Darth Maul (TCW) - Force only gauntlet

Rules:

• Force only.
• Random encounters.
• They start 50 feet apart.
• Fight takes place here:

Gauntet:

1. Darth Bandon
2. Bastila Shan
3. Atris
4. Darth Thanaton
5. Satele Shan
6. Darth Malak
7. Darth Traya
8. Arcann
9. Vaylin

Call out

Star Wars:

4, 6 or 7

Probably round 6

@death-killer: 6 or 7 i guess

Probably 7, definitely 8.

6

5 or 6, Malak should be above Traya though.

Stops at 6 or 7.

I don't know much about Thanaton. Satele versus Maul could go either way, but I think Maul is the more powerful. I doubt he would get past Malak, and I sincerely doubt he would take even a single round against Traya, let alone Arcann.

Stops at 5 or 6. Also, great idea for a gauntlet. I see many people underrating Maul's Force powers and distributing the notion that somehow Maul is a poor Force user. However, the opposite, is in fact, true. He is a great Force wielder, especially with his varied and powerful applications of telekinesis and force augmentation.

6 or 7.

Stops at 9, his feats are just better

How are his feats better than Traya's?

I'd think that a case for him stopping at Malak would be plausible as well.

I don't think he can get past Traya.

You could make a case that Drain could be effective against him since he doesn't really know the counter technique for it but in sheer TK power? Yeah, I mean he was dominating Kenobi at this point (who himself was lifting up giant airships years almost a decade before TCW and apparently to the recently discovered feat he was manipulating ships for a long duration of time with extreme ease), was considered more powerful than Savage (who was throwing around ships before continuously growing in power until he met Maul), TK'ing massive amounts of Clone Troopers alongside Savage (who's his inferior in power) and Force Waving dozens and dozens of droids in SoD. If we would extent this to Rebels (although I know that this is about CW Maul) his superiority (as in leagues above these characters) over the Inquisitors, Kanan and Ezra would even further support his case, the Inquisitors have raised 100m temples and dominated S1/S2 Kanan while the latter has moved around ship-sized asteroids at incredible speed in the very beginning of Rebels and I believe it becomes even more clear how his level of power is just beyond that of Traya, Malak or even Arcann (I don't really know what to make of Vaylin at this point so I consider her superior until I learn more about her power in KotET).

@darthduelist9: I'm not talking about Drain, although that would be helpful in demonstrating her power. Comparing telekinesis is a bit complicated, but it's worth noting that most of the feats you mentioned involved very direct, palpable exertions of Force energy. Traya making nearly twenty of the strongest Sith of her time just drop dead on the spot is an incredible showing, considering that most Force users couldn't even do something of the sort to even non-Force sensitives.

I'd argue that her domination of the Council - including people like Vrook, who can place the Exile in Stasis, and Kavar, who can place a squad of soldiers into catatonic states without even moving - should be up there with Maul's performance against the likes of Obi-Wan (even disregarding the potential circumstances in his showings against Kenobi). That's not necessarily because the Council is as powerful (although their combined power is definitely very considerable), but the degree to which Traya dominated them infinitely outstrips the degree to which Maul has dominated Obi-Wan, or his degree of superiority over Savage, etc. I mean, where you're discussing how Maul can ragdoll Obi-Wan or overpower Savage with the Force, I'm talking about Traya outright killing the Council with a single move.

With regards to Telepathy, continuously Mind Controlling several of the most powerful Jedi Masters across the galaxy as she does her business is a colossal feat and one that Maul doesn't even begin to compare to in the mental department. I would also mention Traya's Sense powers, which allow her to Sense even beings across the galaxy shortly after she was severed from the Force.

Passing Traya is even more difficult because her Healing is insane enough to make virtually dead people stand up again without even moving. Granted, it'll be less effective when she uses it on herself (since she'd only use it when she's injured, which reduces the potency of her Healing to begin with), but it's a significant advantage over Maul. I can't really see Maul beating her when her Healing can circumvent any damage he inflicts with his telekinesis (which is limited at best), whereas she can Drain from him, attack him with TP, has stronger TK, etc.

