Darth Malgus vs Jaina Solo

• Deceived Malgus vs Prime Jaina
• Fight takes place in an empty senate chamber
• Who comes out alive?

Bart decimates both of them in a slaughter and then runs away.

Wrong thread. Jaina, probably - she's significantly more skillful with the blade, pretty powerful on her own right, capable to resist damage that Malgus would inflict upon her... even if direct Force attacks from Malgus would be an option, and I somewhat doubt that, as there would be little space for them to risk opening with redirecting their focus to direct Force offense.

@jkbart: I wonder if you could put Inquisitor Bart in battle threads..

Personally I think Malgus takes a slight majority.

@i_like_swords: It depends pretty much solely on the take on Force usage within combat. It's more difficult problem than just measuring the gap between skills, physicals, Force, and just comparing them. Malgus is more powerful than Jaina, and the gap there might be larger than between their lightsaber skill, but thing is, Jaina can pressure him enough within lightsaber combat to prevent someone like Malgus from utilizing the Force directly. It's not that telekinetic attacks or Lightning barrages are summoned instantly - Malgus isn't a masterful multitasker such as Dooku, nor does he have such deep mastery over the Force like, for instance, Traya. He needs the smallest focus to actually strike someone like Jaina purely with the Force, but that requires his focus to go outside the dueling department, unless given a space via some positioning, lucky separation of combatants etc... like with almost everyone's case. Of course it's a minor moment, but remember how inhumanely fast lightsaber duelists of their caliber are and how intense are lightsaber duels, if you include Force Sensitive's speed (of course when talking about guys of Malgus/Jaina's level). Can Malgus afford something like that being pressed in a lightsaber duel by a superior swordmaster? I doubt that. Of course, as I said, they can separate somehow, but Malgus isn't that powerful to instantly overpower Jaina with Choke, or stunning her with Lightning. That's why Jaina's skill is far more important, as it actually usually is - you rarely see duels decided by the Force, don't you? And generally ability to keep the pressure on your opponent and disallow him from gaining time for some other options is an inherent part of your fighting skill.

There are some exceptional cases, but it's because the nature of different techniques, or someone being a skilled multitasker (Dooku), or having so great command over the Force to summon it instantly (Sidious), etc... In other cases it's usually someone just:

• catching an opponent off-guard, which is actually more related to their skill and balance within combat;
• using the Force on someone already defeated (Kyle on Tavion, heck, even Desann on mercenary-Kyle);
• just shoving someone with variable power, but without any great impact on the fight;
• using the Force as freely because of inherent speed advantage allowing for this momentary "break";
• lightsaber styles influencing the combat (Obi-Wan holding little pressure on his opponents with Soresu, Luke and Caedus kicking each other around, Maul dancing throughout Theed Generator).

Malgus is extremely aggressive warrior who suits Djem So incredibly, and Jaina is an unorthodox, aggressive fighter, so there's little to believe their fighting styles would make more place for direct Force attacks. Quite the opposite - they would pressure each other very hard.

Well, at least those are my views on the Force. It's influence in combats is somewhat too simplified I think, or just overestimated.

@jkbart: I think Malgus is more crafty and tactical as an overall combatant than he is always given credit for, which is part of why I would side with him overall. Jaina is the more skilled fighter in a raw sense, however, I believe both Malgus's physicals and his tactical, deceptive approach to combat would allow him to edge her out.

On the issue of physicals, Malgus is just well suited to fighting Jaina. He's stronger than her noticeably, enough to wear her down over the course of a long brutal fight, whereas Malgus can not only withstand insane amounts of damage, but he can also continue operating at close to peak levels even after withstanding terrible injuries. With Jaina being a very direct, martial-based fighter, she would end up slugging with Malgus as she has done with others such as Caedus, which is a good combative pace for Malgus.

In terms of Malgus's tactics which I was talking about, he seems like the type of fighter who always has strategies in place, whether they be well prior to a fight, or just on-the-fly. A notable example being against Ven Zallow. Utilising saber throw in order to leave Zallow exposed, and following up with a telekinetic blast, was a good move on his part. After this, Zallow strikes Malgus, and Malgus lets him believe that he's made enough ground to go for a killing blow, when really, Malgus was letting Zallow open himself up for a brutal counter-thrust which ended the fight very quickly. Even against Satele Shan 14 years prior, he showed the same kind of tactical awareness, Force pushing her against a tree, and then timing her subsequent leap over him in order to cut her saberstaff. Both Zallow and Satele are incredibly aggressive fighters who like to employ physical strikes into combat often, yet Malgus managed to find ways of taking them out without resorting to simply bullrushing through them. With this in mind, in conjunction with his ability to beat Jaina out in terms of unarmed confrontations, I can see him levelling the playing field in a duel. I also think I rate Malgus' raw skill a little higher than most. I would say the gap between him and Jaina is akin to the gap between Plo Koon/Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi in their respective primes. Not sure if you agree.

As for Force powers, while it is true that due to an aggressive overlap of lightsaber styles being very present here, Malgus will find it more difficult to press his power advantage, I wouldn't say it's impossible that he could end up pulling a win this way, either. A solid kick to create distance for instance would be enough to incorporate telekinesis or lightning into the mix, and Malgus is also fairly adept in using the environment to his advantage in the form of projectiles. Jaina also shares the latter trait, which would make a telekinetic fight between the two interesting. There's also the point about tactics I mentioned before - Malgus seems to be able to find a way to weasel through an opponents defence in the heat of an aggressive confrontation, although admittedly his main way of winning fights tends to be through his blade. I think it's also worth pointing out that Malgus has the ability to channel telekinetic blasts in all directions at once, which saves the need for gesture or precision, which is a good way of creating distance and pummelling the opposition. Jaina can take his lightning on her blade, although being struck by it is another matter entirely due to the fact Malgus has killed Force sensitives with it repeatedly in the past.

There's also the possibility for Maelstrom which would more than likely overwhelm Jaina at the brink of a brutal fight, due to Malgus just being more powerful than her. She would need to close the gap quickly there, or retreat.

I do see your point about Force abilities being simplified when applied to battles, though. It takes a truly skilled Force user to make proper use of a power advantage.

Jaina Solo.

@jkbart: When I said Malgus would wear her down, I didn't mean in terms of stamina. I was more eluding to him actually injuring her throughout the course of the fight during their unarmed exchanges. Being able to kill Jedi/incapacitate Jedi through his sheer physicality, kick Jedi upwards of ten meters through the air even while severely injured, landing with enough force to shatter stone, and being strong enough to crack a marble table with one strike, are showings that suggest to me that when he does land on her, Jaina will be keeping those strikes with her for the rest of the fight.

Jaina is very fast, although whether or not her speed matters much to Malgus is what I would question. Being able to speedblitz Sith is something Malgus's opponents (Satele and Zallow) are capable of doing, and he found ways around that attribute when landing strikes on them. Malgus also has some great speed feats, such as being described as a blizzard after severe injuries, and his blows being described as "glittering arcs", again, after severe injuries. And those feats were also performed 14 years prior to Deceived. And again, the fact Jaina is such a physical fighter means that Malgus has greater opportunities of landing more powerful strikes.

I'm not sure if I'm fully getting your meaning regarding Jaina's Force defences. She's obviously very strong with the Force in a raw sense due to her lineage, however, her shields and capacity to bolster her own power against someone like Malgus can only go as far as her known capabilities allow her to, as far as I can tell, just like any other character.

So yeah, a fight between these two, in my mind, plays out in such a way that Malgus just outlasts her. From skill standpoint, I believe both are skilled enough to take their respective skillsets and make an insane fight out of it. However, Malgus will overall be taking less damage, doing more damage when he lands, and has more reserves at the end of the day (to say nothing of his ridiculous Force augmentation via anger) to keep going, as well as an incredible suit of armor, while Jaina is just less physically capable on the whole, and has no external protection. You made good points about her general ability to rejuvenate herself and continue fighting, however, I think this example alone shows that Malgus is her superior in this area, for sure. Enough to sway the fight in his favour. Because, after a prolonged fight, Jaina's skill edge should be mitigated by the fact Malgus can have:

• A concussion grenade blown up in his face
• A cliff-face dropped on him after being blasted and embedded into stone (which led to damaged lungs, and lacerations and contusions all over his body)
• A mound of rubble from two buildings dropped on him, which required him to lift and then blast away that rubble with telekinesis before it landed on him

...and still fight with enough physical ability to dominate a Jedi, kick him through a building, and perform other Force-based assaults which led to the death of that Jedi and his friend. This was also 14 years prior to Deceived, which means Malgus obviously had time for a lot of improvement in regards to his Force abilities.

The sword of the jedi kills him

Jaina just about every time. Malgus's durability is tremendous, but if he gets hit in the major zones he's not going to survive. Rage is more or less his only option, and it's his only real chance. Jaina is actually potentially more powerful than Deceived Malgus in terms of sheer innate power, but Malgus has far more destructive potential due to his more violent usages of the Force, which generally make his feats seem extremely impressive. Still, Jaina being able to telekinetically break Caedus's Force Choke and hurl Kyp Durron with Lightning is proof of her own innate power. She has a couple of other feats like hurling Shadow Bombs and sending large portions of collapsed wall flying, casually lifting and hurling huge chunks of stone while deflecting fire, and telekinetically suspending huge chunks of stone in mid-air whilst she herself was cartwheeling to recover from something else. She's also erased memories from her fellow Jedi, decades before her prime, and sent telepathic images with such imbued power that it seemed almost realistic and on the edge of sensory perception.

In addition to being considerably more skilled, she has the edges of unorthodoxy and Shatterpoint as well, which will at least serve to aid her. She's also quite durable, which means that even if Malgus hit her with the Force she would tank several attacks. And just to add insult to injury, she's just faster. Malgus does have a strength edge, but it's not going to be more important than Jaina's speed edge. Again, power is an edge, but given the fighting styles of the two and the likely intense duel between them, I doubt there would be much room for power except the occasional shove, which won't be of harm to either of the combatants.

It's not an easy fight, as all fights will be hard-fought, but Jaina should be the general victor.

The sword of the Jedi takes this. She's a tier or more above Malgus in skill, and she should be at least nearing him in power.

@shootingnova: Time to disagree.

Malgus's durability is tremendous, but if he gets hit in the major zones he's not going to survive.

The same could be said of Jaina. The difference is Malgus is enduring pretty much anything that isn't lethal, which is a considerable edge. Jaina's usual tactics like using telekinetic projectiles and martial arts won't be nearly as useful here.

