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#151 Posted by kbroskywalker (13411 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66: I'd argue vader a bit better than caedus due to experience and skill mostly but yea, maul is in my opinion at best at kenobi's level and has quite a few showings that put even that standing as questionable(ex. v grevious, tkd by ventress, outdueled with brother's help, struggle with pre visla, taken down by bamboo jedi(i get he was skilled but he definitely isn't at rots kenobi or ti's level and a lightsaber to a baboo stick is like a machine gun to a knife)). I think jadus beats maul here as his teammates are useless

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#152 Posted by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

It's utterly ridiculous how fast Maul circle jerks throw the thread the other way.

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#153 Posted by kbroskywalker (13411 posts) - - Show Bio
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#154 Posted by ParagonNate (4639 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate said:

@darthduelist9: lmfao no he isn't. Who's he beaten? A bunch of featless padawans off screen with help......that's it. Ahsoka has at least managed to give named and established characters trouble as of TCW, Ren doesn't even have that to his name.

And this is another example of why the feats approach sucks. To really illustrate my point I'll pose you a question, you can answer it, and then I'll ask you another one:

Ventress vs Kylo, who wins?

Ventress. She has a far more established history in terms of pretty much everything. WE know who she trained with, what she's trained in, we've seen her go toe to toe with some of the best combatants the Jedi Order has ever produced (Kenobi, and Anakin) her displays of technical expertise and skill trounce anything Kylo has shown with a blade. Kylo has one, count it one, impressive TK showing to his name, stopping a blaster bolt. Immensely impressive certainly, especially the ease with which he did it. But that's all he has that's noteworthy at this time. Killing off Luke's Jedi trainees off screen and with the help of a half dozen of other combatants is no more a quantifiable showing than Knightfall is for Vader. In fact it's even less quantifiable. The old Order at least had an established training regime and minimum standards that each Jedi was required to meat in terms of what they were capable of, we have absolutely no idea what Luke was teaching his new generation of Jedi, or how he was going about teaching it. Heck we don't even know if they were armed when Ren attacked them, all we see is Ren stabbing one in the back then him standing amidst bodies with his Dark Side buddies (lol I rhymed). The only other thing that we know about him is that he has a ridiculously high pain tolerance, which isn't enough to say he beats Ventress.

My point is that we have no idea how that fight went down, with Luke's trainees that is, or even the quality of the people he killed as combatants, and seeing as it's his only real showing besides stopping the blaster bolt that doesn't leave us with a good gauge of where Kylo lies.

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#155 Edited by ParagonNate (4639 posts) - - Show Bio

@nope111 said:
@paragonnate said:

@darthduelist9: lmfao no he isn't. Who's he beaten? A bunch of featless padawans off screen with help......that's it. Ahsoka has at least managed to give named and established characters trouble as of TCW, Ren doesn't even have that to his name.

He probably killed some jedi knights at the academy too...

People really underrate him. He got shot by a bowcaster to a stomach a gun which is considered a direct competitor to disruptor rifles (ya know...the guns that violently Rip your flesh apart before disintegrating you)

Even then he still matched a padawan level fighter with an AMP.

Kylo is also one of the fastest users of force speed we have seen on screen yet except for anakin in episode 2 and 3. He is atleast as fast as a car based on his feats with it.

He literally passed rey and finn and ambushed them even though he was MUCH much further behind originally and they had a nice exit while he had to exit through a recently blown up structure and catch them.

What Jedi Knights? Luke's trainees? The people who's training we have absolutely no idea what it entailed? Those were Jedi Knights? No.

I agree people underrate him, but I don't like it when people throw out 'maybes' and 'he might be' and 'it could possibly be like this' . We don't know so we can't say for sure....yet.

Padawan level fighter? Rey? The 'I only just realized I'm Force sensitive all of 20 minutes ago and have been living in a desert junkyard beating up thugs with a metal stick' Rey? Yeah no Padawan she is not.

No Caption Provided

This kid's name is Zett, he's a Padawan of the Jedi Order who was in the temple during Knightfall. Here is his sole showing of him absolutely fodderizing full grown men in full combat gear all of whom are veterans of the worst battles of the Clone Wars. Please note he does with with far greater ease than Rey deals with her opponents on Jakku. Beating battle hardened vets in full combat gear>>>beating up a couple of thugs.

He's fast yes, very fast. It's especially impressive since he did it while wounded.

Look. I don't hate Kylo like some people, he was actually one of the better parts of the movie for me, and I don't think he's weak. I just don't want to place him to high on the pedestal when all we have from him is one very circumstance laden fight.

