Darth Krayt vs. ANH Darth Vader

The battle would ultimately be won via lightsaber combat since Vader and Krayt are not far off from each other in power, and in that case I'd give the win to Vader in a hard fight. Disregarding the "Kenobi case", early Dark Times Vader beat Celeste Morne with ease while arguably holding back (though of course this is debatable), and the latter was good enough to prevent herself from being dominated by Krayt, and was also able to defend herself from both Krayt and Maladi's lightning attacks. Notice that Krayt was in his prime in skill, whereas Vader wasn't, even as far as ANH goes. To be fair, I also remember something about Krayt being weakened in that instance, but I might be wrong. And concerning the Vader vs Ben Kenobi fight, the former was stated in more recent sources to be better than old Ben, and the latter being labelled as "still formidable" suggests that his decrease in skill was not that huge anyways.

As for speed, Krayt slaughtered four Imperial Knights (fully trained Jedi Knights according to sources), which is impressive and can be attributed to both skill and speed. Vader's speed feats however include blitzing a Jedi Knight and dodging other Jedi's attacks before even getting accustomed to his suit (that happened before Dark Lord if I remember well), moving faster than Aurra Sing, someone who is fast enough to dodge blaster fire from several Droidekas at very close range and keep up with/outclass TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon (both of whom could run as blurs and form shields out of their blades), moving faster than Ferus Olin could react (though this is sometimes viewed as a high-end feat), seemingly appearing out of nowhere, creating 6 afterimages of his blade, forming shields out of his blade, etc.

Wether you believe Krayt is faster than Vader or not, the latter should have no problem with the former's speed, especially considering that Wyrlokk (who is featless in this regard) managed to keep up with Reborn Krayt. My conclusion is obviously that speed won't be a decisive factor in this fight.

As far as Lightning goes, Krayt was powerful enough to kill many Rakhghouls with one burst of it as well as slay several Yuuzhan Vongs, a race of beings notable for their resistance to Force attacks, though I've also heard that they are strangely susceptible to this power. And since this was Krayt before his resurrection, which increased his power considerably, it can be assumed that his lightning became more powerful as well. Vader, however, has been able to tank Lightning from Starkiller, someone who is powerful enough to obliterate Stormtroopers with it, and block it with his lightsaber before even improving his suit to resist it. After insulating his suit, he was able to withstand a concentrated blast of Starkiller's Lightning , which did nothing but distract him for a moment, so I doubt Krayt's Lightning will be a deciding factor in this duel, though it would certainly be enough to give Vader trouble.

Ultimately, I'd give Vader the win for a very small majority: 6/10.

@i_like_swords The source you're referencing came out in 2002, after much of the EU, and it clearly states that Vader became "a far more formidable foe" after ANH, which = being far more skilled. There is no other logical explanation, because the passage obviously doesn't cover Force power (which wouldn't increase that much in just 3 years anyway, because Vader's potential is not that high) or physical strenght, and the source itself is about lightsaber combat only.

@zapan87: Could I see the source or be given an issue number?

@i_like_swords If you want the complete source I'm afraid I can't help you (though you should still find it on the internet), but this is the passage:

Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.

-- Insider 62: Fightsaber

The only other things that are addressed here are political power and Force mastery. The conclusion should be therefore obvious.

@i_like_swords: And I have refuted your horrible reaching''reasoning'' over and over again. Your only argument is that Krayt kept up with his skills because he killed several opponents after his fight with Kenobi, but the fact is you have no idea who he fought, if he exaggerated, what he killed the opponents with, what the circumstances were, and so on. I might as well argue that Kenobi protected Luke from Tuskens as a way of keeping up with his skills. Your entire argument is ultimately a double-standard that you're refusing to acknowledge. I'd hoped you wouldn't fall as low as DMB, but you have. Accept Bane'sKrayt's inferiority.

