Darth Maul (TCW) vs Saesse Tiin

@erkan12:

"Where it says 'higher canon'? No where. There is no higher canon or lesser canon, that's your fanfiction. Immovable doesn't mean higher canon, LOL."

What do you think "immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align" means? What happens in the movies and TCW is immovable, everything else must align with it. Classic Erkan, denying the canon. 

"Sorry you couldn't understand simple things. That's called using 'irony'.Since you said I am obssessed with Dooku. I never bump old Dooku threads, while you bump old Maul threads to spread lies"

Irony? Nah. You lied about me constantly bumping Dooku threads, and now you're moving the goalpost. Reality is, I never mentioned Dooku in our debate, yet you went out of your way to say "Maul > Dooku," because it's some sort of obsession with you. 

"outfighting LOL, he never did that, which is why he escaped." 

He absolutely did. A tired out and injured Savage drove Anakin and Obi-Wan down multiple hallways for a good amount of time. He was beating them, that's outfighting them. He escaped because he had no interest in fighting:

"Savage then battered his way back to the frigate's hangar, past Obi-Wan and Anakin. The weary warrior had no interest in conquest, only escape." 

-- StarWars.com: Biography Gallery 

"After a grueling fight with Count Dooku and Asajj Ventress, Savage batters his way back to the frigate's hangar, past Obi-Wan and Anakin and a squadron of battle droids. The weary warrior had no interest in conquest, only escape."

-- StarWars.com: Video Guide

"You're comparing Canon to Legends now huh? Since you've no argument and you're desperate now. Stop using Legends against Canon,"

What? The OP doesn't say that this is canon or legends only. It says "all movie and comic feats apply." It's composite. Your desperation is showing, next you will deny the official sources. 

"after all you're the one declaring imaginary 'higher canon' (expletive omitted)."

Still denying canon? Predictable.

"You should know that Canon > Legends, but somehow you use Judd, who is a Legends character only to lowball Maul now? Desperate... You're very desperate."

Again, maybe you didn't read, but this is composite. 

"And Savage never ragdolled Maul and Judd,"

Wrong:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/zU46QikE1h1pg4rt5

"that's another lie."

I agree, your statement was. 

"Getting a feedback from a shockwave is not ragdolling."

Getting hurled into the air is being ragdolled.  

"Maul KOed Kenobi for a while after blasting his ass with the Force in that cave, he gave him a concussion. Savage did no such a thing like that."

What Maul does is irrelevent since Savage in turn ragdolled Maul. But as I said before, it was amped Savage, so it doesn't matter. 

"The fact that we know Jedi holds back a lot in sparring matches is the proof of your lies."

No, we don't know that, you're just making up stuff. 

"It's not like Windu was going to stomp Saesee when he was holding back of majority of his offensive powers."

Again, you're making up stuff. There's no evidence that Windu held back as a fighter against Saesee.

"It's no different than Yoda dueling with Dooku and it's not like Yoda was going all out in order to defeat Dooku, otherwise the Jedi could've killed each other while sparring." 

Obviously they aren't fighting with lethal intent. They're holding back in that regard. But they're still doing their best to defeat each other without injury.  

"Windu was clearly holding back against Bulq, and he stomped Bulq when he sensed something going on, that would be the same with Saesee."

More baseless fan fiction. Cite sources, or stop talking about Star Wars. 

"Yoda was clearly holding back against Dooku as well,"

Yet more fan fiction. 

"the proof is that he uses the Force offensively against Sidious, while he never uses the Force offensively against Dooku."

Such lies: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XSEnuFaWgi8oRbfS8

"Otherwise Yoda would stomp Dooku just like Anakin did." 

Wrong. Yoda fought an exhausted Dooku with lethal intent but didn't break his defenses once or beat him. Dooku stalemated Yoda for nearly 40 seconds.  

"Whoever think Dooku is comparable to Yoda shouldn't be taken seriously, I don't know why I am wasting my time with you."

Whoever thinks Dooku isn't comparable to Yoda is completely wrong, but not a waste of time or someone who shouldn't be taken seriously. Because I'm not toxic like you. 

"If Windu doesn't even fight offensively with a Jedi who falls to the dark side, then there is no way he would fight offensively in a friendly contest or he would go all out, that's very simple."

