with the author, he even says it's hypothetical. I italicized it for you. Neither of your points hold any merit

Cloaked66:1: If Vader attacked Maul with The Force to toss, shove or choke him would he just kill him like it was implied?

2: Did Maul held advantage on dueling because of his better mobility and preparation, meaning he exploited Vader's weakness?

Also sorry for being annoying

Ron Marz:1) Hypothetical, so we really don't know.

2) Yes, Maul had better mobility, whereas Vader is like a tank.

https://twitter.com/LoCabbage/status/1227289825604227073

he says its hypothetical , so neither a no or yes

And as confirmed by himself

Per Dark side prophets

In force - Vader > amped maul + the Dark side prophets > Amped maul

@w4nkdestroyer2:

"That wasn't directed to you"

Alright lol, thought you were talking to me.

@w4nkdestroyer2:

The question was is Maul prepared and/orpowered up. We don't know if Maul was only prepared, or powered up, or both.

The man asking the question asks both the questions and the writer said yes to both of em , so yes , he was prepared and powered up to fight Vader .

As I showed earlier, the author dismissed the idea Maul was amped, stating he was only prepared to fight Vader

He didn't dismiss the idea , he dismissed the idea maul was being amped and Vader was being weakened via a dark side nexus and he just said " you are overthinking " , he didn't even dismiss the idea .

That's what the power up is referring to, Maul being amped by the nexus. It's not just some arbitrary power boost. Though again, the author said he was overthinking it, which means he was not amped

Maul was not amped by Dark side and Vader was not hindered let's assume that's true , that doesn't contradict the idea that the Dark Side Prophets Powered up maul to face Vader .

Right, and we know Vader can't because he used the Force during the fight anyway.

Right , and we also know Vader was dualing for most of the fight and can defeat the entire Dark Side Prophets cult and Maul at once via his force prowess .

He was mostly dualing and maul have an advantage due to some factors when it come to dualing

2: Did Maul held advantage on dueling because of his better mobility and preparation, meaning he exploited Vader's weakness?

2) Yes, Maul had better mobility, whereas Vader is like a tank.

https://twitter.com/LoCabbage/status/1227289825604227073

He's not confirming the prophets theory that Vader could beat them all with the Force, he's confirming what the prophets are saying: that it could be possible for Vader to beat them all with the Force.

He is confirming that the prophets and maul can battle Vader at once with Force , and Vader would have chances of winning as the prophets said

@w4nkdestroyer2: tbh I can’t really be bothered to write out a massive long reply to your comment. It’s not a concession I just don’t have much free time these days.

But as a brief overview, I believe I got most of my points across already in my previous replies, which I still stand by. And I don’t accept many of your counter arguments.

It frustrates me that you have selected one G canon quote to base your entire argument around and it doesn’t even say what you think it does. Lucas quotes should be taken with a grain of salt because they contradict each other all the time. For example he’s said before, when referring to the fighting of Luke and Vader compared to Maul and Qui-gon and Kenobi. “I was looking for a style that was reminiscent of what came before, but a faster paced version. We’ve never actually seen real Jedi fight before, we’ve only ever seen cripples half robots and young boys who have learnt from these old people.” Which heavily implies that TPM Maul and Qui-gon and Kenobi >> Vader or Luke or Ben. So when equating that to the quote you use that supposedly says Maul and Vader and Dooku are equal (which it doesn’t) then we get contradictory chains such as TPM Maul > Qui-Gon >> Vader = TPM Maul > Qui-Gon

You just pick and choose a quote you want that fits your narrative that Maul > Dooku, and then interpret it in such a way as to support you.

So I don’t believe I’m ever going to change your mind because you’ve already made your mind up, rendering debating with you somewhat pointless, especially when your mind has been made up surrounding what I believe to be a flawed narrative.

To me it’s clear that Dooku > TCW Maul > TPM Maul, that’s where I stand, and nothing you’ve said to me has changed my mind. I can go as far as to say that TCW Maul could give Dooku a good challenge, but that’s as far as it goes for me.

@macattack1:

Which heavily implies that TPM Maul and Qui-gon and Kenobi >> Vader or Luke or Ben

I mean some people do unironically use that quote to argue this.

@frozen: I know. My point is that Lucas has quotes that constantly contradict each other, and the source material,

The Lucas quote supremacy system has been thrown out anyway.

They're still useful regarding the characters as of the events of the movies, but they're not supreme in that they overrule everything. Leland Chee, the creator and overseer of the old G canon system stated this.

I'll summarise the new tweets from Leland Chee.

1. Disney acquired Lucasfilm in 2012
2. Pre disney content wasn't branded as Legends until 2014
3. That left a 2 year gap of pre canon material. In this period, Chee said they moved away from the G canon system to accommodate other creators. The G canon system was thrown out and no longer in effect. They even had a different internal referencing system as early as 2011

Gallery

Vader is the most powerful here, Dooku is the most skilled. However, Vader has experience with Dooku's fighting style, and his hybrid form should be more difficult for Dooku to counter. Likewise, Dooku won't be able to do significant amounts of damage before Vader eventually exhausts him or breaks through his defences with sheer strength or power. Maul is more of a nuisance to the duo, but can win if he plays it smart.