@lamlam:

Your only argument is that Krayt kept up with his skills because he killed several opponents after his fight with Kenobi,

Well, it's a pretty good way of doing it. Although I also mentioned that he performed some pretty great feats of skill, which you're now aware of, but we'll slip them under the carpet for the purpose of this debate, shall we?

but the fact is you have no idea who he fought

What criteria of opponent is it you believe Krayt needs to face in order to remember how to wield his lightsaber as effectively as usual?

if he exaggerated

"Countless" is inherently exaggerated, but it denotes a very large quantity, so I tend not to get hung up over it.

what he killed the opponents with

Presumably a blend of the tools he usually incorporates - lightsaber combat, lightning, TK, being the main methods.

what the circumstances were

I'm not sure this really matters. The issue is whether or not he kept up his ability to wield his lightsaber with skill in conjunction with receiving a massive boost to power and so on. Killing countless opponents, many with his lightsaber more likely than not, is a good way to keep muscle memory active.

I might as well argue that Kenobi protected Luke from Tuskens as a way of keeping up with his skills.

Based on what?

Your entire argument is ultimately a double-standard that you're refusing to acknowledge.

Not really, lol.

I'd hoped you wouldn't fall as low as DMB, but you have. Accept Bane'sKrayt's inferiority.

lol

@i_like_swords: Killing countless opponents, many with his lightsaber more likely than not, is a good way to keep muscle memory active.

Again, that's your assumption. I just read the passage. Krayt said it in a fit of rage and said that he had killed ''thousands'', which is obviously an exxageration. Regardless, using his lightsabers to kill his targets would be unlikely, since it was important for him to not reveal his past as a Jedi. And even being generous and concluding that he used lightsabers, killing simple bounties is hardly the same as actually sparring with a partner. And you forget that after being consumed by the Vong, he spent most of his time in stasis and almost only talked to Wyyrlok, since they were searching for a cure together. During that time, he definitely did not practice, since he was sick. When he killed the four Imperial Knights, he was tired because he had overextended his body.

@lamlam: Again, that's your assumption.

Nope, muscle memory is a big part of lightsaber combat, hence why Quinlan Vos was able to quickly familiarise himself with his lightsaber at the height of his amnesia (it even states muscle memory was kicking in to aid him). Although admittedly his telemetry doesn't hurt in a situation like that, but you get the point.

I just read the passage.

Admittedly someone should have done this earlier as to shorten the debate.

Krayt said it in a fit of rage and said that he had killed ''thousands'', which is obviously an exxageration. Regardless, using his lightsabers to kill his targets would be unlikely, since it was important for him to not reveal his past as a Jedi. And even being generous and concluding that he used lightsabers, killing simple bounties is hardly the same as actually sparring with a partner. And you forget that after being consumed by the Vong, he spent most of his time in stasis and almost only talked to Wyyrlok, since they were searching for a cure together. During that time, he definitely did not practice, since he was sick. When he killed the four Imperial Knights, he was tired because he had overextended his body.

And with this new information I am inclined to agree with you that Krayt could have been pretty rusty. Haven't read Legacy myself and I only hear and see good things pertaining to Krayt's dueling ability, so this never entered the equation for me. Maybe someone else who has read into the era could provide a better case for Krayt's lightsaber activity as a Sith Lord, heard a few talking about him training apprentices. I'll hang up the gloves for now, though.

With that said, I could give Vader the dueling edge for the moment, since my argument finalized around the notion that Krayt's skill could have only been improving since his fight with Kenobi, not decreasing or going stagnant.

@lamlam: When Krait was sick with the Vong implants he did best Cade, twice, as well as Wyyrlok in lightsaber combat did he not?

@i_like_swords: Nope, muscle memory is a big part of lightsaber combat, hence why Quinlan Vos was able to quickly familiarise himself with his lightsaber at the height of his amnesia (it even states muscle memory was kicking in to aid him). Although admittedly his telemetry doesn't hurt in a situation like that, but you get the point.

I meant about him using lightsabers more than not, which is why I said ''again''.

And with this new information I am inclined to agree with you that Krayt could have been pretty rusty.