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#156 Edited by Wolfrazer (16380 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: You know what I just realized in that gif? Zett legit blocks a point blank blaster shot with ridiculously ease before cutting down the 3rd Clone. That's pretty ridiculous given Legends canon and the speed of blaster shots.

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#157 Posted by kbroskywalker (13411 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: to be fair if rey is a skywalker, her innate aility might put her well above most padawans, skywalkers are the force's children

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#158 Edited by RedHeathen (2247 posts) - - Show Bio

it looks like people who put down ren haven't read any of the books. he is powerful. powerful but young, and more training is needed.

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#159 Posted by RedHeathen (2247 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, again, I'm gonna go ahead and say Thanaton or those Dark Council members aren't worthy of being Sidious' apprentice and carrying on a far more advanced and successful Sith Order than their own. But to each their own.

^^^ that is an excellent point. what we know:

first, fact file does say, and not out of context, that bane is the most powerful sith in the history of the sith.

second, from multiple sources, sidious, 1000 years after bane, is the most powerful sith in the history of the sith.

regardless of #1, we know sids is the most powerful ever, and he chose maul to be his apprentice. people can argue all they want to about sids never intended maul to replace him, but he never intended for anyone to replace him, even vader. vader had to die in order to kill sidious. the fact remains that sidious chooses very powerful force users to become his apprentices. granted, there were really only three and he tried for luke to be the fourth, but look at the level of force users we're talking about.

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#160 Edited by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: Luke himself was trained to be a Jedi Knight by Yoda, the grandmaster of the PT Jedi Order, claiming that this Luke (+ knowledge he gained studying the old Jedi Order) can't train characters to 'Knight level' is contradicting.

PS: The problem with Zett is that he's wielding a far more lethal weapon then Rey on Jakku.

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#161 Edited by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: Okay. Now:

Kylo Ren vs Ventress. Both have been shot directly in the stomach by Chewbacca's bowcaster, which can annihilate stone and wipe out groups of stormtroopers. Who wins?

To me personally, going by what we know for sure about the characters, Ventress now has a hole in her stomach, but I'm curious about your take on it.

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#162 Posted by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this dude seriously still breathing?

Maul vs Valkorion. One has drained an entire planet of life at only a fraction of his power, while the other has been disposed of by a padawan, has trouble against the odd nightsister and lacks utility of traditional sith abilities - lightning.

However, according to 'Swords New method of scaling' Maul is more powerful than all the ancients, because he benefits from a 'Rule of two Power Scale' that might include him, but probably doesn't.

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#163 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#164 Edited by Wolfrazer (16380 posts) - - Show Bio
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#165 Edited by Nope111 (679 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate said:
@nope111 said:
@paragonnate said:

@darthduelist9: lmfao no he isn't. Who's he beaten? A bunch of featless padawans off screen with help......that's it. Ahsoka has at least managed to give named and established characters trouble as of TCW, Ren doesn't even have that to his name.

He probably killed some jedi knights at the academy too...

People really underrate him. He got shot by a bowcaster to a stomach a gun which is considered a direct competitor to disruptor rifles (ya know...the guns that violently Rip your flesh apart before disintegrating you)

Even then he still matched a padawan level fighter with an AMP.

Kylo is also one of the fastest users of force speed we have seen on screen yet except for anakin in episode 2 and 3. He is atleast as fast as a car based on his feats with it.

He literally passed rey and finn and ambushed them even though he was MUCH much further behind originally and they had a nice exit while he had to exit through a recently blown up structure and catch them.

What Jedi Knights? Luke's trainees? The people who's training we have absolutely no idea what it entailed? Those were Jedi Knights? No.

I agree people underrate him, but I don't like it when people throw out 'maybes' and 'he might be' and 'it could possibly be like this' . We don't know so we can't say for sure....yet.

Padawan level fighter? Rey? The 'I only just realized I'm Force sensitive all of 20 minutes ago and have been living in a desert junkyard beating up thugs with a metal stick' Rey? Yeah no Padawan she is not.

No Caption Provided

This kid's name is Zett, he's a Padawan of the Jedi Order who was in the temple during Knightfall. Here is his sole showing of him absolutely fodderizing full grown men in full combat gear all of whom are veterans of the worst battles of the Clone Wars. Please note he does with with far greater ease than Rey deals with her opponents on Jakku. Beating battle hardened vets in full combat gear>>>beating up a couple of thugs.

He's fast yes, very fast. It's especially impressive since he did it while wounded.

Look. I don't hate Kylo like some people, he was actually one of the better parts of the movie for me, and I don't think he's weak. I just don't want to place him to high on the pedestal when all we have from him is one very circumstance laden fight.

