Darth Maul vs. Count Dooku (lightsabers only)

Maul has his double lightsaber.

Dooku

I can see an argument being made for either side.

Maul is more aggressive

Dooku wins. Superior technical skill, greater feats, greater Force reserves and can circumvent the physical disadvantage.

While Maul is more aggressive, Dooku still outclasses him.

dual lightsabers >/ single lightsaber

@wollfmyth209:

Superior technical skill

Proof?

greater feats

Which are?

greater Force reserves

Doubtful. Dooku can be tired out by strenuous duels. Maul's endurance feats (his Sith Lord trial on Hypori, surviving being bisected) blow Dooku's stamina out of the water.

and can circumvent the physical disadvantage.

Due to what exactly?

@i_like_swords:

Proof?

Serving for years as one of the most able instructors of the Jedi Order, and surpassing even Yoda's skill with Makashi.

Which are?

Giving Anakin and Obi-Wan grief, outsparring Grievous, stalemating Asajj and two nightsisters while blinded, holding his own against Yoda, stalemating Windu as a Jedi and just to run down some accolades:

• Being one of the most skilled Jedi in the Order's history, and even greater as a Sith
• A near-equal of Yoda
• Equal/superior to Mace
• Was stated as being virtually indomitable and undefeatable
• Was a Legend as a Jedi

Doubtful. Dooku can be tired out by strenuous duels. Maul's endurance feats (his Sith Lord trial on Hypori, surviving being bisected) blow Dooku's stamina out of the water.

That's physical reserves. By Force reserves, I mean something more like:

He's old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going for as long as he needed.

Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

He[Dooku] pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

Source: Revenge of the Sith novel

Due to what exactly?

Doing so against Grievous, and Anakin(for the most part).

@wollfmyth209:

Serving for years as one of the most able instructors of the Jedi Order, and surpassing even Yoda's skill with Makashi.

Not seeing how this is superior to Maul, who has trained his technical skill endlessly even after it was already perfectly embedded into his muscle memory (Episode I Journal: Darth Maul), and had his skill described by Sidious as "peerless" (Saboteur), "nonpareil" (Shadow Hunter), "the embodiment of the violent half" (Darth Plagueis) of his and Sidious' partnership, and was said to have trained with his saberstaff by Sidious "until it is a part of you" (The Wrath of Darth Maul). Equivalent seems more fair.. or inferior.

Giving Anakin and Obi-Wan grief

So have Savage and Ventress, both people Maul is superior to.

outsparring Grievous

It helps to mention that Dooku trained Grievous from the ground up in lightsaber combat, and that one of Grievous' weaknesses is being predictable (in that he commits to a pre-programmed set of routines opposed to Force users letting the Force guide their actions), which is what Dooku capitalized on (which would be easy as his lightsaber mentor).

I'd say Maul making a mockery of Savage is at least equivalent to this feat regardless.

stalemating Asajj and two nightsisters while blinded

Actually, he lost in the end but defeated them with Force lightning. I don't think this result is beyond Maul's capabilities given that he toyed with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan simultaneously.

holding his own against Yoda,

Maul held his own against Sidious in a similar manner at the end of The Lawless.

stalemating Windu as a Jedi

Why would being even with pre-TPM Windu elevate one above Maul?

and just to run down some accolades:

• Being one of the most skilled Jedi in the Order's history, and even greater as a Sith
• A near-equal of Yoda
• Equal/superior to Mace
• Was stated as being virtually indomitable and undefeatable
• Was a Legend as a Jedi

• Maul is one of the most highly trained, skilled, dangerous etc Sith Warriors in the Order's entire history, and then improved heading into TCW. I see no disparity here.
• It's hard to be a near-equal of someone who has you beaten in 40 seconds.
• It was said Dooku and Yoda are the only ones who have beaten Windu in spars, and that Windu is equal to Dooku and second to Yoda, which is the most consistent and logical outcome around the time of pre-TPM up to AotC.
• Prior to becoming a Sith Lord, as a 15-17 year old, Maul was accoladed as "the perfect Sith weapon" (Dark Side Sourcebook), and from various sourcebooks and characters has descriptions to the effect of "ultimate killing machine". Clearly hyperbolic for either Maul or Dooku, and neither is superior to the other.
• So was Sylvar.

