darth maul vs count dooku

@erkanfan12 Can you do me a favor and make that orange lightsaber pic your display photo? For real, I think you post that every day of your life.

WE are everyone who finds your posts & are subjected to reading them. (Spits on ground + rolls eyes)

Still Dooku. everyone knows this minus you..

@g_race: Date joined:2017-02-03 - 0 following - 0 followers

It looks like another dupe account to me...

People aren't buying these dupe troll accounts. Especially I don't. So stop talking about ''we'', no one knows you on this site.

And read the thread from the beginning, you can see how many people say Maul wins. Even the writer of SoD comic book said Maul wins, that's a fact. And even Savage Opress bested Dooku in a lightsaber combat, that's another fact. Stop wasting my time with your dupe account.

Can only comment on Disney canon since I don't know much of EU/Legends canon but:

Maul wins. Savage disarmed him after he swat Dooku to the side with one swing. maul's physically stronger than him from their little fight where maul beats him almost barehanded in 5 seconds. Dude could also trade blows with Sidious given enough rage (remember Maul has the potential to be on the same tier as him given that Sidious immediately ditched Talzin in favor for a child Maul to be his apprentice; Talzin who proved to be roughly comparable to Sidious on Dathomir). Throw in the fact that his Juyo is as aggressive if not more so than Anakin's, and I don't see Dooku lasting long in lightsaber combat (dooku lasted 10 seconds against Anakin)

In raw force strength, they're comparable based on how nothing changed after they added their input into Sidious v. Talzin in Son of Dathomir. Maul can't use force lightning like Dooku but as long as he has a glowing stick in front of his face, he'll be able to block it. He already survived lightning from a far stronger Sith.

Not a Star War expert by any stretch keep in mind so im happy to be proven wrong :)

@erkan12:

"So you couldn't handle the defeat and try to wallpaper this thread again huh? Not surprised. :))" 

Translation: you got trashed by real sources, couldn't handle it and you're living in denial again. Not surprised. 

"Heavily wounded and starving Maul nearly bested TPM Sidious" 

No. A massively amped Maul failed to kill Sidious who was half a decade away from TPM. This is especially hilarious given you later say this:

"Do I need to remind you amplifications > fighting prowess in Star Wars?"

-- Erkan12

Cognitive dissonance.

"who was already stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord in the history by Darth Plagueis.| Lmao... TPM Sidious stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord in the history by Darth Plagueis, and together they were able to unbalance the Force by manipulating the midichlorians..."

Oh... I see. We are treating subjective opinions as fact. Gotcha. Well, I can do that too:

"In adolescence, Dooku became the Padawan learner of Thame Cerulian, a Jedi scholar on the Council who called Dooku the finest swordsman he had ever seen." 

-- Insider #113

Padawan Dooku > Yoda.

"...'Count Dooku's fall has troubled us all,' Obi-Wan acknowledged. 'Now we have a great and powerful enemy.' His thoughts turned to his battle with Dooku. He had never met such power in battle before. He had never come up against something that had completely overpowered him. Even meeting the Sith Lord who had killed Qui-Gon had not been the same."

-- Legacy of the Jedi

AOTC Dooku >>>>>>> TPM Maul according to that. 

"That's better than merely holding his own against Yoda,"

Stalemating AOTC Yoda (who is better than ROTS Yoda who is better than ROTS Sidious) while exhausted is infinitely better than failing to beat a vastly pre-prime Sidious while massively amped. 

"who wasn't even using the Force offensively against his former Jedi padawan Dooku." 

100% incorrect:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7uiE9Ny1fUu2GFqw8

Funny how Yoda outright strains to hold off Dooku's lightning, yet the latter is able to easily and instantly deflect it when it was hurled back at him. Yoda is totally way more powerful, sure.

"Maul's best feat against Sidious > Dooku's best feat against Yoda." 

Literally the very definition of inane. Maul, with a massive rage amp, attacked his master while the latter was off-guard, still failed to kill him and still lost, and this Sidious was an incarnation five years prior to TPM. Dooku, on the other hand, while already exhausted, matched Yoda for almost 40 seconds, and still remained undefeated. And that Yoda was years superior to the Yoda who was better than ROTS Sidious. That version of Sidious > CW Sidious > AOTC Sidious > TPM Sidious > the Sidious Maul fought. 

In short, an amped Maul failed to kill a vastly weaker Sidious than the Sidious Yoda was better than, that version of Yoda being weaker than the Yoda Dooku stalemated while exhausted.

"Dooku was exhausted after defeating AotC Kenobi and AotC Anakin?"

Duh:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/SxRvKnRZnTktsTMGA

https://photos.app.goo.gl/PAHzWrQLiRn1z2xT7

"Maul was as fresh as ever after defeating Qui-Gon and extremely amped Kenobi"

Good for him, superb stamina. But irrelevent. 

"Maul > Dooku indeed."

Laughable. Dooku has superior feats and accolades in every combative sense bar stamina.

"You're just helping me here." 

To cure you of your Maul fanboyism, hopefully. 

"That twi'lek Jedi Master is faster than TPM Sidious.... I see you're desperate enough to use Siolomanka now"

Calling the citing of evidence "desperation," then refusing to address said evidence, is pathetic. 

"Cut the crap please, no one said anything about Dooku is being on par with Siolomanka, your delusion is hilarious."

You are obviously incapable of following an argument. Not really a surprise. To spell it out, you claim Maul was capable of nearly beating Sidious, and thus, can beat Dooku. Now, ignoring the fact that Maul only did so with a massive rage amp, and when Sidious was vastly pre-prime, this entire feat being beyond Dooku, or even being legitimate, is completely invalidated by the fact that this same version of Maul that could allegedly compete with Sidious, was lolstomped by an obscure Jedi recluse. Jedi Dooku is an established top 3 swordsman in the Order, he is obviously superior to some hermit. So, with your scaling, we get:

Maul ~ Sidious < Siolo < Jedi Dooku  

See a problem?

"And now this troll claims Jedi Dooku is on par with Sidious let alone being better"

- Jedi Dooku is one of the most skilled and powerful Jedi in history

- Jedi Dooku is the third most skilled Jedi duelist in galactic history 

- Jedi Dooku is superior to all other Jedi in their power prime bar Mace and Yoda as of his tenure as a Jedi 

- Jedi Dooku can compete with pre-TPM Yoda in marvelous, "unforgettable" sparring matches 

- Jedi Dooku would have become Yoda's equal had he not turned to the Dark Side

- Jedi Dooku was considered by Darth Plagueis to be a suitable replacment for TPM Sidious 

But sure, let's pretend (older than Sidious) Jedi Dooku is weaker than ( younger than Dooku) Sidious five years away from TPM. Also:

- Jedi Dooku's inferior apprentice, Qui-Gon, was a near-equal to TPM Maul, with Plagueis even thinking Maul wouldn't be able to beat him

- with your stupid scaling, we get pre-TPM Maul ~ Sidious (allegedly are near equals) << Siolo (stomped that Maul) < TPM Maul (better than the Maul who was a near-equal to Sidious) ~ Qui-Gon (near-equal to TPM Maul) < Jedi Dooku < Count Dooku 

"Vader > Anakin > Dooku, according to several official sources"

I love how you say this but then post zero sources showing that Vader > Dooku. Moreover, again, don't care about those sources claiming Vader's potential increased with his injuries. Blatant contraction of GL's statements. Anakin lost his potential, plain and simple. Literally a massive, integral plot point in the entire 1-6 series. 

"Good, at least you're admitting that you don't care about the official sources because of your Dooku wankery? Ok I get it"

Somehow I knew you would single out that one line, and ignore the rationalisations following it. No matter, you haven't presented a rebuttal, so I don't need to present a counter. Predictable. 

"Are you laughing at an official source now"

Absolutely. Movies > your fanboy sources. 

"How many times do I need to educate you Dooku fans? ''Rage'' isn't an excuse for a Dark Sider, it's their usual state. Without their rage, they can't use the Dark Side, learn this basic rule before spreading nonsense. That's how Vader has become more powerful than Anakin."

That's asinine. Dark Siders are always drawing off their negative emotions. Literally how you access the power of the DS. But anyone and everyone can have their emotions increased beyond the norm. And that's an amp. By your logic, Kenobi was not amped on Florrum by his heightened focus. Concentration isn't an excuse for a Light Sider, It's their usual state. Without their focus, they can't use the Light Side, learn this basic rule before spreading nonsense. That's how Obi-Wan defeated Maul. 

"Dooku matches nothing, Yoda is a midget and he is the last top tier who can overwhelm his opponents unlike Mace Windu, Sidious or Maul can."

You saying he matches nothing is just you spouting lies and nothing more. An exhausted Dooku matches Yoda's strength right here:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/GyEzAnWFSkVh8rzk6

Yoda >>>>> Savage.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kx4Um2FtHHo5eTw36

https://photos.app.goo.gl/va1iHg8jiyd3mA857

^^ ROTS Yoda, weaker than his AOTC incarnation, overpowers ROTS Sidious in a bladelock, twice.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/m3dVq59uTAzs3uZG6

TCW Sidious, weaker than ROTS Sidious, casually overpowers Savage+Maul in a bladelock.

End of story. Dooku is stronger than Maul. Far stronger, in fact. 

"Dooku can't even match with TCW Anakin and Savage Opress, he is no match for Maul in terms strength." 

Those shows take a back seat to the films, bud. ROTS Dooku matches the strength of ROTS Obi-Wan+Anakin with one arm. AOTC Dooku while exhausted matches Yoda's strength in a bladelock. 

"Obi-Wan never ragdolled Maul and I am sure you don't know what ragdolling means troll. Pushing someone from behind isn't ragdolling."

Ahhhhh... NOW you want to acknowledge context. Double standards, double standards. So I'll just address this as you would if the positions were switched:

Lol you blind Maul fanboy, Kenobi stomped him, he sidestepped his attack and Force Pushed him away stop denying the official sources. 

"Oh no, I can hear you crying and denying this source as well.."