Still, Jaina being able to telekinetically break Caedus's Force Choke

This doesn't make her more powerful than Malgus, or even as powerful as him. Caedus was choking someone else, and Jaina required every inch of her strength just to break his grip.

and hurl Kyp Durron with Lightning is proof of her own innate power.

Kyp isn't heavy enough for this to be impressive, unless he had some kind of barrier up that wasn't eluded to in the quote from your thread.

She has a couple of other feats like hurling Shadow Bombs and sending large portions of collapsed wall flying, casually lifting and hurling huge chunks of stone while deflecting fire, and telekinetically suspending huge chunks of stone in mid-air whilst she herself was cartwheeling to recover from something else.

14 years prior to Deceived Malgus replicated all of these showings in terms of quality by blasting the rubble from a stone cliff-face off of himself, and also holding up and blasting large amounts of rubble from two buildings (the latter feat being done while injured). What's even better is that Malgus eluded to being able to easily kill the Jedi who dropped the two burned-out buildings on him in any number of ways, which includes using telekinesis. Again, injured, and 14 years prior to Deceived.

Then there's Malgus's showing of blasting dozens of bystanders in all directions, through windows ect with a Force blast. Said Force blast also blew the doors off of a nearby hospital and lurched his shuttle. This wasn't even a blast that required much effort or was directed anywhere specific - this was just Malgus slamming his fist into his palm out of simple irritation.

In addition to being considerably more skilled

Based on what? Her showings against Caedus are heavily circumstantial in her favour (and even then were incredibly hard-fought fights), and outside of that she has no showings to suggest a substantial skill edge over Malgus. It'd be noticeable, but not as big as people are making out.

she has the edges of unorthodoxy and Shatterpoint as well, which will at least serve to aid her.

Her unorthodoxy really isn't all that useful, nor is her Shatterpoint. Malgus's sheer strength and durability are more useful edges.

She's also quite durable, which means that even if Malgus hit her with the Force she would tank several attacks.

Based on what would she be able to "tank" several Force or physical attacks from Malgus? Malgus kicked Adraas into a stone column hard enough to split it in half like "lightning would a tree", breaking his ribs in the process.

And just to add insult to injury, she's just faster.

Not really. Malgus's speed showings while injured and a decade and a half prior to Deceived, and perceiving dozens of blaster bolts moving in slow motion, as well as having no speed issues with characters who also have equivalent showings to Jaina, is enough to suggest she isn't faster.

Malgus does have a strength edge, but it's not going to be more important than Jaina's speed edge.

I'd like to hear your reasoning for this. Seems pretty unreasonable to me. Strength is going to be far more prevalent between two characters who will inevitably end up brawling with each other here and there, and Malgus actually has demonstrated far greater strength than Jaina, whereas Jaina has failed to do the same regarding speed.

Again, power is an edge, but given the fighting styles of the two and the likely intense duel between them, I doubt there would be much room for power except the occasional shove, which won't be of harm to either of the combatants.

Doubt that. Malgus has found success with his lightning on several occasions - he blew Aryn Leneer's lightsaber defence apart and killed her with it.

@i_like_swords: I don't mind disagreements, because there is discussion to be had, but you do kind of have a lot of other people disagreeing with you in this thread.

The same could be said of Jaina. The difference is Malgus is enduring pretty much anything that isn't lethal, which is a considerable edge. Jaina's usual tactics like using telekinetic projectiles and martial arts won't be nearly as useful here.

Jaina's durability isn't even on par with Malgus's, and she doesn't really rely on them to tank hits for her. She's more of an avoider, but she can take melee/Force-based hits if necessary.

This doesn't make her more powerful than Malgus, or even as powerful as him. Caedus was choking someone else, and Jaina required every inch of her strength just to break his grip.

It doesn't matter if he was Choking somebody else. I never said he was Choking her (doing so would actually hinder her Force power to some degree), and whilst she did use all of her Force strength, breaking the Choke of somebody who is considerably more powerful than Malgus is a notable power feat, even if it doesn't make her on par with him in direct Force power.

Kyp isn't heavy enough for this to be impressive, unless he had some kind of barrier up that wasn't eluded to in the quote from your thread.

Weight isn't the issue here, it's mostly the fact that Jaina's feat constitutes a comparable level of power to Kyp Durron. Who, if I may say so, is considerably more powerful than Malgus.

14 years prior to Deceived Malgus replicated all of these showings in terms of quality by blasting the rubble from a stone cliff-face off of himself, and also holding up and blasting large amounts of rubble from two buildings (the latter feat being done while injured). What's even better is that Malgus eluded to being able to easily kill the Jedi who dropped the two burned-out buildings on him in any number of ways, which includes using telekinesis. Again, injured, and 14 years prior to Deceived.

I'm already aware of all of Malgus's showings. Injured, and evidently drawing on rage that surpassed his injuries in terms of the benefit/hindrance ratio, and his improvements between Alderaan and Coruscant were relatively minor in terms of feats. If we go by powerscaling and implications, it could be more than what feats show us but not by too much.

Then there's Malgus's showing of blasting dozens of bystanders in all directions, through windows ect with a Force blast. Said Force blast also blew the doors off of a nearby hospital and lurched his shuttle. This wasn't even a blast that required much effort or was directed anywhere specific - this was just Malgus slamming his fist into his palm out of simple irritation.

Again, I'm already aware of this. And again, it seems superior mostly by virtue of its destructive content, but in terms of sheer power, it's not really above Jaina.

And "simple irritation" can be a brief burst of empowerment - especially to somebody like Malgus, who is renowned for his habit of being empowered by his rage.

Based on what? Her showings against Caedus are heavily circumstantial in her favour (and even then were incredibly hard-fought fights), and outside of that she has no showings to suggest a substantial skill edge over Malgus. It'd be noticeable, but not as big as people are making out.

Based on her general performances and accolades. Caedus's fights are circumstantial, but we do have to consider the fact that Caedus is also just far and away superior to Malgus as well. Still, it's not the best comparison that can be drawn. She had respectable performances against Slayers, decades before her prime, and her performance against Tsavong Lah under negative circumstances, also long before her prime. If Jaina is skilful enough for her to be regarded as the combative equal of any in the Order, then she's quite impressive. That chapter(s) repeatedly mentions how she might have been even more threatening to the Sith than Luke himself. Take it for what you will, since it's Denning and Legacy Luke, but it's evident that she's intended to be very impressive as a swordfighter. Malgus doesn't really have anything of that level.

Her unorthodoxy really isn't all that useful, nor is her Shatterpoint. Malgus's sheer strength and durability are more useful edges.

It is to some extent. Malgus's sheer strength isn't doing him much more in this fight. His durability is the only thing that would matter more than these, but as I said, they are supplementary edges, so I don't know why you would compare something like this to Malgus's primary edge of durability.

Regarding strength and general physicality, when sufficiently empowered with the Force (and it's not Oneness or something like that), Jaina could "put her fist through durasteel walls" or "catch a blaster bolt between her fingers". She's also kicked Beskar-wearing Mandalorians with enough force to give them concussions.

Based on what would she be able to "tank" several Force or physical attacks from Malgus? Malgus kicked Adraas into a stone column hard enough to split it in half like "lightning would a tree", breaking his ribs in the process.

Adraas has no physical feats to compare to Jaina. And Jaina has withstood several strikes from Caedus, including brief lightsabers hits. She was hardly unaffected, but she displayed good durability against him as well.

Not really. Malgus's speed showings while injured and a decade and a half prior to Deceived, and perceiving dozens of blaster bolts moving in slow motion, as well as having no speed issues with characters who also have equivalent showings to Jaina, is enough to suggest she isn't faster.

None of these showings are on par with Jaina's speed feats, which involve reacting to lightning-based attacks and several others one I haven't added yet, such as reacting to sub-light ships. She was also faster than Alema Rar, who has similar speed feats to Malgus.

I'd like to hear your reasoning for this. Seems pretty unreasonable to me. Strength is going to be far more prevalent between two characters who will inevitably end up brawling with each other here and there, and Malgus actually has demonstrated far greater strength than Jaina, whereas Jaina has failed to do the same regarding speed.

Jaina contending with Caedus in strength (somebody who could hurt Luke) is enough for me. Yes, there are circumstances, but it's important to note that Jacen was actually seemingly unaffected by most of his injuries (even Jaina recognized this) with the exception of the surprise-attack abdomen impalement. If anything, he was still standing after he was stabbed in the gut, threw Jaina with the Force, and moved superhumanly fast immediately after. He wasn't actually crippled by his injuries until much later on in the fight, when Jaina also became hindered by her own injuries. And as with all Sith, Jacen has displayed the ability to actually draw on his injuries to perform better (and this was mentioned as being the case in his fights with Luke and Jaina as well), and he can do so to a better degree than most Sith, including Malgus.

Regarding Luke aiding Jaina in their earlier fight, it's possible, but to be fair, I don't recall the text specifically mentioning that he actually enhanced her, only gave her the Illusion of having his face. I'll have to check again.

Doubt that. Malgus has found success with his lightning on several occasions - he blew Aryn Leneer's lightsaber defence apart and killed her with it.

Aryn Leneer doesn't have Jaina's fighting style or her fighting skill, at all. So this isn't a comparable instance.

@shootingnova: I don't mind disagreements, because there is discussion to be had, but you do kind of have a lot of other people disagreeing with you in this thread.

Mostly because Jaina's overrated, IMO.

Jaina's durability isn't even on par with Malgus's, and she doesn't really rely on them to tank hits for her. She's more of an avoider, but she can take melee/Force-based hits if necessary.

I'm fully aware that it isn't. I know she doesn't rely on getting hit, I'm just saying that when she does inevitably get hit, it's going to matter more than when Malgus does.

It doesn't matter if he was Choking somebody else. I never said he was Choking her (doing so would actually hinder her Force power to some degree)

Simply saying that Jaina "broke Caedus's Force choke" will inevitably elude to most people who haven't read the material that she prevented him from choking her, which would be more impressive than what is actually the case.

, and whilst she did use all of her Force strength, breaking the Choke of somebody who is considerably more powerful than Malgus is a notable power feat, even if it doesn't make her on par with him in direct Force power.

The thing is, it really isn't all that impressive. Caedus was hardly directing a great deal of power into holding someone's windpipe with TK, and Jaina requiring every ounce of her power just to break that kind of grip shows that she's just nowhere near Caedus. It's impressive, but Malgus is still substantially more powerful.

