Darth Maul (TCW) vs Saesse Tiin

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icecold14

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Both bloodlusted

Takes place in Hoth

Random encounter

All movie and comic feats apply

Maul only has Darksaber

15ft apart

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ShootingNova

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#2  Edited By ShootingNova

Maul is more skilful, somewhat physically superior, and probably more powerful, but the differences are rather small in all areas. Still, it should be sufficient for him to win 10/10.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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Maul. Potentially because of a lack of showings on Tiin's part, but regardless Maul is just better overall going by feats.

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ShootingNova

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@i_like_swords: There is a lack of showings, but Saesee is on a similar tier to Maul in virtually every category.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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@shootingnova: I know, it is close. If Sassae had more exposure he could very well surpass Maul in some areas.

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ShootingNova

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@i_like_swords: Power and skill, probably. Power, he has the showings of lifting and hurling huge droid parts, hurling droids four kilometers, and deflecting homing missiles. The fact that he was implied in The Clone Wars Adventures to be more powerful than Mace seems to show to me that he would be about as powerful as Maul.

For skill, he really lacks exposition. His accolade of being one of the best in the Order is fairly common within the PT era, and his feat of sparring evenly with Mace was only shown for slightly more than a page and it would only deliver him to about 8.5 or so in skill, whereas I like to think of Maul as about 8.8 in skill. If he had more feats, it would help (ie. fighting Ventress or non-TCW Grievous, or beating multiple Dark Lord - level Magnaguards handily), but at the moment, that's all we have, except for the subjective accolade from Obi-Wan which indicates that Saesee, Kit, Agen and Mace are all on similar tiers and are all some of the best swordsmen in history itself.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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@shootingnova: Yeah, he just falls short in dueling feats really. Pretty much agree with your assessment.

I think Fisto, Tiin and Kolar all could have used more exposure to be honest (maybe not so much Fisto, but the other two definitely). They all have the potential to be interesting characters... I'd happily of read a comic/novel dedicated to those three and Windu.

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ShootingNova

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#8  Edited By ShootingNova

@i_like_swords: There are quite a few. Not on Saesee or Agen, but on Kit and Mace, certainly.

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deactivated-5dace575ce059

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Maul. Potentially because of a lack of showings on Tiin's part, but regardless Maul is just better overall going by feats.

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Beingfatissupercool

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Somehow i believe Darth Maul his physical / lightsaber skills are a tier above Saesee Tin .

We can see Sidious finishing Tin in literally 1 hit while he had 3 other jedi's standing next to him .

Maul on the other hand had only 1 companion , ( and sometimes he was on his own ) .

Yes Sidious did probably play with them , but Sidious could of just disarmed him with fighting skills, but yet he had to use his force abilities to eventually take down Maul .

Also Savage actually fighting Sidious for several seconds, which Saesee couldn't , makes me believe Savage should be on Saesee's tier .

But Maul is just a tier above Savage really , and because of all of this , i really believe Maul should pwn Saesee .

There's also no source saying Sidious was holding in / playing while fighting Savage / Maul .

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ShootingNova

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#11  Edited By ShootingNova

@beingfatissupercool: Yes, there was, when Dave Filoni outright claimed that Sidious was enjoying himself throughout the fight and still having the edge regardless. In the novel, Sidious is clearly shown to be holding back throughout the fight because he practically speedblitzes Maul at the end, which is consistent with how Sidious blitzed Agen and Saesee, and he was so fast that neither Anakin nor a Force-Harmony enhanced Leia could even see him, which would have been the same with Mace had he not been amped (which is referenced in The Complete Visual Dictionary).

I already know how this will be received, anyway, so I don't even know why I'm doing this.

Also, LOL at Palpatine needed to use the Force to disarm him. He disarmed Maul in the bladelock in the TCW portrayal, and the bladelock (which is a showing of strength, not speed or skill) was the only area where Palpatine appeared to be strained, and then he ragdolled him after disarming him. That, and Maul was clearly (and logically) amped by Dark Rage over his brother's death. In the novelized version, Palpatine just blitzes Maul's sabers out of his hand before ragdolling him.

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okayalright_44

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Both bloodlusted

Takes place in Hoth

Random encounter

All movie and comic feats apply

Maul only has Darksaber

15ft apart

LOL. Neither one of them has feats from the films.

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Beingfatissupercool

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@shootingnova:

Is there a sith that doesn't enjoy fighting ? Yes he is without doubt a lot more powerful then both of them combined, i never said otherwise .

Btw i must of missed that novelisation about that fight.

None the less Filoni said Savage gave Sidious more of a fight than the jedi council did, and we know Maul > Savage .

http://www.starwars.com/video/wrath-of-the-sith

1:29

Hmm i guess you are right about Maul having no feats at all in that fight except for Filoni's quote .

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Beingfatissupercool

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TheVivas

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They both freeze unless they have a Tauntaun to crawl into.

Other than that, Maul wins.

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okayalright_44

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@okayalright_44:

Seasee Tin putting on a lightsaber .

Loading Video...

0:03

feat

Syllabification: feat

Pronunciation: /fēt /

NOUN

An achievement that requires great courage, skill, or strength:

Source: Oxforddictionaries.com

So..no that's not a feat.

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Beingfatissupercool

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@okayalright_44:

It was a Joke ...

And yes that can be a feat actually .

We don't know him , so this might just been the biggest thing he's ever accomplished .

If a turtle can open a door, it is a feat for him, while opening a door according to you shouldn't be a feat , wrong .

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ShootingNova

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#18  Edited By ShootingNova

@beingfatissupercool: Oh, you're not getting under my skin, don't worry. You can keep twisting everything you want to have it appear in the way you'd like it to be, I let evidence speak for itself. Dave Filoni made it clear that Palpatine was holding back, neither he nor Palpatine has to word it in the most direct way that you would like.

Really, I don't know how you can walk around claiming that this was the biggest thing he ever accomplished. He has formed shields out of his blade, sparred evenly with Mace Windu, hurled droids four kilometers (Mace hurled one less than three), lifted and hurled huge droid parts, deflected homing missiles, smashed droids apart, etc. And don't claim that you knew this all along or whatever you claimed the last time you got corrected.

Why does Savage matter here? Of course he "put up a better fight", because he lasted longer, but the key difference was how much of his his power Sidious was utilizing. He went all-out with respects to speed and skill against the Jedi, whilst restraining his power until the lattermost portions of the fight, whereas with Savage and Maul, he dominated them quickly with power and let them down to fight him, and he repeatedly ragdolls them regardless despite holding back his speed significantly.

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@shootingnova:

I am talking about movie version Saesee first of all .

Oh please he even appears in the clone wars series, thrust me i know him better than you think, but this was movie version i was talking about . You guys are to serious also but that's ok .

