Darth Maul replaces Count Dooku on Geonosis

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deactivated-61215780523f9

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Scenario 1: Geonosis

  • Darth Maul is in the same area Dooku fought Anikan, Obi wan and Yoda.
  • Maul is at his peak.
  • He'll fight AOTC Anikan and Obi wan with Yoda showing up 2 minutes or so later.
  • The characters will fight him with the same level of seriousness as they did with Dooku.

Scenario 2: Aboard the flagship in Revenge of the Sith.

Since I'd rather not make another thread, lets tackle this one too.

  • Same idea, but Maul is fighting only ROTS Anikan and Obi wan with the intent on killing them both.
  • Maul is at the peak of his power.

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Void_Reborn

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#3  Edited By Void_Reborn

Scenario 1

TPM Maul narrowly wins against the Jedi duo and gets stomped by Yoda

Obi-Wan would make this difficult for him because of prior knowledge having faced Maul. Anakin as a padawan also made a training copy simulator of Maul and some of his fighting techniques. He would be a familiar opponent but still too skilled in my opinion. Maul vs Yoda doesn't really need explaining.

Scenario 2

Maul gets absolutely mopped. This is a pure stomp for the Jedi. Either could solo.

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subline

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Wins in a good fight, and then gets wrecked by Yoda.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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He'll fight AOTC Anikan and Obi wan with Yoda showing up 2 minutes or so later.

The characters will fight him with the same level of seriousness as they did with Dooku.

Maul thrashes Anakin & Obi-Wan, but gets stomped by Yoda.

Same idea, but Maul is fighting only ROTS Anikan and Obi wan with the intent on killing them both.

Duo easily wins. While Maul is more than a match for either on an individual basis, it's not by much -- combined, he doesn't stand a chance.

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Greysentinel365

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#6  Edited By Greysentinel365

Kenobi might beat Maul honestly. It would be incredibly close and drawn out though.

FoB!Anakin and Yoda utterly destroy him.

Anakin or Kenobi effortlessly solo in their RotS incarnations.

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King-Ragnar

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He'd beat Anakin as of AoTC, you could make an argument for Obi Wan winning but it's far fetched. Yoda mops the floor with him. As of RoTS, either Anakin or Obi Wan trounce him hilariously.

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alextheboss

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Scenario 1: Maul would defeat the team, but they honestly can probably hold out long enough for Yoda to show up unless Anakin does something stupid. Maul either tries to run like Dooku or dies.

Scenario 2: Maul gets low diffed.

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Mrsportsguy13

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Beats the duo in round 1, then proceeds to get lolstomped by Yoda

Puts up a decent fight in round 2, but ultimately loses.

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alextheboss

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@greysentinel365: @king-ragnar: You can only make an argument for AOTC Obi-wan beating TPM Maul, and as king said, it's far fetched. The OP says prime Maul though, so Obi-wan would need a miracle to win at this point in time. Or Dave Filoni PIS.

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deactivated-6034d0d6dcbf4

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1: Maul would beat AOTC Anakin and Kenobi, but probably not before Yoda arrives. Anyway, as soon as Yoda turns up he’s doomed.

2: Maul gets stomped hard.

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G_Race

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#12  Edited By G_Race

Scenario one Anakin loses more than an arm, he gets killed. Maul is just vicious like that. The Count tends to show a level of ‘honour’ while in a duel scenario, he is just bourgeois like that which resulted in Anakin ‘only’ losing an arm.

Kenobi goes on to kill Maul in a hotly contested duel considering his growth from the Phantom menace. Kenobi would have to work for it, and it could still go in favor of Maul, but the majority goes to Obi Wan. Regardless, he would draw it out long enough for Yoda to arrive and crush Maul.

Scenario 2: The combined might of the Jedi are simply too much. Anakin/Kenobi have the kind of synergy and battle acumen to secure the win nearly every time. Honestly at this point either Jedi could very nearly stomp-particularly Anakin.

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Redshift_Bacon

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Round 1, Maul might be able to win given Anakins tactical ineptitude, but I think either of the duo could give TPM Maul a good fight on their own so they should win barring that.