Backing Vader for a slight majority.

@frozen: tell that to wankdestroyer lol

@w4nkdestroyer2:

Maul being prepared and/or powered up isn't two separate questions, it's one question.

Its the part of the same question , to which their was a positive response .

The first question is if "Darth Maul was brought back specifically to kill Vader and replace him as Darth Sidious apprentice right?" The second question is "So was Maul prepared and/or powered up to duel Vader

I do not need your help reading w4nk , but thanks for Explaining it , even if it's unnecessary .

The author answers yes to the first question, meaning that Maul was brought back to kill Vader and replace him. He also says yes to the second question, which asks if Maul was prepared and/orpowered up. Based on the orwe don't know whether or not Maul was prepared, or powered up, or maybe even both due to the and. However as I showed, the author dismissed the idea of Maul being amped later on in the same conversation. So the yes is referring to the idea that Maul was prepared to fight Vader.

The author only is " dismissive of the idea that maul is amped because of an" dark side nexus " and Vader's light is hindering him in combat , which is something that the writers say is just giving too much thought into the plot , he is not saying " no " but rather saying that the fan shouldn't give it so much thought because he most probably didn't either .

Right, so Maul wasn't powered up if he wasn't amped by the nexus

He was powered up by the Dark Prophets just so he can have a battle against Vader , not that he was amped via a dark side nexus .

That is dismissing the idea

Again , he would dismiss the idea if he said " no " , he didn't say no , but that " it's just a story and you are giving it too much thought "

Are you new to Star Wars? Just curious.

Not really .

The "power up" the initial question is referring to is in reference to the dark side nexus, not a power up received from the Prophets.

Except it is not , he asked if maul was prepared or powered up to have a battle with Vader , where the answer was yes , it's a pretty open and shut case , the nexus question comes later .

Why would the Prophets give Maul a power up if they were so confident Maul would beat Vader anyways?

Because they intended to power maul up for his battle with Vader .

We actually, don't know that, since it was a hypothetical. We can make a logical assumption and say he cannot though based on the fact that Vader was willing to use the Force in his fight with Maul, but couldn't use it on him directly as the Prophets thought

Tanks usually win by Overpowering the other , maul on this was faster then Vader and more mobile , anyone fast enough could jump around a tank like Vader for a decent while , same for Ashoka

He's not confirming Vader was going to win or has a chance of winning as the Prophets thought, he was clarifying what the Prophets were saying, but that doesn't make it true

Vader's competence in the force is far superior to his in Sabers , also that the dark prophets who were confident maul would win even after seeing Vader fight back

were not so confident that they could survive if Vader destroy them with the force

He also had to use the emperor as a reason to practically play Vader to the psychological corner and make him use the Sabers only against maul , he didn't even say there would be a fight in force , he just said he could try to destroy them all ( where they stand ) in force , and he may as well be successful in doing that .

@w4nkdestroyer2:

Do you know how English works?

Indeed , most probably better then people who take quotes with " Like " as " equal to " or quotes saying " epic " " furious " to " everyone is giving their full effort "

The word ormeans one of the two things happens. So either Maul wasprepared, or he was powered up, we don't know based off his answer there.

He said " yes " and the man put a slash between the " prepared " and " or " as you can see , being prepared would also be an amp , as would be being powered up , because all the dark prophets did was Ressurect maul going by the interpretation that maul was not amped , but prepared to face Vader would also mean he would be specifically designed to face Vader .

Clearly you do

Ad Hominem ? The only thing I see as clear from your side is that you have already lost the debate .

Right, and if the author didn't take it into account, then it's meaningless.

What I said is that the author did not say no but said it's overthinking and it's just a story , logically one could argue Vader was weakened while maul was amped because of the DarkSide nexus

The fact that maul and prophets , both mention the light in Vader and the darkness in maul , fight on darkside nexus e.t.c.

You don't get powered up by somebody else lol. The power up is referring to the nexus

Yes you do , even in canon if someone is willingly ready to give their power in force or Dualing to someone else , they can

" Though she drew strength from her son, she could not resist the power of Darth Sidious and Count Dooku combined."

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #70 (Relaunched)

Outright saying "no" is not the only way to dismiss an idea, you do know that right?

Saying " you are overthinking it , it's just a story " isn't dismissal either , you know that right ?

There are ofcourse more ways of dismissing an idea .

Ok so you're just a few clowns short of a circus then?

Again, ormeans one thing happens. Maul can either be prepared orpowered up, not both. And based on the author's answer which was "yes", we don't know if he was saying yes to Maul being prepared or powered up.

Both would end up being amps , which would be supported by the narrative and prior scalings .

Buddy, the nexus question is related to the power up question, as that is where Maul's power up is derived from.

Prove it then ?

Ok? That doesn't take away from the fact that Vader also had advantages over Maul.

> Vader isn't using force because of some sloppy narrative reasoning .

And then maul is the worst kind of opponent for him with his speed

Vader's advantage comes against people like Dooku , not maul .

That was before the fight started lol

Yes , what's your point ?

Except that makes zero sense, because Sidious actually hates lightsabers, and much prefers using the Force. Hence why he dropped his sabers after the prequel trilogy

Like I said , sloppy narrative reasoning , ask the writer why he wrote the story badly

Vader stomps.