He put up a better fight '' because he lasted longer '' is your own unofficial ungrounded speculation .

Might just be that and 20 other reasons , not that it matters .

The thing is , we don't know if Filoni meant Maul or Savage . Might just of been Maul . But putting up a better fight means the quality / length of the fight is better , If Sidious was holding in more than he did against the jedi council , this wouldn't be a better fight, it would last longer yes , but it wouldn't be the same quality , so in that case Filoni would never have said the words '' better fight '' .

Any ways i think it's obviously filoni means Savage was giving Sidious more resistance than the jedi council did , the end , and they live long and happy ever after .

Also if Sidious was responsible for the better fight, Filoni wouldn't mention Savage / Maul before the words , putting up a better fight .

Why does Savage matter here ? Because whatever he can , Maul can do better ( physically ) .

Also don't forget Savage killing a council member in seconds , after getting few days training, and he possesses some power from mother talzin .

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Mije_101

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Maul very solidly.

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ShootingNova

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#21  Edited By ShootingNova

@beingfatissupercool:

1. Ah, of course. You have some backdoor exit whenever somebody brings up points against you. The EU is validated by virtue of the OP, which allows Saesee's comic feats. So no, Maul isn't a full tier ahead of him, and you don't need to find some way to deny things when they're brought up against you, just as with EU Luke. If you lack material, then say so, don't pretend to possess that knowledge.

2. Do you have something better to present? Because that was certainly a better fight, but with that

3. So you can accuse me of not having direct evidence, yet you claim to know what "putting up a better fight" means yourself?

By virtue of the RotS novel, which is both edited and approved personally by George Lucas himself, then yes, Palpatine is too fast for Savage to even see. He is faster than Agen Kolar/Saesee Tiin/Anakin Skywalker can see, and yet Savage would be competing with him? Especially since in the novelized form of the fight, it's apparent Palpatine was holding back because he revealed he could speedblitz them during the conclusion of their duel, which is consistent with the theme portrayed in the RotS novel.

4. Not necessarily. That's a very generalized and flawed premise, even if it is correct.

5. Being a Council Member doesn't equal to power. Adi Gallia has nothing to compare to Saesee either, and it was a decent period of time, not just in a few seconds which you were implying. And Savage appeared to be somewhat enraged after Adi Gallia's attempt to kick him as well. Saesee sparred evenly with Mace and was one of the best duelists in the Order at the time/in the Order's entire history. He has thrown droids four kilometers, redirected homing missiles, and lifted and hurled huge droid parts. So he is very much in Maul's tier, and Adi has nothing to compare to Saesee, whom would beat her comfortably every time. Does that mean Saesee would even beat Maul once? No, but they are in a similar tier, so Maul would not simply walk over Saesee as if he were an entire tier ahead.

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Beingfatissupercool

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@shootingnova:

Okayalright said this : NEITHER OF THEM HAS FEATS FROM THE FILM .

So i assumed he was talking about MOVIE SAESEE AND MOVIE MAUL .

That's why i assumed we were talking about Movie Saesee , and for Movie Saesee we know nothing about him , simply as that , live with it .

You are saying that this '' Savage / Maul putting up a better fight than the council '' doesn't mean Savage / Maul gave Sidious more resistance than the jedi council ?

Please explain me how '' putting up a better fight than someone else '' doesn't mean being more capable of resisting ?

Series > Novelisation btw

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Beingfatissupercool

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@shootingnova said:

@beingfatissupercool:

By virtue of the RotS novel, which is both edited and approved personally by George Lucas himself, then yes, Palpatine is too fast for Savage to even see. He is faster than Agen Kolar/Saesee Tiin/Anakin Skywalker can see, and yet Savage would be competing with him? Especially since in the novelized form of the fight, it's apparent Palpatine was holding back because he revealed he could speedblitz them during the conclusion of their duel, which is consistent with the theme portrayed in the RotS novel.

But Lucas himself said that even tough he supervised it mainly, there's still the vision of the writer ( not G lucas ) in there so it shouldn't be taken as cannon .

I am not saying Savage can compete with him, i am just saying he did better than the jedi council, even tough Sidious was too fast for all of them, Savage did better than the jedi council .

If it says in the novel he could speedblitz savage, than that's not contradicting with Filoni , the logical answer could be that Savage on the end was harder to take down than the council .

4. Not necessarily. That's a very generalized and flawed premise, even if it is correct.

5. Being a Council Member doesn't equal to power. Adi Gallia has nothing to compare to Saesee either, and it was a decent period of time, not just in a few seconds which you were implying.

57 seconds actually ( is that decent ? )

And Savage appeared to be somewhat enraged after Adi Gallia's death as well. Saesee sparred evenly with Mace and was one of the best duelists in the Order at the time/in the Order's entire history. He has thrown droids four kilometers, redirected homing missiles, and lifted and hurled huge droid parts. So he is very much in Maul's tier, and Adi has nothing to compare to Saesee, whom would beat her comfortably every time. Does that mean Saesee would even beat Maul once? No, but they are in a similar tier, so Maul would not simply walk over Saesee as if he were an entire tier ahead.

Him being enraged after just killing someone ? Shouldn't that made him more calm knowing he just took a little bit of revenge ?

He fought with Mace how long ago ?

Being one of the best duelists in the order has been given to almost everyone ( including Gui-Gon who was no match for a weaker Maul version ) .

If Savage gave a better fight than Saesee Tin / Agen Kolar and Fisto toghetter did , then yes he would probably be a tier above Saesee .

would you say Kenobi is on Saesee's tier ?

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noah_ouellette

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@icecold14: well to be perfectly honest I doubt maul can solo anyone on the Jedi council, most Jedi knights probably, but they are Jedi masters and have been placed on the council for a reason.

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@beingfatissupercool: Thing is though, Sidious was toying with Maul and Savage. He made it obvious that he could have killed them from the beginning when he force choked them against the wall. He speed blitzed Saesee, who had no idea what he was fighting.

Maul should win the fight due to lack of Tiin feats

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Physcoreturn

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Darth Maul

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okayalright_44

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#28  Edited By okayalright_44

@beingfatissupercool said:

@shootingnova:

Okayalright said this : NEITHER OF THEM HAS FEATS FROM THE FILM .

So i assumed he was talking about MOVIE SAESEE AND MOVIE MAUL .

That's why i assumed we were talking about Movie Saesee , and for Movie Saesee we know nothing about him , simply as that , live with it .

You are saying that this '' Savage / Maul putting up a better fight than the council '' doesn't mean Savage / Maul gave Sidious more resistance than the jedi council ?

Please explain me how '' putting up a better fight than someone else '' doesn't mean being more capable of resisting ?