Round 2 the duo absolutely stomps in a mismatch. Anakin alone stomps by virtue of being superior in every relevant category, and adding Obi Wan who should match if not exceed Maul by ROTS is just cruel.

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Necromancer76

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Maul would not be able to defeat the duo before Yoda arrives and then he dies instantly.

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Windshieldwiper

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@subline said:

Wins in a good fight, and then gets wrecked by Yoda.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@greysentinel365: @king-ragnar: You can only make an argument for AOTC Obi-wan beating TPM Maul, and as king said, it's far fetched. The OP says prime Maul though, so Obi-wan would need a miracle to win at this point in time. Or Dave Filoni PIS.

You underestimate how lowballed Maul can be.

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@alextheboss said:

@greysentinel365: @king-ragnar: You can only make an argument for AOTC Obi-wan beating TPM Maul, and as king said, it's far fetched. The OP says prime Maul though, so Obi-wan would need a miracle to win at this point in time. Or Dave Filoni PIS.

You underestimate how lowballed Maul can be.

Do tell, I'm curious. lol

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CT-5555

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R1: Darth Maul can beat Obi-Wan and Anakin, but unless Anakin acts rashly like he did against Dooku, they could probably hold their own until Yoda arrives and stomps Maul.

R2: Either can solo. Together, they beat Maul decisively.

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thebluedragon20

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#19  Edited By thebluedragon20

R1: maul beats the two jedi, and gets stomped by Yoda

R2: the team destroys him.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@kirkseven:

Tbh I was simply anticipating their answer.

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Void_Reborn

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#21  Edited By Void_Reborn

@lord_tenebrous said:

@kirkseven:

Tbh I was simply anticipating their answer.

The Maul lowball honestly comes from Qui Gon lowball.

Also because he's such an Fing jobber.

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Void_Reborn

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@ct-5555 said:

R1: Darth Maul can beat Obi-Wan and Anakin, but unless Anakin acts rashly like he did against Dooku, they could probably hold their own until Yoda arrives and stomps Maul.

R2: Either can solo. Together, they beat Maul decisively.

Anakin will act rashly. It's part of his character. Especially AOTC unrefined, inexperienced Anakin. It won't be as rash as against Dooku because he had great distaste for the Count due to what he did to the Jedi on Geonosis. Maul is just an assassin to them and Obi-Wan would really dislike him because he killed Jinn. Regardless, it still will be enough where I can see TPM Maul taking a decent majority.

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clAssymErc

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He'll fight AOTC Anikan and Obi wan with Yoda showing up 2 minutes or so later.

The characters will fight him with the same level of seriousness as they did with Dooku.

Maul thrashes Anakin & Obi-Wan, but gets stomped by Yoda.

Same idea, but Maul is fighting only ROTS Anikan and Obi wan with the intent on killing them both.

Duo easily wins. While Maul is more than a match for either on an individual basis, it's not by much -- combined, he doesn't stand a chance.

This.

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InvadedTBD

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Maul would not be able to defeat the duo before Yoda arrives and then he dies instantly.

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CT-5555

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@void_reborn:

Anakin will act rashly. It's part of his character. Especially AOTC unrefined, inexperienced Anakin.

Perhaps I should've specified more clearly. Anakin will make rash decisions, but I don't think he's going to recklessly charge in like he did with Dooku since there's nothing motivating him to do something like that here.

It won't be as rash as against Dooku because he had great distaste for the Count due to what he did to the Jedi on Geonosis.

Precisely.

Maul is just an assassin to them and Obi-Wan would really dislike him because he killed Jinn.

Which will make the fight harder for Maul.

Regardless, it still will be enough where I can see TPM Maul taking a decent majority.

I agree, but unless he's able to separate the duo for an extended period of time, he probably won't be able to defeat both of them before Yoda arrives.

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Void_Reborn

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deactivated-612156a4d7eca

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He'd possibly be good enough to beat both of them, maybe.

If Maul tries to engage Yoda, he'd probably die within 15 seconds.

Round 2 would result in Maul losing too.

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Redshift_Bacon

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Scenario One: Maul likely doesnt dispatch Anakin immediately, and is then forced to fight the duo, where he could lose or win. Either way, Yoda dominates and defeats him before he can escape.