Weight isn't the issue here, it's mostly the fact that Jaina's feat constitutes a comparable level of power to Kyp Durron. Who, if I may say so, is considerably more powerful than Malgus.

No, Nova. Hitting someone with lightning doesn't mean you're comparably powerful to them.

I'm already aware of all of Malgus's showings. Injured, and evidently drawing on rage that surpassed his injuries in terms of the benefit/hindrance ratio, and his improvements between Alderaan and Coruscant were relatively minor in terms of feats. If we go by powerscaling and implications, it could be more than what feats show us but not by too much.

Which is irrelevant because Malgus draws on his rage with great potency and frequency under usual circumstances anyway, so him being injured only improves the feat.

I'm pretty sure 14 years of constant frontline combat is enough to constitute a substantial power increase. Characters can see a noticeable increase in power just by participating in something like the Clone Wars for three years, never mind a war against thousands of Force sensitives that spans over a decade.

Again, I'm already aware of this. And again, it seems superior mostly by virtue of its destructive content, but in terms of sheer power, it's not really above Jaina.

It doesn't matter if you're aware of it - I'm bringing it up for my argument.

No, it's just superior because it's superior, mostly because of how little effort Malgus put into it.

And "simple irritation" can be a brief burst of empowerment - especially to somebody like Malgus, who is renowned for his habit of being empowered by his rage.

Okay... still doesn't change the fact that he wasn't nearly as angry as he could be in an actual combat scenario.

Based on her general performances and accolades. Caedus's fights are circumstantial, but we do have to consider the fact that Caedus is also just far and away superior to Malgus as well.

And? I'm pretty sure Malgus would do well against Caedus as well if you hooked him up with some of Luke's Force power, and then injured Caedus to varying levels of severity. That her feats were only possible through having substantial advantages is what makes them close to useless for Jaina's skill level, because it ends up being largely subjective in the end.

She had respectable performances against Slayers, decades before her prime, and her performance against Tsavong Lah under negative circumstances, also long before her prime.

Are they really enough to supersede Malgus's showings to such a great extent? Malgus was already one of the greatest warriors in the Empire 28 years prior to Deceived, at which point he killed the Jedi Battlemaster. He then goes on to defeating Satele Shan soundly, someone who just got done absolutely stomping several Sith in single moves. Then, he defeats Ven Zallow, who ended up being his most famous kill (making him more skilled than Darach, who is honestly around Qui-Gon's level in skill). Zallow also being someone capable of handily stomping pairs of Sith at a time. I also think it's worth noting that Malgus acquiring such a good accolade 28 years prior to Deceived is worth noting, considering the ridiculous amount of time he spent fighting and inevitably improving between those times.

If Jaina is skilful enough for her to be regarded as the combative equal of any in the Order, then she's quite impressive. That chapter(s) repeatedly mentions how she might have been even more threatening to the Sith than Luke himself. Take it for what you will, since it's Denning and Legacy Luke, but it's evident that she's intended to be very impressive as a swordfighter.

I guess Jaina is =/> Luke, then.....

Malgus doesn't really have anything of that level.

Aside from hyperbolic accolades that do little to establish Jaina as something other than a very skilled fighter, I believe he does. His opponents are all typically well-documented fighters with impressive skill showings, and Malgus's skill level via irrefutable time scaling should make him pretty close to Jaina as a combatant.

It is to some extent. Malgus's sheer strength isn't doing him much more in this fight.

Based on what?

Yes, it is. Simply saying it isn't doesn't do much for your case. By a comparison of feats, and their fighting styles leading me to believe that martial-arts will play a large role in this fight, Malgus clearly has a solid strength advantage.

His durability is the only thing that would matter more than these, but as I said, they are supplementary edges, so I don't know why you would compare something like this to Malgus's primary edge of durability.

Malgus's strength and durability are equally useful; Jaina's unorthodoxy and shatterpoint are equally irrelevant.

Regarding strength and general physicality, when sufficiently empowered with the Force (and it's not Oneness or something like that), Jaina could "put her fist through durasteel walls" or "catch a blaster bolt between her fingers". She's also kicked Beskar-wearing Mandalorians with enough force to give them concussions.

You mean when sufficiently empowered by Luke? Because that was the state she was in when she believed she could accomplish those feats.

Giving a non-Force sensitive a concussion isn't comparable to Malgus's showings.

Adraas has no physical feats to compare to Jaina.

That's not the point, at all. Malgus kicked him hard enough for his body to fly into a stone column and split it in half. Splitting a stone column in half with a strike would be enough to eclipse Jaina's strength showings, never mind striking someone hard enough for their body to do so just from hitting it.

And Jaina has withstood several strikes from Caedus, including brief lightsabers hits. She was hardly unaffected, but she displayed good durability against him as well.

In one instance Caedus had an injured shoulder and Jaina was being amped by Luke. In the other, Caedus was missing an arm, had been stabbed in the stomach by a lightsaber, and as a result needed to devote much of his reserves to tackle those injuries instead of spending them on destroying Jaina. A fresh Malgus is stronger than an extremely weakened Caedus.

None of these showings are on par with Jaina's speed feats, which involve reacting to lightning-based attacks and several others one I haven't added yet, such as reacting to sub-light ships. She was also faster than Alema Rar, who has similar speed feats to Malgus.

Malgus reacted to Adraas' lightning just fine, and space-combat reaction feats get thrown around way too much for them to be useful for distinguishing any disparities in combat speed between lightsaber duelists. Alema's only comparable showing to Malgus would be her appearing to have three heads and six arms, which was a by-product of Leia hitting her head and not having regained her focus, not Alema's speed.

Jaina contending with Caedus in strength (somebody who could hurt Luke) is enough for me. Yes, there are circumstances, but it's important to note that Jacen was actually seemingly unaffected by most of his injuries (even Jaina recognized this) with the exception of the surprise-attack abdomen impalement. If anything, he was still standing after he was stabbed in the gut, threw Jaina with the Force, and moved superhumanly fast immediately after. He wasn't actually crippled by his injuries until much later on in the fight, when Jaina also became hindered by her own injuries. And as with all Sith, Jacen has displayed the ability to actually draw on his injuries to perform better (and this was mentioned as being the case in his fights with Luke and Jaina as well), and he can do so to a better degree than most Sith, including Malgus.

No amount of circumstance-mitigating gets away from the fact that in one scenario, Jaina was amped and Caedus was injured, and in another, Caedus was missing an arm and had a lightsaber hole in his stomach. He would have inevitably been weaker than normal in both scenarios (or Jaina would have been stronger), by a considerable margin I would say. Unless you seriously want to claim that Jaina was contending with and defeated a Caedus who wasn't actually all that injured, which either elevates Jaina close to Caedus's level, or drops Caedus pretty low from where most currently rank him. I think it'd be more reasonable to just acknowledge how grave his injuries were, but that's just me.

Regarding Luke aiding Jaina in their earlier fight, it's possible, but to be fair, I don't recall the text specifically mentioning that he actually enhanced her, only gave her the Illusion of having his face. I'll have to check again.

It's clear Luke was aiding her judging by this:

Despite the ringing in her ears and the gauze in her head-despite her hugely aching skull and the big knot of hurt swelling on her brow-Jaina had never been so filled with the Force. She could feel it in every cell of her body, swirling through her like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. She had never felt so strong or so quick or so alert. She could drive her fist through a durasteel wall, or catch a blaster bolt between her fingers. Despite the red curtain of blood cascading from the gash where Vatok's helmet had split her forehead, she was aware of everything.

Aryn Leneer doesn't have Jaina's fighting style or her fighting skill, at all. So this isn't a comparable instance.

No, but she does have the ability to deflect Force blasts which were sufficient to shattered stone statues and then subsequently dominate the Sith who launched that attack and his partner. She's also cacoon'd herself and Zeerid from terminal velocity, and held off Malgus's earlier-book lightning, yet when he ramped it up to it's highest extent her lightsabers just blew away and he killed her. She's on a comparable or superior level of power to Jaina, and is aware of how to defend herself from lightning, and Malgus destroyed her with it in the end. So he should have similar success against Jaina at some point or another, and I question how well her durability will stand up to it.

@i_like_swords: I'll respond as soon as I can, which might have to be a day or two. I'll try to respond tonight.

Probably Malgus.

@i_like_swords: Malgus didn't kill Zallow 28 years prior to Deceived, he kills him in the beginning of Deceived. And he didn't kill Aryn, she just got knocked out by his lightning. Lol

@thevivas: The former must have been a typo on my part, could you point out where I said that? And yeah, I forgot he spared her lol.

@i_like_swords:

"Are they really enough to supersede Malgus's showings to such a great extent? Malgus was already one of the greatest warriors in the Empire 28 years prior to Deceived, at which point he killed the Jedi Battlemaster. He then goes on to defeating Satele Shan soundly, someone who just got done absolutely stomping several Sith in single moves. Then, he defeats Ven Zallow, who ended up being his most famous kill (making him more skilled than Darach, who is honestly around Qui-Gon's level in skill). Zallow also being someone capable of handily stomping pairs of Sith at a time. I also think it's worth noting that Malgus acquiring such a good accolade 28 years prior to Deceived is worth noting, considering the ridiculous amount of time he spent fighting and inevitably improving between those times."

Sorry, on my iPad at the moment. Lol. I might have interpreted it wrong, but it seemed like you said he did all of these feats 28 years prior to Deceived, but the battle of Alderaan was only a few months before Deceived, I believe.

And I think he might have been amped by Force Rage when he overpowered her defenses, seeing as how it was right after she had captured Eleena and taunted him with her.

@thevivas: When I said "He then goes on to" I was trying to make clear that it was years after the Battle of Korriban. His fight with Satele was 14 years after Korriban, IIRC, while Deceived was 28 years after.

Eh, Malgus is always liable to become bloodlusted.

@i_like_swords: Alright, responding now.

Mostly because Jaina's overrated, IMO.

Could say the same about Malgus, to be honest, who is far more well-known if anything. Jaina is generally an unknown for most people, so it's hard for her to be overrated.

I'm fully aware that it isn't. I know she doesn't rely on getting hit, I'm just saying that when she does inevitably get hit, it's going to matter more than when Malgus does.

Of course it will. That's not my point.

Simply saying that Jaina "broke Caedus's Force choke" will inevitably elude to most people who haven't read the material that she prevented him from choking her, which would be more impressive than what is actually the case.