That's physical reserves.

Yeah, Maul's physical reserves blow Dooku's Force reserves out of the water, and then adding his Force reserves on top of that make it a laughing matter. Also, no, it's not just physical; Maul surviving his bisection was attributed to his ability to call on his knowledge of the Dark Side, and he grew even more powerful after that point. Dooku has no edge in Force reserves.

By Force reserves, I mean something more like:

He's old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going for as long as he needed.

Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

He[Dooku] pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

Source: Revenge of the Sith novel

The first one indicates that Anakin thinks it would take a long time for him to tire Dooku out; what about that suggests superiority to Maul's bisection feat in terms of reserves?

The second one just isn't great, at all. Dooku's already physically fitter than most people half his age as per Dark Rendezvous, so it wouldn't take much Force power to overcome his old age. And again, overcoming bisection is a little better than overcoming old age.

Doing so against Grievous, and Anakin(for the most part).

Grievous has never been a strength-based fighter, is less able martially than Maul and lacks the Force to guide and empower his movements in the same way Maul is able to (and Maul's physical body can compete with Grievous' cybernetics in terms of strength without the Force).

Anakin has floored Dooku twice during TCW by overpowering him, which isn't even his prime. Savage has also shown enough strength to bully the likes of Dooku, Kenobi, Ventress and Anakin (all before his prime), yet Maul was able to pin him to a wall on Lotho Minor while in horrendous condition, and had little issue deflecting Savage's full-momentium strikes with one arm before using the other to disarm Savage and crank his arm upwards.

So, not only am I seeing a massive strength disparity, but I've noticed that of the certain qualities Dooku has a less than stellar track record against (unpredictability [referring to Vos], strength, relentless aggression), Maul excels in all of them through his usage of Juyo.

So, my stance for the moment is that technical skill is equal, accolades are equal, feats are pretty close to being equal, and Maul has a large physical and stylistic edge in a pure lightsaber duel. I'm siding with Maul currently.

Qui-Gon was actually considered to be almost even with Yoda, Maul beat him while Dooku lost to him.

'Swords has finally given up to temptation.

Top-KEK.

...bruh....

That would place Maul in a league above Sidious if it was true, ngl.

Sidious is equal to Yoda.

@pr0d1gy:

Yeah, but Maul pretty convincingly won against someone who you said, and I quote is "is almost even with Yoda". That would at least make you a Sidious level combatant on the absolute low-scale.

But of course, Jinn is nowhere near Yoda as a duelist(if so, mind posting the relevant passage?), so the point is moot.

Darth Tyranus emerges victorious, but it's a great duel.

Hmmmm.Why doesn't Maul Know Force Lightning??

@i_like_swords:

Not seeing how this is superior to Maul, who has trained his technical skill endlessly even after it was already perfectly embedded into his muscle memory (Episode I Journal: Darth Maul), and had his skill described by Sidious as "peerless" (Saboteur), "nonpareil" (Shadow Hunter), "the embodiment of the violent half" (Darth Plagueis) of his and Sidious' partnership, and was said to have trained with his saberstaff by Sidious "until it is a part of you" (The Wrath of Darth Maul). Equivalent seems more fair.. or inferior.

That's all well and good, but I'm pretty sure surpassing Yoda in a lightsaber art would be superior to this.

So have Savage and Ventress, both people Maul is superior to.

The Anakin/Obi-Wan duo Dooku gave grief two is considerably better than the TCW duo.

It helps to mention that Dooku trained Grievous from the ground up in lightsaber combat, and that one of Grievous' weaknesses is being predictable (in that he commits to a pre-programmed set of routines opposed to Force users letting the Force guide their actions), which is what Dooku capitalized on (which would be easy as his lightsaber mentor).

Fair enough.

I'd say Maul making a mockery of Savage is at least equivalent to this feat regardless.

Maul made a mockery out of Savage when Savage was barely trained, and he did it by using his legs.

Actually, he lost in the end but defeated them with Force lightning.

Until then, he kept throwing/kicking them around and only lost near the end when Asajj lended a TK hit.