That's garbage logic. Jedi spar to test and hone their lightsaber skills, it's no different from a modern wrestling match. Just because they aren't fighting to kill or maim doesn't mean they fighting as hard as they can to win through non-lethal means. Mace was holding back against a fallen Jedi because he was trying to reason with him.  

"What circumstances?"

I just posted 8 official quotes explicitly detailing what happened.

"One moment you say Maul couldn't fight with Sidious, then you make up excuses for Saesee getting one-shotted by same Sidious."

Classic Erkan, denying the official sources. 

"Then you make up more excuses for Dave Filoni's statement where he says Maul > Savage > Saesee, Fisto and Kolar. Listen again, and again" 

Why do you repeat the same debunked arguments? It doesn't make them any less false. Yes, Savage outperformed the Council -- in that he lasted longer. But it doesn't mean anything, because Sidious was toying with him, and bested him with contemptuous ease:

"Batting his former apprentice aside, Darth Sidious attacked Opress. It was a one-sided fight and, cruelly laughing all the time, Sidious defeated and killed Savage Opress with contemptuous ease while Maul watched on, helpless."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched  

Meanwhile the Council was drastically hindered when Sidious stomped them. Stop pretending Filoni's quote supports your bias, because it doesn't. 

"And Maul even puts up a better fight than Savage as well."

Maul was also stomped by Sidious, so it doesn't matter. 

"Maul defeats Savage Opress with ease."

This is true. Just like how 17 year old Ahsoka will be able to hold her own against Maul in TCW, when she has no business going against someone of his level. It's PIS, inconsistencies. Just as many feats point to Savage being better than Maul than don't. Such as, vastly outperforming Maul against Kenobi, and closely matching Adi Gallia who can contend with Grievous, something that Maul and Kenobi can't do according to the canon sources like Son of Dathomir and TCW. 

"Savage is at the this point physically strong enough to overwhelm Count Dooku and disarm him" 

No, he's not. That's as honest as if Savage used saberthrow to cut down a chandelier, which falls on Dooku and causes him to drop his blade, and you say Savage is skilled enough to disarm Dooku. It's misleading and dishonest. Savage with a hammer strike knocked Dooku -- who was only using one hand to block -- back, and Dooku flew and hit a wall, at whichpoint Dooku drops his blade. 

Plus, that's inconsistent. Ventress with bad positioning was able to take a heavier strike from Savage aboard the Turtle Tanker, and Dooku was physically overwhelming Ventress with one hand. Plus, Dooku has contended with Yoda in a bladelock, who in turn has contended with Sidious, who can casually overpower Savage's strength with one hand. 2 showings to 1.   

"Maul kicks Sidious"

And Savage headbutted Sidious. He was toying with them, he probably allowed it to happen. Sidious still easily defeated Maul:

"If Darth Maul had hoped his efforts would impress his old Master, Darth Sidious, he was disappointed. Sidious killed Opress and then easily defeated Maul."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched 

Because Maul can't compete with Sidious:

"Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy." 

-- Dave Filoni

Continue to deny the official sources.

Does Saesse even have any note worth feats in canon besides getting one shotted by palp or doing ok in a sparring match against Windu which is not that impressive y’all, Windu has had a lot of sparring matches and everyone always does well against him which does not translate to actual feats.

If not I don’t see why maul doesn’t low diff

Lmao, so you use this quote, is this mean you are accepting that Sidious > Yoda, and Sidious > Windu?

Or can't you read that Filoni says ''no one'' can compete, not only Maul... And it means Yoda can't compete as well as Windu can't compete with Sidious as well.

Can you even read? Just make up your mind already, and stop making me laugh. :))

Redirecting Dooku's own lightning, is not a direct attack like this;

Since he can do this to a far more powerful Sidious, it confirms that Yoda was holding back against Dooku, a lot.

Yoda was holding back against his former Jedi apprentice Dooku, as a Dooku fan like you it's hard to accept this fact I know.

You don't even understand when I use irony.... It's sad...

I meant you're obssesed with lowballing maul so much because you're an extremely bias dooku fanboy, and you're bumping old maul mismatch threads like this one, in order to lowball maul.

I am not obssesed with dooku and I don't bump mismatch dooku threads in order to lowball dooku.

...

You don't know what it means as usual.

It means stomping someone completely, as Maul stomped Kenobi in Florrum, a weak ass side-effect of pushing means nothing, and Maul definitely didn't even fall on his knees. Read the comic book again before spreading lies.

...