I can understand the ambiguity, but not sure why it would elude anybody. I didn't say Jaina escaped Caedus's Force Choke, only that she telekinetically broke it and that's exactly how the text described it.

It would be more impressive if she did it when she was Choked, because if she was Choked she'd be hindered to some degree. Still, not sure why people would think this when you aren't going to be able to break the Choke out of somebody who is more powerful than you anyways, provided that they are Choking you.

The thing is, it really isn't all that impressive. Caedus was hardly directing a great deal of power into holding someone's windpipe with TK, and Jaina requiring every ounce of her power just to break that kind of grip shows that she's just nowhere near Caedus. It's impressive, but Malgus is still substantially more powerful.

Caedus's power usage is ambiguous, although if anything I might actually be inclined to agree with you. If Jacen could feel Jaina removing his Force grip, it'd be more logical for him to reinforce his telekinetic grip to some extent, though.

No, Nova. Hitting someone with lightning doesn't mean you're comparably powerful to them.

Sure it doesn't. But it does when your Lightning actually slams them into walls. It actually had notable effect. Whereas Mighella was clearly not comparable to Maul because her Lightning meant nothing to him. That's not the case here.

Which is irrelevant because Malgus draws on his rage with great potency and frequency under usual circumstances anyway, so him being injured only improves the feat.

I'm pretty sure 14 years of constant frontline combat is enough to constitute a substantial power increase. Characters can see a noticeable increase in power just by participating in something like the Clone Wars for three years, never mind a war against thousands of Force sensitives that spans over a decade.

Yes, but you bringing up those negative circumstances to make the feat sound better is certainly not irrelevant. Those negative circumstances were virtually non-existent in the text, because of his rage. If anything, the text states that he was potentially amped more than anything else (rage "whetting" his power).

Fighting against Force-sensitives or not doesn't really make a difference in how much your power increases. 14 years of combat is mostly a buildup of experience and potentially skill, not direct power. Power is just enhanced by Malgus's fourteen years of general growth. The conflict just ensures his capacity to use it, but how much it actually improves him is questionable considering that his power increases are rather ambiguous. We're looking at his general showings.

And? I'm pretty sure Malgus would do well against Caedus as well if you hooked him up with some of Luke's Force power, and then injured Caedus to varying levels of severity. That her feats were only possible through having substantial advantages is what makes them close to useless for Jaina's skill level, because it ends up being largely subjective in the end.

Luke making Caedus see an Illusion doesn't mean that Luke is improving Jaina's fighting capability, and the text notes that Caedus was fighting without impairment from his loss of an arm.

Jaina launched herself after Caedus. The loss of an arm did not seem to faze him. He simply turned to meet her attack, his yellow eyes blazing with pain and fury, and their lightsabers met in a brilliant explosion of color.

Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible

So Caedus's pain tolerance was such that the major injuries didn't actually impair him, let alone minor ones. And Luke causing Jacen to see an Illusion of himself rather than Jaina doesn't mean he's aiding Jaina directly in terms of combat, which was never stated anywhere IIRC. I'll check once again to make sure.

Are they really enough to supersede Malgus's showings to such a great extent? Malgus was already one of the greatest warriors in the Empire 28 years prior to Deceived, at which point he killed the Jedi Battlemaster. He then goes on to defeating Satele Shan soundly, someone who just got done absolutely stomping several Sith in single moves. Then, he defeats Ven Zallow, who ended up being his most famous kill (making him more skilled than Darach, who is honestly around Qui-Gon's level in skill). Zallow also being someone capable of handily stomping pairs of Sith at a time. I also think it's worth noting that Malgus acquiring such a good accolade 28 years prior to Deceived is worth noting, considering the ridiculous amount of time he spent fighting and inevitably improving between those times.

What? Malgus killed Ven Zallow in the novel/trailer Deceived, not 28 years before that. 28 years prior to Deceived was the start of the war, not the end of it. lol

Satele stomping featless Sith via speed more than skill doesn't really impress me, nor is Kao Cen Darach a "Qui-Gon-level" swordsman because he defeated Vindican (who has nothing) and Malgus (who, at the time, was just accolades) through a combination of skill and also unorthodoxy in his weapon style. And yes, unorthodoxy played a part, and therefore it should here as well.

Both these feats involved Malgus being amped and having better physicals than normal, so as actual skill feats, they're not close to Jaina's at all. And before you say it, yes, I know Malgus is prone to being enraged. I admitted that in my opening post. But as I said, without it, he's not going to be able to win. He depends on it.

Ven Zallow being the most famous kill could be because he is more skilled, but it could also just be because he was the most popular. He was the head defended of the Jedi Temple and he's just a more well-known Jedi in general (he's referenced more in in-universe sources, I believe, but I could be wrong on that), and there were witnesses to that fight. He probably is more skilled though, but not really by much. More of a negligible difference if anything.

I guess Jaina is =/> Luke, then.....

Didn't you hear what I just said to you? I already noted that it was Denning, but it's not to be taken with a grain of salt. It's hyperbole, but as with Mace's "best in the Order" accolades, it's proof that she's clearly in the highest tier of living swordsmen, so she could literally be a tier 9 swordsman, if anything (using your tiers, of course).

Malgus doesn't have these sorts of accolades. He doesn't have this sort of hyperbole, either.

Aside from hyperbolic accolades that do little to establish Jaina as something other than a very skilled fighter, I believe he does. His opponents are all typically well-documented fighters with impressive skill showings, and Malgus's skill level via irrefutable time scaling should make him pretty close to Jaina as a combatant.

Hardly well-documented. Ven Zallow has only beaten fodder Sith and Adraas, and Kao won against a pre-prime Malgus and Vindican (both of whom have no feats) with the edge of unorthodoxy (his doublesaber and single saber combination was clearly one they hadn't seen before), which you're also refusing to accept will play a role here.

Based on what?

Based on the fact that Malgus has been affected by unorthodoxy before.

Yes, it is. Simply saying it isn't doesn't do much for your case. By a comparison of feats, and their fighting styles leading me to believe that martial-arts will play a large role in this fight, Malgus clearly has a solid strength advantage.

His strength appeared solidly dominating against other Force users with incomparable strength to Jaina's.

Or more importantly, Jaina has defended against strikes from people more powerful than Malgus is physically.

Malgus's strength and durability are equally useful; Jaina's unorthodoxy and shatterpoint are equally irrelevant.

If Kao's unique weapon combination was unorthodox enough to affect Malgus and Vindican, then suggesting that unorthodoxy is meaningless is ridiculous.

You mean when sufficiently empowered by Luke? Because that was the state she was in when she believed she could accomplish those feats.

Luke making Jacen see his face instead of Jaina's doesn't mean he's sufficiently empowering Jaina herself.

Giving a non-Force sensitive a concussion isn't comparable to Malgus's showings.

You're downplaying the feat as "non-Force sensitive". They were high-tier Mandalorians trained to kill Jedi, so they would have peak human/low superhuman durability alone, let alone the Beskar they were wearing. So yes, in total, it's comparable.

That's not the point, at all. Malgus kicked him hard enough for his body to fly into a stone column and split it in half. Splitting a stone column in half with a strike would be enough to eclipse Jaina's strength showings, never mind striking someone hard enough for their body to do so just from hitting it.

Yes, it eclipses Jaina's strength feats (which are few anyway). So what? Maul's strength feats visibly eclipsed Obi-Wan's, but their clashes depicted them as perfect equals. Malgus's strength feats are better than Yoda's, yet Yoda has repelled blows from stronger opponents (Palpatine).

Jaina's strength is not her most notable property, so it's natural that Malgus would be superior. If Jaina had nothing else, I'd be inclined to agree with you here. But Jaina has fought against stronger opponents or similarly strong opponents, so Malgus's strength edge is being overblown.

In one instance Caedus had an injured shoulder

The text states that the pain of his injured shoulder only served to amp him. So he wasn't hindered.

and Jaina was being amped by Luke.

In an indirect way. Jacen saw Luke's face instead of Jaina's, which is Luke using TP on Jacen, not directly enhacing Jaina's performance. I'll check it once more after this to be sure, but I don't recall the text stating that her performance was so considerably enhanced by Luke's Force power.

In the other, Caedus was missing an arm,

Which, as per the text, didn't even faze him.

had been stabbed in the stomach by a lightsaber,

And he continued to move superhumanly fast and hurl Jaina with the Force immediately afterwards. He was still standing - there was nothing more than a gape of surprise before he attacked Jaina relentlessly. There wasn't even description of impairment until later, with him suffering a myriad of other injuries. Otherwise, he was attacking Jaina just fine, which is a testament to his pain tolerance and resiliency, not the fact that he was hindered. Any hindrance would have been minor at best.

and as a result needed to devote much of his reserves to tackle those injuries instead of spending them on destroying Jaina.

This never happened. Jacen was "unfazed" by the injuries and instead noted that the pain would fuel him. His reserves were never taxed as a result of them.

A fresh Malgus is stronger than an extremely weakened Caedus.

Caedus was never extremely weakened in either of the fights, except towards the end of the last duel, and Jaina was weakened as well.

Malgus reacted to Adraas' lightning just fine,

He was hit by Adraas's Lightning as well, but I think he also deflected a burst or two. I'll check again.

Still, he did this during Deceived, whereas Jaina was doing this "decades before her prime", which you seem to love using as an argument.

and space-combat reaction feats get thrown around way too much for them to be useful for distinguishing any disparities in combat speed between lightsaber duelists.

It's not directly applicable, but clearly, Jaina's response times are better.

Alema's only comparable showing to Malgus would be her appearing to have three heads and six arms, which was a by-product of Leia hitting her head and not having regained her focus, not Alema's speed.

That was the heads only, not the arms, and she was injured during that as well. And Alema has other similar showings to Malgus, and the fact that she was actually fighting Leia in general is impressive, given Leia's tremendous speed feats.

No amount of circumstance-mitigating gets away from the fact that in one scenario, Jaina was amped and Caedus was injured, and in another, Caedus was missing an arm and had a lightsaber hole in his stomach. He would have inevitably been weaker than normal in both scenarios (or Jaina would have been stronger), by a considerable margin I would say. Unless you seriously want to claim that Jaina was contending with and defeated a Caedus who wasn't actually all that injured, which either elevates Jaina close to Caedus's level, or drops Caedus pretty low from where most currently rank him. I think it'd be more reasonable to just acknowledge how grave his injuries were, but that's just me.