Scenario Two: Anakin or Obi Wan solo TPM Maul mid diff. If we are using peak Maul, i.e, Enraged TCW Maul, then he stands a good chance, up until he kills Kenobi and causes Anakin to become enraged.

Enraged Anakin > Enraged Maul > Anakin > Maul. I dont think fighting experience or style differences play any part in a battle between this duo.

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deactivated-605ba917d46cf

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Scenario 1: Maul obliterates Anakin, and beats Kenobi after a while, no Pis so save Obi wan this time. Yoda then comes and stomps Maul.

Scenario 2: They stomp him both them could give Maul trouble by themselves together they stomp him.

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Greysentinel365

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Kenobi might beat Maul honestly. It would be incredibly close and drawn out though.

FoB!Anakin and Yoda utterly destroy him.

Anakin or Kenobi effortlessly solo in their RotS incarnations.

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DirtyLuna

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#31  Edited By DirtyLuna

@lord_tenebrous said:

He'll fight AOTC Anikan and Obi wan with Yoda showing up 2 minutes or so later.

The characters will fight him with the same level of seriousness as they did with Dooku.

Maul thrashes Anakin & Obi-Wan, but gets stomped by Yoda.

Same idea, but Maul is fighting only ROTS Anikan and Obi wan with the intent on killing them both.

Duo easily wins. While Maul is more than a match for either on an individual basis, it's not by much -- combined, he doesn't stand a chance.

Agreed.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#32  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

I stand by the above. When Savage Opress was being handled as a stand-in for Episode I Maul(during season 3 of TCW), he was going head-to-head with the combined force of late-CW Obi-Wan & Anakin. Here we have prime (TPM) Maul against a somewhat weaker duo, there's no question. Maul overmatches them every time.

Against the ROTS duo, however, he loses badly. While prime (TPM) Maul is slightly superior to either Jedi on an individual basis, he can't come close to facing off against both simultaneously. They thrash.

As for CW or Rebels Maul, against the AOTC duo, he would be hardpressed to overcome either fighter on an individual basis. Obi-Wan has a solid chance of soloing. Either Anakin or Obi-Wan during Episode III would easily defeat him.

Any version of Maul loses very quickly to Yoda.

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HitTheAssasin

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#33  Edited By HitTheAssasin

In round 1 Maul will probably still be fighting the duo once Yoda arrives at which point he either flees or gets decimated. In round 2 Maul probably dies in seconds once the two get serious-not only do they have great teamwork, Obi-Wan individually is at least around Maul's level and Anakin is blatantly above him.

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Round 1: Maul should win easily, but he's a huge jobber. I'm going to give this to Maul anyways.

Round 2: What in the world makes you think this was a good idea?! Either of the Jedi beats him with one hand tied behind their back. Maul gets cut to ribbons.

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Hey_Thatsmildlyadequate

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Maul could win round 1 but Yoda would show up quickly enough to finish them off

He gets flattened round 2

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donloota

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bump.

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w4nkdestroyer2

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Generally the same as what happened with Dooku since ROTS Dooku and TPM Maul are confirmed equals by Lucas.

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Uhu123

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@w4nkdestroyer2: This is peak Maul, does this change your mind?

OT: Same outcome, trashes AotC Duo, gets trashed by Yoda, takes out Obi-Wan and gets murdered by Zonakin, tho he probably puts up a better fight than Dooku.

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@uhu123 said:

@w4nkdestroyer2: This is peak Maul, does this change your mind?

OT: Same outcome, trashes AotC Duo, gets trashed by Yoda, takes out Obi-Wan and gets murdered by Zonakin, tho he probably puts up a better fight than Dooku.

Maul clears then.

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Uhu123

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Gets beaten by the duo then ragdolled by Yoda.

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hellothere5432

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@laurus: How does Maul lose to the duo and how does Maul get rag dolled by Yoda when even Sidious, Yoda's superior couldn't

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hellothere5432

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#43  Edited By hellothere5432

@uhu123:

Even against Yoda?