@aryan87: Vader doesn't use the Force because of his pride. Doing so would be admitting that he's unworthy to replace Maul, and that he can't beat him without relying on the one thing he knows he's stronger/better in. He wants to prove that he's better in every way that matters, which - especially given Maul's well-known nature as a martial fighter - includes saber combat.

For the record Vader was incapable of rag dolling Maul inResurrection:

The "might" is in reference to him killing Maul plus the Prophets, not Maul alone. Their acknowledgement of him being able to do this and having a good chance of doing it, as well as their use of psychological manipulation to remove his use of offensive Force attacks helps consolidate the "might" with this heavy implication that he's above Maul in power.

The prophet says that Vader ragdolling them instead of killing Maul in a duel would make the Emperor think less of Vader. But: Palpatine despises lightsaber dueling, and thinks it's a mere "Jedi game:"

Maul arranged the entire fight to test whether Vader was still of use to him. Vader at this point had declined to the point that Sidious now viewed him as "broken", "crippled" and "pathetic", and wanted to test whether he was superior in all regards to a former Sith. That's why he pitted him against a martial fighter in Maul.

Also, Sidious doesn't think lightsaber combat is beneath Vader, Dooku or Maul. He thinks it's beneath him. It's why he instructed Vader in building his new lightsaber, and even encouraged it, providing the crystal and his own lightsaber as an example:

Extending his right arm, he took hold of the lightsaber and turned it about in his hand. Just three standard weeks old, assembled—as Sidious had wished—in the shadow of the moonlet-size terror weapon he was having constructed, it had now tasted first blood. Sidious had provided the synthcrystal responsible for the crimson blade, along with his own lightsaber to serve as a model. Vader, though, had no fondness for antiques, and while he could appreciate the handiwork that had gone into fashioning the inlaid, gently curved hilt of Sidious’s lightsaber, he prefered a weapon with more ballast.

Determined to please his Master, he had tried to create something novel, but had ended up fashioning a black version of the lightsaber he had wielded for more than a decade, with a thick, ridged handgrip, high-output diatium power cell, dual-phase focusing crystal, and forward-mounted adjustment knobs. Down to the beveled emitter shroud, the hilt mimicked Anakin’s.

Sidious has never viewed lightsaber combat as beneath his apprentices. If he did, he wouldn't have personally trained Maul in it, nor would he have ordered Vader to construct a lightsaber or how to construct it, and he definitely wouldn't have helped him to do so.

Also, the Empire was strained- the Rebels had stolen the Death Star plans, and it was the Empire's priority to retrieve them. Vader was the most powerful field agent- Palpatine wouldn't like him wasting his time in duels against other Force-wielders if he can just instakill them with the Force.

Again: Sidious set up the test. You seem to forget that Palpatine loves to test Vader and his other apprentices.

"Powered up" doesn't actually mean amped, and certainly not in a casual conversation, to a non-versus-debater. That's why the user chose such vague wording, so he could still get a seemingly favourable reply from the author without risking anything. All his questions are from a Vader camp slant. Likewise, prepared means nothing. 99% of duels involve prepared fighters. If Maul was unprepared and still beat down Vader, it'd be an embarrassment. Vader wasn't ambushed, and knew what he was getting in to. Both were prepared, and powered up. That's the normal state of people about to fight.

Fact is, no one was asking how a fight between an unknowably amped Maul vs Vader would go. Maul being amped completely defeats the purpose of the comic.The debate was how a fight to the death between Darth Maul and Darth Vader would go, and this what-if scenario comic was designed to settle the score:

I've never said he was amped. The only "amp" he had was intimate knowledge of ANH Vader's history, his cybernetics, the extent of them, and his weaknesses. Knowledge is half the battle, and Maul already had Vader far outclassed in that respect. A Maul on even ground where he can't change it to disadvantageous terrain for Vader wouldn't fare as well, and was only even with him when they fought on neutral ground beyond the first exchange.

I'm going to say that Dooku win this.

Don't get me wrong, Vader is the greatest threat here if he's allowed to catch his stride. But Dooku and Maul know this, and since Standard Knowledge is in play they should also know that he is vulnerable to force lightning.

Dooku will start the fight by hitting Vader with force lightning, this should put Vader out of action for a little while. Maul doesn't have any force lightning feats that I know of and so can't do the same. He will allow Dooku to do this but will then try a surprise attack while he is still occupied.

Dooku and Maul will then fight a 1v1 with Dooku coming out on top.

At this point Dooku will likely be too tired to risk close combat with Vader and so will elect to finish him off with force lightning from a distance.

Bump.

