Seen as though the pre Disney acquisition LFL hierarchy system (G canon, C canon etc) is no longer compulsory, it will not apply here. Therefore, G canon will not have supremacy. Although Lucas is still a filmmaker so his WoG can apply when it pertains to his own films, but not the wider verse
In Legends, sources can be weighed equally but given that CV is a feats oriented website, it can be assumed that people will debate on who has the better feats. That said, scaling chains, in universe logic/intent and accolades can still counter balance
In case it isn't obvious, content such as lego SW, alternate endings/DLC, crossovers with other universes, infinites etc aren't allowed
@thunderbolt57: Hey OP, just letting you know I edited your OP to post a disclaimer on the Legends round - given the recent news that G canon is no longer supreme.
Reasoning? There are multiple legends quotes placing Vader's prime as ROTJ.
BreakOfDawn did a good breakdown on why DT is prime. I'll see if I can find it.
The issue with ROTJ being prime is you would also have to subscribe to the idea that ROTJ is > KFV. I've seen many try to claim KFV is prime yet simultaneously use quotes from before the prequel trilogy to scale suit Vader.
@thunderbolt57: Hey OP, just letting you know I edited your OP to post a disclaimer on the Legends round - given the recent news that G canon is no longer supreme.
@eredin12: Could you post the quotes of Suit Vader being prime in Legends again?
I know of one from Jedi Battles 2013 and a 2012 ROTJ Vader toy. However the 2010 Star Wars Head to Head book says that suit Vader is less powerful than pre suit. Though interestingly the same book says ROTJ Luke would beat ROTS Anakin in a fight.
In legends neither Dooku nor Vader are beating Maul:
TPM Maul is superior to Grievous:
One of the big issues behind Grievous was that… I didn’t want a big powerful villain. I wanted a cunning, you know, almost cowardly villain who isn’t super-strong or super-powerful, but at the same time, you know, is a good fighter, but not- I didn’t wanna get somebody bigger and stronger and more powerful than the other villains that we’ve had, going to the next level."
Source: George Lucas, Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary
Note: I know this quote would also mean Dooku >= Grievous. I am not saying Maul is > Dooku by being >= Grievous, just that there is not a large gap between Dooku and Maul based on this quote, since Grievous and Dooku are close as duelists. This will be explained more so later on.
And SOD Maul is >> TPM Maul:
As of the Sith Hunter's ,Maul was equal to his TPM self:
Then in TCW S5 Savage was astounded with how much Maul had grown in power:
And Maul only grows stronger from Early TCW S5 to late TCW S5/SOD as he trains Savage:
And I shall complete your training, not as your brother, but as your master.
Source: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 1 Revival
''Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.
But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious.''
Source: Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy
SOD Maul>>TPM Maul>=ROTS Grievous.
Grievous was able to hard-Count Dooku in sparring.Sparring is a test of skill, rather than your physical attributes. Pure skill wise, Grievous was able to hardpress the Count:
There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.
But then, Dooku had kept some secrets to himself.
Just in case.
Source: Labyrinth of Evil
Now obviously, the holding back of physical abilities hinders Grievous much more than it hinders Dooku, yet Grievous was still hardpressing him. In an all-out duel, no holding back, however also no force powers, it's quite clear that Grievous would beat the count.
Let's also look at Grievous' duel with Windu:
Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face.
The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.
As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing.
But he didn't know Vaapad-the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.
Source: Labyrinth of Evil
In an all out fight, Grievous was fighting evenly with a slight superior to Dooku, despite Grievous himself being hindered more so than Windu by the maglev train. Grievous was also beating Windu at the end of the fight.
His ( Grievous's ) sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance." - Labyrinth of Evil.
Note: The text uses the word "stalwart" to describe Grievous's advance:
The way in which the word is used here implies that Grievous was advancing at a constant and steady rate, I:E beating Windu.Considering that the fight began with Mace crossing the distance between himself and Grievous and engaging the cyborg just as the latter drew his blades, the fact that Grievous is steadily advancing on Mace would seem to suggest that Windu gave ground at some point earlier in the fight, which shows that Windu was losing to Grievous at the end.