That kid would wreck current maul...

Im talking about a reasonably padawan level fighter. She would give Ezra problems.

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#166 Posted by Wolfrazer (16380 posts) - - Show Bio

@nope111: Current Ezra? Doubtful. That guy has stepped up.

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#167 Edited by Nope111 (679 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer said:

@nope111: Current Ezra? Doubtful. That guy has stepped up.

Nah. Overhyped.

Kanan is the one who is starting to become more and more OP somehow... He is easily above the inquisitors now days.

Ezra would have issues with Rey. He gets nearly killed everytime he gets into a duel...

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#168 Edited by Wolfrazer (16380 posts) - - Show Bio

@nope111: He did pretty well the 2nd Season against the Inquisitors in the last few episodes, so not sure he'd have too much trouble against Rey.

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#169 Posted by Nope111 (679 posts) - - Show Bio

@nope111: He did pretty well the 2nd Season against the Inquisitors in the last few episodes, so not sure he'd have too much trouble against Rey.

Hes a goofy fighter and his morals will almost certainly make this a tough one.

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#170 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

Ant, honestly mate. Your just as bad.

You brought light to this quote with blatant fanatical intentions, hoping there'd be a 'new found appreciation' for Revan, as the primary stakeholder for Bane's Sith academia. The reaction wasn't what you expected, and then came the back-tracking. I don't see how this is much different from ILS' and his nofeats.txt, so that Maul can get a leg-up over objectively stronger characters. Nonetheless, please continue basking in triumph for discrediting a quote introduced by you.

An hero.

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#171 Posted by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

Ant, honestly mate. Your just as bad.

You brought light to this quote with blatant fanatical intentions, hoping there'd be a 'new found appreciation' for Revan, as the primary stakeholder for Bane's Sith academia. The reaction wasn't what you expected, and then came the back-tracking. I don't see how this is much different from ILS' and his nofeats.txt, so that Maul can get a leg-up over objectively stronger characters. Nonetheless, please continue basking in triumph for discrediting a quote introduced by you.

An hero.

Do you find it difficult to make friends?

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#172 Posted by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

Do you find it difficult to make friends?

Yes, it's very hard. I have only my Darth Maul Vibrator to keep me company at night.

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#173 Posted by kbroskywalker (13411 posts) - - Show Bio

@uchiha_macho: bro, you need a cyciatrist

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"Tell me, How did that make you feel"?

Also if you want you can flag i like swords for insulting you

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#174 Edited by ParagonNate (4639 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

@paragonnate: Okay. Now:

Kylo Ren vs Ventress. Both have been shot directly in the stomach by Chewbacca's bowcaster, which can annihilate stone and wipe out groups of stormtroopers. Who wins?

To me personally, going by what we know for sure about the characters, Ventress now has a hole in her stomach, but I'm curious about your take on it.

Sorry for the (very) late response. But life happens. Anyway.

From what we know of both the characters then Ventress would be dead, seeing as she doesn't have the showings to say that she would survive something like that. Which is irrelevant when looking at her combat skills seeings as her entire combat style revolves around not getting hit in the first place, as does most other Force users.

On the topic of Ren's skill level let me ask you a question. IT may seem irrelevant bust just stick with me here. Have you ever seen the film The Princess Bride?

If not I highly recommend it however I'm getting sidetracked. Anyways, in the film one of the characters, named Inigo, has a similar feat to what Ren pulled off, operating and fighting while severely wounded. As seen here. The video is set to start at the relevant bit.

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As you can see Inigo, the guy in brown, is clearly skilled, as he is able to defeat Count Rugen, the guy in gray, despite multiple deep stab wounds and severe blood loss. However this alone doesn't necessarily make him a master swordsman, it merely shows how far above Rugen Inigo is and displays his ability to operate while injured and compensate for those injuries while fighting. What makes Inigo a master swordsman are the following moments from earlier in the film.

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Here he displays his impressive knowledge of various fencing techniques and is capable of recognizing and countering the techniques use by the Man in Black. He's also stated to have been studying swordplay for years and the above scene backs that up, solidifying it so that the statement has more weight as we can actually see that the studying has paid off.

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The statement for the length of time he has trained can be found here.

Now even then I wouldn't be sure where to place Inigo as a swordsman, as all of the above scenes prove is that Right Handed Man in Black>Right Handed Inigo>Left Handed Man in Black>Left Handed Inigo>Wounded Inigo>>>>>Count Rugen. We still aren't sure where to place these characters as swordsman in comparison to common fighters however that obstacle is solved by the following 'fight'.

Video starts at the relevant bit.