I don't think this result is beyond Maul's capabilities given that he toyed with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan simultaneously.

Asajj could probably take on and defeat Qui-GOn and Obi on her own.

Maul held his own against Sidious in a similar manner at the end of The Lawless.

For a shorter time, and whilst enraged.

Why would being even with pre-TPM Windu elevate one above Maul?

Because Maul himself noted Mace as a great Jedi Warrior, and was still the second most respectable master of the Council.

Maul is one of the most highly trained, skilled, dangerous etc Sith Warriors in the Order's entire history, and then improved heading into TCW. I see no disparity here.

S'about on par with Dooku's accolades.

It's hard to be a near-equal of someone who has you beaten in 40 seconds.

Dooku fleed after 40 seconds, but wasn't exactly defeated. That being said, there are sources that suggest the fight was a stalemate:

It was said Dooku and Yoda are the only ones who have beaten Windu in spars, and that Windu is equal to Dooku and second to Yoda, which is the most consistent and logical outcome around the time of pre-TPM up to AotC.

Actually, several sources implied/noted Dooku's superiority to Windu. I posted some of them here: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/sith-of-the-old-republic-era-vs-sith-of-the-new-re-1747750/

Check post 37.

Prior to becoming a Sith Lord, as a 15-17 year old, Maul was accoladed as "the perfect Sith weapon" (Dark Side Sourcebook), and from various sourcebooks and characters has descriptions to the effect of "ultimate killing machine". Clearly hyperbolic for either Maul or Dooku, and neither is superior to the other.

Fair enough.

So was Sylvar.

Good for Sylvar.

Grievous has never been a strength-based fighter,

Put his strength is still there.

is less able martially than Maul and lacks the Force to guide and empower his movements in the same Maul is able to

I wonder why that didn't save him from being kicked aside by Grievous...

(and Maul's physical body can compete with Grievous' cybernetics in terms of strength without the Force).

The same guy who crushed Jedi like it's nothing and broke through Mandalorian armor? Nah.

Anakin has floored Dooku twice during TCW by overpowering him, which isn't even his prime.

But with unarmed strikes, not his superior strength.

Savage has also shown enough strength to bully the likes of Dooku, Kenobi, Ventress and Anakin (all before his prime),

Didn't Dooku almost casually deflect his blows aside and was only thrown back when Savage was enraged and he had to split his attention between Savage and Asajj=

yet Maul was able to pin him to a wall on Lotho Minor while in horrendous condition, and had little issue deflecting Savage's full-momentium strikes with one arm before using the other to disarm Savage and crank his arm upwards.

He did that via his spider-legs, however. And the latter example is of superior martial technique, more than anything.

So, not only am I seeing a massive strength disparity,

Not that massive. Dooku still kicked Kenobi hard enough his neck almost cracked, subdued Anakin(who is on Maul's level physically) in that manner and folded both in half with unarmed strikes.

but I've noticed that of the certain qualities Dooku has a less than stellar track record against (unpredictability [referring to Vos], strength, relentless aggression), Maul excels in all of them through his usage of Juyo.

By that logic: Mace would be Dooku's superior. But he isn't; he's always been equal or implied his inferior. And Vos winning through "unpredictability" is rather laughable(as was the entire fight scene), as Dooku adjusted just fine to Kenobi's and Anakin's quick shift of styles.

So, my stance for the moment is that technical skill is equal, accolades are equal,

Seems fair.

feats are pretty close to being equal,

With Dooku's being superior.

and Maul has a large physical and stylistic edge in a pure lightsaber duel.

Edges Windu had over Dooku, yet never made a difference.

I'm siding with Maul currently.

And I'm siding with Dooku :/

Maul had Savage disarmed before using his legs. He could've just as easily impaled him there. I've seen the leg excuse used before to explain that fight, and it does not hold up at all.

People realize "lightsabers only" means no force abilities right?

@emperordmb: To be fair, Savage was barely trained at the time and Maul still didn't win through dueling skill, but rather superior martial technique.

Yoda >=< Sidious > Maul > Qui-Gon Gin

Easy

@wollfmyth209: yeah but Savage didn't receive much training at all after that point.

@pr0d1gy:

All that's well and good and all, but my point is that Jinn is nowhere near Yoda as a swordsman, KEK.