From this we can deduce that Grievous is a peer of Dooku, per hardpressing Dooku in sparring and fighting evenly with and even gaining the upper hand against Non-Vaapad Mace while hindered.
And Non-Vaapad Mace was a tier 8-bordering on 9 and ROTS Dooku is a tier 8:
Nick Gillard : ''And somebody like Kit Fisto is 7. I did take it to 8 and 9. But not many people know that. 8 and 9 is cheat.''
''Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III (7 to 8), but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. So Obi-Wan is 8. Yoda is 9.Mace is 8 bordering on 9. Dooku & Maul (TPM) are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves. It's not about how well they fight, it's about how well they learned.''
Source:Danger-inc.com,Theforce.net,Saberproject.
The tiering system was worked on by Lucas and Gillard:
How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some guage as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground."
"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels."
And ROTJ Vader and ROTS Dooku are peers per Lucas:
"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
The correct interpretation is as follows: Anakin, before his injuries on Mustafar ("From then on" referring to his injuries) was "as strong as the Emperor". This is a comparison of power equality: Lucas is saying Anakin is equal to Sidious. He then follows it up with a second comparison, "he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku." Since the two comparisons are components which make up a larger comparison, they both operate on the same basis: one of power equality. So since Lucas is saying Anakin is equal to Sidious in the first comparison (as strong as), he's also saying Vader, Dooku, and Maul are equal in the second because they follow the same basis of comparison.
To recap: SOD Maul>>TPM Maul~ROTS Dooku~ROTJ Vader>=ROTS Grievous
U know bro, I've been having this one debate for far too many times. I am currently locked in a Dooku vs Maul debate against W4nkdestroyer (One I'm clearly going to lose but... u gotta try), so I'm not gonna rebut this argument. But I have responses to this in my posts in the debate against W4nkdestroyer in the Anakin Rival team vs Obi Wan rival team debate, so u can check if you want
@thunderbolt57: Hey OP, just letting you know I edited your OP to post a disclaimer on the Legends round - given the recent news that G canon is no longer supreme.
The director states that Maul vs. Vader is a close fight, it's ''hard to say''.
Dave Filoni: ''You never know, you never know. The nerd-tacular obsession with Vader vs. Maul. It's hard to say – I mean, Vader is hard to top. Something George is pretty adamant of all the time was that Vader, you know… You never want to do anything to diminish him.''
Source: IGN Interview (31 Mar 2016)
It has been stated that a battle between Darth Vader and Darth Maul would be ''close call''.
''It's a close call, and these two Sith are well-matched in terms of fighting skills.''
Source: Star Wars Comic UK Volume 07 Issue 04 (2014)
Vader can take Maul and Dooku at the same time in Canon. He’s confirmed as on par with Sidious.
He isn't anywhere near close to Sidious, he was struggling with far inferior opponents like Kirak, Ahsoka or Obi-Wan alone, he gets stomped if he has to fight two at the same time.
Even Maul's non-force sensitive apprentice Qi'ra gave trouble to him if he didn't use the Force.
Legends, Vader wins, but it is very close. It's so close that I don't even know how to break it down, but Vader ultimately wins. Dooku will be the first to go. Vader and Maul will not fall because of lightning, and both Vader's and Maul's lightsaber forms are too much for Dooku.
Seen as though the pre Disney acquisition LFL hierarchy system (G canon, C canon etc) is no longer compulsory, it will not apply here. Therefore, G canon will not have supremacy. Although Lucas is still a filmmaker so his WoG can apply when it pertains to his own films, but not the wider verse
In Legends, sources can be weighed equally but given that CV is a feats oriented website, it can be assumed that people will debate on who has the better feats. That said, scaling chains, in universe logic/intent and accolades can still counter balance
In case it isn't obvious, content such as lego SW, alternate endings/DLC, crossovers with other universes, infinites etc aren't allowed
^^^ We gotta honor this because it is your thread, but it is really ridiculous. IF we are discussing canon, then sure, but the old system is no longer compulsory because Disney bought the franchise and relegated almost everything as non-canon. It is no longer part of current SW, so why, if we are not discussing current SW, should we ignore the old system when that system clarified old canon? The hierarchy was integral with old canon.