Traya's feats are just better than Maul's. She's clearly more masterful, knowledgeable and powerful in the Force.

Maul can't ragdoll Kenobi, lol.

It's not as if we have seen him doing it a couple times, oh wait we have but I guess there's of course an excuse waiting for those instances.

Excuse us if we have a hard time believing the guy who struggles in a fit of anger to pull a shuttle off a cliff can ragdoll the one who effortlessly lifts a 40 meter cruiser

Oh yeah of course, it's not as if both occassions were created by different writers and I mean just neglecting things we've seen because they seem 'impossible' to you is really going to be a great argument.

And all of those times had circumstances to them. We've never actually seen Maul ragdoll Kenobi in a fair fight, nor dispatch him with the Force in one. An enraged Maul's Force Wave has failed to knock Obi unconscious, something Tyranus can do with a "whipcrack of power". Pardon me for not thinking Maul can utterly dominate someone who can potentially resist a choke hold from Dooku and can deflect telekinetic waves from Anakin. :up:

That really depends on how things are depicted, who where these Sith? What have they done that makes them so powerful and impressive? You're main argument is going to go with the amount of characters she ragdolled, not the power they possess.

The thing is, it all looks cool and impressive but that's really it. Besides that they're the council and all they haven't done anything that could come remotely close to even characters like The Inquisitors or Kanan, the main thing your trying to argue is that it's impressive from a holistic point of view which isn't quantifiable since there are numerous unknown factors in play (e.g. how does they power hold up to PT era) so I'm preferring the more quantifiable method in terms of feats and accolades.

Indeed but what effect would it have on Maul besides making him more angry? I mean, his feats of willpower as insane so him resisting Traya isn't exactly out of his league.

Her healing is only going to extend the duel, not win it for her. Maul's own endurance and pain tolerance (and the fact he has shown more quantifiable power) would enable him to keep smashing Traya until the point she can't heal herself anymore, she can't perform this endlessly.

I agree that Traya's more masterful and knowledgeable in the Force compared to Maul, mind that this version of Maul has the same experience and knowledge a 22 year old one and even then it's quite extensive, but more powerful? Maul's shown to have more direct power to his disposal that he's, under the right circumstances, willing to use and more combat applicable (Wave, Push, Grip) while Traya's main advantages come through Drain, TP and healing which, considering Maul's insane willpower and endurance, could at best prolong the fight.

Circumstances? We've seen Obi-Wan three times run up to Maul, lightsaber raised and combat ready, to only get knocked back by his power and yes on Florrum Obi-Wan even possessed an extra amount of concentration because of Gallia's death. Tyranus pushed Obi-Wan back with "a whipcrack of power", never utterly dominated him with that amount of power and because the junior novel leaves open the idea that Obi-Wan could've countered Dooku's choke now is an advantage for him? To my knowledge Dooku still dominates Kenobi in the movie either way and well Mutafar Anakin was obviously hindered since he's only stalemating him despite that he was already more powerful than Obi-Wan in the Clone Wars.

Could stop at 4 or 5, definetely stops at 6

@darthduelist9:

That really depends on how things are depicted, who where these Sith? What have they done that makes them so powerful and impressive? You're main argument is going to go with the amount of characters she ragdolled, not the power they possess.

There's nothing about these Sith other than the fact that they're among the strongest of their time. And it's not even the amount of them that impresses me (although that is, of course, a factor), it's the fact that she can just make them drop dead on the spot. You could hardly show me characters like Maul doing that. Because it's just not the type of showing that characters of Maul's caliber have ever displayed.

The thing is, it all looks cool and impressive but that's really it. Besides that they're the council and all they haven't done anything that could come remotely close to even characters like The Inquisitors or Kanan, the main thing your trying to argue is that it's impressive from a holistic point of view which isn't quantifiable since there are numerous unknown factors in play (e.g. how does they power hold up to PT era) so I'm preferring the more quantifiable method in terms of feats and accolades.