Vader > Dooku > Maul

Prolly Vader>Maul>Dooku

that marz tweet

@aryan87

it is difficult to understand what is being asked of marz. the question asked was maul "prepared" to meet vader. after the word prepared, it says "or powered up". it was given as "prepared or powered up" ... i read it as maul was prepared for battle and he had his powers. marz may have as well. i don't know how else to interpret it.

and there was no "amp". you inferred that:

Maul had to be powered up and amped to even match Vader in Sabers

you assume that "powered up" = "amped", which is an illogical conclusion. if you had said there was a possibility that marz intended that when he said "yes", then i would say it is illogical. i would say that sure, it could be a possibility, unlikely as it is considering how it was used in conjunction with "prepared". it's obvious maul was resurrected with his power and that he was prepared. i also argue against a sith being amped, and there is zero in the story that indicates the prophets gave maul a boost. if anything, they wanted maul as he was to prove that vader wasn't worthy of being the apprentice of sidious. why would they have gone through all the trouble of resurrecting someone from the dead and giving that person extra power when they could have used any dark acolyte and given them extra power? there is absolutely ZIP in "Resurrection" that backs this theory up. you have completely twisted these words and misunderstood marz' one word answer of "yep."

that question is followed up by another. the next one asks if vader was going to kill everybody, including maul. the answer was yes. of course it was yes. if vader won the duel, if he had defeated maul and not killed him with a lightsaber, then of course he would have killed him with the force because he would have proven superiority over maul. but that had not happened. it is a "what if" question because what is being asked never happened. i'm sure maul would have killed everyone there if he had walked away from his duel with vader.

the what-if scenario is a moot point because that is not what happened. if vader would have switched...look, these guys such as marz are asked leading questions and not reminded of things...if vader could have killed maul with the force instead of committing seppuku or just allowing maul to kill him...then wouldn't he have done that? maybe go back and ask marz that. actually, i think i will. yeah. i will do that next week. i'll get back to you. i'll also ask what was the point of the story otherwise. i'll also ask if he has changed his mind over years because i know he caught a lot of flak from maul-low ballers because of the result of the duel. i'll try to ask with detail in order to eliminate anyone having a problem with what i ask or what he says-avoiding any problem with interpretation.

you have to temper this with the fact that by the age of 22, maul was one of the most highly trained, skilled, and deadly sith in the entire history of the jedi order, and he had been trained in "all ways of the sith". he was "second perhaps only to sidious" with a lightsaber, and he didn't need to have the prophets give him more power.

canon vader, though...yeah. no question. legends vader, it is a definitely possibility for maul to defeat him in a duel. vader should still win, in my own personal opinion, but this fight was raised from non-canon to c canon and is just as valid as any other c canon source.

ah, i forgot to add that before the tweets above were made, i tweeted marz. i think in 2017 or 2018. i asked for clarification of the fight and whether or not it was the real maul and not an illusion. marz confirmed it was maul. the "real" maul. he didn't say anything about them adding to maul's power. there was another tweet or reply that asked if maul was a clone or doppleganger, which i can't find, and marz said no.

it was maul the way he was prior to the naboo duel.

EDIT:

@w4nkdestroyer2 thank you for providing full context of that other tweet. i don't understand why it's hard for anyone to understand that marz is being very clear.

"RESURRECTION"

So I had to go back and find where the dark prophets said Force Vader > Maul + prophets, @aryan87. I see that you neglected to use one important word, which doesn't surprise me because you are cherry picking the tweets.

@breakofdawnTheir acknowledgement of him being able to do this and having a good chance of doing it, as well as their use of psychological manipulation to remove his use of offensive Force attacks helps consolidate the "might" with this heavy implication that he's above Maul in power.

I am a huge Vader fan. Vader is my absolute favorite character in SW and always has been from day one. He always will be. I am a fan of Maul, but he is not my number one and it's questionable if I'd put him in my top five. Here I am, though, again, taking up for him because he is grossly low-balled. I can't believe all the dedicated posts to this one word, "might". All the ones focused on this one story.

"Might" means maybe or maybe not. The prophets say maybe Vader can defeat us all, or maybe not. Period. Vader is smart enough to know if he is being manipulated. His entire life has been nothing but manipulation. He knows this. He recognizes it. It *pisses him off*, and anyone other than Sidious who does this is going to die unless Vader makes the decision to allow them to live for the time being. Vader didn't test their or his power because - regardless of what is said about the Emperor as yall focus on - Vader is going to want to see whether or not he can defeat Maul. There is zero implication that Vader is above Maul in power, let alone "heavy" implication.

For every source anyone can come up with about Vader, pro or con, I can come up with an equally valid one that counters it. I know Vader really well, as I do Maul. I know these two characters like the back of my hand. These are the two that I have spent years reading everything I could about them, even the obscure sources other than the DeAgostini stuff that has been showing up more and more over the past couple years-ironically that's mostly because of Ant. He was the first one to start posting them on CV. I know Vader is said to be hindered by his suit. I also know that Vader isn't hindered by his suit. I know Vader is said to be weakened in Legends because of his suit. The opposite is also said. If all sources are taken into consideration and if a person doesn't try to twist words with false supposition, Vader is going to defeat Maul. Vader will be more powerful than Maul, but not by a tremendous amount. Resurrected Maul isn't even prime Maul, and I have no idea why any of you are hung up on this story, which by the way, as a whole was never canon. The fight itself was made canon. The result of the fight was made canon. All these words that the prophets use were never canon. Not a single one of them. Frozen posted the rules in this thread that everything that was N canon is not allowed in this duel, so if we follow those rules, then I have no idea why any of you are wasting your time arguing them.

The real Maul in this story defeated Vader. Period. However, it doesn't matter because the way yall skew these words is overreaching, as even Marz touched upon in one of those tweets. The story is what it is. Maul won the duel but lost the fight because Vader's self hatred is greater than all of Maul's hatred. This is the point of the comic.