Translation: you are deceptively using a non-canon cutscene, and you've been exposed for doing so before, but you're gonna hide behind insults. 

"Btw, Obi-Wan was never amped against Dooku, unlike he always was against Maul (since Maul actually did something like killing Qui-Gon)."

Remember, it's not an amp! Kenobi is just using the Force, like anyone can. 

That said, prove it. All you've done is posted a quote saying emotions are influential, but you've demonstrated absolutely zero evidence that Kenobi ever let the incident with Qui-Gon influence his emotions aside from the Turtle Tanker duel, which HINDERED him. Filoni flat-out said that Kenobi later collected, readied and calmed himself. You're just lying, as is typical.

"Also none of your links are working, stop (primtive, unintelligent expletive omitted) and wasting my time."

Click on the gif once it loads. It won't play unless you press.

"Stop using those outdated and old sources and see the latest and the new source"

No. You desperately cling to those debunked, contradictory sources because you know that without them, Maul is simply out of his league. Dooku matches and surpasses Maul's best accolades with only his Jedi statements, absolutely humiliates Maul in feats regarding the Force, and has a boatload of superior saber feats.  

As per the film/show canon:

- Maul is trash in comparison to Sidious

- exhausted Dooku can fight Yoda to a standstill

- Yoda > Sidious 

-  Dooku >>>>> Maul

Simple. 

"Or you can accept Jeremy Barlow's statement where he says Maul beats Dooku 7 times out of 10, that's a new source as well"

This is absolutely hilarious, especially given that he attributes this to Maul's unwavering determination, not superior combat prowess. Guess what Barlow also says:

"[Maul's] power isn’t on Vader’s level, true, or even on Count Dooku’s level..."

-- Jeremy Barlow

So you just totaled your position. Your precious source doesn't even think Maul and Dooku are in the same tier, power-wise. And author statements aren't even set-in-stone fact.

@g_race:

Thanks for the support, appreciate it.

@phantomrant:

I respect your reasons and opinions, however I'd just like to point out that what happens in the official movies take precedence over all else, including the 2008 TCW show. In ROTS, Dooku matched the combined strength of Anakin+Obi-Wan using one arm. And in AOTC, he matched Yoda's strength while exhausted. A weaker version of Yoda has physically overpowered ROTS Sidious in a bladelock several times, and a weaker version of Sidious casually overpowered Savage+Maul in a bladelock. Now obviously Dooku isn't as strong as Yoda or Sidious, but I think it's pretty fair to say that Dooku would be physically stronger.

In regards to strength in the Force, Dooku prior to AOTC has effortlessly tossed around 215 meter Sith cruisers + an unknown amount of other ships ranging from 40-70 meters, iirc. Maul has no feats to match this.

I'll admit that Maul's potential to surpass Talzin and Sidious is pretty impressive, however it's been stated by objective sources that Dooku as a Jedi had the potential to equal TPM Yoda, who is 13 years more powerful than the Yoda in ROTS who was better than Sidious.

In terms of a duel, Dooku has matched Yoda for almost 40 seconds (an extremely impressive amount of time within the context of a typical Star Wars fight) despite already being exhausted. Maul was unable to legitmately compete with Sidious until he became amplified. Dooku only lost to Skywalker so quickly because he was fatigued beyond belief, unprepared for Skywalker's new strength, and the latter was significantly amped. Even then, the fight was even enough in its balance that Dooku still believed he held the upper hand (his lightsaber technique, Makashi, is a mostly defensive form) until Skywalker disarmed him. Plus, the original script confirms that it was an "intense" fight.

All-in-all, Maul gives Dooku a run for his money, but I do not think he can win.

@g_race: I'm deleting your unnecessarily inflammatory comments. If you make personal insults to another user again you're getting banned

Decided by multiple sources: Tyranus wins.

@juiceboks: Its Still Dooku. @erkanfan12 Flagged or not, still Dooku.

''Translation: you got trashed by real sources, couldn't handle it and you're living in denial again. Not surprised.''

You're the one denying the real new sources not me. :))

To think that you're desperate enough to go down and use Siolomanka in here...

''No. A massively amped Maul failed to kill Sidious who was half a decade away from TPM. This is especially hilarious given you later say this:''

No to you.

You can't bullshit about a ''rage amp'' when you're talking about the dark siders, learn the basic rules of Star Wars before trying to debate.

So, all you've that ridiculous excuse, nothing more.

''Oh... I see. We are treating subjective opinions as fact. Gotcha. Well, I can do that too:

"In adolescence, Dooku became the Padawan learner of Thame Cerulian, a Jedi scholar on the Council who called Dooku the finest swordsman he had ever seen."

-- Insider #113

Padawan Dooku > Yoda.''

It's not a subjective source when Sidious was clearly the greatest Sith lord who ever lived, while you're using a bullshit.

We all know Dooku is a tier 8, and Yoda is a tier 9, they are not even on the same level.

"...'Count Dooku's fall has troubled us all,' Obi-Wan acknowledged. 'Now we have a great and powerful enemy.' His thoughts turned to his battle with Dooku. He had never met such power in battle before. He had never come up against something that had completely overpowered him. Even meeting the Sith Lord who had killed Qui-Gon had not been the same."

-- Legacy of the Jedi

AOTC Dooku >>>>>>> TPM Maul according to that.''

Too old.

Another outdated source.

Use the new ones.

This source was long before Maul's revival in the Clone Wars.

They didn't even know Maul was powerful enough to survive a bisection by using the dark side.

Outdated sources also states Maul wasn't a lost and he wasn't even a Sith Lord. Are you going to use that OUTDATED sources now? :))

Darth Maul was a loss in the new sources, and Dooku was a proton torpedo, according to Sidious. And he is a more skilled swordsman than Dooku is. Even his apprentice Savage Opress bested him in combat. And later defeated by a newby Dark Sider Quinlan Vos, then stomped by a newby Dark Sider Anakin who is weaker than Darth Vader.

''Stalemating AOTC Yoda (who is better than ROTS Yoda who is better than ROTS Sidious) while exhausted is infinitely better than failing to beat a vastly pre-prime Sidious while massively amped.

"who wasn't even using the Force offensively against his former Jedi padawan Dooku."

100% incorrect:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7uiE9Ny1fUu2GFqw8

Funny how Yoda outright strains to hold off Dooku's lightning, yet the latter is able to easily and instantly deflect it when it was hurled back at him. Yoda is totally way more powerful, sure.''

Once again you're using outdated sources.

Some outdated sources contradicts with each other, but hell no you can't find any in the new ones. The new ones clearly states that Yoda is X2 times more powerful than Dooku. That's the end of it.

Yoda was simply redirecting Dooku's own attack, he never tried use a Force push on Dooku as he used on Sidious, who is at least x2 times than him as well.

''Literally the very definition of inane. Maul, with a massive rage amp, attacked his master while the latter was off-guard, still failed to kill him and still lost, and this Sidious was an incarnation five years prior to TPM. Dooku, on the other hand, while already exhausted, matched Yoda for almost 40 seconds, and still remained undefeated. And that Yoda was years superior to the Yoda who was better than ROTS Sidious. That version of Sidious > CW Sidious > AOTC Sidious > TPM Sidious > the Sidious Maul fought.

In short, an amped Maul failed to kill a vastly weaker Sidious than the Sidious Yoda was better than, that version of Yoda being weaker than the Yoda Dooku stalemated while exhausted.''

A: Rage isn't an amp for a darksider, that's why they are darksiders. It's one of the main rules of Star Wars kiddo. :))

B: Sidious not being on his prime is irrelevant. That's Sidious, still a top-tier, still can match with the likes of Plagueis or Yoda.

C: Dooku being exhausted against AotC Kenobi and AotC Anakin is so hilarious and that's only because Dooku is weaker than Maul, not for anything else. :))

D: Maul was wounded and starving, obviously in a worse condition, performed better against Sidious than Dooku performed against Yoda who was holding back against his former Jedi padawan, and Dooku used hostages to escape at the end.

Your arguments are weak and outdated as always.

''Good for him, superb stamina. But irrelevent. Laughable. Dooku has superior feats and accolades in every combative sense bar stamina. To cure you of your Maul fanboyism, hopefully.''

Hahaha.

Clearly this is a proof THAT you've lost it but still denying the truth.

You just admitted that Maul > Dooku in terms of stamina, but you think that doesn't apply to their Force reserves?

Sure, whatever makes you happy. :))

''You are obviously incapable of following an argument. Not really a surprise. To spell it out, you claim Maul was capable of nearly beating Sidious, and thus, can beat Dooku. Now, ignoring the fact that Maul only did so with a massive rage amp, and when Sidious was vastly pre-prime, this entire feat being beyond Dooku, or even being legitimate, is completely invalidated by the fact that this same version of Maul that could allegedly compete with Sidious, was lolstomped by an obscure Jedi recluse. Jedi Dooku is an established top 3 swordsman in the Order, he is obviously superior to some hermit. So, with your scaling, we get:

Maul ~ Sidious < Siolo < Jedi Dooku

See a problem?

"And now this troll claims Jedi Dooku is on par with Sidious let alone being better"

- Jedi Dooku is one of the most skilled and powerful Jedi in history

- Jedi Dooku is the third most skilled Jedi duelist in galactic history

- Jedi Dooku is superior to all other Jedi in their power prime bar Mace and Yoda as of his tenure as a Jedi

- Jedi Dooku can compete with pre-TPM Yoda in marvelous, "unforgettable" sparring matches

- Jedi Dooku would have become Yoda's equal had he not turned to the Dark Side

- Jedi Dooku was considered by Darth Plagueis to be a suitable replacment for TPM Sidious

But sure, let's pretend (older than Sidious) Jedi Dooku is weaker than ( younger than Dooku) Sidious five years away from TPM. Also''

Here how I debunk your pre-TPM fanboy theories;

Dooku was already in contact with the dark side before TPM and the Sith according to the new sources, and it means that Sidious was already planning to take Jedi Dooku as an INQUISITOR, or some kind of a special dark sider but not his as his real apprentice, since Maul was the real apprentice of Sidious. Sidious already knew about Dooku long before TPM. So it means that pre-TPM Sidious was both powerful enough to take Jedi Dooku as his own servant, and still keep Darth Maul as his real Sith apprentice.