I just provided you the feats. Vrook's placed the Exile in Stasis (among other feats that I can elucidate upon for you), Kavar's placed a squad of soldiers in catatonic states without even moving, and Zez-Kai Ell has opened blast doors that even Wookiees couldn't, again without even moving. All of them are individually capable of reconstructing the Jedi Enclave, and Traya utterly destroyed them. There's no point in pretending that they can't compare to Inquisitors or Kanan, who factually sit below Masters in general (let alone some of the most powerful ever). And holistic scaling works - Masters who learn some of the greatest techniques ever and can cut off powerful Force-sensitives from the Force are obviously far, far more powerful than the Inquisitors or Kanan.

Sure, they might not be as powerful as Obi-Wan (although collectively, they probably at least approach him), but Maul ragdolling Obi-Wan doesn't even come close to Traya killing the Council. That's my point.

Indeed but what effect would it have on Maul besides making him more angry? I mean, his feats of willpower as insane so him resisting Traya isn't exactly out of his league.

Disrupting his use of the Force would be a major one. Which feats of willpower in particular are insane?

Also, my point is that TK isn't the only way to measure power, especially since Traya's feats are all effortless - we don't even know what her cap is. However, we've seen her powers in other areas that are simply beyond Maul's capabilities altogether. It stands to reason that she's just more powerful.

Her healing is only going to extend the duel, not win it for her. Maul's own endurance and pain tolerance (and the fact he has shown more quantifiable power) would enable him to keep smashing Traya until the point she can't heal herself anymore, she can't perform this endlessly.

My point is that her endurance (which is pretty insane in of itself), combined with her Healing, is going to outmatch Maul's endurance. Certainly once you factor in Drain, there's no contest whatsoever. Maul would never outlast Traya.

I agree that Traya's more masterful and knowledgeable in the Force compared to Maul, mind that this version of Maul has the same experience and knowledge a 22 year old one and even then it's quite extensive, but more powerful? Maul's shown to have more direct power to his disposal that he's, under the right circumstances, willing to use and more combat applicable (Wave, Push, Grip) while Traya's main advantages come through Drain, TP and healing which, considering Maul's insane willpower and endurance, could at best prolong the fight.

The problem is that Maul only has access to telekinesis here, and even from your standpoint, he doesn't eclipse Traya by enough to inflict any meaningful damage on her. Her own endurance is insane, and her Healing is enough for her to effortlessly recover from minor bruising or scratches that Maul could inflict with TK - he won't be doing anything worse to her. Whereas Traya has a hugely varied list of powers - TK, TP, Lightning, Drain, Healing, etc.

It helps that she's faster than Maul, too, which allows her to get the first hit in or catch him off-guard more easily. It's much easier for me to see Traya maintaining sustained dominance over Maul in the Force than the reverse, because she's more powerful for one, but also because she can disrupt his telekinetic control much more easily (with TP or Lightning etc).

maybe stops at 5, most likely stops 6 and definitely stops at 7

Malak, but I could see Thanaton fropping him with Sorcery.

He stands no chance at Traya and Arcann, and get's destroyed by Vaylin.

Also, DD9, you know that using Holistical scaling against KoTOR II characters is actually a good idea?

@darthduelist9: Circumstances? We've seen Obi-Wan three times run up to Maul, lightsaber raised and combat ready, to only get knocked back by his power and yes on Florrum Obi-Wan even possessed an extra amount of concentration because of Gallia's death.

These three times being? On Florrum, an enraged Force Wave from Maul didn't manage to KO Obi-Wan. And sure, he had extra concetration. It's still a full year before RotS, where Obi-Wan would perform on an even greater level than on Florrum.

Tyranus pushed Obi-Wan back with "a whipcrack of power", never utterly dominated him with that amount of power

Not the point I'm trying to make. It takes a negligent flick of a wrist to take out Kenobi for a noticeable time period by Dooku, yet a Force Wave from Maul does little damage. That's my point.

It never seems to take a slight of hand from Maul to overpower Kenobi; quite conversely he seems to need to give it everything he's got.

and because the junior novel leaves open the idea that Obi-Wan could've countered Dooku's choke now is an advantage for him?