@uhu123:

environment where Vader would be unable to properly use his fighting style

Will you please explain to me how Vader's fighting style needs more room than Maul's fighting style?

The OP Duel

As I said in my first post in this thread:

Canon, no doubt Vader rolls over Dooku and Maul.

Legends, Vader wins, but it is very close. It's so close that I don't even know how to break it down, but Vader ultimately wins. Dooku will be the first to go. Vader and Maul will not fall because of lightning, and both Vader's and Maul's lightsaber forms are too much for Dooku.

Legends and Canon: Vader Prime > Maul Prime > Dooku Prime.

Arguments for these are concurrently taking place in other threads on here. I am trying to get back to the Maul v Dooku poll thread, and there I'll discuss M>D instead of posting in various places.

@redheathen: You are mistaken. Resurrections is not N canon. It is S canon. Therefore it happened.

Please elaborate.

@redheathen:Ok, let's look at this again:

I am a huge Vader fan. Vader is my absolute favorite character in SW and always has been from day one. He always will be. I am a fan of Maul, but he is not my number one and it's questionable if I'd put him in my top five. Here I am, though, again, taking up for him because he is grossly low-balled. I can't believe all the dedicated posts to this one word, "might". All the ones focused on this one story.

"Might" means maybe or maybe not. The prophets say maybe Vader can defeat us all, or maybe not. Period. Vader is smart enough to know if he is being manipulated. His entire life has been nothing but manipulation. He knows this. He recognizes it. It *pisses him off*, and anyone other than Sidious who does this is going to die unless Vader makes the decision to allow them to live for the time being. Vader didn't test their or his power because - regardless of what is said about the Emperor as yall focus on - Vader is going to want to see whether or not he can defeat Maul.

Maybe instead of decrying valid points as "lowballing", you should instead focus on actually refuting them properly. But fine, let's do it this way.

First, you've chosen to handwave the fact that the "might" isn't referring to whether Vader can defeat Maul with the Force or not. It's referring to whether he can defeat Maul plus the Prophets with the Force or not.

Said Prophets are part of a secret order recruited by Sidious. They're considerably powerful beings, each fully immersed in the Dark Side and possessing secrets that even Vader, with all of his knowledge and power, didn't know (such as resurrecting Maul). They're not weak by any stretch. Vader V.S Maul isn't what the quote is discussing. It's saying Vader "might" struggle to beat Maul and the Prophets, indicating that they're all factors.

There is zero implication that Vader is above Maul in power, let alone "heavy" implication.

To repeat myself:

Their acknowledgement of him being able to do this and having a good chance of doing it, as well as their use of psychological manipulation to remove his use of offensive Force attacks

You've said about them not being manipulated. They're one and the same. Manipulation isn't just persuading someone into a course of action they otherwise would never take. It's also fuelling a being's deeper desires by exploiting their insecurities. In this case, they did so by pointing out that Vader would always wonder who was better, and Sidious would be disappointed, something Vader agreed with and hence why he refrained from using the Force:

All you are doing is agreeing that the Prophets talked Vader out of trying to just ending the fight with the Force and instead engage in sabers, which they deemed a "challenge", unlike him just using the Force to kill him and/or the Prophets:

TLDR: The Prophets deliberately preyed upon Vader's insecurities and doubts - as instructed by Sidious, no doubt - to persuade him to prove he was the superior swordsman and thus superior in all regards.

Resurrected Maul isn't even prime Maul,

Nor is this close to prime Vader. He's years after the DT, and he's yet to go through some of the recovery he did that made him far more skilled and powerful as of ESB or ROTJ. The difference is that Vader's growth is well documented. Maul's growth , whilst indisputable, is a lot more debatable in its extensiveness.

and I have no idea why any of you are hung up on this story, which by the way, as a whole was never canon.

False. It was S-Canon.

The fight itself was made canon. The result of the fight was made canon. All these words that the prophets use were never canon. Not a single one of them.

I see. So you're doing what you accused Aryn of doing - cherrypicking - by claiming we should ignore "all these words that the Prophets use" whereas we should continue to use the fight itself.

The real Maul in this story defeated Vader. Period.

You're right, he did...with extensive prep, knowledge of everything about Vader, knowledge of the terrain, and by constantly switching up the terrain to ground that inconvenienced Vader. Since you've been extremely vocal about your knowledge of both Vader and Maul, I'm sure I don't need to tell you that this is very in-character for Maul, and a very notable weakness for Vader at this point in his life. However, if I do, I'd be happy to provide examples of ANH Vader's clunkiness and limited agility next to his DT self, or even his ROTJ self.

However, it doesn't matter because the way yall skew these words is overreaching, as even Marz touched upon in one of those tweets. The story is what it is. Maul won the duel but lost the fight because Vader's self hatred is greater than all of Maul's hatred. This is the point of the comic.

That's one interpretation. Here's another:

- Sidious set up the fight to test Vader after he came to view him as "crippled", "broken" and "less useful".

- Sidious instructed or helped the Prophets resurrect Maul, in the process providing him with the most intimate details regarding Vader, from his history to his cybernetics to his weaknesses.