Satisfied? :))

''I love how you say this but then post zero sources showing that Vader > Dooku. Moreover, again, don't care about those sources claiming Vader's potential increased with his injuries. Blatant contraction of GL's statements. Anakin lost his potential, plain and simple. Literally a massive, integral plot point in the entire 1-6 series.''

Vader's skills as a lightsaber user, and his abilities as a Force user obviously increased a lot after wearing that suit, he didn't forget his skills when he was Anakin, and he is more powerful due to cybernetics, and he has better Force reserves, and more powerful in the Force.

The new source already stated that Vader is even more skilled than Sidious.

Vader never lost his skills as a swordsman, on the contrary, it's natural to say that he is more skilled than Anakin as he is even more skilled than Sidious after wearing that armor.

And yeah, it also says Maul > Dooku which you deny it by using outdated sources.

''That's asinine. Dark Siders are always drawing off their negative emotions. Literally how you access the power of the DS. But anyone and everyone can have their emotions increased beyond the norm. And that's an amp. By your logic, Kenobi was not amped on Florrum by his heightened focus. Concentration isn't an excuse for a Light Sider, It's their usual state. Without their focus, they can't use the Light Side, learn this basic rule before spreading nonsense. That's how Obi-Wan defeated Maul.''

Kenobi's focus was heightened on Florrum because Adi Gallia died, and before that Qui-Gon. That's the difference. :))

''You saying he matches nothing is just you spouting lies and nothing more. An exhausted Dooku matches Yoda's strength right here:''

Hahaha. We already know Savage disarmed Dooku and bested him in combat, Yoda's style was never meant to be for physical strength, it's for speed and movement.

And even then, midget Yoda, the last top-tier who uses physical strength in duels, overpowers Dooku in a bladelock with a smile on his face. :))

If midget Yoda with a shorter lightsaber can do this, what Mace Windu and Sidious would do?

Another stomp like Anakin or gets disarmed easily, as Savage Opress disarmed Dooku.

''Absolutely. Movies > your fanboy sources.''

Dear troll, this is not a fanboy source...

After all, even Gillard clearly said Dooku is a tier 8, and Yoda is a tier 9. There is a clear difference between them. The new sources states that Yoda is 2 times more powerful. 2X TIMES. Yet somehow you believe Dooku could match with Yoda... :))

''TCW Sidious, weaker than ROTS Sidious, casually overpowers Savage+Maul in a bladelock.

End of story. Dooku is stronger than Maul. Far stronger, in fact.''

This is a really bad trolling attempt,

-Sidious isn't a midget

-He doesn't use a tiny lightsaber

He uses more physical strength in lightsaber combats in comparison with midget Yoda who utilizes Ataru which depends on acrobatic movements and agility.

And saying that TCW Sidious is weaker than RotS Sidious is completely baseless as well, not surprised since you're really really desperate right now. :))

''This is absolutely hilarious, especially given that he attributes this to Maul's unwavering determination, not superior combat prowess. Guess what Barlow also says:''

This is even better, :)) Jeremy Barlow believes Maul can beat Dooku for a majority even though he thinks Dooku is more powerful in the Force. Maul is clearly more skilled than him otherwise he can't fill the gap between in their Force powers.

Even then, as you just unwillingly admitted Maul's Force reserves > Dooku's Force reserves, he is stronger, and more skilled, and a very bad match-up for Dooku's own stubborn makashi as it was against Savage Opress.

Dooku loses badly in here, plain and simple.

All of them are outdated sources which was long before Maul's revival in the Clone Wars.

New sources: Maul clearly wins and takes the majority.

Why is TCW Maul being mentioned? This thread is TPM Maul vs Tyranus. And even including TCW Maul, Dookie still wins.

TCW is important to show that TPM Maul was strong enough to survive a bisection.

''This Zabrak was so strong with the Dark Side he survives being cut in two.''

- Starwars. com / Top 10 best villains

Pre-TCW sources didn't know that.

Pre-TCW sources even states that TPM Maul wasn't a loss for Sidious. Now the new sources states that TPM Maul was a loss to Sidious while Dooku was a proton torpedo.

AEYTKN Top 5 list is a post-TCW source, and it says Maul > Dooku as well. Includes every version.

@erkan12:

TCW is important to show that TPM Maul was strong enough to survive a bisection.

Pre-TCW sources didn't know that.

Their lack of knowledge on Maul's durability does not indicate a lack of knowledge on Maul's power and skill; that's a fallacy of composition. Maul's death being retconned in no way retcons his standing in juxtaposition to Dooku.

Pre-TCW sources even states that TPM Maul wasn't a loss for Sidious. Now the new sources states that TPM Maul was a loss to Sidious while Dooku was a proton torpedo.

It wasn't a loss, now that he had Anakin, no. But Dooku being a "proton torpedo" to Sidious' schemes doesn't mean he's worse than Maul.

AEYTKN Top 5 list is a post-TCW source, and it says Maul > Dooku as well. Includes every version.

I'm pretty sure that list(which is worthless anyways, but you cling to it) includes current versions, i.e. Canon TCW Maul and Dooku. It transfering over to TPM Maul is baseless.

Duh...

It's not durability. :))

Maul literally uses the Force to survive. Filoni even compared to Vader's survival.

''The Force is what holding his body together. So Vader holds on to life at the edge of the lava flow, because he is such a condemned for Obi-Wan, such an anger for whose happens in his life. And that same type of focus, hatred what sustains Maul.''- Dave Filoni, Director of Star Wars Rebels

He learned about Anakin after TPM.

Dooku was always there for Sidious before TPM, as a back-up plan or maybe as an inquisitor we don't know, the new sources states that Dooku was even a darksider before TPM, but not as a Sith apprentice, since Maul was better.

According to Sidious ; Anakin > Maul > Dooku always, he only used Dooku as a proton torpedo.

It says ''Darth'' Maul, it applies to TPM.

@erkan12:

"You're the one denying the real new sources not me"

Nope. I readily accept new sources, so long as they do not conflict with logic and higher lore. Your fanboy quotes that you mindlessly parrot contrast the film, and thus are worthless.

You claim I "deny" sources, well you deny the movies.

"To think that you're desperate enough to go down and use Siolomanka in here..."

Predictably, you dodged the counters presented and repeated yourself. So I'll just repeat myself too:

Calling the citing of evidence "desperation," then refusing to address said evidence, is pathetic.| You are obviously incapable of following an argument. Not really a surprise. To spell it out, you claim Maul was capable of nearly beating Sidious, and thus, can beat Dooku. Now, ignoring the fact that Maul only did so with a massive rage amp, and when Sidious was vastly pre-prime, this entire feat being beyond Dooku, or even being legitimate, is completely invalidated by the fact that this same version of Maul that could allegedly compete with Sidious, was lolstomped by an obscure Jedi recluse. Jedi Dooku is an established top 3 swordsman in the Order, he is obviously superior to some hermit. So, with your scaling, we get:

Maul ~ Sidious < Siolo < Jedi Dooku

See a problem?

"You can't (primitive, loutish expletive omitted) about a 'rage amp' when you're talking about the dark siders, learn the basic rules of Star Wars before trying to debate.| Rage isn't an amp for a darksider, that's why they are darksiders. It's one of the main rules of Star Wars kiddo"

Another lie. So Darth Maul, Sidious, Ventress, Savage, Malgus, etc... they all never use the Dark Side until they become enraged? Odd, since in 99% of their portrayals they aren't screaming in anger, yet they can still use the Dark Side. You are being dishonest on purpose. ANY CHANGE in emotion from someone's normal state, that results in an increase of power, is an amp. End of story. Doesn't matter what side of the Force you draw from. Obi-Wan's focus increased from his normal state, he got amped. Maul became enraged beyond what he formerly was, he got amped. It's simple, regardless of your blind fanboying.

"It's not a subjective source when Sidious was clearly the greatest Sith lord who ever lived, while you're using a (primitive, loutish expletive omitted)." 

So... let's get this straight. You say TPM Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever, and you bring up Plagueis' opinion as proof. I say his opinion is subjective, and you say it isn't because in your opinion TPM Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever. 10/10 logic there bud. You verify your statement by using Plagueis' opinion, and you verify Plagueis' opinion by using your statement. 

"We all know Dooku is a tier 8, and Yoda is a tier 9, they are not even on the same level." 

Only according to Nick Gillard, whose opinion is not fact. And this concept is contradicted by the movies. 

"Too old. Another outdated source. Use the new ones."

This is a retarded statement. I disprove your logic with evidence and the best you can say is "hurr durr this be old, use sources i want." 

"This source was long before Maul's revival in the Clone Wars."

Completely irrelevent, as this quote was referring to TPM Maul, not CW Maul. 

"They didn't even know Maul was powerful enough to survive a bisection by using the dark side."

Also completely irrelevent, as Kenobi was referring to how the two performed in a fight. Dooku 100% outclassed Kenobi in a way TPM Maul was incapable of replicating.

"Outdated sources also states Maul wasn't a lost and he wasn't even a Sith Lord. Are you going to use that OUTDATED sources now?" 

In other words, you claim my sources are wrong because... other sources are wrong? More 10/10 logic.

"Darth Maul was a loss in the new sources, and Dooku was a proton torpedo, according to Sidious."

This too is completely irrelevent. 

"And he is a more skilled swordsman than Dooku is."

False in every conceivable way.

 "Even his apprentice Savage Opress bested him in combat."

Okay, then TPM Kenobi > Maul:

"Maul pressed his advantage, wearing down Qui-Gon's defenses and ultimately killing the Jedi Master. Obi-Wan then defeated Maul, but nothing could save Qui-Gon."

-- StarWars.com: Databank

"The Sith fought with blinding speed and impressive agility, and stabbed Jinn through with his red double-bladed lightsaber; he would prove unable to best Obi-Wan, however."