Fair enough. I'll look for the source that said he oversaw most of trainings of his apprentices. Should be able to find it in a few minutes.

When Krait was sick with the Vong implants he did best Cade, twice, as well as Wyyrlok in lightsaber combat did he not?

He was even with Wyyrlok, and that was without the implants. The second time he fought Cade, he bested him through Dark Transfer and that was without the Vong implants also. I honestly can't remember the fight between Krayt and Cade when Krayt was sick.

@lamlam: So when he killed Wyyrlok, dual lightsaber a through the chest, (after his resurrection) they were even?

And wasn't Krayt implanted with the Vong seeds right after he left the temple from his practice of the ancient Sith teachings? Wouldn't that mean he always had the Vong implants throughout his time as a Sith? It seemed it just kept getting worse as he would confess to Wyyrlok before he was betrayed.

@theendgame: So when he killed Wyyrlok, dual lightsaber a through the chest, (after his resurrection) they were even?

Yes. Krayt won when Wyyrlok used Memory Walk and it appeared to work. However, Krayt tricked Wyyrlok and killed him before Wyyrlok could defend himself.

And yes, Krayt had the implants until he was reborn.

By the way, per the Legacy Campaign Guide, it mentions that Krayt simply ''oversees'' the Sith's trainings, not that he actually took part in them.

Althought I think Vader would put a good fight, in my opinion Krayt wins this duel.

Physical attributes: No one gets the edge.

Lightsaber skills: A slightly edge to Vader, however questionable since Krayt is a master duelist.

Force powers: Krayt. No doubt about that.

@lamlam: Well they were engaged in a duel with Krayt advancing on him. Looked one sided. I could be wrong though.

@sirfizwhiz: Learning from ancient Holocrons means nothing in terms of combative proficiency.

Cade never "dueled" Luke's ghost, and Luke wasn't even intent to brainwashing Cade or anything. He was intending to persuade Cade gently.

To be fair, Krayt struggled with Celeste Morne, while Vader wrecked her, mostly. The argument for Vader being a more skilled duelist does make sense, at the very least. And to be honest, I don't know why I forgot about that feat for Vader. If anything, I'd still put him above Krayt in lightsaber combat.

Also, Fightsaber came out in 2002, which isn't too old.

@shootingnova: True, but Celeste was affected by Murr when she fought Krayt, which is why I haven't used it as an argument.

@lamlam: She was affected in both instances.

Krayt's fight has a bit more negative circumstances, but not enough to bridge the disparity between their (his and Vader) respective performances against Celeste.

They dueled. Only Cade could not win, it was a Force Ghost and Luke at that.

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And learning from Holocrons would meant something I should say. I do believe Luke knoweldge in Lightsaber combat all comes from Holocrons. He only learn a little from Yoda and Obi Wan. The rest was Holocrons he found IIRC. So it should factor.

Regardless of Holocrons or not, thes Sith are taught and over saw by Krayt and the Wyyrlocks, as well a portion of them being former Jedi/Imperial Knights. Training and honing skills in100 years means alot to me.

@sirfizwhiz: Clearly no effort on Luke's part (he says as much) while Cade was enraged, and that was probably more symbolic than anything else. Living beings can't duel with Force spirits, unless the spirits actually inhabit physical bodies. Otherwise, interactions are purely mental/through the Force.

Luke's knowledge in combat never came all from holocrons. He studied basic techniques first, then learnt (indirectly) from Vader's technique, and also, IIRC, from Obi-Wan's journal.

Krayt overseeing training for long periods honestly doesn't mean anything. He's seeing the same thing over and over.

@shootingnova: Krayt overseeing training for long periods honestly doesn't mean anything. He's seeing the same thing over and over.

Pretty much. It's like saying a football manager becomes a better crosser of the ball because he tells the team how to play. Doesn't work like that.