He is.

@maxlabp:

What do you mean by only lightsabers ? Does this mean no one can use his martial art skills as well ? I always find weird this ''only lightsaber'' fights to be honest, Maul would get the advantage over Dooku with his hybrid saber + martial art skills, similar to a djem-so specialist but only faster since he doesn't have any mobility weakness as well and it's also unorthodox and unpredictable. And according to sources, Juyo has more kinetic power than Djem-so, which is a major problem for Dooku.

But since you called it ''only lightsabers'' it may be forbidden to use a physical contact via martial arts...

Either way I don't see Dooku is winning this really, his only chance to beat Maul is, when Maul applying his Juyo he can give some opening for a force push which Dooku can easily gain advantage from it, but since force powers are forbidden here Dooku lost that advantage either.

Does he need to ? He has already overcome a force lightning attack before, and means nothing to him as he can deflect it with his saber.

@pr0d1gy:

And again; where is the relevant passage that states this?

Dooku kicks Maul's ass while sipping some Martini.

tbt @darthant66

@wollfmyth209:

That's all well and good, but I'm pretty sure surpassing Yoda in a lightsaber art would be superior to this.

Why would it be, in a technical sense?

The Anakin/Obi-Wan duo Dooku gave grief two is considerably better than the TCW duo.

They were also beating him more handily than they were Ventress, and didn't ever gain an edge over Savage. It's not a far greater feat if it is one, and Maul is considerably ahead of Savage as a duelist.

Maul made a mockery out of Savage when Savage was barely trained, and he did it by using his legs.

Firstly, Savage was a confirmed master of saberstaff combat through Dooku's training alone (Factfile 31), and was the greatest Nightbrother - a purely warrior clan who Savage trained with since infancy (he is in his 30s during TCW). Savage defeated Plo Koon while being shot at by clones, nearly defeated Dooku alongside Ventress, pushed back Anakin and Obi-Wan, and forced Ventress and Kenobi to retreat while aided by Maul, all before receiving some training from Maul and then being overpowered by him in short, effortless order.

Maul deflected Savage's full-momentum blows, and disarmed him of his lightsaber, forcefully yanking his arm upwards into a painful position, with his hands. He pinned him to the ground after the fact with his legs.

Until then, he kept throwing/kicking them around and only lost near the end when Asajj lended a TK hit.

Okay? He still lost. Maul toyed with a duo that isn't terribly far off Ventress and the two Nightsisters (both of whose skill I'd call into question both as fighters and with a lightsaber specifically, seeing as they don't use one normally and it's a weapon that requires dedicated mastery). So, again, it's not beyond Maul.

Asajj could probably take on and defeat Qui-GOn and Obi on her own.

According to what?

For a shorter time, and whilst enraged.

Apply context. Yoda went on purely defensive stances while fighting Dooku and then followed them up with wild Ataru offences (a style Dooku is intimately familiar with the weaknesses of), gradually wearing Dooku down and always holding superiority. This would serve to prolong the fight.

Maul and Sidious went full throttle in what appeared to be a battle of pure Juyo, displaying absolutely relentless, ferocious, full-intensity maneuvers, both landing a kick on each other, and Maul didn't lose because he was tired, or being outfought in an obvious manner (like Dooku) - but because he dedicated to a bladelock with Sidious and was overpowered in a blunt manner.

Dooku fought for longer, but didn't really do as well as Maul in the time given.

Pointing out the rage amp is fair, but I'd make a couple of points on that; Maul did better than Dooku at least in terms of the quality of their showings if not the length, and he doesn't know every weakness of Sidious' lightsaber form - where Yoda dedicates himself solely to Ataru to address the shortcomings of his anatomy, Sidious has free reign to draw from every lightsaber form and martial in existence that he pleases, and does so, according to Nick Gillard. And he not only does so in a technical manner, but also in a psychological one; as he said, Sidious fools people into thinking they can beat him and then he pummels them when they display a vulnerability. So, there's a few factors that would serve to prolong Dooku's fight with Yoda past it's natural expiration date, whereas Maul and Sidious' was actually competitive (to use the term loosely.. not saying Maul was in with a chance of winning) to a degree and was cut short by the blade lock. I'd say the rage amp is equally consequential to what I described above.