The fact that Windu was highly distressed on fighting with his former Jedi friend is the source.

''Mace was highly distressed that his mission involved fighting his old friend and colleague Sora Bulq.''

Source : Fact Files #108

So you can't really make up excuses like Windu wasn't holding back against his Jedi friends.

...

Sure sure...

It should be inconsistent when it's something against your precious Dooku.

-True or False?- ''Dooku cannot be bested in a lightsaber duel.''

False: ''Opress disarms him but is bested by Force lightning.''

Source: The Clone Wars: What is a Sith Warrior? (2012)

Dooku lost the same way when Anakin used his physical strength, it's not inconsistent. Dooku has weakness against power blows like Savage and Maul's.

Yoda was holding back a lot against Dooku. He was still overpowering Dooku despite being a midget in terms of size.

''Yoda is half the size of Count Dooku, but has twice the power.''

Yoda is 2 times more powerful than Dooku, and he was overpowering him while still holding back.

Maul kicked Sidious. A feat that Dooku has never accomplished against holding back Yoda, who is also weaker than Sidious.

You just quoted and used a quote from Filoni that says no one can compete with Sidious.

It says Sidious > Yoda and, Sidious > Windu.

Stop using Sidious to hype Yoda if you are going to say Maul can't compete with the guy where the quote says no one can compete with Sidious.

Maul kicked Sidious, and Sidious wasn't toying.

''Meanwhile, Sidious duels with the Sith brothers, never wavering from his position of superiority. Fueled by the dark side, Sidious is transformed into an agile whirlwind of destruction.''

--- Starwars.com

It doesn't mean anything when you are extremely bias yes.

Sidious wasn't toying, read the quote above if you can read. He got kicked, you don't get kicked against someone you can toy with, stop making up funny excuses.

I've heard enough of your hilarious excuses already.

Won't insert myself too much into the conversation but regarding Ventress and Savage, if you look at the scene in the tanker you can see that she set her self into the perfect position to absorb Savage's strike:

Notice at the end of the gif Ventress is in a crouching position to give her body maximum purchase and resistance. If she was in a standing position she probably would have at least been wobbled like Kenobi was in his first encounter with TCW Maul.

OT:

Tiin is too much of an unknown. I used to take sparring seriously but now I don't. Even Luke has been bested in sparring when we obviously know he would win in any real-life and death situation. Mace and Tiin were just being casual, talking about Vos, and not really fighting with any conviction. Most likely just going through routine saber sequences while they discuss Vos rather than trying to beat the other. Other than that all his best feats are against fodder and unquantifiable.

@erkan12:

"Lmao, so you use this quote, is this mean you are accepting that Sidious > Yoda, and Sidious > Windu? Or can't you read that Filoni says 'no one' can compete, not only Maul... And it means Yoda can't compete as well as Windu can't compete with Sidious as well. Can you even read? Just make up your mind already, and stop making me laugh. :)) You just quoted and used a quote from Filoni that says no one can compete with Sidious. It says Sidious > Yoda and, Sidious > Windu. Stop using Sidious to hype Yoda if you are going to say Maul can't compete with the guy where the quote says no one can compete with Sidious." 

Classic Erkan, so much hypocrisy. So you use this quote:

''He puts up a better fight than Jedi council did.''

Does this mean you are accepting that Savage > Windu? Or can't you read that Filoni says "Jedi council"? 

So you use this quote:

"Do you really believe there is any power in the galaxy that can stand against my lord? Ten thousand Jedi knights will try this and all will fail.''

Does this mean you are accepting Sidious > 10k Jedi? Or can't you read that Dooku says "ten thousand Jedi Knights"? 

In your words:

"Dooku[Filoni) uses hyperbole, but it's clear that what he meant, Sidious > [>>>>>>>>>> Maul+Savage] Yoda or anyone else" 

-- Erkan12, 2019

You debunk yourself at this point in your desperate attempts to deny the official sources. LOL

"Redirecting Dooku's own lightning, is not a direct attack like this;"

Yes, it literally is. That's like saying catching a dodgeball and then throwing it back isn't the same as just throwing a dodgeball you picked up. 

Yoda used the Force to attack Dooku. Get over it. 

"Since he can do this to a far more powerful Sidious, it confirms that Yoda was holding back against Dooku, a lot."

Nope, it doesn't. More baseless fan fiction.