Not entirely sure who wins anymore, since Krayt does have his own edges, but I'm pretty confident that Vader is the better swordsman, given his vastly superior performance against Celeste Morne. There were some circumstances in Krayt's fight which would elevate him slightly higher and prevent him from outright being destroyed by Vader, but he should still lose in a duel. Now, whether his other edges will make up for it is debatable. I'd say a case could be raised for either side, at least.

I think Vader

Sing run after she realized that she is no match for both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Sing's only specialty is using surprise attacks in mid-duel which she did there again, first she tried her second lightsaber on Qui-Gon as a surprise factor and failed, then she used her tail to distract them (if not she was losing to TPM Kenobi), and that's all, she kicked them and run. She is no where near can keep up with them without surprise factors. She is basically a fodder without element of surprise.

Vader didn't move faster than Aurra, he just caught her in the middle of her leapt movement which is more related with good positioning.

Later Vader used TK to stop her movement. The same book also says that Vader (as a droid) had problems with her acceleration.

Landing in a crouch, a feral expression on her face, she raced at him again, low this time. Her speed was startling: a droid would have been hard-pressed to match her acceleration. She dropped low to the floor and swung her right leg around in a powerful circle sweep. Her intent was to take his legs out from under him.

She might as well have been trying to cut down a bronzewood tree. At the last instant the Dark Lord thrust both hands downward toward the spinning bounty hunter. A profound surge in the Force rippled through the room. Guards posted at a distance in the hallway nearby were nearly knocked off their feet by it. But the strength of the emanation had not been directed at them.

Casually, as if inspecting a new exhibit that had been donated to the Imperial Museum, Vader walked around the now motionless figure on the floor. Aurra Sing lay on her back, unable to move. It was as if a giant weight pressed her down. Seething in impotent rage, she watched the Dark Lord pass through her field of vision and beyond. She felt, rather than saw, him make a negligent gesture, and she could move again. Sing reached up with one hand to clutch at her throat. Momentarily stilled, the fury that had boiled up within her began to return. She rose to her feet. Without even looking in her direction, Vader waved diffidently at his visitor.

Source : Street of Shadows

Darth Wyyrlok III being featless isn't an issue, we already know that Wyyrlok III was better duelist than all other Sith in their order sans Darth Krayt. And Krayt defeated both Wyyrlok III and Cade via using his superior skill, strength and speed. He would do the same to Vader.

Ok.

I thought it was Hplocrons he found over time? I understand he learned alot of Form 5 from his dad, some Form 1 and 3 from Obi Wan, and maybe Form 4 from hi time with yoda, but Luke I thought learned alot more from Holocrons he found over time. Obi Wan journal full of the other forms then?

Wyyrlock is far from featless.

Master of Sith Lore.

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All these Sith have shown some skill in Force Concealment, Force TK, and the knowledge to make and use Lightsabers under the teachings of Lord Andeddu. All are easily mind raped, and killed by Wyyrlock. A small army of ancient tradition Sith vs Wyyrlock.

Gallery

He is powerful in Force lightning. One shotting low level Sith easy.

Able to redirect and absorb powerful Force Lightning from Andeddu.

Gallery

Andeddu and Wyyrlock show off impressive force uses in their mental battle. Which the powerful and well known Sith Lord Andeddu was finally killed for all time.

@i_like_swords: don't buy it man. @zapan87: I like how you said Krayt was in his prime on the Morne fight. This is false. Krayt was plague and dying from the Vong Parasites, and became more powerful only after he healed himself of the parasites in Legacy War.

Nice try though to make it sound Vader is better by his fight with Morne with false context though.

@sirfizwhiz: I never said that Krayt was in his prime in power. I said that he was in his prime in skill and Krayt growing more powerful doesn't prove that he became a better duellist. Vader on the other hand easily beat Morne many years before ANH, so do the math.

@darkdefender: Well, I think it's safe to say that Krayt has superior force abilities than Vader. Main reason being the Dark Transfer, which is a trumph card. I'd argue that their TK is on same level. Krayt does have more force powers at his disposal. His force lighting is very strong. And, after his resurrection, this abilitiy has multiplied its power. Most argue that the force lightning would not make such difference in the fight, but I think it would.