Also, Maul has a great amount of animosity for Dooku as it is, so I wouldn't call it a total far cry from what he'd be able to achieve against Dooku. I mean, it's Sidious' monologue about Maul being replaced that visually angers him, more than Savage's death.. and Dooku is who replaced Maul; a prime target to unleash all of his pent up anger and hatred towards.

Essentially I'm saying Dooku had as much going for him against Yoda as Maul did against Sidious, and the nature of their showings are different but comparable. I don't think either feat is notably better than the other.

Because Maul himself noted Mace as a great Jedi Warrior, and was still the second most respectable master of the Council.

He noted Mace and Plo Koon as a worthy challenge in the same sentence... that is hardly a declaration of inferiority, not only because Maul is clearly beyond Plo but because he himself believes himself capable of defeating any Jedi at that point in time.

Why would being the second best Jedi at that point in time put Windu above Maul? Who is he superior to that is equivalent to Maul between pre-TPM and Attack of the Clones?

That being said, there are sources that suggest the fight was a stalemate:

Those sources are only summarizing the fight briefly, and are still right in the sense that there was no conclusion to the bout; Dooku ran away before it could finish because he was on the verge of losing. Sources always say Kenobi "defeated" Maul on Naboo, but we all know Maul kicked his ass.

Actually, several sources implied/noted Dooku's superiority to Windu. I posted some of them here:

One source says Dooku and Yoda have beaten Windu in spars; this doesn't preclude the notion that Windu sometimes beat them too, which is what likely happened with Dooku, since they were peers.

Another says Dooku is the greatest of Yoda's apprentices, which I'd say is true; he's the strongest Force user Yoda ever trained. Wisest, most learned in the ways of the Force, as Yoda put it. This doesn't necessarily mean he's better than Windu with a saber.

The one about Dooku "nearly outclassing any opponent apart from Yoda" doesn't need to apply to Mace. It said nearly.. I'd say nearly safely excludes one of Dooku's peers.

Like I'm saying, Dooku and Windu seem to just be very close equals up to the point of Geonosis. Where I'd say one could be considered better is when Mace develops enough internal darkness to match Sidious' Force enhancement in a duel, while Dooku calling on every bit of strength he has is getting demolished by Anakin. But that's a whole other debate for another thread. The point is Dooku isn't superior to Mace.

Good for Sylvar.

The point is being called a Jedi Legend isn't anything special in relation to Maul. Especially not in a combative sense.

Put his strength is still there.

Strength isn't going to matter as much if you don't apply it. Djem So and Juyo apply overwhelming strength. Grievous applies overwhelming speed and angles.

I wonder why that didn't save him from being kicked aside by Grievous...

Maul had just fought through legions of battle droids and fought four Magnaguards, who specialize in fatiguing Jedi by attacking them in groups (Ultimate Star Wars). I think you can forgive Maul for being kicked once by a Grievous who in comparison killed a lone Mandalorian by that point.

But yes, Maul is beyond Grievous. He has better accolades, better feats, and cybernetics aren't a suitable replacement for the Force when you get to Maul's tier.

The same guy who crushed Jedi like it's nothing and broke through Mandalorian armor? Nah.

Crushing organic beings and stabbing armor has to do with Grievous' piercing damage, because he's made of Duranium, not his combative strength that fuels his lightsaber strikes. Maul has, without active Force enhancement, punched clean through a Wampa's abdomen (which is far thicker than that of a human being) and decapitated a Varactyl by ripping it's head off with his bare hands (the massive creature Obi-Wan rode in Revenge of the Sith, which has an armored skull and a far heavier and more dense skeletal structure than human beings). That's without Force enhancement. With it? Maul's going to be stronger than Grievous.

Another comparison I'd use is that Savage is clearly stronger than Grievous in a combative manner, given that he has pushed a strength advantage over the same duelists Grievous has been unable to (Kenobi, Ventress, and more notably Anakin and Dooku), and Maul has shown Savage's strength isn't an issue for him at all, even if he lets Savage wind up his best strike and slam it down on just one of Maul's arms.

tl;dr Maul is stronger than Grievous, and unlike Grievous, applies that strength far more in combat. Dooku isn't circumventing Maul's strength by virtue of fighting Grievous.