Series > Novelisation btw

The OP also stipulated that comic book feats apply, so why would you assume it was movie Tinn and movie TCW Maul? When the former has 0 feats, and the latter TCW version of Maul (Maul was killed in TPM) doesn't exist in the Films?

Btw way it's been confirmed by Disney executives or people in charge that the Novels of the 6 films and TCW movie are just as canon as long as parts remain consistent with the film and what's shown on screen.

http://www.theforce.net/story/front/Yes_The_Star_Wars_Movie_Novelizations_Are_Canon_157749.asp

And from what I remember: Tinn being considered a peer of Windu, one of the best swordsman in the Jedi Order, and therefore, one of the reasons he was called to face Sidious does NOT contradict the Films and is explicitly stated in the ROTS novelization.

Forget not the existence of Sidious. Anticipate your action, he may. Masters will be necessary, if the Lord of the Sith you must face."

"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."

"What about Skywalker? The chosen one."

"Too much of a risk," Mace replied. "I am the fourth."

Revenge of the Sith Novelization

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Beingfatissupercool

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@okayalright_44:

I was talking about you , not the OP , I thought you were talking about movie Saesee .

Example : scarlet witch in the avengers post credits
She is nobody at this very moment, so that's like Saesee to me ( movie version ) .
So Scarlett witch turning on a lightsaber could be a feat , because we don't know if she's actually capable of such things , for example if she can't touch things ( again for example ) , well for her that would be a feat .

I NEVER claimed novel information to be thrash , i said Series > Novels .

First of all , it doesn't say they are the 4 best jedi , because many were on the battlefield like Ayla, Ki-Adi , Kenobi and many others . Otherwise Yoda would of been in that team .

Many jedi's are said to be one of the best , it is an unreliable source which you shouldn't use .

Also it's been a long time since Saesee Tin fought Windu, people change , look at Anakin / Luke how their skills change in a matter of months / years , it's a bad feat .

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icecold14

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okayalright_44

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#31  Edited By okayalright_44

@okayalright_44:

I was talking about you , not the OP , I thought you were talking about movie Saesee .

My statements don't dictate what the OP has stipulated, so I don't see the point ignoring the latter's rules. It says comic book or EU Tinn and that's what we're discussing and to do otherwise is pointless and rather ignorant.... at least on your part. You can't flip what's clearly stated in the OP to suit your logic or argument; it's just against rules of the battle forum

Example : scarlet witch in the avengers post credits

She is nobody at this very moment, so that's like Saesee to me ( movie version ) .

Scarlet Witch wasn't at the end of the Avenger's post credit scene, she was at the end of "Captain America: The Winter Soldier"s post credit scene, and from what I remember she was clearly applying telekinesis to blocks in a holding cell, which is actually a feat (to a low degree) since no one else can casually do what she did or are unable to.

No Caption Provided

So get your information straight or else you'll keep making the same misinterpreted and ill-informed arguments you've been making the entire time you've been on this site.

So Scarlett witch turning on a lightsaber could be a feat , because we don't know if she's actually capable of such things , for example if she can't touch things ( again for example ) , well for her that would be a feat .

And you're logical is... Red Herring stop using them. What relevance does scarlet, who isn't even a Star Wars character, and her ability to ignite a lightsaber bear to this discussion? You're just rebutting with the most irrelevant stuff that I've ever read. With that said I'll humor you. 1) Yes if scarlet which was to ignite a lightsaber then that would evidently means she is cable of such. 2) However, in the Universe of Star Wars and by definition; that is not a "feat" since it did not take an adequate amount of skill or effort to accomplish. You do know that Luke Skywalker (before ever an ounce of Jedi training) AACCIDENTALLY ignited a lightsaber in front of Ben Kenobi, and Han Solo (who is not a Jedi nor force sensitive and had never used a lightsaber) held and used an ignited lightsaber to cut into the belly of a Tauntaun?

So explain to me how doing something, which people who have 0 understanding of, can do...is considered a feat?

I NEVER claimed novel information to be thrash , i said Series > Novels .

But an executives at Star Wars who are in charge or have been intricately involved with the New Canonization of Star Wars, just stated the Novels hold the same canonicity of the Series as long as what's stated in them is consistent. Show me how Tinn being considered one of the best swordsman in the Order and being selected to face Sidious, is inconsistent with the Films/Series?

First of all , it doesn't say they are the 4 best jedi , because many were on the battlefield like Ayla, Ki-Adi , Kenobi and many others . Otherwise Yoda would of been in that team .

Very poor Straw Man argument there buddy. I, nor the quote, stated that they were the best, and if you read it or the novel, you would know that. What it did state, is that they are 4 of the Order's best, not the best in the Order in numeric order. BTW Yoda is the one who told Mace Windu to engage Palpatine, and Mace hand picked the ones that he considered his peers, and given Windu's stature/accolades in the Jedi Order; it's more than a subjective statement, but an accurate one.

Many jedi's are said to be one of the best , it is an unreliable source which you shouldn't use .

Sources like those which are supported by feats, and consistency are very reliable sir, and many Jedi don't have feats supporting that claim (Fisto,Tinn and Agen all do). Nor do they have Mace Windu (stated several times by objectives sources like: Nick Gillard, Shatterpoint, ROTS, Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Star Wars databank etc. to be the Second most skilled Jedi in the Order) regarding them as his peers (which was stated before in Labyrinth of Evil). So it's consistent that those denoted in that ROTS quote are 4 of the Order's best and most skilled Jedi. For which you don't have any objective source to refute that claim, not unless you can show me sources claiming certain Jedi/Sith are the best in the history of the Jedi/Sith and there's nothing they've done to substantiate that assessment.

Also it's been a long time since Saesee Tin fought Windu, people change , look at Anakin / Luke how their skills change in a matter of months / years , it's a bad feat .

Very poor logic. It doesn't matter because at the time Tinn stalemated Windu, whom at time, was considered one of the best swordsman in the Order. You're examples of Anakin/Luke only support my argument that Tinn likely increased/improved in power/skill as both Luke and Anakin, which he and they both did. So are trying to say that since the time Tinn and Mace sparred that Tinn's skills atrophied when they evidently didn't or else Mace wouldn't have gestured at Tinn possibly being more powerful that him after he stopped missiles with TK and threw Driod over 4 kilometers( The Clone Wars Adventures), or Mace wouldn't have considered him a peer and one of the most celebrated swordsman in the Order (Dark Lord Trilogy): personally selecting him to face Sidious; the suspected Sith Lord. You don't have anything to support it being a bad feat other than your own bias and mis-informed opinion, so stop acting like you do.

It's only a bad feat because of your use of logically fallacious arguments which contradict objective sources. Why don't you actually try proving what is and what is not a credible feat!? Because as of right now, your comments are based entirely on an appeal to ignorance (another logical fallacy), you've failed to correct.