In regard of their duel against Celeste Morne, it should be noted that Celeste was slightly stronger against Krayt than with Vader. How? Well, in her duel against Vader she had just been freed from her confinament in that Sith "box", which is kind of an advantage since she was "unprepared" for the combat. Another thing is that when she fought Vader, Murr had no real influence on her. However, when she faced Krayt, Murr was literally controlling her.

Facts in Vader's duel against her:

- Celeste had just been awakened.

-Celeste wasn't in Murr "influence"

-Murr stated that the only way she could defeat Vader was by realising him

-Vader dominated their duel with little effort

Facts on Krayt's duel:

-Krayt was arguably weaker since his duel with Cade

-Celeste was totally under Murr's control

-Murr stated that the only way she could win the duel was by realising him, which would make a big difference in the close of the match

-Celeste was able to subdue Krayt with the help of Azlyn Rae

-Celeste let Murr take control, which lead into Celeste earning some of Murr's dark side powers, such as force lightning.

-Celeste force lighting was very powerful, since it could literally fry both Krayt and Azlyn.

Their both duels against Celeste were very similar, with then taking some edge over Morne. However, the duels had totally different circumstances involving it. Darth Vader "won" his duel against Celeste, however Morne had just awaken and had no influence by Murr. On the other hand, Krayt "lost" his duel against Morne, but it wasn't just her pure power that defeated him. Krayt was weaker than before and still he could beat Celeste. He had to be back stabbed by Rae to Morne win. Plus, if she was knew how to use force lightning against Vader, this would bring him trouble.

Just wanted to post this as well.

Imperial Knights.

"Despite opinions to the contrary, Imperial Knights is every bit as capable in the use of Force as their Jedi Counterparts, though their skill has considerably more martial focus.

-

They are warriors first and foremost, not negotiators, and make no excuses for this fact.

-

Another Difference between Jedi and the Impwerial Knights is that the Imperial Knights train strictly for combat, not contemplation.

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Imperial Knights are among the most talented and dangerous Force users in the galaxy.

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From the start of their training until they reach full knighthood, the Imperial Knights learn how to use the Force to transform themselves into living weapons and shields."

- Legacy Era Campaign Guide

"Skilled in the art of lightsaber combat, the Imperial Knights use many of the same combat training techniques as the Jedi, and have learned to fight in many of the same lightsaber dueling styles. However, the Imperial Knights are also the masters of two unique lightsaber combat forms that place greater emphasis on teamwork the the individuals prowess. The more aggressive style, known as Praetoria Vonil, focuses on moving quickly and striking hard. The more defensive style, known as Praetoria Ishu, emphasizes protecting one's allies to allow them to find a openings in an opponent defenses.

-

The Imperial Knights were wear specially design crafted armor that uses material found in the armor of one of the greatest Imperial duelist of all time, Darth Vader. Where Darth Vader's armor was built to intimidate as well protect, the Imperial Knights wear armor that is purely functional. That, combined with their lightsaber and Cortisis gauntlets, leaves them constantly prepared for combat no matter where they are.

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The Imperial Knights are skilled with both the lightsaber and with the Force, and make extensive use of combat armor, including their special Cortisis gauntlets design to stop lightsaber attacks."

- Legacy Era Campaign Guide

So what have I showed thus far...

• Training in all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, and masters of 2 forms that excel in team work.
• Never training their force powers as philosophers, only in sever martial uses.
• Stated as the most dangerous force users in the galaxy.
• Wear lightsaber resistant armor like Vader, and lightsaber stopping gauntlets.

Thats impressive..... how well does a dying Krayt fair againt them?

This is Krayt dying from Vong Implants. This is Krayt at his weakest as a Sith lord.

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Here is Krayt in his weakest form decimating 4 Knights at a time. Knights who are all train to fight first and foremost, have lightsaber resistant gear, and 2 unknown to Krayt lightsaber forms dealing with their teamwork.