Yes, very much so. If someone inferably more powerful than Maul can potentially have his Force Choke stopped by Obi-Wan, then the possibility he can resist Maul's choke is even higher. Assuming Maul can even choke him to begin with in live combat.

To my knowledge Dooku still dominates Kenobi in the movie either way

Never said he couldn't, just the fact that the possibility that Kenobi can break free, where Asajj or Quinlan Vos cannot is incredibly impressive.

and well Mutafar Anakin was obviously hindered since he's only stalemating him despite that he was already more powerful than Obi-Wan in the Clone Wars.

Sure. Mustafar Anakin is still logically more powerful than early-TCW Anakin, who's shielding respectable portion of a village from a Theta Storms(a single lightning bolt of which melts people's bones) while fatigued, exhausted and going days with no sleep; or the dreadnaught manipulating Anakin, or the tank pushing Anakin, etc.

Deflecting attacks on that level puts him in Maul's ballpark.

@wollfmyth209@shootingnova: Pretty busy right now, I'll try to answer but I can't promise anything.

@darthduelist9:

We've seen Obi-Wan three times run up to Maul, lightsaber raised and combat ready, to only get knocked back by his power

We've seen this happen when maul's been amped or when Kenobi had just survived a crash and he couldn't even walk straight. If Maul can really just ragdoll (pre prime) kenobi when he wants, why is it that he doesn't do this on florrum right off the bat, or when he sees kenobi in sod? If maul is abovetcw kenobi to the point he can ragdoll himi, then why is it that Kenobi, even as of tcw, has been able to simultaneously break both maul and oppress's barrier?

More importantly though, this is pre prime kenobi, not rots kenobi who has went from being blasted by ventress to being able to deflect mustafar anakin's force blasts and stalemate post tcw anakin telekentically.

yes on Florrum Obi-Wan even possessed an extra amount of concentration because of Gallia's death

Kenobi focused himself, he can do that at will, Maul on the other cannot draw on the desperation to save his brother here.

Anakin was obviously hindered since he's only stalemating him

So? Anakin also "vastly improved" from tcw by the start of rots, and grew even more powerful after turning to the darkside, and kenobi himself hadn't fully unhindered himself yet. Anakin as a padawan was capable of manipulating dreadnaughts, and stopping dooku's retreat with a force wall.

But dismiss that if you want, there's still this one:

This is kenobi 5 months from his rots prime stalemating post tcw anakin unhindered. Considering that tcw anakin has ragdolled folks like ventress and outclasses padawan anakin who could manipulate dreadnaughts, run right through attacks from ventress, stop dooku with a force wall, I see no reason why maul would be able to do any better(or as well for that matter) let alone ragdoll kenobi even as of this point, 5 months from his prime. Kenobi then has 5 months to grow in power. Maul being able to break kenobi's force barrier at all at this point is dubious considering that more powerful force attacks have failed to do this.

On the other hand, we know Kenobi can break prime maul+oppress's barrier barrier even as of tcw:

Obi-Wan realized it was Hondo.

He drew on the Force, shoving Maul and Savage aside. Adi's lightsaber leapt into his hand as he ran for the outpost, then retreated with Hondo and his men into the safety of their lair.

- Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy,

8 or 9

The guy who accuses others of having tunnel vision, lmao. We'll conveniently ignore that Maul was missing a limb, running, carrying his brother and being shot at.

And of course we'll ignore the two occasions where Kenobi has demonstrated that he is powerless to resist Maul's Force choke (despite it being noted that one can break out of a choke with enough power, even when caught off-guard; see Luke-Caedus and Starkiller-Vader). Even when on one of those occasions Kenobi was running at Maul, lightsaber ignited, and was still choked into incapacitation while Maul mused over how he'd like to kill Obi-Wan slowly instead of ending him right there.

Not sure how he deals with Thanaton's lightning and Sorcery.

It's pretty hard to charge up lightning and sorcery when you're being pummelled with TK.