You're deflections just aren't working here. Gonna need you to put your money where your mouth is and actually provide a credible and better supported argument here other that "I don't agree with the argument or sources you're providing and they are therefore not credible or valid because I say so"---garbage

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@okayalright_44:

First of all , go to school . If you don't get the fact a feat could be a feat for someone if you don't know the persons basic history , then your just lost . I could keep discussing to make you realize that , but i hope you figure it out yourself some day .

Apparently you have no feeling for humor, and are asocial because you take everything to serious, with all do respect, as it was a joke, and you are criticizing a joke , while being incorrect .

Oh i'm sorry i said Avengers, you are whining about the most complete irrelevant information, that says a lot about your social skills .

I was being metaphorical with the lightsaber, wow if you don't get that , just wtf .

I'll say it once :

If you don't know a character, Everything you see of that person is a feat, to us it is at this moment their highest achievement ( A feat ) .

If she can't touch things because of a mutant power ( WE DON'T KNOW ) and she would lighten up a lightsaber none the less, then that would be a ACHIEVEMENT for her as for her that is something she has never done before .

Is counting to 5 a feat in general ? NO , not to us , but for a person we hear of the first time then YES , for it might just be a baby who knows .

Please be smarter and get this, please , with all do respect .

All i meant about Series > Novels, is that Shooting said Tcw Series are inconsistent , and i wanted to point out that the novels have to follow the Series, when did i ever say Novels are thrash again ?

Know what someone means before making a fool out of yourself by lecturing them with irrelevant words .

And why again do you bring up Mace Windu sources ? Have i ever said that it can't be used if it's not contradicting the series / movies ? And we are talking about the novelisations of Tcw series, so what the hell are you talking about .

It does contradict something, that's why i said Tcw > Novels , because the producer of Tcw says Savage put up a better fight than the jedi council, which is a source > Novels . And shooting said there was no way Savage could resist Sidious better than the jedi council .

Idc if they are consistent with feats from them in the novels and therefore very reliable, you can use it sure, but what does it help this topic further , it doesn't say he's better than person x or person Y , so why do you use that again ? , At that logic i can say pointless things as well .

Saying ' he was one of the best ' even if they have feats that claim they are, still doesn't say anything we can use in this battle, unless you have something saying , he was the third best, or he was the best , or he was better than person X , but that is just too vague , why are you using that again ? .

If you are saying Saesee Tin's feats compared to Windu from years ago are still true , then basically you are saying Anakin and Kenobi after 10 years should be automatically equally strong as well right ?

Windu is closer to his prime years than Saesee Tin in Rots , same with Kenobi / Anakin, so the difference in power should be decent .

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All I will say is that I made an error when I said "Adi Gallia's death". I meant Savage became enraged upon Adi Gallia's attempt to kick him.

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@spartankobe: I stopped reading after he said "go to school".

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#36  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator

@okayalright_44:

First of all , go to school . If you don't get the fact a feat could be a feat for someone if you don't know the persons basic history , then your just lost . I could keep discussing to make you realize that , but i hope you figure it out yourself some day .

Apparently you have no feeling for humor, and are asocial because you take everything to serious, with all do respect, as it was a joke, and you are criticizing a joke , while being incorrect .

Oh i'm sorry i said Avengers, you are whining about the most complete irrelevant information, that says a lot about your social skills .

Knock it off. First warning for insults (yes, saying "go to school" and calling him asocial count as insults), and general antagonistic behavior.

Now, get back on topic. None of this is relevant. Clearly, this is about movie and EU versions. Please read the OP in the future.

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#37  Edited By Penderor

As for the fight, I agree with the majority. Maul just has more feats.

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Beingfatissupercool

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@jedixman:

I knew it was EU , but it was a freaking joke and he was being too serious which i had no problems with , but saying i made a false statement was too much sorry .

But it won't happen again , my apologizes .

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@jedixman:

Thanks for defending him tough while he started insulting me while i didn't even know him , you should read all posts first before blaming me to be honest .

Every well educated person would understand that my joke was technically correct .

He said , Saesee has no feats from the movies , so if i show a video from Saesee putting on a lightsaber , and i made clear i was talking about movie Saesee afterwards, then i hope you can understand why i am bothered when people say i am an idiot because that isn't a feat , it IS ( from a certain point of view , a point of view i saw it from from the moment i posted that vid ) .

I guess with certain people here there is no place for happy ness , only seriousness and criticism even on jokes .

Again , thanks for defending him while he insulted me as much as i did to him , while he started .

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#40 JediXMan  Moderator

@jedixman:

Thanks for defending him tough while he started insulting me while i didn't even know him , you should read all posts first before blaming me to be honest .

Every well educated person would understand that my joke was technically correct .

He said , Saesee has no feats from the movies , so if i show a video from Saesee putting on a lightsaber , and i made clear i was talking about movie Saesee afterwards, then i hope you can understand why i am bothered when people say i am an idiot because that isn't a feat , it IS ( from a certain point of view , a point of view i saw it from from the moment i posted that vid ) .

I guess with certain people here there is no place for happy ness , only seriousness and criticism even on jokes .

Again , thanks for defending him while he insulted me as much as i did to him , while he started .

He didn't start with the insults, you did. You've essentially been trolling the entire time in this thread.

I read all posts, every time, before giving warnings. Do not tell me how to moderate the forums.

Now get back on topic. Further posts will be considered off topic.

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Bump:

Saesee wins. Holding his own against TPM Windu, a confirmed Yoda-tier, is much better than Maul being unable to compete with TCW Sidious.

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#42  Edited By Erkan12

@lord_tenebrous said:

Bump:

Saesee wins. Holding his own against TPM Windu, a confirmed Yoda-tier, is much better than Maul being unable to compete with TCW Sidious.

Stop spreading lies.

He never held his own against Windu. It was a sparring match. Even Quinlan Vos did the same. As well as Sora Bulq, Windu always holds back and fights defensively against his Jedi friends. There is even a passage states that Windu was fighting defensively only against one of his Jedi friends even when his Jedi friend was trying to kill him.

Maul held his own against serious and not holding back Windu and even when Aayla Secura was helping him in 2 v 1.

Maul's apprentice also performed better than the Jedi council did against Sidious.

Loading Video...

Maul > Savage > Saesee, Fisto and Kolar.

Maul stomps.

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@erkan12:

"He never held his own against Windu."

Yes, he did: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/jDUsSjhUVZNLpgVv8

"It was a sparring match."

And?

"Even Quinlan Vos did the same."