No, it wasn't a considerable margin. The loss of an arm was meaningless to his fighting capability, and he fought just fine after his impalement, which is a testament to his resiliency.

Yes, I would claim that. His injuries were incredibly grave for a normal person, but not severely debilitating for Caedus. But that's, again, a testament to his own resiliency.

And yes, it elevates her closer to Caedus's level. I have her higher up than I used to, now.

It's clear Luke was aiding her judging by this:

Despite the ringing in her ears and the gauze in her head-despite her hugely aching skull and the big knot of hurt swelling on her brow-Jaina had never been so filled with the Force. She could feel it in every cell of her body, swirling through her like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. She had never felt so strong or so quick or so alert. She could drive her fist through a durasteel wall, or catch a blaster bolt between her fingers. Despite the red curtain of blood cascading from the gash where Vatok's helmet had split her forehead, she was aware of everything.

Jaina being adrenaline-pumped as she was in both fights, channeling the Force to maximum levels out of desperation in trying to kill Jacen, is not "clearly" indicative of Luke aiding her. Luke aided her by changing Jacen's perceptions.

And he wasn't aiding her in the second fight.

So in totality, there might have been circumstances, but they're being overblown. Caedus was nowhere near as hindered as you suggest, while Jaina's amplifications are entirely ambiguous and my original opinion of it was based on the fact that Luke was presently altering Jacen's perceptions, so he might have aided Jaina. I don't see a direct, conclusive quote of considerable amplification anywhere. And overall, this would suggest that Jaina is at least approachable to Caedus as a fencer, so suggesting that the difference between Jaina and Malgus is small or that the difference is anything but considerable is stretching.

No, but she does have the ability to deflect Force blasts which were sufficient to shattered stone statues and then subsequently dominate the Sith who launched that attack and his partner. She's also cacoon'd herself and Zeerid from terminal velocity, and held off Malgus's earlier-book lightning, yet when he ramped it up to it's highest extent her lightsabers just blew away and he killed her. She's on a comparable or superior level of power to Jaina, and is aware of how to defend herself from lightning, and Malgus destroyed her with it in the end. So he should have similar success against Jaina at some point or another, and I question how well her durability will stand up to it.

None of this means anything to me because I wasn't talking about power. I was talking about Jaina's fighting style/skill in comparison to Malgus's, which would limit his ability to abuse the Force. Aryn Leneer, an incomparable swordsman with a different fighting style, is not an ideal example to counter that. I said nothing regarding what would happen upon Malgus landing such injuries on Jaina. All I said is that the actual abuse of Force power is unlikely to be existent in the first case. Aryn Leneer's fight doesn't prove anything because she doesn't have Jaina's unorthodoxy/aggressive fighting style, and she doesn't compare as a swordsman.

Feelin' the rage on both sides. Liking where this is going.

@shootingnova:

Could say the same about Malgus, to be honest, who is far more well-known if anything. Jaina is generally an unknown for most people, so it's hard for her to be overrated.

Her being unknown kind of adds to the fact that her fans want to push her toward Caedus's level of power. Giving lesser known characters recognition is fine, but she's being stretched constantly.

Caedus's power usage is ambiguous, although if anything I might actually be inclined to agree with you. If Jacen could feel Jaina removing his Force grip, it'd be more logical for him to reinforce his telekinetic grip to some extent, though.

I suppose, I'm just saying, it's clear Jaina isn't anywhere near Caedus's power. There's a quote in your thread from one of her fights with him stating as such, actually, which I should dig out.

Sure it doesn't. But it does when your Lightning actually slams them into walls. It actually had notable effect. Whereas Mighella was clearly not comparable to Maul because her Lightning meant nothing to him. That's not the case here.

The strength of your lightning, and how it effects an opponent who has no defence up to repel said lightning, doesn't indicate how powerful a character is in comparison to who they're hitting. Kyp Durron isn't exactly ridiculously durable - he's about as durable as most notable Force sensitives, which is enough to be affected by lightning which can kill Vong with enough intensity. And being able to kill Vong with your lightning also isn't a feat that brings Jaina close to Durron, unless you want to argue for a plethora of other characters being approachable to him. It would be different if she contended with him in a telekinetic contest, but just hitting him with lightning doesn't indicate parity - it's tantamount to shooting him with a blaster.

Yes, but you bringing up those negative circumstances to make the feat sound better is certainly not irrelevant. Those negative circumstances were virtually non-existent in the text, because of his rage. If anything, the text states that he was potentially amped more than anything else (rage "whetting" his power).

They are relevant because as I said, even in uninjured states Malgus can "whet his power" with anger. It's what Sith do when they use the Force. When you have lung damage, deep cuts all over your body and contusions everywhere, your reserves will inevitably be diverted to bolster those physical drawbacks. Which means that any feats performed while injured is a feat performed with some of one's power diverted away from whatever else they're trying to accomplish (augmentation, telekinesis, and so on). Meaning, Malgus with full access to his power, would be more powerful than the version of him with all of the aforementioned injuries. That coupled by his propensity to get extremely angry in every situation - a core element in his fighting style regardless of whether or not he's injured - furthers the point.

Fighting against Force-sensitives or not doesn't really make a difference in how much your power increases. 14 years of combat is mostly a buildup of experience and potentially skill, not direct power. Power is just enhanced by Malgus's fourteen years of general growth. The conflict just ensures his capacity to use it, but how much it actually improves him is questionable considering that his power increases are rather ambiguous. We're looking at his general showings.

It's kind of a fact that through combat one increases in overall capability, which means Force powers as well. That's how Malgus strengthens his connection to the Force - combat. He goes on about it the whole way through Deceived. And it's true - being put in combat situations makes you more powerful. Maul is a good example. During his training under Sidious, he was gradually growing in power all the time, and then after fighting Sidious during his Sith Lord trials, he felt a surge in power afterwards, like he was stronger than he was before. Even after his fight with the Wampa alone he felt stronger afterwards. Given the ordeals Malgus has been put through, and the large amount of time he has to do nothing but fight in-between the trailers, it's inevitable that he would be noticeably more powerful by Deceived.

Not that this really matters because his showings are better than Jaina's anyway.

Luke making Caedus see an Illusion doesn't mean that Luke is improving Jaina's fighting capability,

What means that Luke is improving Jaina's fighting capability, is Luke improving Jaina's fighting capability.

Jaina being adrenaline-pumped as she was in both fights, channeling the Force to maximum levels out of desperation in trying to kill Jacen, is not "clearly" indicative of Luke aiding her. Luke aided her by changing Jacen's perceptions.

She clearly wasn't just adrenalin pumped. She believed herself capable of putting her arm through a durasteel wall - well beyond her standard strength capabilities. It isn't explicitly stated that Luke was empowering her but in my mind it's just obvious that he had. Prior to fighting Caedus, there is no indication that Jaina could be on his level of power or near it, yes she's suddenly able to just because Caedus thinks he's fighting Luke? Even earlier on in the series the Vong placed Jacen alongside Luke in terms of threat level while singling out Jaina as clearly being the weakest combatant, which is why they devoted more troops to killing her first while Jacen and Luke were preoccupied. And then there is this:

That brought Caedus's gaze snapping back toward her, and Jaina realized she might have overplayed her hand. She still had both arms, but the fact that her brother remained standing at all proved how much greater his Force powers were than her own.

So yeah, I'm not buying it. Jaina's fights with Caedus are riddled with circumstances that are being purposely mitigated for the sake of boosting her above where she should be.

and the text notes that Caedus was fighting without impairment from his loss of an arm.

That was written from Jaina's perspective. From Caedus's perspective, he needed to divert Force energy to supplement the shoulder injury he started both fights with:

Caedus had to stretch himself out belly-down in midair to meet the attack, and even calling on the Force to bolster the strength in his good arm, it was all he could do to keep the powerful strikes from knocking his guard aside and leaving him wide open.

"even calling on the Force to bolster the strength in his good arm" implies that he was diverting even more energy to his injured one. Also, the quote above furthers the point that Luke was amping Jaina, unless you now want to claim that Jaina's strength is sufficient to nearly batter Caedus's lightsaber defence apart. She wasn't even capable of that in her second fight with him when he was in a far worse state than above, which again, makes it clear that Luke was amping her beyond what she's usually capable of.

More to the point of Caedus's injury, however - it's made clear in the quote I gave you about Caedus's power being far greater than Jaina's because of his ability to fight through injuries, and the quote above, that Caedus was required to divert extra energy to supplement his injuries. Him not being phased by the loss of an entire arm, and being stabbed through the stomach, is a joke. He may have appeared that way because of how much of a beast he is, but, it's a fact that the amount of blood loss and bodily damaged caused by those kinds of injuries can only be sustained through channelling your Force power.

So Jaina was fighting a significantly weaker Caedus.

What? Malgus killed Ven Zallow in the novel/trailer Deceived, not 28 years before that. 28 years prior to Deceived was the start of the war, not the end of it. lol

I didn't know Malgus killing Ven Zallow was an "accolade" instead of a "feat". Because when I was referencing an accolade I was clearly referring to his "one of the greatest in the Empire" quote.

Satele stomping featless Sith via speed more than skill doesn't really impress me

It's more speed than skill when it suits people, tbh. It's a combination of the two. Fast fighters are typically also very skilled because skill is tied in directly with the speed of your blows, your muscle memory and so on. Satele's ability to absolutely fodderize other Sith is an ability she can carry over into any other fight, regardless of how much you want to distribute to speed or skill.

nor is Kao Cen Darach a "Qui-Gon-level" swordsman because he defeated Vindican (who has nothing) and Malgus (who, at the time, was just accolades) through a combination of skill and also unorthodoxy in his weapon style. And yes, unorthodoxy played a part, and therefore it should here as well.

Jinn hasn't really done anything better, tbh. He's held off Maul, and is better than Anoon Bondara. Kao outfighting one of the best warriors in the Empire and his master at the same time is a great feat of skill. And while unorthodoxy played some part, the only truly baffling aspect of Kao's fighting strategy was the alternating blades with Satele's saberstaff. Vindican and Malgus had numbers, and both are familar enough with a saberstaff that Kao simply wielding one in conjunction with a single saber isn't too hard to deal with. More to the point, however, it requires a great deal of skill to wield a saberstaff and regular saber with such efficiency, never mind alternating between blades in order to catch out an opponent. Kao is clearly very skilled. And Malgus ended up defeating both him and someone who is considered better than him, making Malgus incredibly skilled as well.