-- StarWars.com: Databank

"Together, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fended off the Sith Lord's attacks, but as the battle progressed, Master and apprentice became separated. Maul pressed his advantage, wearing down Qui-Gon's defenses and ultimately killing the Jedi Master. Obi-Wan then defeated Maul, but nothing could save Qui-Gon."

-- StarWars.com: Databank(old)

"And later defeated by a newby Dark Sider Quinlan Vos,"

Who cares? That just makes Quinlan Vos better than Yoda, who failed to do that in a longer duel against a weaker Dooku. Maul is fodder to Sidious, and by default, Yoda.

"then stomped by a newby Dark Sider Anakin who is weaker than Darth Vader."

Factually incorrect:

"Anakin and Dooku continue their fight. It is intense!"

-- Revenge of the Sith: Original Script

"Once again you're using outdated sources"

The movie "Attack of the Clones" is an outdated source? You have officially attained the height of bias. 

"Some outdated sources contradicts with each other, but hell no you can't find any in the new ones. The new ones clearly states that Yoda is X2 times more powerful than Dooku. That's the end of it."

Nope. As per the movie, Yoda visibly strains to hurl back Dooku's lightning, which by contrast is deflected easily. 

"Yoda was simply redirecting Dooku's own attack, he never tried use a Force push on Dooku as he used on Sidious, who is at least x2 times than him as well."

No, Yoda deliberately chose to fire the lightning back at Dooku, as opposed to simply absorbing it as he did later when Dooku broke off his attack. He used the Force offensively against Dooku, and was actually outperformed. But sure, let's pretend that there is somehow a massive gap between the two according to some little kid source. 

"Sidious not being on his prime is irrelevant."

I don't even need to explain how inane this statement is. 

"That's Sidious, still a top-tier, still can match with the likes of Plagueis or Yoda."

So Plagueis > DE Sidious? He outclassed teenaged Sidious, and you just said it doesn't matter if Sidious was in his prime or not. So there we have it folks, Plagueis is the greatest Dark Sider ever. 

"Dooku being exhausted against AotC Kenobi and AotC Anakin is so hilarious and that's only because Dooku is weaker than Maul, not for anything else"

So, having superior stamina = being superior? Gotcha. Savage Opress > CW Sidious, Qui-Gon < TPM Kenobi. So much 10/10 logic today.

"Maul was wounded and starving, obviously in a worse condition"

Completely overruled by the fact that he was massively amped. 

"performed better against Sidious than Dooku performed against Yoda"

Nope. Maul nearly bested Sidious? Yoda failed to do that against an exhausted Dooku. They stalemated. Dooku performed better than Sidious did. 

"who was holding back against his former Jedi padawan"

And of course you continue to make things up.

"and Dooku used hostages to escape at the end."

Irrelevent. 

"Hahaha. Clearly this is a proof THAT you've lost it but still denying the truth. You just admitted that Maul > Dooku in terms of stamina, but you think that doesn't apply to their Force reserves?"

The idea of reserves having anything to do with this is absolutely moronic. By this logic Savage has greater reserves than Sidious. No, being exhausted when someone else isn't, just means your cardiovascular system is inferior in its conditioning. Nothing more, nothing less. 

"Dooku was already in contact with the dark side before TPM and the Sith according to the new sources, and it means that Sidious was already planning to take Jedi Dooku as an INQUISITOR, or some kind of a special dark sider but not his as his real apprentice, since Maul was the real apprentice of Sidious. Sidious already knew about Dooku long before TPM. So it means that pre-TPM Sidious was both powerful enough to take Jedi Dooku as his own servant, and still keep Darth Maul as his real Sith apprentice." 

So the entirety of your argument hinges on Sidious' opinion? LoL. Nope, sorry, according to the "new sources," Jedi Dooku regularly competes with Yoda.  

"The new source already stated that Vader is even more skilled than Sidious."

Which of course, completely contradicts all other valid lore.

"And yeah, it also says Maul > Dooku which you deny it by using outdated sources."

Nope, you're just denying the canon sources. According to TCW and AOTC, Dooku > Maul.

"Kenobi's focus was heightened on Florrum because Adi Gallia died, and before that Qui-Gon. That's the difference"

And? Doesn't matter why. Focus, concentration, these are how you use the Light Side. Just like with rage and anger with the Dark Side. So, according to you, this is base, regular Kenobi.

"Hahaha. We already know Savage disarmed Dooku and bested him in combat"

While I could debunk this, I'll just take the shorter route. Movies > TV show. An exhausted Dooku is comparable in Yoda to strength. 

"Yoda's style was never meant to be for physical strength, it's for speed and movement."

Completely irrelevent, because this was a strength-against-strength simple bladelock. 

"And even then, midget Yoda, the last top-tier who uses physical strength in duels, overpowers Dooku in a bladelock with a smile on his face." 

Nope. Never happened to that degree in the movie. Stop using sources that make things up.

"If midget Yoda with a shorter lightsaber can do this, what Mace Windu and Sidious would do?"

What the heck does the length of his blade have to do with anything? Or his size? They were pressing their lightsabers against each other from the SIDE, rendering height and length completely irrelevent:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JPkHjCUCDPgBU5rL6

In fact, if anything, Dooku was at the disadvantage here, as Yoda had his arms in front of him and simply had to push forward, while Dooku lacked that leverage, instead having to operate from a side-point. And then he maintained that position with ONE ARM while using the Force to topple a crane, without even looking at Yoda.

Ignoring most of what follows as it is merely regurgitated nonsense I've already addressed.

"And saying that TCW Sidious is weaker than RotS Sidious is completely baseless as well, not surprised since you're really really desperate right now."

Gotcha. Like 99% of the main characters of the era continually grow in power throughout the PT(including people older than Sidious and with less talent), and both Jedi and Sith alike are stated in general to always be progressing in their prowess, but yeah sure let's pretend that Sidious is the sole exception.

"This is even better, :)) Jeremy Barlow believes Maul can beat Dooku for a majority even though he thinks Dooku is more powerful in the Force. Maul is clearly more skilled than him otherwise he can't fill the gap between in their Force powers." 

No, you're being disingenuous again. Barlow attributes Maul's majority to his sheer determination, because "he won't quit till he's out." Nowhere is skill mentioned.

Maul has no way of winning this whatsoever. Even Jedi Dooku has matched and surpassed all of Maul's best accolades, and Dooku while exhausted has stalemated Yoda. Meanwhile Maul was trashed by weaker foes. Dooku has contended with Yoda's speed, and in a hindered and fatigued state demonstrated comparability strength-wise with Yoda. Dooku has far greater feats in terms of the Force, and is lauded by various sources as more powerful than Maul.

In short, Dooku is just more skilled, more powerful, more experienced, stronger, and faster.

@erkan12: Duh...

It's not durability. :)

Maul literally uses the Force to survive. Filoni even compared to Vader's survival.

Whatever it is, you're clinging to a fallacy of composition to make it work. Explain to me how Maul managing to survive suddenly completely retcons quotes that place him below Dooku.

He learned about Anakin after TPM.

Did you not watch The Phantom Menace? lol Sidious met Annie before Maul's demise and said he'd monitor his progress closely.

Dooku was always there for Sidious before TPM, as a back-up plan or maybe as an inquisitor we don't know, the new sources states that Dooku was even a darksider before TPM, but not as a Sith apprentice, since Maul was better.

Dooku wasn't fully converted to the Dark Side until Qui-Gon Jinn's death. And Plagueis wanted Dooku to be a replacement for Sidious, once he met him lol. I guess Plagueis thinks Dooku is > Sheev, so Tyranus > Sidious > Maul now. Except it doesn't work like that.

And I can just as easily flip this and claim that Sidious could've taken back Maul in TCW, but didn't because he replaced him with Dooku. If Maul was > Dooku, Sheev would take back Maul as an enforcer, but apparently he didn't.

According to Sidious ; Anakin > Maul > Dooku always, he only used Dooku as a proton torpedo.

So Dooku was a victim of circumstance. You're grasping at straws.

It says ''Darth'' Maul, it applies to TPM.

Maul was still a "Darth" by TCW. If you wanna apply to all versions, I guess that means teen Maul is > Jedi Dooku, or baby Maul is > Darth Tyranus. Mental gymnastics aside, Dooku is better than Maul and that's the truth. :D

Im not sure why people are trying to play mental Gymnastics of Dooku being totally inferior to Yoda.

Canon Sources

Read carefully, stated in writing " Calls on the Force to fight the Sith Lord to a draw." Yeah that sounds like Yoda was leaps and bounds superior.

Stated again in current canon Ecyclopedias that Dooku and and Yoda had a stated "titanic struggle of Force powers" with he first quote stating flat out "Neither besting the other." Yeah again really paints a picture of Yoda dominating Dooku, no wait its the opposite.

Legends Sources

In the novel version of the fight, Dooku and Yoda locked blades, with the quote stating "in a contest of strength, physical and in the Force" Yet Yoda not only congrats Dooku but only able to force Dooku back by a little. Unable to easily beat him at all.

Stated here flat out, "Yoda skills were really put to the test" and "The match ended in a stalemate." Stated in another quote "Yoda and Dooku were almost equals." Yeah that screams huge power gap lmao.

Another Legends quote states "They were too evenly match" when talking the force battle they had. Hmmm... I see a pattern here.

Conclusions

Dooku is in 3 sources of canon sources, and in several sources of Legends canon a near equal or flat out match for Yoda in Force and Dueling abilities. This is after Dooku fought Obi and Anakin to before hand which many forget. Anyone trying to say otherwise just shows they are not only misinform, but clearly ignorant or raging SW fan for maul in this fight.

^^

I honestly dislike the use of secondary sources when discussing fights given secondary sources have repeatedly been shown to be inaccurate (e.g. Yoda vs Sidious) when compared to the primary material. Although I do agree with the idea that Dooku can put up a fight against Yoda.

@tourneymaster: Those supposed canon sources are actually non-canon, for Attack of the Clones: the Expanded Visual Dictionary -to which the first quote you presented belongs- and The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia -to which the second and third quote belong- both predate the Disney acquisition.

