darth maul vs count dooku

VS

Hasn't this been done before?

And Dooku wins. TK, Lightning, Saber combat, all of it.

@ShootingNova said:

Hasn't this been done before?

And Dooku wins. TK, Lightning, Saber combat, all of it.

I would be shocked if this is the first thread pitting the two against each other.

Agreed with Dooku winning. Maul might win in just a pure saber fight but Dooku's superiority in the Force gives him all the advantage he needs to secure a victory.

@MorganFreeman: Actually I think Dooku is the superior sword duelist. He was stated to be almost equal with Mace

MAUL

@darkelf35 said:

@MorganFreeman: Actually I think Dooku is the superior sword duelist. He was stated to be almost equal with Mace

Allow me to rephrase what I said. Maul is only winning if it is strictly a lightsaber fight and even then I give the advantage to Dooku. But if they fought ten times, Maul might be able to secure a victory or two in such a battle.

Lighting doesn't do much to maul. Just saying.

@LordVulcan said:

Lighting doesn't do much to maul. Just saying.

.....

3:50

I would vote Dooku.

There is this previous thread...

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/count-dooku-vs-darth-maul/11536/

Didn't make it past one page though.

Dooku.

Count Dooku probably has the edge here.

Dooku has every edge that could be had in this battle, aside from maybe h2h prowess. But as Darth Palgueis stated, Teras Kasi and Juyo are a poor substitute for true Dun Moch.

Swordsmanship: Dooku > Maul. Maul is a skilled lightsaber combatant, sure. But Dooku has better showings of lightsaber skill as opposed to Maul. Holding his own with Yoda on more than one occasion, curbstomping a much more experienced Obi Wan than Maul faced, and besting a Padawan who was significantly more powerful than Obi Wan (at that stage of his training) in Anakin. Not to mention the various duels he's had with the duo in the Clone Wars series.

Force Ability, Power, etc: Dooku >>>>> Maul. I dont think anyone is debating this, but Dooku has a vast edge in both Force power and knowledge of the true nature of the DarkSide. Force lightning, telekinesis, Dun Moch, I could go on....

The only way Maul wins this is if he makes this a pure saber fight, and drags on the fight so that he can take advantage of Dooku's old age. But given that he lacks the raw physical power that Anakin possesses, I don't see him wearing down Dooku as quickly as Anakin did in the EP III novelization.

Dooku takes 8-9/10 fights. The other 1-2 go to Maul, through sheer luck or Maul possessing superior stamina.

@MorganFreeman: Dooku definitely wins a saber fight, or at least should. He has beaten Mace Windu before and is roughly equivalent to him in saber duelling in general. Maul falls behind.

dooku stomps

@Kingjohnrocks said:

@LordVulcan said:

Lighting doesn't do much to maul. Just saying.

.....

3:50

Super Coo

Dooku is played by Christopher Lee, he wins.

@zr0c00l said:

dooku stomps

He doesn't stomp but he wins almost 10/10. I would class it as a 8-9/10, because of his superiority in both saber combat and Force power, which leaves a very limited chance for Maul to win at all.

Goku stomps; wait?, Dooku stomps

Dooku is not stomping Maul, and I doubt he would win more than 7-8/10. Tyranus might be the superior combatant, but the difference is more negligible than gaping. The application of powers of course would benefit Dooku but not enough to afford him every victory in every encounter. Dooku's Lightning has never proven powerful enough to harm Maul very much, not to mention Maul can simply evade it or catch it on his blade (assuming Tyranus uses Lightning). Dooku supersedes Maul as a telekinetic, but then, Tyranus might find it difficult to apply his TK under pressure from the Juyo barrage of Maul's twin blades. Besides that, we have never seen either Dooku or Maul's full expenditure in respects to their TK; every telekinetic feat demonstrated from Maul was rather casual where the amount of effort on Dooku's part for his own TK feats being more unclear. So how distant the two are at their optimal output is unclear, though we can safely say from showings that Dooku surpasses him in that regard. But then, we have never seen Maul unleash his full potency in any offensive Force ability, really. There was a time as a teenager when Maul nearly released a Force Scream that would have crumbled barracks, but he restrained himself. I would be hesitant to discount Maul as a Force adept that quickly.
 