Even his state of weaken he took down the best Fodder in the galaxy at the time with ease. Not inlcuding his weaken state when fighting Morne, or his weaken state fighting Cade who he pretty much matched easy in their first battle. Or his weaken state when fighting Abeloth with Luke Skywalker.

Just saying.

@sirfizwhiz: I'm going with you.

Krayt >> Vader

@darkdefender:

- DT does really need major concentration. However, it's effects are simultaneously. So, if Krayt gets an opening and uses this technique, it's bye bye for Vader.

By the way, it should be noticed that Krayt was extremely skilled with this particular force ability, despite using it only once in combat.

- His skill with TK isn't fully showed, however we can presume it. Ex: He easily force pushed Cade (a Skywalker, anyway), destroyed a huge portion of the Sith Temple in Coruscant with a telekinetic blast, etc.

- Well, I'd argue that his force lightning was in the same level of Dooku's before his rebirth. After this event, I think his prowess with force lighting surpassed that of Darth Tyranus.

- Like I said before, I'd give a slightly edge to Vader as a lightsaber duelist. However, I have the feeling that if Celeste's lightning could fry two opponents at the same time, Vader suit would not been able to resist its power. But I still think that Vader would win against Celeste Morne even with her lightning.

@darkdefender: Wanted to add my two cents per say.

From what I've heard Dark Transfer takes major concentration and given Krayt and Vader's relatively similar physicals leaving himself open for any period of time probably isn't a wise decision as he's liable to get blitzed.

Krayt used this ability with no effort on Cade. Cade is very much on Vader's level truth be told.

You may know more about Krayt's TK then I do but as far as I know Krayt doesn't have any feats that put him on Vader's level when it comes to telekinesis.

Vader is far superior in TK, I think Krayts is enough to not get ragdolled.

I concur. His lightning is on a level equal or just below that of Galen or Dooku's which is extremely powerful and a force power Vader has had trouble with in the past with.

I agree here as well.

I agree that the Morne fight isn't a huge negative against Krayt as the circumstances were different but I do believe this puts Vader at an advantage skill wise if not physically. I don't believe Morne's lightning would have changed the outcome of the fight. Imo it would have been the same outcome though Vader would have a much harder time gaining victory.

There is much context to the Morne fight. Vader fought Morne on equal ground. Krayt fought Morne in a state of near death from being out of satsis, with Vong parasites eating him up from the inside, and everyuse of his powers hindered him more in the long run. HARDLY Ideal circumstances.

Krayt once healed of the parasites was top of his game.

One of my covert sources has informed me on some context regarding the two Celeste Morne fights.

With the Krayt/Morne fight:

• Krayt was in his weakest, soon to be dead, incarnation
• Krayt wasn't having any issues with Morne with the fight despite his crippled physical state, until Karness Muur intervened
• The version of Morne that Krayt fought was stronger than the one Vader fought, as in, Morne had spent a century learning to control Muur's power

With the Vader/Morne fight:

• Muur didn't intervene as much to help Morne as he had when she fought Krayt. Muur only helped her at the end of the fight with Vader.
• Celeste put up a fight against Vader as well, although apparently Vader was holding back.

Can't confirm nor deny the validity of these points, but there they are if they are true and some have just forgotten them. Someone should upload both of the full fights to an external image hoster like imgur and post them so we can actually get a correct view of the context.

@darkdefender: The Sith Temple feat is from the "Star Wars Legacy: War #6". It's also on their fight description in Legacy Book #3, I think.

@i_like_swords: I've also made a comment about that earlier. I'm almost sure that this points are valid.

@darkdefender: Agreed.

@darkdefender:

Galen is underrated here? Oh, that's new. :p

@sirfizwhiz: He learnt from a very extensive range of sources. Saying that he learnt it "all" from holocrons is just misleading.

Yes, Vader has a newer feat of literally Crushing AT-AT's. Not utterly, but it's still a very impressive feat. And Krayt's own telekinesis (by showings) isn't even comparable. It's mostly inference based on his other powers to judge his general power level.