Maul, bois.

Dooku gets mauled and unarmed, all puns intended.

Dooku wins.

#723 Posted by LichVanAstrea (280 posts) - Less than a minute ago - Show Bio

Dooku wins.

Maybe in one of his dreams, but not in reality, be it canon or legends.

I don't see how he's losing to Maul. He's taken down Obi Wan multiple times, someone who has consistently beaten Maul in duels. Dooku shouldn't have much issue with Maul.

@lichvanastrea said:

Maul is more powerful than Obi-Wan at the time of TPM (Which is the only time where Obi-Wan actually killed or came close to killing Maul). While Dooku did beat Obi-Wan, you also need to take into account the circumstances. First, Maul is much faster than Obi-Wan and in fact uses his acrobatics to his advantage. If he can tire out the Count like Anakin did in ROTS, it's over for him. Second, Obi-Wan won due to the fact that Maul was cocky, not that he was better. Maul won the duel up until that point, because he was Tier 8 while Obi-Wan (TPM) was Tier 7 right up until ROTS. Finally, Dooku trained Qui-Gon who trained Obi-Wan and thus would have some knowledge of his style [Citation NOT Needed]. I doubt Dooku actually fought a guy with a double-bladed lightsaber, which is deadly if it has the element of surprise. You can't use ABC Logic unless it's about power, but it isn't in this case.

However, what is decisive is this:

Since the owners of Star Wars themselves list Maul as being superior to Dooku, he wins by default, in canon that is.

I'm not even referring to the fight in TPM. Literally, every fight that Obi Wan and Maul had in the TCW, Obi Wan always won. And Maul at that point saw how dangerous Obi Wan truly was.

@antifreddykrueger said:

However, what is decisive is this:

Since the owners of Star Wars themselves list Maul as being superior to Dooku, he wins by default, in canon that is.

This list has been debunked multiple times and shouldn't be taken seriously in the first place. Vader being above Sidious is asinine.

@lichvanastrea said:

@antifreddykrueger said:

@lichvanastrea said:

@antifreddykrueger said:

Maybe in one of his dreams, but not in reality, be it canon or legends.

I don't see how he's losing to Maul. He's taken down Obi Wan multiple times, someone who has consistently beaten Maul in duels. Dooku shouldn't have much issue with Maul.

Maul is more powerful than Obi-Wan at the time of TPM (Which is the only time where Obi-Wan actually killed or came close to killing Maul). While Dooku did beat Obi-Wan, you also need to take into account the circumstances. First, Maul is much faster than Obi-Wan and in fact uses his acrobatics to his advantage. If he can tire out the Count like Anakin did in ROTS, it's over for him. Second, Obi-Wan won due to the fact that Maul was cocky, not that he was better. Maul won the duel up until that point, because he was Tier 8 while Obi-Wan (TPM) was Tier 7 right up until ROTS. Finally, Dooku trained Qui-Gon who trained Obi-Wan and thus would have some knowledge of his style [Citation NOT Needed]. I doubt Dooku actually fought a guy with a double-bladed lightsaber, which is deadly if it has the element of surprise. You can't use ABC Logic unless it's about power, but it isn't in this case.

I'm not even referring to the fight in TPM. Literally, every fight that Obi Wan and Maul had in the TCW, Obi Wan always won. And Maul at that point saw how dangerous Obi Wan truly was.

@antifreddykrueger said:

However, what is decisive is this:

Since the owners of Star Wars themselves list Maul as being superior to Dooku, he wins by default, in canon that is.

This list has been debunked multiple times and shouldn't be taken seriously in the first place. Vader being above Sidious is asinine.

How the hell you can ''debunk'' a list? :)) It's not a theory or an argument? It's a canon list. It's a lightsaber only list, Vader can be a better swordsman than Sidious, but he is weaker than Sidious due to the Force abilities. Windu and Yoda would probably rank higher than Sidious too as swordsmen, but Sidious is stronger than them overall.

Also, Dooku didn't kill Obi-Wan's master Qui-Gon. Maul did. Don't you think Obi-Wan should be amped against Maul while fighting against him? Unlike when he fights against Dooku? Amplification are very important in SW, even Rey with zero lightsaber training defeated Kylo Ren because of an amplification.

Even then Maul disarmed amped Kenobi in Episode I, and Kenobi cheap-shotted him. Maul defeated Kenobi in TCW S4 Turtle Tanker duel, and then fought equally with him in TCW S5 Florrum duel until Adi Gallia died and he got amped again. Then defeated him in Mandalore and captured him and killed his girlfriend Satine in front of him. So as you can see, despite Obi-Wan's special amplification due to Qui-Gon's death, not always Kenobi wins against Maul.

@lichvanastrea said:

@antifreddykrueger said:

@lichvanastrea said:

@antifreddykrueger said:

Maybe in one of his dreams, but not in reality, be it canon or legends.

I don't see how he's losing to Maul. He's taken down Obi Wan multiple times, someone who has consistently beaten Maul in duels. Dooku shouldn't have much issue with Maul.

Maul is more powerful than Obi-Wan at the time of TPM (Which is the only time where Obi-Wan actually killed or came close to killing Maul). While Dooku did beat Obi-Wan, you also need to take into account the circumstances. First, Maul is much faster than Obi-Wan and in fact uses his acrobatics to his advantage. If he can tire out the Count like Anakin did in ROTS, it's over for him. Second, Obi-Wan won due to the fact that Maul was cocky, not that he was better. Maul won the duel up until that point, because he was Tier 8 while Obi-Wan (TPM) was Tier 7 right up until ROTS. Finally, Dooku trained Qui-Gon who trained Obi-Wan and thus would have some knowledge of his style [Citation NOT Needed]. I doubt Dooku actually fought a guy with a double-bladed lightsaber, which is deadly if it has the element of surprise. You can't use ABC Logic unless it's about power, but it isn't in this case.

I'm not even referring to the fight in TPM. Literally, every fight that Obi Wan and Maul had in the TCW, Obi Wan always won. And Maul at that point saw how dangerous Obi Wan truly was.

@antifreddykrueger said:

However, what is decisive is this:

Since the owners of Star Wars themselves list Maul as being superior to Dooku, he wins by default, in canon that is.

This list has been debunked multiple times and shouldn't be taken seriously in the first place. Vader being above Sidious is asinine.

All other encounters weren't as decisive, which is why I never bothered to mention them, and also because Obi-Wan never 1v1d Maul elsewhere. Regardless, Maul was stated to be a Tier-8 whereas Obi-Wan was a Tier-7 throughout the Clone Wars until ROTS. Hence, Maul > Obi-Wan in a normal fight that has no outside factors, which TCW had. Maul and Dooku however were stated to be of the same Tier tho (Tier 8).

Exactly how was it debunked? This is a direct statement by the owners of Star Wars as to who's more powerful than who, it is as serious a statement as you can get. Whether you like it or not, if the creator/owner of something says X, it's true and factual. Also, keep in mind that this is for canon and not Legends, where Sidious would kill Vader, especially DE Sidious.

@erkan12: This is also a valid argument, but canon Vader was more powerful than Sidious, and not just because of this list.

A list that no one but you takes seriously.

I don't know what you are talking about, because I never said Dooku killed Qui Gon, nor did I even bring up the fight in TPM.

Again, I don't know why you're bringing up Episode I.

He didn't beat him on his own. He and Savage ambushed him.

What amp did he get? All that happened was that he took her lightsaber and was able to duel both Maul and Savage on his own. He even cut off Savage's arm. Clearly, he and Maul were not equal in that fight.

He disarmed Obi Wan who just got dazed out from the ship that the Mandalorians blew up. You are deliberately taking things out of context to make it look like Maul was always Kenobi's equal, when in fact he never was.

What do you mean they weren't as decisive? And yes, you're right that Obi Wan never 1v1d Maul during TCW, because most of the time, Maul was accompanied by Savage. Then later in Rebels, Obi Wan puts him in his place. Maul never bested Obi Wan in an actual 1v1 duel.

Considering that a lot of people except you and this Erkan guy don't take this list seriously, I can safely say it's been debunked. Especially since this is the same list that states Vader >>> Sidious, a statement that is contradicted in literally in any Star Wars media.

I know more about their feats/accolades now since the last time I posted in both Lucas/Disney canon and Legends, and still stand by Maul winning in the canon realm for the same reasons I posted.

Maul in the TPM won against Obi-Wan, 1v1, without any shenanigans involved, by disarming (no, not that disarmament...) Obi-Wan and Force Pushing him into the reactor shaft. That's technically an incapacitate win, and Obi-Wan had no choice but to jump, which was a very risky option; that's why it even surprised Maul in the first place. Maul was accompanied by Savage, yes, but Obi-Wan was also accompanied most of the time, which changed the dynamics of the fight. Not to mention, Obi-Wan was still Tier 7 while Maul was Tier 8, so he is still confirmed to be better. In Rebels, it was simply one mistake really that cost it for Maul. Ray Park even explains that they were going for Samurai style there.

That's quite irrelevant, as it is a canon list; meaning, it's officially valid. It's as valid as Lucas saying Anakin could have been twice as powerful as the Emperor. Whether you think the list doesn't do the characters justice is irrelevant (full disclosure: Dooku is imo a better character than Maul), it's what it is. That's not what debunking means, btw. Debunking would be something like Disney releasing a new statement/list that contradicts this one. Also, please provide any citations of Vader > Sidious being contradicted in any Star Wars media. I can provide you other citations of the contrary, though.

Funny, because last I checked, Maul was not the last one standing in that duel. Nor was Obi Wan the one falling down with his legs cut off. What's even more funny is that would have been the only duel he would have legitimately won, had he not gotten arrogant.

No he wasn't. The only time he ever had help was when he was duel both Maul and Savage in the Turtle Tanker with Ventress. Every other fight he had with Maul, he's been able to handle on his own.

What tier list are you going by exactly?