Yup, after Yoda declined. And Mace was visibly fighting with ease, while counseling Vos on his inner state. Then he stomped him. Even setting that aside, this was one instance. Just because Mace held back here, doesn't mean he held back against Saesee.  

"As well as Sora Bulq,"

Quote?

"Windu always holds back and fights defensively against his Jedi friends." 

Your proof for Mace always holding back against Jedi being one single fight.  

"Maul held his own against serious not holding back Windu when Aayla Secura was helping him."

Erkan, Erkan. You know better than to peddle lesser-canon sources. According to the highest canon(the movies and TCW), Maul can't hold his own against Mace. After all, according to the highest canon, Mace defeated Sidious:

https://youtu.be/7_dwkjQHre0

"They stop as MACE forces PALPATINE to drop his sword. PALPATINE and MACE start yelling at each other."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script 

"Okay, well this sequence always started out with Mace, uh overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber."

-- George Lucas  

And, according to the highest canon sources, Maul can't compete with Sidious:

https://youtu.be/-7hBZNsPnyg

"Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy." 

-- Dave Filoni 

According to the immovable objects to which all other tales must align, Mace > Sidious >>>> Maul. The lesser-canon fight you're trying to use depicts Maul as holding the upper hand over Mace+Aayla Secura. You're wrong again. 

"Maul's apprentice also performed better than the Jedi council did against Sidious."

Savage also performed better against Kenobi than Maul did. Unlike your pitiful attempt at leveling Savage above the Council, my example is actually valid. Sidious wasn't actually trying against Savage, and killed him with contemptuous ease. An unprepared and drastically hindered Council were defeated by an all-out Sidious. Savage performed better in that he lasted longer, but that's meaningless because he wasn't actually pressuring Sidious who wasn't going all-out, and Savage wasn't hindered.

"Stop spreading lies | Maul stomps."

Pick one.

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#44  Edited By Erkan12

@lord_tenebrous:

Windu did the same against Bulq and Quinlan, the sources states that Windu was highly stressed to fight with his old friend Bulq, and the comic states that Windu was only fighting defensively against Quinlan, and before that they were figting equally with Vos until Vos used the dark side then Windu stomped Vos. Sparring matches doesn't mean anything in Star Wars. Windu would stomp Saesee if he wanted. Hilarious argument.

The guy is still spreading lies with that imaginary ''highest canon'' fanfiction...

There is no ''highest canon'' in the new disney canon. You still don't learn that. Disney owns Star Wars not Lucas, which is why there is no highest canon anymore. There is only canon and there is also legends. They used many comic book and animation materials in the new disney movies after Maul's ressurection, TCW Maul appearing in Solo movie is a proof of that.

''Savage also performed better against Kenobi'' What?

Stop joking around, Maul saved Savage's ass from Kenobi at Florrum, twice.

It's also Maul > Dooku, you being a Dooku fanboy and spreading lies in every Maul thread will not help you to wank Dooku against Maul.

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Maul stomps.

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@erkan12:

"Windu did the same against Bulq"

Source?

"and Quinlan,"

As I stated before: 

Yup, after Yoda declined. And Mace was visibly fighting with ease, while counseling Vos on his inner state. Then he stomped him. Even setting that aside, this was one instance. Just because Mace held back here, doesn't mean he held back against Saesee.  

"the sources states that Windu was highly stressed to fight with his old friend Bulq,"

And? Jedi don't let emotions cloud their abilities. Just because Mace was distressed doesn't mean he let it hinder his ability. Mace Windu would be a pretty garbage Jedi if he let it get to him. 

"and the comic states that Windu was only fighting defensively against Quinlan, and before that they were figting equally with Vos until Vos used the dark side then Windu stomped Vos."

A) Mace was fighting defensively against Vos in another comic, where he was trying to bring Vos back from the dark side:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/gjGmpXB55fid7naW6

It wasn't a sparring match. Vos was trying to kill him, and Mace was trying to reason with him.

B) Mace casually blocked Quinlan's attack from behind: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NSC97GvQx9hVq5Hm8

And landed a hit:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/rupM9bYrgwNNrjRj7

They weren't matching evenly, and the first fight wasn't a sparring match. Maybe you didn't know. Looks like your knowledge of Star Wars wasn't good enough. 

"Sparring matches doesn't mean anything in Star Wars."

Yes, they do. Jedi spar to test their skills with a lightsaber, they try their best to overcome the other without injury. It's no different from a friendly match in any other fighting art. 

"Windu would stomp Saesee if he wanted."

ROTS Windu? Yes. TPM Windu? Nope.

"The guy is still spreading lies with that imaginary 'highest canon' fanfiction... There is no 'highest canon' in the new disney canon. You still don't learn that. Disney owns Star Wars not Lucas, which is why there is no highest canon anymore. There is only canon and there is also legends. They used many comic book and animation materials in the new disney movies after Maul's ressurection, TCW Maul appearing in Solo movie is a proof of that." 

Wrong. According to the canon Lucasfilm Storygroup, the movies and TCW are highest: 

"While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align."

-- LucasFilm Storygroup

Once again, the facts disagree with you.

"Stop joking around, Maul saved Savage's ass from Kenobi at Florrum, twice." 

Maybe you didn't know, maybe your Star Wars knowledge wasn't good enough, but a tired out, injured Savage who didn't want to fight, "battered" his way past Obi-Wan AND Anakin: 

"Savage then battered his way back to the frigate's hangar, past Obi-Wan and Anakin. The weary warrior had no interest in conquest, only escape." 

-- StarWars.com: Biography Gallery 

"After a grueling fight with Count Dooku and Asajj Ventress, Savage batters his way back to the frigate's hangar, past Obi-Wan and Anakin and a squadron of battle droids. The weary warrior had no interest in conquest, only escape."

-- StarWars.com: Video Guide

"Wounded and fatigued, Savage returned to Dathomir and Mother Talzin, searching for a new focus." 

-- StarWars.com: Biography Gallery 

A tired and injured Savage forced Anakin and Obi-Wan down multiple hallways for a good amount of time. Meanwhile, on Florrum, a (mentally hindered) Maul was losing to Obi-Wan by himself. 

"It's also Maul > Dooku, you being a Dooku fanboy and spreading lies in every Maul thread will not help you to wank Dooku against Maul"

I think you're obsessed with Dooku and Maul, given that you brought them up even when I've not mentioned them. Stop it, get some help.

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Maul stomps

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#48  Edited By Erkan12
@lord_tenebrous said:

"The guy is still spreading lies with that imaginary 'highest canon' fanfiction... There is no 'highest canon' in the new disney canon. You still don't learn that. Disney owns Star Wars not Lucas, which is why there is no highest canon anymore. There is only canon and there is also legends. They used many comic book and animation materials in the new disney movies after Maul's ressurection, TCW Maul appearing in Solo movie is a proof of that."