If you have a versus debate with pre-Disney characters, then we are using characters that were determined to be a certain way by way of use of that system. Not only that, there are so many discrepancies in the old system that rules had to be put into place in order to deal with them, and the hierarchy itself was one determinate of a few used to determine how to eliminate these many discrepancies. How will you determine what to do when there is a quote that states that Mace was the best lightsaber duelist when there is also a quote that says differently? I see you say to use feats, but why considering the fact that it has specifically been stated and even published that using feats is unreliable? CV being a "feats oriented website" limits CV debates and forces the debates to use unreliable, or at best, limited content that does not fully encompass a character-or indirectly another character(s). It is a disservice to the characters to do this.
And why would you even want to eliminate G canon authority? It's my understanding that is because Lucas is unreliable or that one quote from him could render an entire thread pointless. 1) There was a method to deal with Lucas quotes, so for people who don't know that, there you go. Not everything he said was canon. 2) There are feats that can end an entire debate as well. There are accolades that can end an entire debate as well. What is the difference? I get back to this in the second to last paragraph.
Is it solely because he is the creator? Shouldn't that take precedence? Creator intent? Why do you think that Ahsoka is so powerful? Creator intent. Typically people don't argue against the use of Filoni quotes, so why specifically Lucas? We use other creator quotes when determining authority. We use Chee quotes. We use Hidalgo quotes. We use Gilroy quotes. We use Marz quotes. Why not Lucas, or at least why not with authority when used correctly-such as something he said that is published in an official source?
Anakin Skywalker, as of the PT, was intended to be the most powerful. It's said repeatedly in C canon. But in C canon it's also said that others are the most powerful, such as Sidious and Yoda...but it's said that Anakin > them...so how do we determine this if we do not use creator intent as the proverbial ace?
You say that old N canon can't be used, but why not? You say you are not adhering to the hierarchy, so why not use N canon? In saying that you won't allow it, you are acknowledging that there was a need for a hierarchy.
Is S canon just as valid as something Lucas said? Or actually, does S canon trump what Lucas said? What about game stats? What about in the case when game stats contradict each other? What about the old Marvel comics? We know those comics are old and outdated, but are you saying they carry as much weight as what was C and T and G canon? If so, then why because we will know that they are unreliable, unless they don't contradict other canon. ... Again, the hierarchy existed because of differences/contradictions. Maybe the best thing to do is not to mix G canon and T canon up with other canon, meaning don't use the movies and movie novelizations and TCW when discussing the EU. They were "parallel universes", and if people are going to focus on the hierarchy being ridiculous - which is because of the fact that they are different universes - then just simply do not mix them up. Is that not the more logical approach? Hmm...What do you think?
------------------------
You might want to change the word "Seen" to "Seeing".
In legends neither Dooku nor Vader are beating Maul:
TPM Maul is superior to Grievous:
One of the big issues behind Grievous was that… I didn’t want a big powerful villain. I wanted a cunning, you know, almost cowardly villain who isn’t super-strong or super-powerful, but at the same time, you know, is a good fighter, but not- I didn’t wanna get somebody bigger and stronger and more powerful than the other villains that we’ve had, going to the next level."
Source: George Lucas, Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary
Note: I know this quote would also mean Dooku >= Grievous. I am not saying Maul is > Dooku by being >= Grievous, just that there is not a large gap between Dooku and Maul based on this quote, since Grievous and Dooku are close as duelists. This will be explained more so later on.