Still does not ignore the fact that Maul lost that fight. And I really do not care what Ray Park has to say, considering that he's just an actor.

If you want to go by a list that states Vader > Sidious instead of what's actually shown to you in the movies, comics or shows, by all means, go ahead. But just know that the next time you bring that list up again, no one except Erkan is going to acknowledge it.

By the way, seeing that you're bringing up what Lucas said regarding Anakin being twice more powerful than Sidious, you mind bringing up about what he said regarding how he lost 20% of that power and his power was only 80% of Sidious's?

@lichvanastrea: That's the point, he had that duel won. Also, I never said Maul was the last one standing, you did, so you strawmaned my point, which was that Maul had beat Obi-Wan fair and square. The only reason he lost is due to plot his arrogance. He was simply too cocky at the moment. Vader managed to kill Sidious because he was too arrogant, that doesn't mean that Vader would kill Sidious in any other circumstance.

And that time with Adi Gallia, and that time where he decided to lock him away instead of killing him. I have no idea what you're talking about, please elaborate.

Nick Gillard's 2005 Revenge of the Sith Behind the Scenes List, making it G-Canon. It's by no means complete, but it contains the major players. Tier 1 = Younglings. Tier 7 = TPM Obi-Wan, AOTC Anakin, Kit Fisto Tier 8 = Dooku, Maul, ROTS Obi-Wan Tier 8.5 = Mace Tier 9 = Yoda, Anakin and The Senate.

But that was also Dave Filoni's explanation. Do you really think Old-Man Kenobi at the age of 55 beat Maul because he really is that better (Do you believe that)? He won because Maul was arrogant (hence the Samurai explanation), and to be honest, I don't know if Ben Kenobi is still a Tier 8 or if Maul from Rebels is still one. Isn't it ironic how you accept this at face value but not the list I provided you, which is just as canon? Arrogance can cost you battles, see Sauron vs Isildur in LOTR for proof.

If the owners explain and clarify things, then it absolutely does count if said movies, comics et al. don't make a statement to the contrary. Vader even TK'd Sidious right after he got out of his cuffs! It makes perfect sense for him (in canon) to be more powerful. If Disney flat out came out and said: "Maul would beat Dooku in a fight," would you agree that it's settled then?

Sure, but you see, there's no contradiction. That statement is still canon, yes, but, unlike old canon, new canon has no hierarchy, which means new > old if there's a contradiction. That's not the case with Legends where if George said it, it's pretty much impossible to retcon unless George says something else. I don't think Vader would even stand a chance against Sidious in Legends, btw.

Tyrannus.

In legends, Dooku one-shots with the Force. His best feats (his lightning was able to pressure Yoda, and he casually, effortlessly tossed around a 215 meter Sith cruiser from a distance, while concealing himself, and while years pre-prime) make Maul's pale in comparison.

He wins a saber duel too. He held his own against Yoda himself for nearly 40 entire seconds while exhausted, which surpasses anything Maul has done in legends. Plus, he has statements directly placing him over a prime Maul in legends.

As for canon, there are statements out there that would say Maul prevails, however in canon, Maul was fodder to Sidious, while Dooku was clearly comparable to Yoda. Solid, valid feats always take precedence over accolades, so I'd wager that Dooku wins here too.

You literally said Maul won the duel, but somehow I'm strawmanning. But I do love how you're using Obi Wan at a time where he wasn't even at his prime.

Who got killed then Obi Wan managed to beat both Savage and Maul on his own.

Literally the same exact fight I was talking about.

So far, you've been giving me fights where Maul never beat Obi Wan in a 1v1 ever since TPM.

Nick Gillard is only a stunt coordinator. He doesn't have a say when it comes to the actual story of the characters. Also, this list says Obi Wan as of ROTS is in the same tier as Maul, something that contradicts what you had stated earlier.

Considering that Maul's never beaten him before, yes.

Still does not ignore the fact that Maul lost. And I find it hilarious that his arrogance once again led him to his downfall. Something that Dooku would definitely take advantage of.

I'll take Filoni's words any day over that list that contradicts what's established in the movies and shows, lol.

Well so far, no one at Disney has clarified anything, so once again, that list means very little.

Yeah, for like a brief time where Sidious was caught off guard. Afterwards, Sidious proceeded to shock him and Vader couldn't do anything about it, until he stopped.

Sure. But right now, no one at Disney has said such a thing.

So if Lucas' statement is still canon, then Vader being > Sidious is false, making that list bullshit. Hence the contradiction.

Nope, you said that I said that Maul was the last man standing, when my point was that until Obi-Wan came out of nowhere with an RKO, Maul had him beat. Hence, you strawmaned my point.

Yeah, by severing Opress' arms and thus compelling Maul to retreat. Either way, it wasn't 1v1, so you can't take that as absolute proof. Outside circumstances can and will influence a duel.

That's because there were no 1v1 fights other than the one in TPM (which Maul won) and that one in Rebels (Which Ben won because he cheap-shotted an arrogant Maul). You were the one to bring up fights from TCW and Rebels, not me. He doesn't even have to beat Kenobi 1v1 since we know he's more powerful than him up until ROTS Kenobi where it could go either way.

He does, because his word was endorsed by the makers of the movies, thus it's perfectly valid and canon. It's not just someone's opinion, it's the opinion of an entire company. His classification does count, and there are no contradictions as I always said that Kenobi < Maul up until Revenge of the Sith.

He did once when no outside factors were involved, and was stated by the creators themselves to be more powerful than Kenobi (again, until ROTS).

Maul had arrogance in TPM because he bested a Padawan right after killing his master. Maul had arrogance in Rebels because he was fighting an old man who hasn't fought him in 17 years, and also due to wanting revenge blindly. Dooku isn't a padawan, he is ranked (rightfully so) as one of the deadliest combatants in Star Wars, Maul won't underestimate him. There's also no prior bad blood between Dooku and Maul so you can eliminate the blind rage factor. Maul will approach him like he approached Qui-Gon (who he won against).

They're both the words of the creators and since there's no hierarchy of canon, they're equally as valid.

That list is considered canon tho and thus is a direct statement by Disney.

Duh, shocking Vader is ofc gonna' make him weak, that's his whole weakness. Vader also didn't have any means to protect himself, he only just got out of his cuffs, no lightsaber, nothing. Meanwhile, Sidious did, he saw what happened to the droids crushed in the room, he was resisting that, wasn't he?

They just did with my list that is considered canon and thus valid.

No, because in new canon, there's no hierarchy, meaning canon if contradicted simply gets replaced. If Lucas said something that's now contradicted by recent material, it's no longer valid. Only in Legends is Lucas' word true and unrefutable, but we're discussing Canon, not Legends here.

Who is everyone? It's not my problem if people are biased towards some characters like Sidious or Dooku, they love grandpas, that's ok. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the new canon list where it says Maul is more skilled than Dooku as a lightsaber user. Also be honest and stop lying, I am not the only one using the list in here, as you can see you're discussing with another person right now and he uses the list also.

Asajj Ventress was helping Kenobi, and Savage mostly fight with Asajj, while Maul fought with Kenobi in the Turtle Tanker. Stop making up excuses now.

If they were not equals, then Maul couldn't ragdoll Kenobi twice in Florrum, and Kenobi wouldn't let Savage to kill Adi Gallia, if you think Kenobi was superior to Maul, and he wasn't superior to Maul even with an amplification due to killing Kenobi's own master Qui-Gon Jinn.

Kenobi still had enough consciousness to use the Force to save Satine from a burning piece of the spaceship and he activated his lightsaber before Maul uses the Force on him in Mandalore, again you're making up excuses when it comes Maul's accomplishments.

The list doesn't say Vader > Sidious.

The list says Vader as a swordsman > Sidious as a swordsman. There is nothing wrong with this. Windu as a swordsman > Sidious as a swordsman too. That doesn't mean Sidious isn't more powerful than Windu.

The list says Maul as a swordsman > Dooku as a swordsman.

If you're saying he had him beat and won the duel fair and square, you're essentially saying he was the last one standing. So no, I'm not strawmanning.

What outside influence he had? He only had two lightsabers and that was it. Maul couldn't even beat him when Obi Wan was on his own, he had to BFR. What makes you think Maul would have a better chance in a 1v1 duel?

I'm bringing up TCW and Rebels because that's literally where all their encounters happen, lol. And during those times, not once did Maul ever beat Obi Wan on his own. So no, this idea of Maul being more powerful than Obi Wan is not true.

No he doesn't. Lucas only told him how to choreograph the fights in the prequel movies. He doesn't have a say on the actual characters themselves when it comes to the story. He's nothing more than just a stunt coordinator.

I'm pretty sure the tier system you just told me about said this;

So no, you are contradicting yourself.

Again, what outside influences? And Dave Filoni never said Maul was more powerful than Obi Wan, unless you could prove it.

You clearly forgot about this encounter then: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_mpFZO6VP3o/U88vcEOQFwI/AAAAAAAELa0/GD3v2UHqIJc/s1600/-006.jpg

Maul has always been arrogant to others, no matter who he's actually dealing with.

No, they're not the creators, George Lucas is.

A list that has been contradicted by numerous sources. Again, take it with a grain of salt. Even Matt Martin says not to take it seriously.

Sidious didn't have anything to protect himself in that room with either, so idk what you are talking about.

At this point, you're just beating a damn horse with this list.

So the man who created those characters and established them the way they are in his movies, suddenly his words no longer matter. Lol.

You're one to talk about bias. And yes, you're not the only one. Another person who carries the same asinine logic as you is using it too. I'm pretty many users in the past have told you to stop taking that list seriously.

I know that. I never said Asajj Ventress wasn't there to help him. You are putting words in my mouth now.

And Maul couldn't beat Obi Wan, so yeah.

What ragdoll? He had to BFR him because he couldn't even beat him with Savage's help when Obi Wan was on his own. And again, why do you keep bringing up that fight from Episode I? This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

He did not have enough consciousness. He could barely stand properly and didn't even get the chance to do anything before Maul restrained him. You are the one here making up excuses. Maul's accomplishments, yeah, by catching him off guard with missiles, lol.