But with unarmed strikes, not his superior strength.

He pushed Dooku on the backfoot and then kicked him. Maul is roughly as strong as TCW Anakin, if not stronger, and is a much more heavily trained unarmed martial artist. Doesn't seem out of the question that Maul could apply said strength and unarmed mastery in the same way.

Didn't Dooku almost casually deflect his blows aside and was only thrown back when Savage was enraged and he had to split his attention between Savage and Asajj?

He casually deflected Savage's blows when Savage first started lightsaber training - his first spar with Dooku, or with a lightsaber. Ventress was on the floor and Savage was fighting Dooku by himself when he hit him hard enough to disarm him and throw him against a wall; and Savage wasn't particularly angry at that point, either. Maul deflected the exact same type of strike that floored Dooku with one arm.

He did that via his spider-legs, however. And the latter example is of superior martial technique, more than anything.

Are you saying an insane, physically destroyed, poorly fed Maul with falling-apart, thin spider appendages constructed from scrap metal twelve years prior, is physically stronger than he is when he returns to TCW with a healed mind and a power increase? Because I don't see how that even begins to add up.

Martial technique plays a part. He still needs to grab Savage's arm against his will, yank it in another direction against his will and twist, again, against his will. Strength plays a big part in that.

Not that massive.

It's pretty massive, bro.

Dooku still kicked Kenobi hard enough his neck almost cracked, subdued Anakin(who is on Maul's level physically) in that manner and folded both in half with unarmed strikes.

He kicked Kenobi, Kenobi fell down stairs, there was a crack, and it sounded like Kenobi cracked his neck. But he didn't.

Landing a kick on Anakin doesn't mean Dooku is anywhere near as strong as him. It means he kicked him, which hurts. Dooku himself in RotS acknowledges that he has no chance of meeting Anakin head to head in a bout of strength because of Djem So's focus on strength, and Anakin's own Force reserves and raw physical might, which I think is aptly shown in TCW.

As you say, Maul is on Anakin's level physically. They both have massive Force reserves. Maul has unbelievable natural physical strength. They have somewhat equivalent feats on the whole, though Anakin by RotS is certainly stronger; the point is Maul should be more than able to tax Dooku with his strength. It's a clear stylistic edge.

By that logic: Mace would be Dooku's superior. But he isn't; he's always been equal

For one; sparring is very different from an actual fight. They're not trying to kill each other. Secondly, Windu's best strength and Force augmentation feats occur well after the days of Dooku being a Jedi; it's likely Mace improved as the war pushed his abilities, as it did every Jedi who fought extensively. So, accounting for that, Mace's stylistic edge, like Maul's, could very well give him an edge over Dooku.

And Vos winning through "unpredictability" is rather laughable(as was the entire fight scene), as Dooku adjusted just fine to Kenobi's and Anakin's quick shift of styles.

Saying it's laughable doesn't change that it happened, unfortunately. Dooku did no such thing; he was toiling after they switched to their Soresu and Djem So stances, everything before that was a ruse to lead Dooku into a false sense of security.

Dooku is a great duelist; he fights economically, makes great use of space and footwork, is precise (all attributes of Makashi that help overcome the drawback of his age), but he has weaknesses, which appear to be aggressive, powerful, relentless assaults, and it doesn't help when they're erratically applied either. Maul is all of these things, in excess, as is Windu, and so is Vos. Dark Disciple notes that he was pushing a good strength advantage over Ventress and his physical abilities were seriously impressive when embracing the Dark Side. I find Dooku losing to any of the three in a pure lightsaber duel to be pretty reasonable.

With Dooku's being superior.

I didn't say that, and you certainly haven't proven it.

Edges Windu had over Dooku, yet never made a difference.

In off-panel, well pre-prime spars. All we have to gauge since then is a short fight between the two which Dooku ran from (Obsession), and a comparison of how they deal with physically powerful opponents; Dooku gets worn down or floored by power duelists, whereas Windu can smash metal droids apart and, at his absolute peak, match Sidious, who is insanely strong physically to the point Dooku is laughable in comparison. Windu has a very safe strength edge over the Count, one that likely matters.