Wrong. According to the canon Lucasfilm Storygroup, the movies and TCW are highest:

"While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align."

-- LucasFilm Storygroup

Once again, the facts disagree with you.

Yes Lucas, that guy has nothing to do with Star Wars right now. A nice joke indeed.

@lord_tenebrous said:

"Stop joking around, Maul saved Savage's ass from Kenobi at Florrum, twice."

Maybe you didn't know, maybe your Star Wars knowledge wasn't good enough, but a tired out, injured Savage who didn't want to fight, "battered" his way past Obi-Wan AND Anakin:

"Savage then battered his way back to the frigate's hangar, past Obi-Wan and Anakin. The weary warrior had no interest in conquest, only escape."

-- StarWars.com: Biography Gallery

A tired and injured Savage forced Anakin and Obi-Wan down multiple hallways for a good amount of time. Meanwhile, on Florrum, a (mentally hindered) Maul was losing to Obi-Wan by himself.

I am talking about Florrum fight, and you talk about Savage's other feats without Maul...

Savage escaping from Kenobi and Anakin doesn't change the fact that Maul > Savage and Savage was going to lose to Kenobi at Florrum without Maul's help.

Maul Force blasted Kenobi's ass and knocked him down for a while at Florrum. That's a better Force feat than every other feat of Savage's. Including Force choking Dooku and Ventress at the same time, because it didn't knock them down for a while.

@lord_tenebrous said:

"It's also Maul > Dooku, you being a Dooku fanboy and spreading lies in every Maul thread will not help you to wank Dooku against Maul"

I think you're obsessed with Dooku and Maul, given that you brought them up even when I've not mentioned them. Stop it, get some help.

LOL. I am not the one bumping old Dooku threads and lowballing him with ridiculous arguments. And only you would believe Dooku would stomp Vader.

@lord_tenebrous said:

@erkan12:

"Windu did the same against Bulq"

Source?

"and Quinlan,"

As I stated before:

Yup, after Yoda declined. And Mace was visibly fighting with ease, while counseling Vos on his inner state. Then he stomped him. Even setting that aside, this was one instance. Just because Mace held back here, doesn't mean he held back against Saesee.

Yes it means Windu was holding back against Saesee due to fact that both Vos and Saesee are his Jedi friends.

@lord_tenebrous said:

@erkan12:

"Windu did the same against Bulq"

Source?

Fact files.

''Mace was highly distressed that his mission involved fighting his old friend and colleague Sora Bulq.''

Source : Fact Files #108

@lord_tenebrous said:

"the sources states that Windu was highly stressed to fight with his old friend Bulq,"

And? Jedi don't let emotions cloud their abilities. Just because Mace was distressed doesn't mean he let it hinder his ability. Mace Windu would be a pretty garbage Jedi if he let it get to him.

What And?

The point is people like Kenobi, Anakin etc. All of them gets emotional when they were fighting with their Jedi friends. Windu is no exception. It's incredible that someone can't understand this simple fact.

@lord_tenebrous said:

"Sparring matches doesn't mean anything in Star Wars."

Yes, they do. Jedi spar to test their skills with a lightsaber, they try their best to overcome the other without injury. It's no different from a friendly match in any other fighting art.

So in your mind Yoda = Dooku since they were sparring with each other? LOL.

@lord_tenebrous said:

"and the comic states that Windu was only fighting defensively against Quinlan, and before that they were figting equally with Vos until Vos used the dark side then Windu stomped Vos."

A) Mace was fighting defensively against Vos in another comic, where he was trying to bring Vos back from the dark side:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/gjGmpXB55fid7naW6

It wasn't a sparring match. Vos was trying to kill him, and Mace was trying to reason with him.

B) Mace casually blocked Quinlan's attack from behind:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NSC97GvQx9hVq5Hm8

And landed a hit:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/rupM9bYrgwNNrjRj7

They weren't matching evenly, and the first fight wasn't a sparring match. Maybe you didn't know. Looks like your knowledge of Star Wars wasn't good enough.

So in your mind, Mace was fighting more offensively against Saesee, and he should heavily wounded Saesee while fighting with him? LOL.

@lord_tenebrous said:

Bump:

Saesee wins. Holding his own against TPM Windu, a confirmed Yoda-tier,

You say this,

@lord_tenebrous said:

is much better than Maul being unable to compete with TCW Sidious.

Then you forget that Saesee got one-shotted by Sidious.

No Caption Provided

Since I just proved that you're trolling on purpose in every single Maul thread, are you going to stop now?

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@erkan12:

"Yes Lucas, that guy has nothing to do with Star Wars right now. A nice joke indeed."

Try reading:

"While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align."

-- LucasFilm Storygroup

It says these ARE the immovable objects to which all other tales must align. Not were. Are. It talked about Lucas, then it switched to the present. In canon, the movies and TCW >>> all else.

"I am talking about Florrum fight, and you talk about Savage's other feats without Maul..."

Literally yes. Feats are feats. Savage vastly outperformed Maul against Kenobi. 

"Savage escaping from Kenobi and Anakin doesn't change the fact that Maul > Savage and Savage was going to lose to Kenobi at Florrum without Maul's help."

You mean, an exhausted and injured Savage who didn't want to duel, outfighting Anakin and Obi-Wan combined. Savage, in a cramped space, with poor teamwork with a teammate who is mentally hindered, fighting against an amped Kenobi, was going to lose. 

When Savage is by himself, even when tired, disinterested and wounded he's better than Anakin and Obi-Wan combined, while Maul is still comparable to Kenobi alone. 

"Maul Force blasted Kenobi's ass and knocked him down for a while at Florrum. That's a better Force feat than every other feat of Savage's. Including Force choking Dooku and Ventress at the same time, because it didn't knock them down for a while."

No, Savage ragdolling Maul and Judd at the same time is better than Maul ragdolling Kenobi. And, ragdolling Dooku and Ventress who are stronger than Sidious is vastly superior to ragdolling Kenobi. But those are feats from amped Savage, they're irrelevent. 

"LOL. I am not the one bumping old Dooku threads"

What fiction is this? Look at my history the past 3 weeks. I've only bumped 1 Dooku thread. As I said before, obsessed.

"lowballing him with ridiculous arguments."

Subjective without evidence.  

"And only you would believe Dooku would stomp Vader." 

"Yes it means Windu was holding back against Saesee due to fact that both Vos and Saesee are his Jedi friends." 

Nope. Mace visibly holding back on one single occasion in sparring doesn't mean that he holds back in every single sparring match. 

"Fact files." 

Again, Mace being distressed doesn't equate to him holding back. 

"The point is people like Kenobi,"

Exception, not the rule.