Which is not true.

Also not true.

I know you love Maul and have this much hatred for Dooku every time you see someone says Dooku would beat him. But that's just the cold harsh reality we're living in now.

Nope, there's a difference. Having him beat simply means that Maul outdueled Kenobi, but that doesn't mean that he was the last man standing. Kenobi didn't win because of his superior lightsaber skills, he won due to luck, and that's it. Anyone else in Maul's position wouldn't have got as cocky and would have killed Kenobi the moment he jumped. Strawman it is.

He did tho, in TPM. Either way, outside factors could be that Obi-Wan's attention may be focused on Savage moreso than Maul, or simply having two lightsabers when Obi-Wan only has one normally, or Maul being blinded by rage, or th-

Need I go on? In a perfectly normal, 1v1 duel with Kenobi amplified nonetheless, he beat him, but got cocky and didn't want to finish the job. He paid the price and lost.

You conveniently forget TPM, or that Kenobi never became an 8 until ROTS meaning he was a 7 from TPM to ROTS, or that Maul was an 8 all along. TCW duels aren't a great showing as there are a lot of variables to take into account. Even Rebels isn't that accurate since Maul by that time was purely focused on revenge and that played a part. Also, neither does Obi-Wan beat Maul on his own, he either retreats, forces Maul to retreat (not by beating him, mind you) or does beat him by luck.

Lucas told him how to choreograph the fights, meaning when it comes to a character's ability with a lightsaber (ie; fighting...), he is the main authority other than Lucas ofc when it comes to that. That's the whole point of a stunt choreographer, he is supposed to regulate how a character reacts, fights, etc. His statements were thus officially approved and endorsed as his portrayals of the characters were showcased in the movies.

No? Even with your own 'evidence,' you prove me right! I said that Maul > Kenobi up untilROTS, and I give you ROTS Obi-Wan being of the same tier as Maul. How is that even a contradiction?

Depending on the fight. In Rebels, Obi-Wan was calm, collective and cool and had the high ground while Maul was angry, arrogant, and blinded by revenge. These are not normal circumstances, whereas TPM fight was perfectly normal. Maul had no hard feelings against Obi-Wan, he simply did his job and outdueled him. Also, I can't prove something I never said. Filoni made no comments about that in the first place.

He wasn't when facing Qui-Gon (twice) and wasn't when facing Obi-Wan (up until he force-pushed him into the reactor shaft). Maul isn't gonna' underestimate a man who he knows beat Kenobi and also is Sidious' apprentice. He'll be prideful but not arrogant.

They're the creators of the new content of Star Wars, that was the meaning behind my sentence.

Which sources say that Sidious > Vader? Actually, better idea; where does Matt Martin say that that list shouldn't be taken seriously/isn't canon?

He was though, he could have resisted just like he did when Vader was smashing up the place early on. Him being TK'd by Vader is simply another proof that Vader > Sidious. Oh, and the TFA Visual Dictionary also says that's true, so yet even more proof to support my assertion.

The Word of God is all I need to support my views, so you'd forgive me for touting it so much.

Not in new canon that is, Lucas by this point is just a shadow in Star Wars. Blame Disney if you like but that's how new canon works; I go by the rules. There's no high/low canon anymore.

So, what happened to no one but me? You were lying about it because of your Dooku bias then? Alright move on.

If you know Asajj was helping Kenobi why did you say Maul wasn't alone? Stop joking around.

Maul defeated Kenobi in Turtle Tanker duel, Filoni and other sources confirmed that.

''But eventually they gonna lose in that space, in that situation, and they needed to flee..''

- Dave Filoni, Director of The Clone Wars

''Kenobi and Ventress are overwhelmed by the raw power of Maul and Opress.''

- Starwars.com/tv-shows/clone-wars/revenge-episode-gallery

Kenobi: ''We are outmatched.''

- The Clone Wars: Season 4 Episode 22

The same Kenobi that amped against Maul btw. Why are Dooku fans using Kenobi as an argument here? The guy is always amped against Maul due to Qui-Gon, that's not an accurate benchmark.

You claimed that Obi-Wan is superior to Maul in Florrum, what kind of superior Force user would let other user to dominate himself in the Force? As I said, what you say make no sense.

Kenobi wasn't off-guard. He couldn't activate his lightsaber and he couldn't use the Force otherwise. As I said, you're making up excuses in here.

''Not true''? So you know better than the new canon list huh Mr.Star Wars expert?

If Dooku could beat him, then;

1- Maul's own apprentice Savage Opress (who Maul stomped) couldn't best Dooku in lightsaber combat.

2- And the new canon list wouldn't say Maul > Dooku.

This is the only harsh reality that you can't admit. This is why you and others are using Kenobi as an excuse against Maul whenever you get desperate, and pretending like Kenobi wasn't amped and more focused against Maul due to Qui-Gon.

Oh wow, one person agrees with you, someone who is just as wrong. Big deal.

...Because he wasn't...? Which is the point I'm trying to make...?

Nowhere did Filoni here said Maul beat Obi Wan. Just that Maul and Opress' raw power were overwhelming them, hence they escaped. It's like you can't read.

Idk why you keep blabbering on about Qui-Gon Jinn, because he has nothing to do with Kenobi's fights with Maul in TCW or Rebels.

Because he is superior? Please go back and watch the fight. Obi Wan took Gallia's lightsaber and clashed against both Maul and Opress. Neither of them could beat them and Obi Wan even cut off Opress arm, causing Maul to BFR him and retreat. Once again, Maul's never been able to beat Obi Wan on his own.

I swear, it's like we're watching a completely different scenario.

Watch the video from 0:00 all the way to 2:00 and tell me if what you just said makes any sense.

I know better not to listen to a laughable list and instead look what's actually shown in the movies, shows and comics.

@erkan12 said:

If Dooku could beat him, then;

1- Maul's own apprentice Savage Opress (who Maul stomped) couldn't best Dooku in lightsaber combat.

Love how both of those sources say two different things and yet they're both wrong, lol.

@erkan12 said:

2- And the new canon list wouldn't say Maul > Dooku.

This is the only harsh reality that you can't admit. This is why you and others are using Kenobi as an excuse against Maul whenever you get desperate, and pretending like Kenobi wasn't amped and more focused against Maul due to Qui-Gon.

Man, you really are obsessed with this list. But please, go on and continue spamming it and talking about Qui-Gon, who has nothing to do with Kenobi's victories in TCW and Rebels.

If you say so. Just letting you know that fight was at a time where Obi Wan was still nowhere as strong as he is in TCW-ROTS.

Yeah, he briefly bested a Padawan Obi Wan that wasn't even as strong as he is now and then ends up getting his legs chopped in half.

He had his full attention on both of them, not just more on Savage. And while having two lightsabers may have given him a bit of an advantage, it's not much of a major change as all he really did was change up his fighting style.

And like I said, that arrogance is what leads Maul to his constant downfalls, hence he's never beaten Obi Wan in a duel by himself.

I did not conveniently forget that fight, I left it out because again, Obi Wan was nowhere near as strong, something you seem to not acknowledge. And I honestly cannot believe you're taking Nick Gillard of all people, a stunt coordinator, as a reliable source over any Star Wars writer. Nick Gillard has nothing to do with what happens outside of the prequel movies. George Lucas only told him these things to give him an idea of how to choreograph the fights in the prequel movies. This tier system is nothing more than just that.

Notice how not a single character from the TCW is not on that list and he only uses TPM and ROTS Obi Wan. You still want to use that tier list?

You are once again leaving out two things here;

1. Obi Wan was only a Padawan back then.

2. Maul was being arrogant and ultimately let down his guard, hence gets his legs chopped off.

So technically speaking, by your logic, the circumstances in that fight were never normal either.

George Lucas.

You seem to forget that Sidious was again caught off guard.

The "Word of God" is again, George Lucas.

He has no say in the new canon, yes, but anything that relates back to his movies or any content prior to him selling the franchise still holds relevancy. And yes, that includes TCW.

So no, he's not some "shadow" in Star Wars. His words still hold meaning.

@lichvanastrea said:

@erkan12 said:

So, what happened to no one but me? You were lying about it because of your Dooku bias then? Alright move on.

Oh wow, one person agrees with you, someone who is just as wrong. Big deal.

@erkan12 said:

If you know Asajj was helping Kenobi why did you say Maul wasn't alone? Stop joking around.

...Because he wasn't...? Which is the point I'm trying to make...?

@erkan12 said:

Maul defeated Kenobi in Turtle Tanker duel, Filoni and other sources confirmed that.

''But eventually they gonna lose in that space, in that situation, and they needed to flee..''

- Dave Filoni, Director of The Clone Wars

''Kenobi and Ventress are overwhelmed by the raw power of Maul and Opress.''

- Starwars.com/tv-shows/clone-wars/revenge-episode-gallery

Kenobi: ''We are outmatched.''

- The Clone Wars: Season 4 Episode 22

Nowhere did Filoni here said Maul beat Obi Wan. Just that Maul and Opress' raw power were overwhelming them, hence they escaped. It's like you can't read.

@erkan12 said:

The same Kenobi that amped against Maul btw. Why are Dooku fans using Kenobi as an argument here? The guy is always amped against Maul due to Qui-Gon, that's not an accurate benchmark.

Idk why you keep blabbering on about Qui-Gon Jinn, because he has nothing to do with Kenobi's fights with Maul in TCW or Rebels.

@erkan12 said:

You claimed that Obi-Wan is superior to Maul in Florrum, what kind of superior Force user would let other user to dominate himself in the Force? As I said, what you say make no sense.

Because he is superior? Please go back and watch the fight. Obi Wan took Gallia's lightsaber and clashed against both Maul and Opress. Neither of them could beat them and Obi Wan even cut off Opress arm, causing Maul to BFR him and retreat. Once again, Maul's never been able to beat Obi Wan on his own.

@erkan12 said:

Kenobi wasn't off-guard. He couldn't activate his lightsaber and he couldn't use the Force otherwise. As I said, you're making up excuses in here.