Speed should be roughly equal, though Maul's running speed feats are more impressive. Strength, durability, healing, and endurance are in Maul's favor. Skill and TK side with Dooku. Dun Moch is an option for Dooku as well (and in Revenge of the Sith, Tyranus mused rather deriding thoughts of Maul's methods, which could be evoked here), but then, what effect would that have on Maul? Maul can be arrogant, but he is also relentlessly driven. In End Game, when he discovered the possibility of the existence of other Sith Lords besides himself and Sidious, he was infuriated. Of course, he has no prior knowledge on Dooku as stipulated here, but he would recognize the Count's stance, fighting technique, Force powers, and presence in the Force (Maul tends to pay close attention to his opponents and his surroundings in combat, and he can read body language for fighting purposes as well as perceive movements and beings through the Force). Even if Maul did not quickly surmise that Dooku is a Sith Lord, he would at least suspect it, and if Tyranus taunts him through Dun Moch about being his replacement or some such like that, that would only worsen matters, especially since Maul already hates the habit of talking before or during a fight. Dooku is not an infallible practitioner of Dun Moch to begin with. As Sidious recorded in Book of Sith, Dun Moch can backfire if it galvanizes the recipient of it with maddening anger, and Dooku already engendered that effect in Anakin in RotS, to disastrous results for himself. I am confident Maul would divine Dooku's status as a Sith; if Dooku berates him about it, that would only make Maul more determined to kill him. 
 
Would Maul win a majority? No. But he is being undersold here. Dooku wins 7-8/10 through a slim advantage in lightsaber skill and more resourceful powers.

@Silver2467: Since it isn't specified, morals are on. Maul's arrogance is easily his undoing, and it can lead to some unnecessary reduction in his win/loss ratio. And I think starting distance should be a factor.

@Silver2467: Since it isn't specified, morals are on.

Maul's arrogance is easily his undoing, and it can lead to some unnecessary reduction in his win/loss ratio.

And I think starting distance should be a factor.

@Silver2467 said:

What does this have to do with my post?

It's not intended for your post, but for my post.

The only duel Maul has ever engaged in that he suffered a loss in for his arrogance was his duel with Obi-Wan, and he won that duel. In every single one of the others, his arrogance costed him nothing. I have no idea why you think his consistent showings would be overruled by the minority, especially since Maul would be more resolved to kill Dooku than normal due to the latter's status as a Sith Lord.

He won it initially, I meant something like what happened at the end. He'll get arrogant if he wins. He was even harmed by Alexi Garyn due to his overconfidence.

The starting distance as conditioned by the battle forum rules when that information is absent in an OP is relatively close.

I don't think I knew that. Oh well.

What are your thoughts on how that would become a factor? Because if anything, all I can see that accomplishing is granting Maul more chance to attack Dooku head to head since he could just rush forward to meet him, thus resulting in the two crossing blades.

If a sufficient distance is available, Dooku could be using telekinesis and other Force powers right from the start, but if the range is enough to engage in a melee immediately (as you said), then this isn't a valid point.

He won it initially, I meant something like what happened at the end. He'll get arrogant if he wins. He was even harmed by Alexi Garyn due to his overconfidence.

If a sufficient distance is available, Dooku could be using telekinesis and other Force powers right from the start, but if the range is enough to engage in a melee immediately (as you said), then this isn't a valid point.

Dooku. Maul was cut in half by a less experienced Obi Wan when Dooku knocked more experienced Obi Wan unconscious whilst fighting Anakin as well.

Sorry, I didn't receive a PM.

@Silver2467 said:

So you isolate one instance of Maul becoming overconfident after he already defeated his enemy and one instance where he had a conversation with his foe before killing him, which allowed the latter to catch him off guard to land a superficial cut on him?

No, if he defeats Dooku, he could possibly be getting that overconfident. Especially if he defeats someone he considers a rival.

Pick a better example. Maul's duels with Qui-Gon (both of them), Sidious (all of them), Anoon Bondara, Darsha Assant, Mighella, and the countless other enemies he has fought in personal combat paint a different picture than you are. Is Maul arrogant? Yes. Does that typically hurt him in a duel with another Force sensitive? No. Again, I have no idea why you think it would here when it hardly ever does anywhere else particularly given Maul's loathing for Sith Lords aside from himself and Sidious.

Yes, but none of them were at his mercy at the end.