Both these feats involved Malgus being amped and having better physicals than normal, so as actual skill feats, they're not close to Jaina's at all. And before you say it, yes, I know Malgus is prone to being enraged. I admitted that in my opening post. But as I said, without it, he's not going to be able to win. He depends on it.

Lol. Malgus is always amped, just like every Force user is always amped. That's what Force augmentation is. That Malgus is a physical monster is irrelevant because he's always a physical powerhouse going into any fight, unless you want to claim he's just going to turn his augmentation off for Jaina's benefit? She relies on augmentation just as much as him, he's probably just better at channelling it.

And actually, they are primarily feats of skill. Against both Satele and Zallow he sought a tactical victory and achieved one in both fights. So no, he doesn't just depend on his physicals. He's actually a very capable swordsman.

Ven Zallow being the most famous kill could be because he is more skilled, but it could also just be because he was the most popular. He was the head defended of the Jedi Temple and he's just a more well-known Jedi in general (he's referenced more in in-universe sources, I believe, but I could be wrong on that), and there were witnesses to that fight. He probably is more skilled though, but not really by much. More of a negligible difference if anything.

Not sure about it being in reference to Zallow being more popular. Kao was the Jedi Battlemaster, so inevitably most Jedi are going to come into contact with him. Zallow had no such rank, and the reason he was defending the Jedi temple is because many other prominent Jedi were signing the peace treaty on Alderaan, so Zallow is hardly famous to begin with.

I wouldn't call it negligible, either. The fact that there is a clear hierarchy of Malgus's opponents, and that Malgus is at the top of the hierarchy, deepens his dueling resume.

Didn't you hear what I just said to you? I already noted that it was Denning, but it's not to be taken with a grain of salt. It's hyperbole, but as with Mace's "best in the Order" accolades, it's proof that she's clearly in the highest tier of living swordsmen, so she could literally be a tier 9 swordsman, if anything (using your tiers, of course).

Malgus doesn't have these sorts of accolades. He doesn't have this sort of hyperbole, either.

And? There are plenty of beings with better feats than Jaina who lack that accolade. And it really is a silly quote considering both the Vong and Jacen have recognized Jaina as not being at the very highest tier of the Jedi of her day. That spot is reserved for the likes of Luke and Jacen/Caedus.

He doesn't need unreliable quotes - he has comparable feats.

Hardly well-documented. Ven Zallow has only beaten fodder Sith and Adraas, and Kao won against a pre-prime Malgus and Vindican (both of whom have no feats) with the edge of unorthodoxy (his doublesaber and single saber combination was clearly one they hadn't seen before), which you're also refusing to accept will play a role here.

What's your point? Zallow fodderizing Sith among a group of 50 who were handpicked to sack the Jedi temple is a great feat. Kao's feat is also good. And lol @ me "refusing to accept" a point you've only just brought up in this very post.

Based on the fact that Malgus has been affected by unorthodoxy before.

I don't want to hear about Malgus - I want to hear about why Jaina's "unorthodoxy" is so useful. This is what Caedus had to say about her fighting style:

His uncle had been using a new fighting style, one that he had never taught his students at the Jedi academy-one that he had never, as far as Caedus knew, used on anyone who had survived to describe it. The style was essentially conservative, brutal, and ruthless, designed to deal damage without suffering it-and not all that tricky.

And I believe there's further descriptions of her fighting style noting that it's just very direct and brutal, which while different from the seven lightsaber forms, isn't particularly troublesome as a style itself.

His strength appeared solidly dominating against other Force users with incomparable strength to Jaina's.

Or more importantly, Jaina has defended against strikes from people more powerful than Malgus is physically.

Again, what relevance does this have? Malgus having a large strength advantage over Jaina alone is the main point, not how she stacks up to people Malgus has crushed.

From who? And please don't reference her ability to defend against Caedus while amped, or her finding success against a Caedus who was diverting energy to replenishing an injured shoulder, a missing arm and stabbed gut.

If Kao's unique weapon combination was unorthodox enough to affect Malgus and Vindican, then suggesting that unorthodoxy is meaningless is ridiculous.

...Im still yet to see how Jaina's unorthodoxy could be comparable to Darach wielding a saberstaff/saber combination. She isn't really that unorthodox of a fighter aside from the fact she doesn't use the seven forms. What's ridiculous is trying to invent supplementary edges for a character in order to boost their chances of winning a fight.

You're downplaying the feat as "non-Force sensitive". They were high-tier Mandalorians trained to kill Jedi, so they would have peak human/low superhuman durability alone, let alone the Beskar they were wearing. So yes, in total, it's comparable.

You're making an awfully large assumption regarding that Mandalorian's physicality, and just because he's wearing a helmet doesn't mean he wouldn't have felt the impact of a kick sending his brain rocking around in his skull. And Malgus kicking Adraas into a stone column hard enough to split it in half is enough to completely blow this feat away, so there goes your case.

Yes, it eclipses Jaina's strength feats (which are few anyway). So what? Maul's strength feats visibly eclipsed Obi-Wan's, but their clashes depicted them as perfect equals. Malgus's strength feats are better than Yoda's, yet Yoda has repelled blows from stronger opponents (Palpatine).

Jaina's strength is not her most notable property, so it's natural that Malgus would be superior. If Jaina had nothing else, I'd be inclined to agree with you here. But Jaina has fought against stronger opponents or similarly strong opponents, so Malgus's strength edge is being overblown.

lol @ taking the abilities of other characters and applying them to Jaina. Obi-Wan is extremely well suited to dealing with powerful fighters, and Yoda is Palpatine's equal on all fronts by RotS and to claim otherwise would be silly.

No, she hasn't. And it's not being overblown. All I've actually said regarding Malgus's strength is that over the course of the fight, his far greater strength would allow him to deal lasting damage to Jaina, whereas Jaina won't be slowing Malgus down with anything short of lightsaber injuries.

And he continued to move superhumanly fast and hurl Jaina with the Force immediately afterwards. He was still standing - there was nothing more than a gape of surprise before he attacked Jaina relentlessly. There wasn't even description of impairment until later, with him suffering a myriad of other injuries. Otherwise, he was attacking Jaina just fine, which is a testament to his pain tolerance and resiliency, not the fact that he was hindered. Any hindrance would have been minor at best.

You're right Nova. The physical drawbacks of having your arm cut off and a lightsaber put through your stomach would have been minor at best. It's not like Jacen was devoting much of his reserves to counter-act such grievous injuries or anything...

This never happened. Jacen was "unfazed" by the injuries and instead noted that the pain would fuel him. His reserves were never taxed as a result of them.

Your complete disregard for sections of source material you're supposed to be an expert on is astounding. All I had to do was read a respect thread to find out that Caedus's injuries required him to divert extra power to bolstering his physical resolve. It should be a no-brainer anyway, because regardless of who you are, those types of injuries are terrible for your body.

He was hit by Adraas's Lightning as well, but I think he also deflected a burst or two. I'll check again.

Still, he did this during Deceived, whereas Jaina was doing this "decades before her prime", which you seem to love using as an argument.

Nope, he reacted to it and let it stay on his lightsaber. It began reaching past his lightsaber and burned Malgus himself but he just ignored it.

Lol you and others were using the "before prime" argument far before I ever have. And it's a fair point. Although what is also a fair point is pointing out that being able to hold a lightsaber up in front of lightning isn't really enough to demonstrate a considerable gap in combat speed.

It's not directly applicable, but clearly, Jaina's response times are better.

Not sure if I agree. Malgus perceiving blaster bolts in slow motion is clearly enough to indicate that his perception speed is negligibly close to hers.

That was the heads only, not the arms, and she was injured during that as well. And Alema has other similar showings to Malgus, and the fact that she was actually fighting Leia in general is impressive, given Leia's tremendous speed feats.

Proof her arms after-images weren't also a by-product of Leia's head injury? And what are these other similar showings I'm unaware of? The only ones you cited for Alema in your Jaina thread was her moving with afterimages because Leia had a sore head, and making a shield out of her blade, which is a woeful speed feat considering everyone and their grandmother has accomplished it.

No, it wasn't a considerable margin. The loss of an arm was meaningless to his fighting capability, and he fought just fine after his impalement, which is a testament to his resiliency.

Yes, I would claim that. His injuries were incredibly grave for a normal person, but not severely debilitating for Caedus. But that's, again, a testament to his own resiliency.

And yes, it elevates her closer to Caedus's level. I have her higher up than I used to, now.

Again, your inability to properly interpret how Caedus handled such terrible injuries is astounding. Caedus is still a "normal person" in that he will still feel the negative effects of missing an arm and being stabbed in the stomach. What sets him apart his ability to divert energy to replenish himself after such injuries, which takes away from his ability to augment himself and so on. Not to mention missing a freaking arm definitely restricts your combative options, and to claim otherwise is a fools errand.

Your opinion of her changes rapidly, and that's due to just how subjective her showings against Caedus are. At one point you had her as an even split with Maul, then within six days you changed that to her being able to beat RotJ Vader. Now, Jaina is approaching Caedus's capabilities? Give me a break. The fact is she's below all of those aforementioned characters and her ability to last against Caedus was due to having massive advantages on her side.

So in totality, there might have been circumstances, but they're being overblown. Caedus was nowhere near as hindered as you suggest, while Jaina's amplifications are entirely ambiguous and my original opinion of it was based on the fact that Luke was presently altering Jacen's perceptions, so he might have aided Jaina. I don't see a direct, conclusive quote of considerable amplification anywhere. And overall, this would suggest that Jaina is at least approachable to Caedus as a fencer, so suggesting that the difference between Jaina and Malgus is small or that the difference is anything but considerable is stretching.

Nope, lol.

None of this means anything to me because I wasn't talking about power. I was talking about Jaina's fighting style/skill in comparison to Malgus's, which would limit his ability to abuse the Force.

Based on what?

Aryn Leneer, an incomparable swordsman with a different fighting style, is not an ideal example to counter that.

Aryn is a highly aggressive fighter who employs a lot of acrobatics and avoidance. If anything she would be harder to hit with lightning than someone like Jaina who comparatively makes it quite easy.

I said nothing regarding what would happen upon Malgus landing such injuries on Jaina. All I said is that the actual abuse of Force power is unlikely to be existent in the first case. Aryn Leneer's fight doesn't prove anything because she doesn't have Jaina's unorthodoxy/aggressive fighting style, and she doesn't compare as a swordsman.