"Anakin etc. All of them gets emotional when they were fighting with their Jedi friends."

You lost all credibility when you placed Anakin and Mace together in the same sentence in regard to mental fortitude. Well, you didn't have any to begin with. 

We all know that Anakin is a model Jedi when it comes to emotions. 

"Windu is no exception. It's incredible that someone can't understand this simple fact."

Literally he is. If Mace allows betrayal to get to him, then he's a garbage Jedi because his mental discipline is on par with that of regular people. Are you telling me that the youngest Jedi ever appointed to the Council, the former leader of the Council, has weak emotions like Anakin and regular people? LOL. 

Yoda didn't allow his emotions to get in the way of trying to kill Dooku.    

"So in your mind Yoda = Dooku since they were sparring with each other? LOL."

It indicates that they are comparable, yes. Which is proven when in AOTC, when both fighters were fighting to kill, Dooku matched Yoda for nearly 40 seconds. 

"So in your mind, Mace was fighting more offensively against Saesee, and he should heavily wounded Saesee while fighting with him? LOL"

In reality, there's no evidence to suggest that Mace was fighting only defensively against Saesee, and it defies logic as well. I don't know what you're talking about in regard to injury.

"Then you forget that Saesee got one-shotted by Sidious."

Circumstances child. Sidious had been gathering his power prior to engaging them: 

"Releasing his anger as he focused his strength, the Sith Lord accused the Jedi of treason." 

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched #25

And, the Jedi had underestimated Palpatine: 

"Even upon learning of his true nature as a Dark Lord of the Sith, the Jedi underestimated Darth Sidious when they confronted him." 

-- Star Wars: Force Collection 

Indeed, they did not expect any significant resistance from him, and Sidious' lethal ferocity with a lightsaber and the fury of his attack was a surprise that they could not have predicted: 

"The fury of Darth Sidious' attack on the Jedi Masters who had come to arrest him was beyond anything they anticipated." 

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched #25

"When Mace Windu and select Jedi warriors attempted to arrest Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, they were not prepared for his devastating counter attack." 

-- Star Wars: Galactic Files #ROTS-9

"While the Jedi might have thought him capable of some resistance, none could have predicted Sidious' lethal ferocity with a lightsaber. This is one of a great many surprises Sidious intends to spring upon the Order."

-- Star Wars: Force Collection   

Then Sidious used a Dark Side Confusion Haze on them: 

"His innocent appearance as Chancellor Palpatine, along with an application of a concentrated dark side confusion haze, enabled Darth Sidious to take down Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto, and Saesee Tiin. This left Mace Windu to face the Sith Lord."  

-- Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force 

Then Sidious threw a wall of concentrated hatred, described as a thousand years strong, at the Jedi which confused and disoriented them, and shattered their focus: 

"A wall of focused hatred, a thousand years strong, blasted the Jedi as Sidious leapt at them, twisting through the air and shrieking with maddening anger. The Jedi Masters fell back, confused. Agen Kolar, so disoriented he had lost sight of his enemy, was cut down instantly. The Sith tore his blade free and slashed it into Saesee Tiin, killing him too. Mace Windu and Kit Fisto tried to rally, attacking as one. Fisto floundered, his focus shattered. He too fell. Mace Windu was alone." 

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched #25

This attack also disrupted Mace's inner peace for a long time, which enabled Sidious to hold the upper hand until Mace internally balanced himself again:

"Mace Windu was alone. Sidious kept up the pressure even as Mace sought to find the still point in himself that would allow the Force to flow. He retreated through the Chancellor's offices, always defending. Darth Sidious was relentless, his fury lending him mastery of the dark side and of the battle. However, in the greater space offered by the Chancellor's public office, Mace was able to somehow find the inner peace he sought. Their opposite energies now more balanced, Sith and Jedi locked their lightsabers. Slowly, slowly, Mace began to bear down on Sidious."  

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched #25

If it happened to Mace Windu, then we can assume that it also disrupted his companions' inner peace as well. 

Nonetheless, the argument isn't that Saesee can compete with ROTS Sidious while Maul can't. Neither can, as per Lucas. You have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor. I said Saesee matching TPM Mace is much better than getting stomped by TCW Sidious. Which is objectively true. 

"Since I just proved that you're trolling on purpose in every single Maul thread, are you going to stop now?"

You've done nothing but humiliate yourself.

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#50  Edited By Erkan12

@lord_tenebrous said:

@erkan12:

"Yes Lucas, that guy has nothing to do with Star Wars right now. A nice joke indeed."

Try reading:

"While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align."

-- LucasFilm Storygroup

It says these ARE the immovable objects to which all other tales must align. Not were. Are. It talked about Lucas, then it switched to the present. In canon, the movies and TCW >>> all else.

Where it says ''higher canon''? No where.

There is no higher canon or lesser canon, that's your fanfiction. Immovable doesn't mean higher canon, LOL.

@lord_tenebrous said:

"LOL. I am not the one bumping old Dooku threads"

What fiction is this? Look at my history the past 3 weeks. I've only bumped 1 Dooku thread. As I said before, obsessed.

Sorry you couldn't understand simple things. That's called using ''irony''.

Since you said I am obssessed with Dooku. I never bump old Dooku threads, while you bump old Maul threads to spread lies.

@lord_tenebrous said:

"I am talking about Florrum fight, and you talk about Savage's other feats without Maul..."

Literally yes. Feats are feats. Savage vastly outperformed Maul against Kenobi.

"Savage escaping from Kenobi and Anakin doesn't change the fact that Maul > Savage and Savage was going to lose to Kenobi at Florrum without Maul's help."

You mean, an exhausted and injured Savage who didn't want to duel, outfighting Anakin and Obi-Wan combined. Savage, in a cramped space, with poor teamwork with a teammate who is mentally hindered, fighting against an amped Kenobi, was going to lose.

When Savage is by himself, even when tired, disinterested and wounded he's better than Anakin and Obi-Wan combined, while Maul is still comparable to Kenobi alone.

"Maul Force blasted Kenobi's ass and knocked him down for a while at Florrum. That's a better Force feat than every other feat of Savage's. Including Force choking Dooku and Ventress at the same time, because it didn't knock them down for a while."

No, Savage ragdolling Maul and Judd at the same time is better than Maul ragdolling Kenobi. And, ragdolling Dooku and Ventress who are stronger than Sidious is vastly superior to ragdolling Kenobi. But those are feats from amped Savage, they're irrelevent.

''outfighting'' LOL, he never did that, which is why he escaped.

You're comparing Canon to Legends now huh? Since you've no argument and you're desperate now. Stop using Legends against Canon, after all you're the one declaring imaginary ''higher canon'' bullshits. You should know that Canon > Legends, but somehow you use Judd, who is a Legends character only to lowball Maul now? Desperate... You're very desperate.