"Yoda was holding back against his former Jedi apprentice Dooku, as a Dooku fan like you it's hard to accept this fact I know| Yoda was holding back a lot against Dooku. He was still overpowering Dooku despite being a midget in terms of size."

What can fiction is this? LOL at Yoda holding back. 

"If Dooku escapes, rally more systems to his cause, he will." 

-- Yoda 

"Aware that Geonosis might be must the beginning of the conflict, Yoda wanted to ensure his disgraced Padawan, Count Dooku, did not escape to gather more systems into the separatist movement." 

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched  

Lucas wanted Yoda to try and kill Dooku:

"The end for you, Count, this is."

-- Yoda 

Even though cut, it shows that Lucas wanted Yoda to go all-out. Go peddle your fan fiction elsewhere.

"TCW = SoD." 

LOL, Erkan trying to say that a comic book is the clone wars tv show. So desperate. SOD, like any other novel or comic, connects and explains stuff. That doesn't make it the same. 

SOD is a comic book, not the immovable object tv show.

"It's your fanfiction to deny the fact that Maul isn't powerful enough to fight with Windu + Aayla at the same time."

Classic Erkan, denying the canon to suit his bias.

"You don't even understand when I use irony.... It's sad... I meant you're obssesed with lowballing maul so much because you're an extremely bias dooku fanboy, and you're bumping old maul mismatch threads like this one, in order to lowball maul. I am not obssesed with dooku and I don't bump mismatch dooku threads in order to lowball dooku."

As I said before:

You lied about me constantly bumping Dooku threads, and now you're moving the goalpost. Reality is, I never mentioned Dooku in our debate, yet you went out of your way to say "Maul > Dooku," because it's some sort of obsession with you.

"You don't know what it means as usual. It means stomping someone completely, as Maul stomped Kenobi in Florrum, a weak ass side-effect of pushing means nothing, and Maul definitely didn't even fall on his knees. Read the comic book again before spreading lies." 

To ragdoll means to manipulate someone as though they were a ragdoll... you're arguing over pointless semantics. Reality is, Savage ragdolled Maul and Judd simultaneously, because he's more powerful in that state:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/zU46QikE1h1pg4rt5

Keep trying to lie about what happened in the comic.

"The fact that Windu was highly distressed on fighting with his former Jedi friend is the source. So you can't really make up excuses like Windu wasn't holding back against his Jedi friends." 

You're so desperate at this point, trying to pretend that being sad = holding back, to make up excuses for Windu. Sad. I knew you didn't have any source.

"Sure sure... It should be inconsistent when it's something against your precious Dooku."

Nope, it's inconsistent when it's inconsistent, like I showed before:

Ventress with bad positioning was able to take a heavier strike from Savage aboard the Turtle Tanker, and Dooku was physically overwhelming Ventress with one hand. Plus, Dooku has contended with Yoda in a bladelock, who in turn has contended with Sidious, who can casually overpower Savage's strength with one hand. 2 showings to 1.

"Dooku lost the same way when Anakin used his physical strength, it's not inconsistent."

More fan fiction? Dooku can't handle Anakin's strength? In the movies Dooku can handle Anakin AND Obi-Wan's strength just fine with one arm:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lh8zLcE9YehFDVu46

"Dooku has weakness against power blows like Savage" 

But Ventress doesn't? LOL

"and Maul's."

What? TCW Maul is a skinny weak guy. Power blows? LOL 

"Yoda is 2 times more powerful than Dooku,"

Wrong, Yoda was struggling to hold off Dooku's power:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/haZ7ZEpuwoqp7aN98

"and he was overpowering him" 

I love that you show a made up clip from a little kids adaptation to prove your point. Show me, where did Yoda casually overpower Dooku in the movie? I'll wait. 

Last I checked, Yoda only overpowered Dooku in a bladelock with visible effort:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qWZFUMWKRZvoq19dA

Like he did with Sidious: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/A3GV9QDSqrfjebju8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/S9aCjzA44oZiZ6858

"while still holding back." 

Are you still peddling this debunked lie? LOL 

"Maul kicked Sidious."

Dooku blasted Yoda with lightning enough to disarm him:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/sGgZo1FqPKauHcrV9

According to you that means Dooku beat Yoda:

"Sidious doesn't even need lightsaber to fight, he disarmed Yoda without using his lightsaber, and killed Vader without using his lightsaber as well, and defeated Yoda without using his lightsaber."