Because she would be cooked.

Jaina's unorthodoxy is practically non-existent, and she's just as aggressive as Jaina, just more evasive. And Aryn being able to fight evenly with Malgus makes her a comparable swordfighter to Jaina, seeing as Malgus himself is.

Jaina would win decisively.

Did Swords make a thread what a clear winner in mind.....wouldn't that be, well, a spite thread?

Just saying, LAL.

@dccomicsrule2011: Hardly a clear winner. I said Malgus would take a slight edge in my mind, and I'm representing Malgus on some points because I believe Jaina is being overrated when we're getting to the point where people are happy to pass her showings off against Caedus as negligibly close to how a non-circumstantial fight would play out.

Are you mad because the Sword of the Jedi isn't as great as you once saw her, DC?

@i_like_swords:

Her being unknown kind of adds to the fact that her fans want to push her toward Caedus's level of power. Giving lesser known characters recognition is fine, but she's being stretched constantly.

Power? No, not really. She already recognized her considerable inferiority to Caedus in that area. Only skill.

The strength of your lightning, and how it effects an opponent who has no defence up to repel said lightning, doesn't indicate how powerful a character is in comparison to who they're hitting. Kyp Durron isn't exactly ridiculously durable - he's about as durable as most notable Force sensitives, which is enough to be affected by lightning which can kill Vong with enough intensity. And being able to kill Vong with your lightning also isn't a feat that brings Jaina close to Durron, unless you want to argue for a plethora of other characters being approachable to him. It would be different if she contended with him in a telekinetic contest, but just hitting him with lightning doesn't indicate parity - it's tantamount to shooting him with a blaster.

Kyp is not "about as durable as most notable Force sensitives". His durability feats are vastly superior to most, and I never said there was any level of parity between the two, because if anything, Kyp is more of Jacen's power class. I said it's a level of approachability, because in every event where Force Lightning has hit somebody and actually hurled them about, it's pretty much been a display of superior power. In instances like Mighella where the Lightning really didn't do anything, it's clear that they weren't even comparable.

All I was saying is that Jaina is loosely comparable to Kyp.

They are relevant because as I said, even in uninjured states Malgus can "whet his power" with anger. It's what Sith do when they use the Force. When you have lung damage, deep cuts all over your body and contusions everywhere, your reserves will inevitably be diverted to bolster those physical drawbacks. Which means that any feats performed while injured is a feat performed with some of one's power diverted away from whatever else they're trying to accomplish (augmentation, telekinesis, and so on). Meaning, Malgus with full access to his power, would be more powerful than the version of him with all of the aforementioned injuries. That coupled by his propensity to get extremely angry in every situation - a core element in his fighting style regardless of whether or not he's injured - furthers the point.

The text clearly makes reference to Malgus being more powerful than usual, which to me, suggests that his rage more or less eliminated the hindrances of his severe injuries for at least the moments of his telekinetic feats.

She clearly wasn't just adrenalin pumped. She believed herself capable of putting her arm through a durasteel wall - well beyond her standard strength capabilities. It isn't explicitly stated that Luke was empowering her but in my mind it's just obvious that he had. Prior to fighting Caedus, there is no indication that Jaina could be on his level of power or near it, yes she's suddenly able to just because Caedus thinks he's fighting Luke? Even earlier on in the series the Vong placed Jacen alongside Luke in terms of threat level while singling out Jaina as clearly being the weakest combatant, which is why they devoted more troops to killing her first while Jacen and Luke were preoccupied. And then there is this:

I don't mean adrenaline-pumped as in what happened with Maul and so on. I'm more referring to what happened with Anakin in the RotS novel, in the earlier portions where he noted that he was performing unnaturally better, a performance that was enhanced mostly because of his innate power in general.

And of course Jaina isn't as good as Jacen in anything. I already noted that.

It's more speed than skill when it suits people, tbh. It's a combination of the two. Fast fighters are typically also very skilled because skill is tied in directly with the speed of your blows, your muscle memory and so on. Satele's ability to absolutely fodderize other Sith is an ability she can carry over into any other fight, regardless of how much you want to distribute to speed or skill.

Fodderizing fodder Sith is still not overly impressive.

And yes, it's speed. Speed and skill correspond to each other at times, but Sidious's tremendous speed edge over Maul is entirely separate of his skill edge, which is mostly about a tier or so. If you're far faster than somebody, you don't need to be all that much more skilled than them to just slice them into pieces. So even provided that Satele was far more skilled than them (which is pretty obvious anyway) the showing was mostly accomplished because she was striking them before they could properly defend themselves, hence a reference to speed.

Jinn hasn't really done anything better, tbh. He's held off Maul, and is better than Anoon Bondara. Kao outfighting one of the best warriors in the Empire and his master at the same time is a great feat of skill. And while unorthodoxy played some part, the only truly baffling aspect of Kao's fighting strategy was the alternating blades with Satele's saberstaff. Vindican and Malgus had numbers, and both are familar enough with a saberstaff that Kao simply wielding one in conjunction with a single saber isn't too hard to deal with. More to the point, however, it requires a great deal of skill to wield a saberstaff and regular saber with such efficiency, never mind alternating between blades in order to catch out an opponent. Kao is clearly very skilled. And Malgus ended up defeating both him and someone who is considered better than him, making Malgus incredibly skilled as well.

Malgus being one of the best warriors of the Empire is being overrated. It's a good accolade, but not too good. The Empire itself, at this time, had no other warriors that would be comparable to the higher-tier swordsmen. The most skilled Sith in the Empire mostly came afterwards. At this time, we had a bunch of some of the most "formidable" Sith losing to non-Force sensitives ranging from Bounty Hunters to the Imperial Guard (and yes, I know how they're trained and everything, but they remain non-Force sensitive).

Vindican has nothing. Shaak would beat him handily, lol.

Kao's skills are very apparent, but as I said, his feat is more than just sheer skill, hence why I'd still put Qui-Gon above him.

Malgus ended up defeating him through his fatigue and Malgus being evidently amped via Rage. He didn't even win legitimately. He would win later, though.

Lol. Malgus is always amped, just like every Force user is always amped. That's what Force augmentation is. That Malgus is a physical monster is irrelevant because he's always a physical powerhouse going into any fight, unless you want to claim he's just going to turn his augmentation off for Jaina's benefit? She relies on augmentation just as much as him, he's probably just better at channelling it.

By amped, I meant Rage amplifications.

And actually, they are primarily feats of skill. Against both Satele and Zallow he sought a tactical victory and achieved one in both fights. So no, he doesn't just depend on his physicals. He's actually a very capable swordsman.

I was referring more to Kao with that, actually. He was amped against Ven as well, to some degree. And as I said, I'm aware of Malgus's chances through Rage. I already noted that it's his primary means of winning.

Not sure about it being in reference to Zallow being more popular. Kao was the Jedi Battlemaster, so inevitably most Jedi are going to come into contact with him. Zallow had no such rank, and the reason he was defending the Jedi temple is because many other prominent Jedi were signing the peace treaty on Alderaan, so Zallow is hardly famous to begin with.

Zallow was one of the more prominent Jedi, and numerous Sith/Jedi witnessed his death, whereas Kao's death was only witnessed by Vindican (who was executed shortly afterwards) and felt in the Force by his apprentice.

I wouldn't call it negligible, either. The fact that there is a clear hierarchy of Malgus's opponents, and that Malgus is at the top of the hierarchy, deepens his dueling resume.

Ven doesn't have anything to suggest him as solidly more skilled than Kao. The difference is minimal.

And? There are plenty of beings with better feats than Jaina who lack that accolade.

Hardly. Most of them have some sort of similar accolade.

And this doesn't have anything to do with what I said. The point is that Jaina is clearly very skilled.

And it really is a silly quote considering both the Vong and Jacen have recognized Jaina as not being at the very highest tier of the Jedi of her day. That spot is reserved for the likes of Luke and Jacen/Caedus.

Jacen was long dead at the time of that quote, so he's irrelevant. And Luke was recognized by the quote. Again, it's Legacy era Luke, but it's still a quote, and as hyperbole as it may be, at the end of the day it's there to be accepted as proof of skill, not dismissed because of its unreliability. It's extremely evident that Jaina was intended to be an extremely skilled fencer, so whilst it's hyperbole which describes her, it's not an illegitimate quote, just as Palpatine being a "black hole of the Force" in Tyranus's eyes is not "unreliable". It serves its point of telling us just how potent it is.

He doesn't need unreliable quotes - he has comparable feats.

In other words, Jaina has better accolades, even if they're literal.

What's your point? Zallow fodderizing Sith among a group of 50 who were handpicked to sack the Jedi temple is a great feat. Kao's feat is also good. And lol @ me "refusing to accept" a point you've only just brought up in this very post.

I brought it up in my first post.

And I believe there's further descriptions of her fighting style noting that it's just very direct and brutal, which while different from the seven lightsaber forms, isn't particularly troublesome as a style itself.

The fact that it's not one of the conventional forms makes it more difficult to defend against, because Jedi are trained for and against the conventional lightsaber forms. Caedus was able to respond to it because of his own sheer skill, but he recognized its unorthodoxy all the same.

...Im still yet to see how Jaina's unorthodoxy could be comparable to Darach wielding a saberstaff/saber combination. She isn't really that unorthodox of a fighter aside from the fact she doesn't use the seven forms.

Darach's combination is a good showing of skill, but if you analyze what it actually is, it's similar to Jaina's in that it's not a conventional fighting form. Neither is Jaina's, in being a technique not taught to Jedi. Both are just unconventional forms, but you're just hellbent on ignoring Jaina's unorthodoxy. And it doesn't have to be on par with Darach's unorthodoxy to matter against Malgus.

What's ridiculous is trying to invent supplementary edges for a character in order to boost their chances of winning a fight.

LOL @ me inventing supplementary edges. Jaina not using a conventional form makes it less likely for people to be able to effectively respond to her form, and it makes it more difficult to analyze and respond to in general. It's a minor edge, but it's existent. Ignoring it and then saying I made it up is as ridiculous as it gets.

You're making an awfully large assumption regarding that Mandalorian's physicality, and just because he's wearing a helmet doesn't mean he wouldn't have felt the impact of a kick sending his brain rocking around in his skull. And Malgus kicking Adraas into a stone column hard enough to split it in half is enough to completely blow this feat away, so there goes your case.