Yes. Yoda and Dooku were equals in AOTC per Lucas. ROTS Dooku and TPM Maul are equals per Lucas. Since ROTS Dooku~TPM Maul, and SoD Maul>TPM Maul, SoD Maul would beat AOTC Yoda.

AOTC Yoda is also far inferior to his ROTS counterpart seeing as how in AOTC he was equal to Dooku however in Dark Rendezvous which took place near the end of the war, Yoda thrashed Dooku despite the latter also growing in power throughout the war.

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GodlyShinigami

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Scenario 1: Maul obliterates Anakin and beats Kenobi and either retreats or gets beaten by Yoda

Scenario 2: Anakin Solos

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GodlyShinigami

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@uhu123:

Even against Yoda?

Yes. Yoda and Dooku were equals in AOTC per Lucas. ROTS Dooku and TPM Maul are equals per Lucas. Since ROTS Dooku~TPM Maul, and SoD Maul>TPM Maul, SoD Maul would beat AOTC Yoda.

AOTC Yoda is also far inferior to his ROTS counterpart seeing as how in AOTC he was equal to Dooku however in Dark Rendezvous which took place near the end of the war, Yoda thrashed Dooku despite the latter also growing in power throughout the war.

Yoda was holding Back in AOTC. Dooku wasn't his equal. TPM Maul doesn't beat Yoda , as a Maul fan I'll be nice and say he could hold him off long enough to cause a distraction and retreat , barring that Yoda wins.

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Laurus

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@laurus: How does Maul lose to the duo and how does Maul get rag dolled by Yoda when even Sidious, Yoda's superior couldn't

I think you'll find Sidious ragdolled both Savage and Maul when he fought them, and he wasn't even trying.

Maul is Kenobi's equal in TCW in my opinion, throwing Anakin in there makes it a clear win for the duo.

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Laurus

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@hellothere5432 said:

@uhu123:

Even against Yoda?

Yes. Yoda and Dooku were equals in AOTC per Lucas. ROTS Dooku and TPM Maul are equals per Lucas. Since ROTS Dooku~TPM Maul, and SoD Maul>TPM Maul, SoD Maul would beat AOTC Yoda.

AOTC Yoda is also far inferior to his ROTS counterpart seeing as how in AOTC he was equal to Dooku however in Dark Rendezvous which took place near the end of the war, Yoda thrashed Dooku despite the latter also growing in power throughout the war.

Yoda was holding Back in AOTC. Dooku wasn't his equal. TPM Maul doesn't beat Yoda , as a Maul fan I'll be nice and say he could hold him off long enough to cause a distraction and retreat , barring that Yoda wins.

Yoda wasn't holding back, he knew how much it meant to capture/kill Dooku and was fully dedicated to doing so as it would most likely mean an end to the war.

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hellothere5432

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@laurus:

I think you'll find Sidious ragdolled both Savage and Maul when he fought them, and he wasn't even trying.

Because they were caught off guard, Sidious can't rag doll Maul when he is on guard per the novel:

"Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap."

Source: Darth Maul - Shadow Conspiracy

Sidious needed to catch Maul off guard in order to rag doll him.Every time he is hit with the force, he is caught off guard or has had his defences breached. When Sidious rag dolls the brothers at first, both are caught off guard, Shadow Conspiracy notes how Sidious needed an opening in order to rag doll Maul midway through the fight and lastly Sidious is only able to rag doll Maul because he had already been defeated at that moment. He was panting and visibly exhausted as a result of his rage amp running his stamina into the ground which greatly weakened his force defences. Now the fact that Sidious was always willing to rag doll Maul and the fact that Maul was noted to be off guard proves that he couldn't just one-shot Maul as he was waiting for an opening despite wanting to rag doll Maul.

And Sidious was trying:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/hellothere5432/blog/fight-misconceptions-maul-and-savage-vs-sidious-ho/158034/

Maul is Kenobi's equal in TCW in my opinion, throwing Anakin in there makes it a clear win for the duo.

Maul is not Obi Wan's equal, he is far superior. Circumstances against Maul made their fights more evenly matched and even then Maul was winning. Equals can't rag doll each other.

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Laurus

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@laurus:

I think you'll find Sidious ragdolled both Savage and Maul when he fought them, and he wasn't even trying.