And SOD Maul is >> TPM Maul:
As of the Sith Hunter's ,Maul was equal to his TPM self:
Then in TCW S5 Savage was astounded with how much Maul had grown in power:
And Maul only grows stronger from Early TCW S5 to late TCW S5/SOD as he trains Savage:
And I shall complete your training, not as your brother, but as your master.
Source: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 1 Revival
''Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.
But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious.''
Source: Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy
SOD Maul>>TPM Maul>=ROTS Grievous.
Grievous was able to hard-Count Dooku in sparring.Sparring is a test of skill, rather than your physical attributes. Pure skill wise, Grievous was able to hardpress the Count:
There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.
But then, Dooku had kept some secrets to himself.
Just in case.
Source: Labyrinth of Evil
Now obviously, the holding back of physical abilities hinders Grievous much more than it hinders Dooku, yet Grievous was still hardpressing him. In an all-out duel, no holding back, however also no force powers, it's quite clear that Grievous would beat the count.
Let's also look at Grievous' duel with Windu:
Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face.
The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.
As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing.
But he didn't know Vaapad-the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.
Source: Labyrinth of Evil
In an all out fight, Grievous was fighting evenly with a slight superior to Dooku, despite Grievous himself being hindered more so than Windu by the maglev train. Grievous was also beating Windu at the end of the fight.
His ( Grievous's ) sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance." - Labyrinth of Evil.
Note: The text uses the word "stalwart" to describe Grievous's advance:
The way in which the word is used here implies that Grievous was advancing at a constant and steady rate, I:E beating Windu.Considering that the fight began with Mace crossing the distance between himself and Grievous and engaging the cyborg just as the latter drew his blades, the fact that Grievous is steadily advancing on Mace would seem to suggest that Windu gave ground at some point earlier in the fight, which shows that Windu was losing to Grievous at the end.
From this we can deduce that Grievous is a peer of Dooku, per hardpressing Dooku in sparring and fighting evenly with and even gaining the upper hand against Non-Vaapad Mace while hindered.
And Non-Vaapad Mace was a tier 8-bordering on 9 and ROTS Dooku is a tier 8:
Nick Gillard : ''And somebody like Kit Fisto is 7. I did take it to 8 and 9. But not many people know that. 8 and 9 is cheat.''
''Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III (7 to 8), but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. So Obi-Wan is 8. Yoda is 9.Mace is 8 bordering on 9. Dooku & Maul (TPM) are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves. It's not about how well they fight, it's about how well they learned.''
Source:Danger-inc.com,Theforce.net,Saberproject.
The tiering system was worked on by Lucas and Gillard:
How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some guage as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground."
"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels."
And ROTJ Vader and ROTS Dooku are peers per Lucas:
"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
The correct interpretation is as follows: Anakin, before his injuries on Mustafar ("From then on" referring to his injuries) was "as strong as the Emperor". This is a comparison of power equality: Lucas is saying Anakin is equal to Sidious. He then follows it up with a second comparison, "he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku." Since the two comparisons are components which make up a larger comparison, they both operate on the same basis: one of power equality. So since Lucas is saying Anakin is equal to Sidious in the first comparison (as strong as), he's also saying Vader, Dooku, and Maul are equal in the second because they follow the same basis of comparison.
To recap: SOD Maul>>TPM Maul~ROTS Dooku~ROTJ Vader>=ROTS Grievous
@erkan12: and yet we have multiple statements and feats that prove yes he is on Sidious level in canon. Vader batters Dooku into the ground while Maul as usual runs away crying.
@redheathen: I'm fairly certain we spoke about this before and I explained why the old system is no longer in place. To avoid derailing the thread please message me in PM.
Maul had to be powered up and amped to even match Vader in Sabers Vader could have killed him and All the dark side prophets , at once , if he simply decided to switch to the force
So
Sabers - maul > Vader
Force - Vader >> maul
“Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.”
-- Insider #62
vader's power grew greatly after that
So Vader would win in a decent fight by ESB , same level in Sabers , much better in force
Canon - Prime Vader >>>> Prime dooku >> Prime Maul
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