@i_like_swords:

Like I'm saying, Dooku and Windu seem to just be very close equals up to the point of Geonosis. Where I'd say one could be considered better is when Mace develops enough internal darkness to match Sidious' Force enhancement in a duel, while Dooku calling on every bit of strength he has is getting demolished by Anakin. But that's a whole other debate for another thread. The point is Dooku isn't superior to Mace.

ILS, marry me. :>

@wollfmyth209:

Asajj could probably take on and defeat Qui-GOn and Obi on her own.

Don't see how. Jinn alone would give Ventress the fight of her life and would probably beat her imo, as he isn't exactly far behind Ventress in terms of skill and his style works perfectly against hers.

Dooku being equal to Mace isn't on the table and it's not acceptable for my part, Lucas already said that Mace could compete with the Emperor, while Dooku or Maul couldn't. And I don't know why friendly sparring matches should matter, especially while Mace even stalemated with Saesee Tiin in a sparring match, and Windu isn't going to use his dark side energy in any sparring match either, since he taunted Vos when he sensed Vaapad.

Either way, using the Mace argument isn't the safest thing here, and as far as I see, Maul has the advantage over Dooku in the Mace fights when Mace was actually using his Vaapad.

Both Dooku and Maul had to retreat shortly after when they faced with Mace Windu. In Boz Pity, Dooku used his droids to keep occupied Windu,

Gallery

And Maul gained the advantage from an explosion and leave shortly after.

Gallery

The difference here, Maul was fighting against Aayla Secura at the same time when he was fighting against Windu, and reacting to an explosion before Windu is another recognizable feat.

@erkan12: Wow,you're pretty upset at someone who was only asking a question,I have nothing invested in this debate.

Probably, especially while Jinn has a pretty good knowledge of Ventress' style due to ''thousand of times'' sparring matches with his former master Dooku, and his strength can be very effective against her.

Not at all, I am not upset, I just answered your question.

I'd back Maul in this fight though, close one either way.

Maul is my favorite sith so him

I think you've mistaken it with the force ghost mastery where Qui-Gon becomes Yoda's master ?

If not, I don't see how they can possibly be at the same level in terms of combat abilities.

I'll go with the guy who's superior to Windu.

So, neither of them?

You're after my heart ILS, I just know it.

could go either way

I always saw Dooku as superior outside physical stats.

Anyways, Maul kicks his teeth in.

Pretty sure you're after my heart, Steel.. stop it, you.

@i_like_swords: I'm not saying that Maul wrecks, or wins a majority, or anything, I'm saying he quite literally kicks Dooku's teeth down his throat. Maul has a tendency to go for face-kicks after all.

Purely Sabres? Maul, and I don't think its THAT close. Would be an awesome fight but Maul takes it on all occasions.

@spector_rand: This actually is probably a pretty good fight... and honestly... if both were allowed to amp their physicals with the force, Dooku should take this pretty much every time. The guy, while definitely NOT as good as Yoda, Windu, or Palpatine.... wasn't far off either. Maul on the other hand, while mean with a saber and having better physicals would simply be outclassed by someone who... hey... happens to be one of the best duelists in the Galaxy and beats him in general force power and ability.

As it is though, this is sabers only, so no force amps come into play. This becomes a case of skill and base physical stats. Maul, being both young and a Zabrak should be faster than Dooku, stronger than Dooku, and definitely have better physicals. Skill can win this for the Count, (he is more skilled and controlled than Maul) but it isn't like Maul isn't good enough to put up a legit fight, plus as a Zabrak his pain tolerance should be naturally a damn sight higher than Dooku's. Given the age difference, the physicals basically being better for Maul in every way, the skill difference not being that great, and mainly the lack of force abilities/amps, realistically Maul should take this much more often than not.

@maxlabp: If these are movie versions, despite considering maul to be one of the most dangerous fighters in the movies, dookus skill will pose a very difficult problem. I can see a way for maul to win but I see more for dooku. Dooku wins 6/10.

Purely sabers I would give dooku a tiny edge, Maul gives him absolute hell every time though no matter who wins.