And Savage never ragdolled Maul and Judd, that's another lie. Getting a feedback from a shockwave is not ragdolling.

Maul KOed Kenobi for a while after blasting his ass with the Force in that cave, he gave him a concussion. Savage did no such a thing like that.

No Caption Provided

- The Clone Wars: Season 5 Episode 01

@lord_tenebrous said:

"And only you would believe Dooku would stomp Vader."

"Yes it means Windu was holding back against Saesee due to fact that both Vos and Saesee are his Jedi friends."

Nope. Mace visibly holding back on one single occasion in sparring doesn't mean that he holds back in every single sparring match.

"Fact files."

Again, Mace being distressed doesn't equate to him holding back.

"The point is people like Kenobi,"

Exception, not the rule.

"Anakin etc. All of them gets emotional when they were fighting with their Jedi friends."

You lost all credibility when you placed Anakin and Mace together in the same sentence in regard to mental fortitude. Well, you didn't have any to begin with.

We all know that Anakin is a model Jedi when it comes to emotions.

"Windu is no exception. It's incredible that someone can't understand this simple fact."

Literally he is. If Mace allows betrayal to get to him, then he's a garbage Jedi because his mental discipline is on par with that of regular people. Are you telling me that the youngest Jedi ever appointed to the Council, the former leader of the Council, has weak emotions like Anakin and regular people? LOL.

Yoda didn't allow his emotions to get in the way of trying to kill Dooku.

"So in your mind Yoda = Dooku since they were sparring with each other? LOL."

It indicates that they are comparable, yes. Which is proven when in AOTC, when both fighters were fighting to kill, Dooku matched Yoda for nearly 40 seconds.

"So in your mind, Mace was fighting more offensively against Saesee, and he should heavily wounded Saesee while fighting with him? LOL"

In reality, there's no evidence to suggest that Mace was fighting only defensively against Saesee, and it defies logic as well. I don't know what you're talking about in regard to injury.

The fact that we know Jedi holds back a lot in sparring matches is the proof of your lies.

It's not like Windu was going to stomp Saesee when he was holding back of majority of his offensive powers. It's no different than Yoda dueling with Dooku and it's not like Yoda was going all out in order to defeat Dooku, otherwise the Jedi could've killed each other while sparring.

Windu was clearly holding back against Bulq, and he stomped Bulq when he sensed something going on, that would be the same with Saesee.

Yoda was clearly holding back against Dooku as well, the proof is that he uses the Force offensively against Sidious, while he never uses the Force offensively against Dooku. Otherwise Yoda would stomp Dooku just like Anakin did.

Whoever think Dooku is comparable to Yoda shouldn't be taken seriously, I don't know why I am wasting my time with you.

If Windu doesn't even fight offensively with a Jedi who falls to the dark side, then there is no way he would fight offensively in a friendly contest or he would go all out, that's very simple.

@lord_tenebrous said:

"Then you forget that Saesee got one-shotted by Sidious."

Circumstances child. Sidious had been gathering his power prior to engaging them:

"Releasing his anger as he focused his strength, the Sith Lord accused the Jedi of treason."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched #25

And, the Jedi had underestimated Palpatine:

"Even upon learning of his true nature as a Dark Lord of the Sith, the Jedi underestimated Darth Sidious when they confronted him."

-- Star Wars: Force Collection

Indeed, they did not expect any significant resistance from him, and Sidious' lethal ferocity with a lightsaber and the fury of his attack was a surprise that they could not have predicted:

"The fury of Darth Sidious' attack on the Jedi Masters who had come to arrest him was beyond anything they anticipated."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched #25

"When Mace Windu and select Jedi warriors attempted to arrest Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, they were not prepared for his devastating counter attack."

-- Star Wars: Galactic Files #ROTS-9

"While the Jedi might have thought him capable of some resistance, none could have predicted Sidious' lethal ferocity with a lightsaber. This is one of a great many surprises Sidious intends to spring upon the Order."

-- Star Wars: Force Collection

Then Sidious used a Dark Side Confusion Haze on them:

"His innocent appearance as Chancellor Palpatine, along with an application of a concentrated dark side confusion haze, enabled Darth Sidious to take down Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto, and Saesee Tiin. This left Mace Windu to face the Sith Lord."

-- Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

Then Sidious threw a wall of concentrated hatred, described as a thousand years strong, at the Jedi which confused and disoriented them, and shattered their focus:

"A wall of focused hatred, a thousand years strong, blasted the Jedi as Sidious leapt at them, twisting through the air and shrieking with maddening anger. The Jedi Masters fell back, confused. Agen Kolar, so disoriented he had lost sight of his enemy, was cut down instantly. The Sith tore his blade free and slashed it into Saesee Tiin, killing him too. Mace Windu and Kit Fisto tried to rally, attacking as one. Fisto floundered, his focus shattered. He too fell. Mace Windu was alone."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched #25

This attack also disrupted Mace's inner peace for a long time, which enabled Sidious to hold the upper hand until Mace internally balanced himself again:

"Mace Windu was alone. Sidious kept up the pressure even as Mace sought to find the still point in himself that would allow the Force to flow. He retreated through the Chancellor's offices, always defending. Darth Sidious was relentless, his fury lending him mastery of the dark side and of the battle. However, in the greater space offered by the Chancellor's public office, Mace was able to somehow find the inner peace he sought. Their opposite energies now more balanced, Sith and Jedi locked their lightsabers. Slowly, slowly, Mace began to bear down on Sidious."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched #25

If it happened to Mace Windu, then we can assume that it also disrupted his companions' inner peace as well.

Nonetheless, the argument isn't that Saesee can compete with ROTS Sidious while Maul can't. Neither can, as per Lucas. You have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor. I said Saesee matching TPM Mace is much better than getting stomped by TCW Sidious. Which is objectively true.

"Since I just proved that you're trolling on purpose in every single Maul thread, are you going to stop now?"

You've done nothing but humiliate yourself.

What circumstances?

One moment you say Maul couldn't fight with Sidious, then you make up excuses for Saesee getting one-shotted by same Sidious.

Then you make up more excuses for Dave Filoni's statement where he says Maul > Savage > Saesee, Fisto and Kolar.

Listen again, and again.

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''He puts up a better fight than Jedi council did.''

And Maul even puts up a better fight than Savage as well.

Maul defeats Savage Opress with ease. Savage is at the this point physically strong enough to overwhelm Count Dooku and disarm him.

No Caption Provided

- The Clone Wars: Season 5 Episode 01

Maul kicks Sidious in a duel.

No Caption Provided

- The Clone Wars: Season 5 Episode 16

Yes, you humiliated yourself with your obvious double standards towards Maul.