Right, and that besides, the only single event I have ever seen Dooku stand back and Force attack an enemy from a distance as a substitute for dueling them or before dueling them was in Attack of the Clones. Dooku dueled Quinlan Vos in Republic; Mace Windu in Obsession; Grievous in CW; Ventress in CW; Tholme and Sora Bulq in Republic; and Anakin and Obi-Wan in RotS, and in none of those duels did he opt to attack them from a distance instead of employing his lightsaber against them. There is little reason to believe he would do so here either. As you pointed out, morals are on.

I know, but if the starting distance is quite some distance, then he should be using Force powers instead. But again, you said it won't be so, and I'll take your word for it because you've been on the Battles forums for longer than I have.

Sorry, I didn't receive a PM.

No, if he defeats Dooku, he could possibly be getting that overconfident. Especially if he defeats someone he considers a rival.

When these things are left out it’s generally assumed that characters are fighting to the best of their ability but still within the limits of their personality, using their standard gear, have no prep time, and are their current versions. Their starting distance is close and the setting is most often a city. Without any specifications to a battle, those are what we go by. It’s always best to give as much information about the fight in the first post.

Yes, but none of them were at his mercy at the end.

@Silver2467 said:

This makes no sense. If Maul defeats Dooku, Dooku will be dead. There are no feasible opportunities for Dooku to hang on a ledge the way Obi-Wan did in this battle because the fight will take place in a city area (see below). Unless the two somehow ascend to rooftops and Dooku is afraid to fall from a building top when he can simply glide down with the Force, there is no way in the world Dooku can duplicate Obi-Wan's surprise attack on Maul. More importantly, you still overlook Maul's mindset. When Sidious and Maul dueled on Hypori, Sidious lied to Maul by saying that he trained another apprentice as Maul's replacement. This agitated Maul, which led him to attack Sidious unrelentingly and attempt to kill him outright. If Maul suspects Dooku is an alternate Sith Lord, which is plausible, he will not hesitate to kill him immediately. There will be no toying with Dooku the way he toyed with Obi-Wan in TPM; Maul will simply want Dooku's head.

I guess this would be even more so if Dooku attempts to use Dun Moch, which he probably will unless he is bloodlusted.

@Battle Forum Rules said:

When these things are left out it’s generally assumed that characters are fighting to the best of their ability but still within the limits of their personality, using their standard gear, have no prep time, and are their current versions. Their starting distance is close and the setting is most often a city. Without any specifications to a battle, those are what we go by. It’s always best to give as much information about the fight in the first post.

Yes, but none of them were at his mercy at the end.

And what makes you think Dooku would be? If Maul wants to kill Dooku, he will kill Dooku. There are no viable scenarios under which Maul would beat Dooku but leave him alive long enough to gloat over his victory as he did with Obi-Wan. To repeat, if Maul suspects Dooku is a Sith Lord (which he will), he will want Dooku dead as soon as possible. No hesitations, no reservations. You're grasping at straws.

Okay. I'll keep this in mind.

@Silver2467: I never said he loses every time. I said Dooku wins 8-9/10, and you said 7-8/10. So let's just average it and make it 8/10.

@Silver2467: Okay.

Anakin won against Dooku, but he lost to Obi-Wan what is the conclusion here ?

The thing is fighting styles are important, Dooku using makashi style, that old style is for generally lightsaber combats, thats why he has big advantage about duels, but against blaster shots, he has disadvantage, so he can't assasinate Black Sun like Maul in my opinion, or he can't destroy easily troopers and droids like Obi-Wan.

Also Dooku's lightsaber style is something like kryptonite of Obi-Wan's defensive style. Thats why he won against him two times. While he lost to Anakin.

I think Maul seen very underrated. He is better warrior than Dooku thats for sure but not better duelist or leader. About using force i'm not sure, Dooku's lightning is not like Sidious's, so that is not important in duel, Maul's force speed and teras kasi gives him physical advantage. He fought against two Ataru user like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan easily. And he defeated them, but his arrogance caused his death not because he was weak...

There is no way Dooku could win 'easily' against Maul's juyo+teras kasi technique, if Maul resist against him enough, he would use his youthful and Dooku would exhaust ...

Also i suggest this video for observe more of Maul's abilities ;

Dooku takes the majority.

DOOKU 7 OUT OF 10

I'll bump this because it has some discussion value and apparently erkan12 wants to settle this.

Because he was enraged against Dooku and his physically intensive Djem So was supremely effective against Dooku's physically lax Makashi. He lost to Obi-Wan because he was emotionally torn and unstable.