They were trained to fight and kill Jedi, so if the Sith in the temple were good because they were handpicked to sack it, then no, I'm not making an awfully large assumption about anything.

I never said he wouldn't have felt the impact of the kick. Quit putting words in my mouth. The text outright states some of the kinetic force was transmitted through the helmet, but it's a good feat nonetheless.

Yes, it's much superior.

lol @ taking the abilities of other characters and applying them to Jaina. Obi-Wan is extremely well suited to dealing with powerful fighters, and Yoda is Palpatine's equal on all fronts by RotS and to claim otherwise would be silly.

Obi-Wan being well-suited to dealing with powerful fighters just relates to the outcome of their duels. In terms of sheer strength, he was matching Maul.

Of course Yoda is Palpatine's equal, since that was the case after he was portrayed in a fight with Palpatine which described him as an equal. His general feats of strength weren't on par with Malgus's either.

No, she hasn't. And it's not being overblown. All I've actually said regarding Malgus's strength is that over the course of the fight, his far greater strength would allow him to deal lasting damage to Jaina, whereas Jaina won't be slowing Malgus down with anything short of lightsaber injuries.

He's not dealing lasting damage throughout the entire fight, because Ven Zallow was able to defend against several of his strikes and make comebacks without strain. He was strained against some strikes, to be sure, but they involved Malgus being enraged as well.

"even calling on the Force to bolster the strength in his good arm" implies that he was diverting even more energy to his injured one.

No, it doesn't. At all. If you look at the quote in it's entirety, it's clearly just referencing that Jaina's blows were so forceful that despite Caedus's amplifications he was being strained.

Also, the quote above furthers the point that Luke was amping Jaina, unless you now want to claim that Jaina's strength is sufficient to nearly batter Caedus's lightsaber defence apart. She wasn't even capable of that in her second fight with him when he was in a far worse state than above, which again, makes it clear that Luke was amping her beyond what she's usually capable of.

Even provided that Luke was amping Jaina, if an amped Jaina was being able to nearly break Caedus's lightsaber defense through sheer force of her blows, than an unamped Jaina is at least loosely comparable to Caedus in physical strength, hence why I said she would be able to last against Malgus's physical strength without immense strain. In fact, Jaina's stamina is enough for her to fight Sith for days, IIRC.

More to the point of Caedus's injury, however - it's made clear in the quote I gave you about Caedus's power being far greater than Jaina's because of his ability to fight through injuries, and the quote above, that Caedus was required to divert extra energy to supplement his injuries. Him not being phased by the loss of an entire arm, and being stabbed through the stomach, is a joke. He may have appeared that way because of how much of a beast he is, but, it's a fact that the amount of blood loss and bodily damaged caused by those kinds of injuries can only be sustained through channelling your Force power.

I'm already aware that Caedus's power is far above Jaina's. It's also far above Malgus's.

Yes, of course it's sustained through channeling bodily Force power. But in Caedus's case, the channeling of Force power was not as extensive as it would be to others, hence why the injury was clearly not as severe. That's how it works.

You're right Nova. The physical drawbacks of having your arm cut off and a lightsaber put through your stomach would have been minor at best. It's not like Jacen was devoting much of his reserves to counter-act such grievous injuries or anything...

The text NEVERstated anything about "much of his reserves" being directed towards that. You just made it up. As Caedus's reserves are immense and the way he trains his body to function in spite of extreme pain (which he draws upon) and loss of blow flow, his devotions to blocking those injuries would not have to be extensive as other Jedi would be, which is my point. It was minor enough to have little impact on the fight from the outsider's perspective, hence why it is clearly not nearly as big of a deal as you make it out to be.

Your complete disregard for sections of source material you're supposed to be an expert on is astounding. All I had to do was read a respect thread to find out that Caedus's injuries required him to divert extra power to bolstering his physical resolve. It should be a no-brainer anyway, because regardless of who you are, those types of injuries are terrible for your body.

Of course the injuries are terrible. So what? As you get more and more powerful, the injuries become inherently less debilitating. When you reach Abeloth's stage, you're able to fight at similar levels even when several of your bodily functions are removed.

Caedus isn't comparable, but that's because he doesn't have that insane level of resiliency. All that matters is that he clearly was diverting power to bolster those injuries, but not to a tremendous extent because of the nature of his bodily training and pain tolerance, as well as how he channels the Force. So his diversion of the Force to protect himself against such injuries, are, as the text makes extremely clear, not a tremendous factor on the fight, which you've been making up this whole time to downplay the feat. You might also want to know that Jacen is extremely talented in Force Body, a technique which involves pushing your body beyond natural (and safe) limits, allowing you to live through otherwise fatal circumstances. So that's an explanation for why he isn't so horribly debilitated. Comparing such a master of Force Body to general Jedi who can only sustain their wounds, not push their body past their limits and actually ignore wounds just doesn't work. You can't compare the two.

That was written from Jaina's perspective.

It was written from the third-person author's perspective, and if Caedus was performing virtually the same after the injury as he was prior to the injury, even to an outsider, it's clear that the injury doesn't hinder him nearly as much as you're making it out to be. This is getting pretty ridiculous. If I'm fighting you and I injure you severely but you continue to fight on, and to me, it seems as if my injuries did little to harm you, then it's clear that you managed to largely ignore the extent of the injury because of your bodily prowess.

Bottom line - Jacen appeared to be performing just about the same as he was prior to the injuries. So it didn't hinder him passively very much, if at all.

Nope, he reacted to it and let it stay on his lightsaber. It began reaching past his lightsaber and burned Malgus himself but he just ignored it.

Alright.

Lol you and others were using the "before prime" argument far before I ever have

Doesn't change the fact that you love it.

And it's a fair point. Although what is also a fair point is pointing out that being able to hold a lightsaber up in front of lightning isn't really enough to demonstrate a considerable gap in combat speed.

And what's not a fair point is making up the opposition's argument for them. I said the speed edge is small, not considerable.

Not sure if I agree. Malgus perceiving blaster bolts in slow motion is clearly enough to indicate that his perception speed is negligibly close to hers.

It mostly just says he perceives it with clarity, not exactly slow-motion, but I fail to see how that feat compares in any sense.

Proof her arms after-images weren't also a by-product of Leia's head injury? And what are these other similar showings I'm unaware of? The only ones you cited for Alema in your Jaina thread was her moving with afterimages because Leia had a sore head, and making a shield out of her blade, which is a woeful speed feat considering everyone and their grandmother has accomplished it.

It was the heads only, not the arms. What similar showings?

Also, Alema being able to contend so well against Leia is good enough of a speed feat, so it's not woeful at all. Alema is more or less as fast as Malgus, and Jaina was noticeably faster.

Again, your inability to properly interpret how Caedus handled such terrible injuries is astounding. Caedus is still a "normal person" in that he will still feel the negative effects of missing an arm and being stabbed in the stomach. What sets him apart his ability to divert energy to replenish himself after such injuries, which takes away from his ability to augment himself and so on.

Except Caedus is not a "normal person". He doesn't have to sustain his injuries through Force-based acceleration healing or suppression, because he can simply propel his body beyond natural limits for the body and bypass injuries that would normally kill a person.

What sets him apart is the fact that he doesn't have to divert tremendous amounts of energy to sustain injuries like most people.

Not to mention missing a freaking arm definitely restricts your combative options, and to claim otherwise is a fools errand.

More like it's a fool's errand to go off on personal arbitrary interpretations instead of listening to what the text describes:

The loss of an arm did not seem to faze him. He simply turned to meet her attack...

The loss of an arm did not seem to faze him. He simply turned to meet her attack...

The loss of an arm did not seem to faze him. He simply turned to meet her attack...

The loss of an arm did not seem to faze him. He simply turned to meet her attack...

If it didn't seem to faze him, and he simply turned to meet the next attack and continue fighting normally, then he was clearly NOTtremendously hindered, which is your entire argument for having this feat as "barely above Malgus".

Your opinion of her changes rapidly, and that's due to just how subjective her showings against Caedus are.

If it's subjective, then at least my opinion still stands. You've been saying this whole time that I'm ignoring fact, fact which is self-declared.

At one point you had her as an even split with Maul, then within six days you changed that to her being able to beat RotJ Vader.

Different characters having different talents that are good against different opponents doesn't mean anything, and opinions change. And IIRC, at the time, I had RotJ Vader at around Maul's level only.

Now, Jaina is approaching Caedus's capabilities? Give me a break. The fact is she's below all of those aforementioned characters and her ability to last against Caedus was due to having massive advantages on her side.

No, she's not below them.

Based on what?

Based on Malgus's lack of abuse in the Force against aggressive fighters like Satele Shan.

Jaina's unorthodoxy is practically non-existent,

Because I'm sure this too, is non-existent:

His uncle had been using a new fighting style, one that he had never taught his students at the Jedi academy..

Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible

If it's a style you've never seen before, then you're going to be hard-pressed to defend against it. It's an extremely simple concept to grasp. The idea that it's non-existent is outrageous, and just because Caedus, a vastly more skilful character than Malgus, could analyze and respond to it, doesn't mean that it's non-existent in a fight against a far inferior opponent.

And with that, I'll probably be done with this thread unless your next response tempts me into coming back. We should more or less agree to disagree, which pretty much happens in every Legacy era character discussion we have.

No hard feelings, though :P

@i_like_swords:

Hardly a clear winner. I said Malgus would take a slight edge in my mind, and I'm representing Malgus on some points because I believe Jaina is being overrated when we're getting to the point where people are happy to pass her showings off against Caedus as negligibly close to how a non-circumstantial fight would play out.

Just joshing with you Swords, LAL. I saw that you didn't have a crystal clear winner in mind.

Are you mad because the Sword of the Jedi isn't as great as you once saw her, DC?

Please. Someone on Jaina's class isn't needed for Malgus; Kyle Katarn would do just fine. :P

@shootingnova: I'll reply soon, just got Evolve and plan to no-life it for the foreseeable future.

@dccomicsrule2011: Heh, I know, I know. I was as well. :P

@i_like_swords: These discussions are literally exhausting and annoying. It's probably better to agree to disagree, but if you'd like to continue, I'll wait for you.

I demand you both to continue.

Instigator tbh

@lamlam: Yeah, the popcorn company is probably making a lot of profit from our discussions.

Preach to the choir.

Well that sure took awhile to read.

Continue the debate. It not over !

Jaina sh*ts on him