"Lmao, since when that's Sidious' problem. If Yoda isn't fast or quick enough to use his lightsaber, then that means he can't protect himself from Sidious and gets disarmed."

Maul kicked Sidious, Dooku defeated Yoda, disarming him according to you. 

"A feat that Dooku has never accomplished against holding back Yoda," 

An exhausted Dooku:

"The battle with Obi-Wan and Anakin had taken a lot out of Count Dooku..." 

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files #103 

"The battle with Obi-Wan and Anakin had taken a lot out of Count Dooku..." 

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched #57 

Stalemated Yoda for nearly 40 seconds:

https://youtu.be/3UUQIIOO8RM

In fact, the duel was practically dead-even:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HMSM7LDK8qU2c3ia8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/RJouwsJpwDf566jw6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UvZN2WiVk1a79eKEA

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6S9PbmEMNgTqE82D7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/oNCu3aqLNCE8cdC66

What does Yoda say about his own duel? He says Dooku was a challenge:

"Fought well you have, my old Padawan."

-- Yoda(Attack of the Clones) 

Later on, he says that Dooku used to be a formidable opponent:

"Gone backwards your skills have, Dooku. No longer a formidable opponent you are." 

-- Yoda(Yoda Uncovered #9) 

So an exhausted Dooku is a challenge for Yoda, a formidable opponent, who can match him for nearly 40 seconds. Maul can't even compete with Sidious: 

"Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy."

-- Dave Filoni

And Sidious isn't even as good as Yoda:

"Their swords CLASH. The battle is extremely fast and furious. PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena. YODA makes a giant leap into the control pod. The sword fighting is intense in the confined space. Yoda unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA." 

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

"He drove Palpatine back across the room, into the Chancellor’s podium. Palpatine hit the controls, and the podium began to rise, carrying him up into the Senate. But the podium moved slowly; Yoda had plenty of time to flip himself into the air and land beside the Emperor, to continue the fight. As the podium rose into the Senate arena, the fight intensified. Twice, Yoda came near to pushing Palpatine over the edge. They were high enough now that a fall could be fatal, even to a Sith Lord. Or a Jedi Master. The cramped space within the pod left little room for maneuvering. An end, I must make. Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another — and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Junior Novelization

Dooku >>> TCW Maul, stop denying the canon and legends facts. 

"who is also weaker than Sidious." 

More lies. Yoda ragdolls Sidious:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HDUPLZoogFN7ebDe6

Yoda overpowers Sidious:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UfZGLygZ4sisL1L5A

But Yoda is weaker than Sidious? LOL. Let me guess, you will come back and post all the debunked lower canon sources, trying to deny the movie.

"Maul kicked Sidious, and Sidious wasn't toying. Sidious wasn't toying, read the quote above if you can read."

Even more desperation. Your quote doesn't say anywhere that Sidious wasn't toying. According to the facts, Maul can't compete with Sidious: 

"Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy."

-- Dave Filoni

Sidious easily defeated Maul:

"If Darth Maul had hoped his efforts would impress his old Master, Darth Sidious, he was disappointed. Sidious killed Opress and then easily defeated Maul."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched 

Sidious allowed Maul to kick him, just like he allowed Savage to headbutt him.

It doesn't mean anything when you are extremely bias yes.

"He got kicked, you don't get kicked against someone you can toy with, stop making up funny excuses." 

That totally makes sense. You know what's worse than a kick? A more serious breach of guard? A lightsaber slash. You don't get slashed against someone you can toy with... oh wait:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/LVygXF4BhYQMMbzj7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/LHNhWJ32qNxQezbc7

"I've heard enough of your hilarious excuses already."

Concession accepted.

@kilius:

Even so she took a much heavier blow and Savage made no progress against her despite having better leverage.

People need to stop clinging on to George Lucas's word like it's immovable canon. The only immovable canon in that 2014 statement are the 6 Star Wars films and the Clone Wars cartoon, that's it. Matt Martin, whose tweets that people also cling onto like they're immovable canon, has said that no random statements from any creators including GL, are canon and what's actually canon is what's told in official storytelling:

Matt Martin: No random statements by any creators are canononical in and of themselves. George has contradicted himself many times so nothing is "true" until it's told in officially storytelling.

Link: https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1058838189010370560

What feats does Tiin have that put him on Maul's level? Not really familiar with anything he's done except getting one-shot by Sidious in ROTS.