Because they were caught off guard, Sidious can't rag doll Maul when he is on guard per the novel:

"Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap."

Source: Darth Maul - Shadow Conspiracy

Sidious needed to catch Maul off guard in order to rag doll him.Every time he is hit with the force, he is caught off guard or has had his defences breached. When Sidious rag dolls the brothers at first, both are caught off guard, Shadow Conspiracy notes how Sidious needed an opening in order to rag doll Maul midway through the fight and lastly Sidious is only able to rag doll Maul because he had already been defeated at that moment. He was panting and visibly exhausted as a result of his rage amp running his stamina into the ground which greatly weakened his force defences. Now the fact that Sidious was always willing to rag doll Maul and the fact that Maul was noted to be off guard proves that he couldn't just one-shot Maul as he was waiting for an opening despite wanting to rag doll Maul.

And Sidious was trying:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/hellothere5432/blog/fight-misconceptions-maul-and-savage-vs-sidious-ho/158034/

Maul is Kenobi's equal in TCW in my opinion, throwing Anakin in there makes it a clear win for the duo.

Maul is not Obi Wan's equal, he is far superior. Circumstances against Maul made their fights more evenly matched and even then Maul was winning. Equals can't rag doll each other.

Fine, I concede that Yoda wouldn't ragdoll him but he'd far outskill him and stomp him either way.

I never said that equals could ragdoll each other, Maul is certainly not Yoda's equal.

Maul and Kenobi are about equal, all of their fights ended in stalemates, the only time's he had to retreat are when it was a 2v1 with Maul and Savage and when he was blinded by rage when he was fighting alongside Ventress iirc.

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hellothere5432

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@godlyshinigami:

Yoda was holding Back in AOTC. Dooku wasn't his equal. TPM Maul doesn't beat Yoda , as a Maul fan I'll be nice and say he could hold him off long enough to cause a distraction and retreat , barring that Yoda wins.

Dooku and Yoda were equals in AOTC:

"I started out doing it fairly conservatively where he just came and fought, that really didn't work. And it was actually uh... much of the people sort of in editorial were saying 'y'know we gotta make more out of this, you gotta use Jedi powers, you gotta, you can't just go right into the swordfight.' So, I decided to go back to the Empire Strikes Back of throwing things at each other even though I knew they were equals of each other, so it was a hopeless gesture, they would have figured that out in two seconds. For the audience it actually, it's nice for them to go through this process of everyone throwing everything around."

~ George Lucas, Attack of the Clones Archival Directorial Commentary

And ROTS Dooku and TPM Maul are equals:

"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor, he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.

Source: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-lucas-and-the-cult-of-darth-vader-20050602

Lucas goes from directly comparing Anakin to Sidious (saying Dark-side Anakin=Sidious) to saying Suited Vader was like Maul or Dooku. If we apply the basis of the first comparison between Dark-side Anakin and Sidious, we get the idea that Vader Maul and Dooku are peers the same way Anakin and Sidious are. If you try to interpret it as Lucas saying that Dark-side Anakin was like Maul and Dooku as in he could never surpass Sidious since he lost his potential, Lucas himself stated that Sidious should have never lost Maul, and in legends Maul was confirmed to have meant to surpassed Sidious.

George Lucas: ''After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done --well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways-- he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained.''

Source: AOTC DVD Commentary

''The man who had taken the young Maul from a backwater planet and raised him to be his successor. He owed Darth Sidious everything.''

Source: Darth Maul - Shadow Hunter (2001)

''For all Darth Sidious’s talk of his role as his apprentice and eventual successor, Maul still felt precious little connection to the Sith grand plan for the galaxy and his place within it.

Source: Maul - Lockdown (2013)

And we know SoD Maul >> TPM Maul:

As of The Sith Hunters Maul was equal to his TPM self:

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Then in TCW S5 Savage is astounded at how much Maul had grown in power:

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And I shall complete your training, not as your brother, but as your master.

Source: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 1 Revival

''Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious.''

Source: Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

Therefore:

SoD>>TPM Maul~ROTS Dooku>AOTC Dooku~AOTC Yoda.