- Sidious had Vader lured to the planet under false pretenses, where he was pressed into a challenge.

- The Prophets and Sidious, knowing Vader is a stronger Force user, acknowledge that Vader is capable of not just killing Maul with the Force, but also dispatching them at the same time. The "might" is referring to his ability to kill all of them right then and there, which is what the Prophets specify:

- In other words, Vader "might even succeed" in overpowering the combined strength of Maul and three Prophets, whom have immersed themselves in the Dark Side their entire lives and are privy to knowledge and power that not even Vader knows of.

- Vader and Maul duel, Maul lands two hits through Teras Kai by using his saberstaff to knock Vader off-balance. Vader overpowers him in a saber lock, the two duel evenly, Maul comments that he's holding his own, then changes it to terrain that hinders ANH Vader.

- The fight continues, during which Vader manipulates the environment rather than trying to attack Maul directly in order to force him to move. Maul lures him to a narrow island in the lava, where they fight. Maul lands a hit on Vader, pisses off Vader, then Vader dodges his hit, drives him back, and slices his saberstaff in half (a feat that not even a peer of Maul's in Jinn could accomplish). At this point, Maul uses Jar'Kai to outmanoeuvre Vader and defeat him.

In summary, your post hasn't helped your argument for any kind of parity between ANH Vader and TPM Maul in the Force. If anything, you've just helped up in clearing the confusion of the "might" by helping me to clarify that it's Maul plus three powerful Prophets that he "might" defeat all at once, not just Maul. All this does is indicate that it takes three Prophets and Maul's combined power to be a near-match for Vader, and even then he might overpower them all simultaneously.

Also, I shouldn't need to tell you this, but prime Maul is not above prime Dooku. Should you wish to CaV it or debate it normally, I'd be happy to do so.

@redheathen: Material that may cause problems for continuity but is not N-Canon is described as "S-Canon", or "Secondary Canon". Resurrection has been referenced at least twice in two editorial works (Insider and the Encyclopaedia), and the Prophets' existence in the same region as the one Resurrection is set in was canonised with Dark Forces, iirc.

@redheathen: The comic has been referenced in continuinity.

Please tell me where this about stuff referenced in continuity becoming S canon? Also, continuity was S and C canon. Are you saying that if an S canon source referenced N canon that it could also become S canon?

In addition to that, can you please provide a source that says that the entire N canon work and not solely the portion from the N canon work that is mentioned in continuity (be it S or C canon - determined once you reply) becomes part of continuity?

Not entirely sure what you're asking for.

I want you and @frozen to:

1. Tell me where it is said that something that was N canon (this stuff <-- wording I used above) but referenced in continuity becomes specifically S canon. Why do you two think this? What did you base this opinion on?

2. It was said by one of you that if N canon is published in continuity, then it became S canon. Based on that statement, I asked if you (whichever one who said it) are saying that if N canon is published in something that was S canon, then could it be brought out of N canon and placed into S canon. I ask this because continuity was both S and C canon. I am asking whether or not it matters that the publication source that mentions the N canon material is itself S or C canon.

3. Tell me where it is said that an entire story that was N canon becomes part of continuity when only something specific from/found within the story, not the entire story itself, was published in a continuity work.

EDITED to add "<-- wording I used above" in item number one.

In canon:

Vader > KnightFall Anakin > Dooku > Maul

In legends

Knightfall Anakin > Dooku > Vader > Maul

@redheathen:

it is difficult to understand what is being asked of marz. the question asked was maul "prepared" to meet vader. after the word prepared, it says "or powered up". it was given as "prepared or powered up" ... i read it as maul was prepared for battle and he had his powers. marz may have as well. i don't know how else to interpret it.

" Powered up " can mean That he was " ressurected " , but that's the same context as saying an electrical device have been " powered up " but maul himself was " powered up " in the sense he was prepared for the battle with Vader which made his power go up .

and there was no "amp". you inferred that:

Oh there almost was , the theory about it being a Darkside Nexus where one would be amped and other would be weakened would be an amp , the powered up one certainly is an amp and the fact he have " too much light In him " is mentioned many times as a negative for him and would make maul won the battle

So yes , my point about an amped maul being way below a vastly pre prime Vader in force does stand

Over time Vader has advanced in his ability to manipulate the dark side of the Force, and has used it to sustain his own damaged body as well as to persuade opponents of his will. Under the Emperor's tutelage, Vader learns to kill with mere suggestion.

- Star Wars Visual Dictionary

As Darth Sidious's apprentice, Vader continues to expand his knowledge and the power of the dark side.

-- Force And Destiny Core Rulebook

Even his own generals could not escape Vader's wrath, and as time went by, the Sith's powers grew even stronger.

-- The Story Of Darth Vader

"My Master seems pleased; his apprentice grows ever stronger."

-- Galactic Battlegrounds

Between Lord Vader and the Imperial Inquisitors (and a handful of independent Jedi Hunters), the dark side grew stronger and stronger.

Credit to Azronger

--The Dark Side Sourcebook

All his life he had been trained to turn fear into anger, and anger into power. It was no different, he realized, for Darth Vader. Where else could Lord Vader look for increased power than to the Emperor himself? People were either predators or prey. That was one of the most basic rules of life. Together, Darth Vader and his apprentice would ensure that their joint power only increased.