@i_like_swords: True. Although the reverse could be said with an equal amount fo truth to it: It's pretty hard to focus on Telekinesis when you're being tormented by lightning and basically insta-killed by Sorcery.

@azronger: TK is quicker. I would make the argument Maul is faster than Thanaton, a better fighter and more powerful. Lightning can be dodged in single bolts. I just don't see Maul letting up long enough to let Thanaton charge anything up. Just needs to go for the jugular.

@death-killer: stops dead at Thanaton. Also Thanaton is higher than Malak and Satele easy in force.

He has instant death Sith spells that he used on the Inquisitor.

@i_like_swords: Thanaton TK is really good. Moving tons and tons of wreckage in a planet orbit and lifting tons of wreckage for a period of time with another Jedi.

He also makes TK/Lightning Barriers that the ghost powered up Darth Nox could not put a dent in.

His Force Lightning is so strong to TK debris and shit in a maelstrom of energy.

His Lightning is so powerful to even allow Thanaton limited flight?!

Thanaton also has Sith spell that auto kills you with a few words. Thanaton was a very prominent Sith Sorceror before his death.

Before his death, he showed to understand and use a powerful Sith Spell that killed his foe Darth Nox and her partner who was somewhat Force resistant being, when they came to kill him. Only being revived to life by the Force Spirits Nox had at the time.

Maul gets rekt at Thanaton.

Stops at 6.

@i_like_swords: Hm, fair enough.

@i_like_swords:

Wasn't it Savage who was missing a limb, not Maul? Just a nitpick.

Stops at 6 IMO.

Thanaton actually destroys him. Also thanaton is higher on the list below traya.

Damn right!

@wollfmyth209:

These three times being? On Florrum, an enraged Force Wave from Maul didn't manage to KO Obi-Wan. And sure, he had extra concetration. It's still a full year before RotS, where Obi-Wan would perform on an even greater level than on Florrum.

Once in Sith Hunter and twice on Florrum. So what it didn't manage to knock him out? He was still struggling to stand and was incapacitated for a reasonable duration of time while his extra concentration was definitely a major amplification, it managed to make the gap between being outmatched and able to contend with both brothers at once very small so that Maul was able to TK this Kenobi only reinforces that he could do it to a inferior version especially since Maul would at least grow at an equal rate as Kenobi as he's also participating in the CW until Order 66.

Not the point I'm trying to make. It takes a negligent flick of a wrist to take out Kenobi for a noticeable time period by Dooku, yet a Force Wave from Maul does little damage. That's my point.
It never seems to take a slight of hand from Maul to overpower Kenobi; quite conversely he seems to need to give it everything he's got.

Kenobi was still struggling to stand after Maul threw him back so I see no difference between both occassions and he also collapsed the cave in the process so it's logical Maul put more power behind it then the Count.

es, very much so. If someone inferably more powerful than Maul can potentially have his Force Choke stopped by Obi-Wan, then the possibility he can resist Maul's choke is even higher. Assuming Maul can even choke him to begin with in live combat.

The novel leaves open the idea that Obi-Wan could've raised a counter-attack, not that he could resist the Count's choke, that's what you make of it and even then he could've broken out of it if he had enough power.

Never said he couldn't, just the fact that the possibility that Kenobi can break free, where Asajj or Quinlan Vos cannot is incredibly impressive.

There's the possibility that he could've raised a counter-attack, not that he could've broken free, that's (again) what you make of it.

Sure. Mustafar Anakin is still logically more powerful than early-TCW Anakin, who's shielding respectable portion of a village from a Theta Storms(a single lightning bolt of which melts people's bones) while fatigued, exhausted and going days with no sleep; or the dreadnaught manipulating Anakin, or the tank pushing Anakin, etc.

Deflecting attacks on that level puts him in Maul's ballpark.

You have any evidence for that despite your personal opinion?

Why would it? If Maul a year before RotS was superior to Obi-Wan, he would also be superior to him a year later since he's been fighting in TCW to and has probably an even greater growing rate than Kenobi.