Why do you insist on lightsaber forms making such an enormous difference in battle? Because they don't. When you reach duelists of this caliber, lightsaber skill and dueling feats matter much more than form does. Regarding Dooku's Makashi, I don't see why this battle between Maul and Dooku would not be a lightsaber duel, so......

And yes, Dooku could destroy the Black Sun or Battle Droids/Republic Troopers, via TK and Lightning for the most part but regarding blaster fire and his lightsaber technique, his mastery of Makashi reached a state such that he overcame two of its primary weaknesses - ineffectiveness against multiple duelists and lackluster blaster bolt deflection. In Dooku's case, there wasn't really much of a weakness left for Makashi, since his strength levels were quite decent. It would take somebody of Anakin or Yoda's strength levels, which surpass Maul's, for their strength to actually hamper Dooku's fighting. Maul does not share such a privilege.

No, it isn't. Obi-Wan had not yet perfected his Soresu form, and he was somewhat tired from the battle in the arena. Dooku simply won because he was more efficient in dueling, and because he was able to draw out Obi-Wan's defenses and wear them down.

Anakin's form would be the Kryptonite of Dooku's form, but as I said above form is not everything. You exaggerate form effectiveness.

I could just as easily say Dooku is underrated by you (well, for that matter he is). You need to stop offering subjective judgements and instead offer objective ones. Not that any of this needs to be addressed. Regarding being a better warrior, I don't see how this is even remotely relevant in a duel, while being a better personal duelist is certainly relevant.

Dooku's Lightning would certainly affect Maul like it did Anakin. Maul has never shown anything beyond Anakin's durability, so there is no reason to suggest Dooku's Lightning would not affect him. Mighella was featless and hardly a powerful opponent anyways, and Sidious stomped Maul with Lightning. He is not the most effective benchmark because he simply destroyed Maul with Lightning, so it isn't as if being inferior to Palpatine's Lightning, which bends lightsaber blades and destroys armies, is going to be ineffective against Maul.

Maul's speed hardly gives him an advantage. If anything, Dooku is faster. Both have generated afterimages, fought blurringly fast, invisibly fast, and so on. Maul has fought faster than a droid could see and dodged blaster bolts at a close range. Dooku has dodged strikes from Ventress, Savage and Grievous, all of whom have either deflected/dodged/outran blaster fire in either copious amounts or at a close range, so they would possess a speed level relevant to Maul's, yet Dooku could dodge/outpace them, suggesting he was faster than Maul. He was also faster than Obi-Wan, whom was about equal to Maul in speed.

In any case, none of this matters because even if Dooku was faster than Maul, it would be by such negligible amounts that it wouldn't matter. As for Maul fighting against two Ataru users, neither were in their prime while Maul's exotic weapon and technique played a part. Beyond that, he was able to separate Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and wore down Qui-Gon's defenses after he was drained from excessive Ataru usage, before killing him. Obi-Wan was left vulnerable after he attack Maul in a rush and almost successfully applied Sun Djem.

Maul's weapon might be exotic to Dooku in this scenario, but then again Dooku's weapon is as well. This ends up cancelling each other out so it doesn't matter. TCW Maul uses a single blade, however, so if it isn't TPM Maul then he actually would be disadvantaged against Dooku's curved hilt, but only slightly (and almost negligibly).

Regarding Teras Kasi, this really means nothing. Plagueis stated that Maul was trained to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice, and that Niman and Teras Kasi would never substitute for Dun Moch.

Nobody said Dooku wins easily, and he doesn't.

Being youthful is irrelevant. Both of them possess superhuman physicality as a result of their Force attunement, and Dooku's superior strength in the Force only grants him preternatural strength and speed, as well as negating the effects of age. Dooku's own musings suggest he was as fit as a man half his age, which would be a man in the prime of his powers.

So really, being old doesn't mean anything except for the fact that Dooku has more experience. Of course, I know better than to say experience wins battles because if it did, Yoda wouldn't have lost to Sidious, Beldorion wouldn't have lost to Leia, Odan-Urr wouldn't have lost to Exar Kun, Naga Sadow wouldn't have lost to either Freedon Nadd or Barel Ovair, and so on.

Oh, and since you love Jensaari so much, he actually said Dooku would beat Maul. Not that I consider it canon, but well....

As for my own consensus, I'll say that this is a fairly decent match-up but Tyranus wins.