Credit to Azronger

-- The Force Unleashed

Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.

-- Insider #62

So I don't see what about my point have fallen so far

you assume that "powered up" = "amped", which is an illogical conclusion.

Its not when it is used in the same context as the word " prepared ", but this time is related to the power of Darth maul

if you had said there was a possibility that marz intended that when he said "yes", then i would say it is illogical. i would say that sure, it could be a possibility, unlikely as it is considering how it was used in conjunction with "prepared".

Its used in the same context as prepared and the exact same way , with the exception of it being related to Maul's power increasing , which it did .

it's obvious maul was resurrected with his power and that he was prepared.

And why Is it obvious that he should not be powered up ?

i also argue against a sith being amped,

Sith do gets amps tho

And with things like sith sorcery which is by extention Darkside sorcery , strange things are possible

The Darkside prophets can bring Maul back to life , I don't see why they could not enchance his Physical ability or Strengthen his connection to the force .

and there is zero in the story that indicates the prophets gave maul a boost.

The story has maul portrayed as a superior combatant when this very maul was struggling with Qui Gon and Obi Wan on Naboob

On Naboo , he was Only an equal of the Jedi when they were unprepared

With his double bladed lightsaber, Maul is the equal of two Jedi, who are unprepared for his powers.

Credit: The Ultimate Visual Guide

km Naboo , he was losing to qui Gon and Obi Wan after A staggering 50 seconds of fight

Just as I sensed that the creature was aware that Qui Gon and I would beat him, he found a way to divide us. Moments later, we were separated by laser doors in a security hallway.

Credit: Jedi vs Sith-The Essential Guide to the Force

He was also licking his wounds

Beyond, the Sith Lord worked at binding up his wounds, a series of burns and slashes marked by charred tears in his dark clothing. He was backed to the edge of the chamber beyond, keeping a close watch on Qui-Gon, his red and black face intense, his yellow eyes glinting in the half light. His lightsaber rested on the floor before him.

Credit: The Phantom Menace Novel

He was scared of Qui Gon when he was meditating , he was being driven back by Qui Gon solo and he was uncertain if he would win or he would die

He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.

Credit: The Phantom Menace

And all of this happened on a dark side Nexus

“On my first visit to your homeworld I recognized it as a nexus in the Force. And I remember thinking how appropriate it was that the dark side should be hiding on such a beautiful planet.”

Credit: Darth Plagueis

Qui Gon alone holds his own against him for 30 seconds and then a minute for two different times

Even Obi Wan matched maul at one point

Boiling anger blurred his vision. He hated Bruck as he had hated no living creature. Anger drove out the Force completely, leaving him in a vacuum that he filled with his rage.

-

Frustration and irritation surged inside him, driving out his connection to the Force.

-

Obi Wan tried to use his grief at the loss of his Master, Qui Gon Jinn to fuel his own attack. However, it is not the Jedi way to act on emotions or to seek revenge. This causes the Jedi to lose focus, which can have disastrous consequences in battle.

Obi Wan's anger led him to lose his cool, as he launched a vicious assault against Darth Maul. The Sith took advantage of Obi Wan's unfocused rage, using the Force push to throw him over an abyss.

-

I gave in to my anger, Master.

....

And almost defeated you your anger did.

-

The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow.

Never! he swore furiously.

Qui-Gon's words came back to him. Don't center on your fears. Concentrate on the here and now. He struggled to do so, to contain the emotions warring within and bearing him down. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan. Be strong.

Your rage has unbalanced you. That is not the Jedi way, is it?

His rage also blurred his vision while weakening his connection to the light

The last year's of EU had multiple quotes of suit Vader supremacy over some of his younger versions

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.

--Insider 62

More powerful in the Force than ever before as well as a master of the lightsaber, Darth Vader prepares for his final battle as the Rebel fleet hammers the fully operational Death Star

- -- Darth Vader Return Of Anakin Skywalker

As shown , his feats alone prove it , because Vader is far above Qui Gon and a young Padawan Obi Wan Kenobi

If anything, they wanted maul as he was to prove that vader wasn't worthy of being the apprentice of sidious.

They say that because Vader have far too much light in him and is , thus , not worthy of being the apprentice of the most powerful Sith Lord and dark side user of all time arguably

Their hatred for Vader arises from the fact that deep down he still have far too much light in him

why would they have gone through all the trouble of resurrecting someone from the dead and giving that person extra power when they could have used any dark acolyte and given them extra power?

They can't just power up someone to be skilled enough like maul or have a Saber to Saber advantage like maul does , also nothing says they can just amp people to that level , they took a force sensitive maul to resurrect and then amp him to a level where he can have a battle with Vader

there is absolutely ZIP in "Resurrection" that backs this theory up. you have completely twisted these words and misunderstood marz' one word answer of "yep."

I have not twisted anything really , it's you who wants to twist everything in the WOG and the comic to be in favour of Maul.

that question is followed up by another. the next one asks if vader was going to kill everybody, including maul. the answer was yes. of course it was yes.