I swear, it's like we're watching a completely different scenario.

Loading Video...

Watch the video from 0:00 all the way to 2:00 and tell me if what you just said makes any sense.

@erkan12 said:

''Not true''? So you know better than the new canon list huh Mr.Star Wars expert?

I know better not to listen to a laughable list and instead look what's actually shown in the movies, shows and comics.

@erkan12 said:

If Dooku could beat him, then

;

1- Maul's own apprentice Savage Opress (who Maul stomped) couldn't best Dooku in lightsaber combat.

Love how both of those sources say two different things and yet they're both wrong, lol.

@erkan12 said:

2- And the new canon list wouldn't say Maul > Dooku.

This is the only harsh reality that you can't admit. This is why you and others are using Kenobi as an excuse against Maul whenever you get desperate, and pretending like Kenobi wasn't amped and more focused against Maul due to Qui-Gon.

Man, you really are obsessed with this list. But please, go on and continue spamming it and talking about Qui-Gon, who has nothing to do with Kenobi's victories in TCW and Rebels.

It's a big deal. Because you were lying in order to wank Dooku, so that's important, and we know what you do in this thread.

Then why you didn't say Kenobi wasn't alone too huh? I guess we know why.

Yeah, someone can't read alright. My money on you. I guess you skipped the part where Filoni says ''But eventually they gonna lose in that space'' and so they needed flee. That's the definition of beating someone.

Why do you think Yoda send Kenobi to fight with Maul in the clone wars but not the other Jedi? Why Kenobi constantly follows Maul in the clone wars? It's a simple question, even you can find the answer, I will give you a clue; which is related to Qui-Gon jinn.

Lmao, seriously you must be trolling because I don't want to believe you're serious. Maul can BFR Kenobi with the Force whenever he wants but Kenobi is superior to him? You're talking about Savage Opress, Kenobi did nothing to Maul in Florrum. Kenobi twice tried to kill Savage, and twice Maul stopped him. What Kenobi did? He failed to save Adi Gallia and then escaped to the tunnel where he could get the territory advantage.

''The two Sith maneuvered to pin Obi-Wan against the wall--but there was so little room in the corridor that they got in each other's way.''

----Shadow Conspiracy

It's just territorial advantage. Then Maul stomped Kenobi with the Force. Stop this nonsense already.

> Kenobi sees Maul, activates his lightsaber and then Maul stomps him with the Force once again.

Yes, because it says Maul>Dooku, which is why you don't accept the list we all know that.

Right. Every source is wrong when it says something against Dooku, I get that.

The only reason why Kenobi can compete with Maul is because Maul killed Kenobi's master. Their final duel ended when Kenobi used a Qui-Gon stance in order to trick Maul, and before that he followed Maul during the clone wars because Maul killed Qui-Gon again.

Stop using Kenobi in here, it has nothing to do with Dooku. It's no different than saying Kenobi beat Anakin (who stomped Dooku), so Kenobi must be stronger than Anakin too while he wasn't.

@lichvanastrea said:

@antifreddykrueger said:

Nope, there's a difference. Having him beat simply means that Maul outdueled Kenobi, but that doesn't mean that he was the last man standing. Kenobi didn't win because of his superior lightsaber skills, he won due to luck, and that's it. Anyone else in Maul's position wouldn't have got as cocky and would have killed Kenobi the moment he jumped. Strawman it is.

If you say so. Just letting you know that fight was at a time where Obi Wan was still nowhere as strong as he is in TCW-ROTS.

@antifreddykrueger said:

He did tho, in TPM. Either way, outside factors could be that Obi-Wan's attention may be focused on Savage moreso than Maul, or simply having two lightsabers when Obi-Wan only has one normally, or Maul being blinded by rage, or th-

Need I go on? In a perfectly normal, 1v1 duel with Kenobi amplified nonetheless, he beat him, but got cocky and didn't want to finish the job. He paid the price and lost.

Yeah, he briefly bested a Padawan Obi Wan that wasn't even as strong as he is now and then ends up getting his legs chopped in half.

He had his full attention on both of them, not just more on Savage. And while having two lightsabers may have given him a bit of an advantage, it's not much of a major change as all he really did was change up his fighting style.

And like I said, that arrogance is what leads Maul to his constant downfalls, hence he's never beaten Obi Wan in a duel by himself.

@antifreddykrueger said:

You conveniently forget TPM, or that Kenobi never became an 8 until ROTS meaning he was a 7 from TPM to ROTS, or that Maul was an 8 all along. TCW duels aren't a great showing as there are a lot of variables to take into account. Even Rebels isn't that accurate since Maul by that time was purely focused on revenge and that played a part. Also, neither does Obi-Wan beat Maul on his own, he either retreats, forces Maul to retreat (not by beating him, mind you) or does beat him by luck.

Lucas told him how to choreograph the fights, meaning when it comes to a character's ability with a lightsaber (ie; fighting...), he is the main authority other than Lucas ofc when it comes to that. That's the whole point of a stunt choreographer, he is supposed to regulate how a character reacts, fights, etc. His statements were thus officially approved and endorsed as his portrayals of the characters were showcased in the movies.

I did not conveniently forget that fight, I left it out because again, Obi Wan was nowhere near as strong, something you seem to not acknowledge. And I honestly cannot believe you're taking Nick Gillard of all people, a stunt coordinator, as a reliable source over any Star Wars writer. Nick Gillard has nothing to do with what happens outside of the prequel movies. George Lucas only told him these things to give him an idea of how to choreograph the fights in the prequel movies. This tier system is nothing more than just that.

@antifreddykrueger said:

No? Even with your own 'evidence,' you prove me right! I said that Maul > Kenobi up untilROTS, and I give you ROTS Obi-Wan being of the same tier as Maul. How is that even a contradiction?

Notice how not a single character from the TCW is not on that list and he only uses TPM and ROTS Obi Wan. You still want to use that tier list?

@antifreddykrueger said:

Depending on the fight. In Rebels, Obi-Wan was calm, collective and cool and had the high ground while Maul was angry, arrogant, and blinded by revenge. These are not normal circumstances, whereas TPM fight was perfectly normal. Maul had no hard feelings against Obi-Wan, he simply did his job and outdueled him. Also, I can't prove something I never said. Filoni made no comments about that in the first place.

He wasn't when facing Qui-Gon (twice) and wasn't when facing Obi-Wan (up until he force-pushed him into the reactor shaft). Maul isn't gonna' underestimate a man who he knows beat Kenobi and also is Sidious' apprentice. He'll be prideful but not arrogant.

You are once again leaving out two things here;

1. Obi Wan was only a Padawan back then.

2. Maul was being arrogant and ultimately let down his guard, hence gets his legs chopped off.

So technically speaking, by your logic, the circumstances in that fight were never normal either.

@antifreddykrueger said:

Which sources say that Sidious > Vader?

George Lucas.

@antifreddykrueger said:

Actually, better idea; where does Matt Martin say that that list shouldn't be taken seriously/isn't canon?

@antifreddykrueger said:

He was though, he could have resisted just like he did when Vader was smashing up the place early on. Him being TK'd by Vader is simply another proof that Vader > Sidious. Oh, and the TFA Visual Dictionary also says that's true, so yet even more proof to support my assertion.

You seem to forget that Sidious was again caught off guard.

@antifreddykrueger said:

The Word of God is all I need to support my views, so you'd forgive me for touting it so much.

Not in new canon that is, Lucas by this point is just a shadow in Star Wars. Blame Disney if you like but that's how new canon works; I go by the rules. There's no high/low canon anymore.

The "Word of God" is again, George Lucas.

He has no say in the new canon, yes, but anything that relates back to his movies or any content prior to him selling the franchise still holds relevancy. And yes, that includes TCW.

So no, he's not some "shadow" in Star Wars. His words still hold meaning.

TCW Obi-Wan was still a 7, he didn't become an 8 until ROTS, therefore it still applies.

'Briefly' is an understatement, he stripped him of his lightsaber and force pushed him into a reactor shaft. He, again, didn't lose because he wasn't as strong as Obi-Wan, he lost because he was simply too arrogant and didn't bother finishing off Obi-Wan who was desperately hanging for his life. Maul outdueled Obi-Wan, and that is what matters. At certain key moments, he did, and that changed the dynamics of the fight. You can't take a 2 v 1 fight and blame it on Maul. Besides that, two lightsabers is ofc better than one, even if it's not your fighting style, as you can block in a better fashion than before. Maul is only arrogant when he seemingly finished dueling. Maul killed Qui-Gon without any display of arrogance who was better than Obi-Wan atm, he definitely won't underestimate Dooku.

He may have gotten stronger by the time of TCW but he was still a 7, and Nick Gillard literally choreographed all the fights from the prequels. He had complete and utter authority over the fighting there, and executed Lucas' vision of the fights. Thus, he is a credible authority, as any other behind the scenes guy. Oh, and if George Lucas did tell him these things, then that makes it G-Canon, because it was used to gauge the characters' abilities.

Oh, there are a lot more people on the list, but that's just some of them. Either way, you overlooked the 'up until ROTS' for Obi-Wan.

1. Yes, and by TCW he was virtually the same as in TPM.

2. Yes, but Maul wasn't arrogant when he fought Qui-Gon. Hell, even while fighting Obi-Wan until he force pushed him, he took him seriously.

I'm afraid you don't know what the circumstances of a fight are. They are things like the moods of the people involved, potential outside interference, etc. Maul beat Qui-Gon fair and square; that's called a normal fight. In fact, because he had to take on Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the time (and thus was probably exhausted), Maul deserves even more credit. A fight that's not normal is, for example, Darth Malgus vs Satele Shan. In that one, Malgus had Satele beat in 30 seconds and would have killed her until he got tackled by Jace Malcom. The actual fighting ability of a character has nothing to do with that.

Too bad his word can be overwritten by anyone at Lucasfilm.

Good, but he never said that it wasn't canon, only that he didn't take it very literally. The list still holds value and applies. Also, Matt Martin is only a writer and thus only has authority on his works, not others.