If this was TPM Maul:

Strength: Maul wins, slightly. Maul has brutally slain people and kicked hard enough for his strike to go right through his opponents, outstripped Qui-Gon's strength, and so on.

Dooku has kicked Anakin backwards and Obi-Wan down the stairs, kicked a Nightsister several meters out of a hallway and off a ledge while drugged, repelled strikes from Ventress with enough force to stagger her or even push her back several meters (while drugged), etc.

That said, the difference is negligible. Dooku was fine against Grievous, who has better strength feats than Maul.

Speed: Dooku wins, as I said above. Both have generated afterimages, fought blurringly fast, invisibly fast, and so on. Maul has fought faster than a droid could see and dodged blaster bolts at a close range. Dooku has dodged strikes from Ventress, Savage and Grievous, all of whom have either deflected/dodged/outran blaster fire in either copious amounts or at a close range, so they would possess a speed level relevant to Maul's, yet Dooku could dodge/outpace them, suggesting he was faster than Maul.

Dueling: Maul has beaten Siolo'urmanka (well, he kind of backstabbed him), was about to beat Anoon Bondara, almost beat Qui-Gon on Tatooine while injured (although Qui-Gon had been running for a while in the scorching heat), fought about evenly against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, beaten Qui-Gon after wearing down his defenses, and beaten Obi-Wan after he lost his enragement.

Dooku's feats include defeating Windu, stomping Tholme and Sora, defeating Obi-Wan, defeating AotC Anakin, stalemating/contending with Anakin in other scenarios despite his obvious form disadvantage, defeating Grievous, stomping Ventress, stalemating Ventress and two of her best Nightsisters while drugged and holding his own against Yoda.

I think it is safe to say Dooku wins this as well.

Telekinesis: Maul has shattered doors, hurled people and levitated boulders. Dooku has easily lifted and hurled boulders, broken cranes, broken parts of walkways, lifted over a dozen obelisks, easily collapsed a bridge, and so on.

Dooku definitely wins this scenario.

All in all, Dooku wins fairly comfortably. About 8/10.

If it is TCW Maul, then the biggest thing that changes is TK. He has now choked Obi-Wan and collapsed part of caves, both of which Dooku has also done. Beyond that, he has also manipulated Republic shuttles which is a very impressive feat in itself. Dooku doesn't win by much more than 6-7/10 now because Maul is almost equal to him in TK now.

Agreed with this but Maul is 10 times cooler.

@zijuun: Eh, I like them both. But Dooku is much more developed as a character. Looking cool really doesn't mean much when you aren't well developed.

True, true.

TPM Maul: Dooku takes it 8/10

TCW Maul: Dooku 7/10

Nova has basicly summed it up perfectly already; there is no reason for me to make an long post.....xP

Plus Maul has 2 or 3 times more potential. (Since TPM Maul was 22 years old, TPM Obi-Wan 25 and Dooku should be 70)

And using, understanding dark side better than both Dooku and Vader, since he was never a ''jedi''.

I don't know much about Star wars but you're right.

Well, judging purely by the films, Obi wan took out Maul (albeit a bit fortuitously) whereas Dooku easily owned Obi Wan and Anakin....Dooku wins

I don't think that Dooku defeating Vaapad user Windu. Dooku may won against less experienced Windu but he try to escape when he saw Windu at CW.

Mace was a Master when Dooku was in the Order as well; so that hardly concludes anything. Besides, I could draw on Dooku's own musings that he is a more powerful Sith than Jedi.

As for the topic on hand, Tyranus should win a majority, although TCW Maul could contend better than TPM Maul due to his immense raw power.

I think that is foresight and instincts. And ;

"He is a fencer. Leverage, position, advantage—they are as natural to him as breathing.''

Qui-Gon Jinn

I think you are mistaken speed with his mastery of makashi. Yes maybe he can duel with 4 lightsaber master at the same time, but that is for 'lightsaber duels' not for blaster shoots or other kind of enemies.

Darth Maul is absolutely faster. But Maul's speed has no advantage in this lightsaber combat due to Dooku's makashi mastery.

But Windu was much younger than Dooku. (Windu 72 BBY , Dooku = 102 BBY)

So it is possible that at that time Windu didn't create Vaapad.

Maul wins narrowly.

@erkan12: So what if he was younger? Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda etc. all diminished with age.

And I believe that Mace has described Depa's own talent for Vaapad in a journal, which would mean he had already mastered it around the time of TPM.

Also, notifications are not working for me right now.