Didn't you just accuse me of " twisting words and misinterpretating tweets " ? As w4nk " I use Ad Hominem every debate and act racist and biphobic " destroyer posted

Cloaked66: About Ressurrection, Darth Maul was brought back specifically to kill Vader and replace him as Darth Sidious apprentice right? So was Maul prepared and/or powered up to duel Vader?

Ron Marz: Yes and Yes.

Cloaked66: Maul and the Prophets agreed that Vader had too much of the light in him, and yet, they were fighting in a Dark Side Nexus. Would that mean Maul was massively power boosted, by the prophets and the planet's Nexus, while Vader was actually weaker because of it?

Ron Marz: You're overthinking it a bit at this point. I'm glad you're engaged in the story, but ultimately it's just a story.

Cloaked66:And I understand that, but the thing is that it caused many controversies between fans, specially because many things in the EU that came after it changed the way of viewing that story completely, so I wanted to use your explanation to make things clearer.

Ron Marz: Not sure what came after it; I have no control over that, so it does not play any part in my story.

Cloaked66:But when talking about Ressurrection, plot-wise, was Vader nerfed by the circumstances or not?

Ron Marz: He won, so apparently not.

Cloaked66:Ron, I just have two last questions about Ressurrection for you, it seems that your answers created a pretty big tumult in the forum in which people were talking about that. May I ask them?

Ron Marz:Yes, but these are the last two, please.

Cloaked66:1: If Vader attacked Maul with The Force to toss, shove or choke him would he just kill him like it was implied?

2: Did Maul held advantage on dueling because of his better mobility and preparation, meaning he exploited Vader's weakness?

Also sorry for being annoying

Ron Marz:1) Hypothetical, so we really don't know.

2) Yes, Maul had better mobility, whereas Vader is like a tank.

The next question after this is directly about Whether Vader and maul had the effects of the Dark side nexus on them .

if vader won the duel, if he had defeated maul and not killed him with a lightsaber, then of course he would have killed him with the force because he would have proven superiority over maul. but that had not happened. it is a "what if" question because what is being asked never happened. i'm sure maul would have killed everyone there if he had walked away from his duel with vader.

The prophets say Vader can destroy them and maul , right then and there , with force , and have a good chance of succeeding and that happened before the battle , I don't know why you think it's saying " if he had won the dual , he would kill him with the force "

the what-if scenario is a moot point because that is not what happened.

Its not an " what if " scenario , when a dark side prophet , Who is almost completely certain that Maul would win the fight , says that Vader can destroy all of them + maul right there and can succeed in doing that as well .

if vader would have switched...look, these guys such as marz are asked leading questions and not reminded of things...if vader could have killed maul with the force instead of committing seppuku or just allowing maul to kill him...

Its explained why Vader have to dual maul

• If he switches to force when someone challenges him for a dual , The emperor would not like that and be furious with Vader
• Vader himself would never know if maul was his superior as a dualist or not .

Then wouldn't he have done that? maybe go back and ask marz that.

I sadly don't have the time to do that.....but perhaps and I already explained why he wouldn't

actually, i think i will. yeah. i will do that next week. i'll get back to you. i'll also ask what was the point of the story otherwise. i'll also ask if he has changed his mind over years because i know he caught a lot of flak from maul-low ballers because of the result of the duel. i'll try to ask with detail in order to eliminate anyone having a problem with what i ask or what he says-avoiding any problem with interpretation.

Huh ? Best of luck with that

you have to temper this with the fact that by the age of 22, maul was one of the most highly trained, skilled, and deadly sith in the entire history of the jedi order, and he had been trained in "all ways of the sith". he was "second perhaps only to sidious" with a lightsaber, and he didn't need to have the prophets give him more power.

And for Vader

More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his Mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking–the power of life over death. There would be no need to fear Vader.

-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader

Darth Vader was one of the most deadly Sith apprentices ever.

-- Star Wars: Sith Wars

Clad in flowing black robes, protective armor, and a grotesque, combined breath mask and helmet, the imposing figure of Darth Vader was feared throughout the Empire. Utterly ruthless, his Sith powers made him virtually invincible.

-- Star Wars Fact File 3

canon vader, though...yeah. no question.

Yeah , it's really not that debateable with stuff like

legends vader, it is a definitely possibility for maul to defeat him in a duel. vader should still win, in my own personal opinion,

Good that we are in agreement then

but this fight was raised from non-canon to c canon and is just as valid as any other c canon source.

So ? The fight have lots of context even without marz's quote and can only be used to evaluate the Saber skills of maul and Vader in comparasion .

ah, i forgot to add that before the tweets above were made, i tweeted marz. i think in 2017 or 2018. i asked for clarification of the fight and whether or not it was the real maul and not an illusion. marz confirmed it was maul. the "real" maul. he didn't say anything about them adding to maul's power. there was another tweet or reply that asked if maul was a clone or doppleganger, which i can't find, and marz said no.

The comic is called ressurection , so obviously it would be the real maul , they literally bring the real maul back to life , not make a clone , doesn't mean they cannot increase his power .

it was maul the way he was prior to the naboo duel.

His feats and niether do the statements suggest he is equal to that version of maul from what I can see.

So I had to go back and find where the dark prophets said Force Vader > Maul + prophets,@aryan87. I see that you neglected to use one important word, which doesn't surprise me because you are cherry picking the tweets.

No , I don't think I did