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Seeing as how Inigo casually deals with four trained soldiers wearing chainmail in seconds, I'd say that he's been established as being above the common sword swinger. See what I'm getting at? Any one of those showings on there own would be nice, but what really puts Inigo up there as a swordsman is all of those showings combined. They support each other and establish Inigo as a highly skilled combatant.

Ren has one showing that simply isn't enough to make a call on as to where he fits with other combatants. Clearly he's at the bare minimum a trained and moderately competent combatant seeing as he was capable of operating while heavily wounded. But we just don't have enough to know where he lies compared to others.....yet. Give him another movie, maybe a novel or a comic series, let him get built up and established and then start saying he's at X characters level. It's frustrating for me because I actually like the concept of Ren and am certain that he's likely an excellent fighter, and it could have all been solved by having him step into either of the two larger battles that took place during the film and wiping out some other fighters. Preferably with contemptuous ease and with excessive brutality.

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#175 Posted by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate:

From what we know of both the characters then Ventress would be dead, seeing as she doesn't have the showings to say that she would survive something like that. Which is irrelevant when looking at her combat skills seeings as her entire combat style revolves around not getting hit in the first place, as does most other Force users.

Cool.

Two things to note: It's one's strength in the Force that dictates their ability to survive such injuries, as indicated by the fact Maul surviving being cut in half is attributed to his strength in the Dark Side in every source that talks about it. Secondly, it's one's strength in the Force that mainly dictates how great of a duelist they are.

Even if you want to argue that Ventress is better, Kylo is irrefutably looking much less pathetic now.

On the topic of Ren's skill level let me ask you a question. IT may seem irrelevant bust just stick with me here. Have you ever seen the film The Princess Bride?

It is irrelevant... this universe has nothing to do with Star Wars.

Ren has one showing that simply isn't enough to make a call on as to where he fits with other combatants

Bingo. But that goes both ways: we don't know if he's great or if he's shit relevant to A, B or Z until we actually get some kind of scale. The point of me pointing out that the blaster Kylo tanked would put a hole in Ventress is that you can't draw a real conclusion yet.

Give him another movie, maybe a novel or a comic series, let him get built up and established and then start saying he's at X characters level.

It's not his lack of feats that's the issue, as we discussed earlier with him tanking something that would oneshot Ventress. It's that we don't know where he stands yet. My point is that feats are arbitrary and don't give us any real sense of scale further than how we interpret them.

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#176 Posted by ParagonNate (4639 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

Cool.

Two things to note: It's one's strength in the Force that dictates their ability to survive such injuries, as indicated by the fact Maul surviving being cut in half is attributed to his strength in the Dark Side in every source that talks about it. Secondly, it's one's strength in the Force that mainly dictates how great of a duelist they are.

Even if you want to argue that Ventress is better, Kylo is irrefutably looking much less pathetic now.

A person's strength in the Force doesn't dictate how good of a duelist they are. It helps certainly, but it isn't the end all be all for one's skill as a swordsman. Heck Pre Vizla wasn't Force sensitive and he was capable of giving high tier swordsman headaches. He was never going to win certainly, but he wasn't someone they could simply shrug off either.

I don't have to argue that she's better than Kylo as a combatant. She factually is his superior at this point and time, until further evidence and showings are provided by Disney for Kylo. If you want to play the strength in the Dark Side card then Ventress had grown strong enough in the Dark Side that Sidious considered her a potential threat. And her not having a showing of surviving extreme injuries isn't a knock on her, it's to her credit that she's never been in a position where she would have to rely on a desperate gamble like that.

It is irrelevant... this universe has nothing to do with Star Wars.

So, you didn't bother reading everything I wrote.....got it. Because if you had then you would know that Inigo wasn't really the point of those videos, it was me just using the first example that came to mind in order to demonstrate my point. I could pull similar examples from nearly any number of characters from nearly any fictional universe and my point would still stand, regardless of the fact that they aren't from Star Wars. A point you didn't respond to I might add.

Bingo. But that goes both ways: we don't know if he's great or if he's shit relevant to A, B or Z until we actually get some kind of scale. The point of me pointing out that the blaster Kylo tanked would put a hole in Ventress is that you can't draw a real conclusion yet.

Exactly, let's wait and see either way. If he turns out to be Sidious MK 2 or whether he'd be obliterated by Ezra, only time (and more showings) will tell.

It's not his lack of feats that's the issue, as we discussed earlier with him tanking something that would oneshot Ventress. It's that we don't know where he stands yet. My point is that feats are arbitrary and don't give us any real sense of scale further than how we interpret them.

It's a solid showing of durability and pain tolerance, it's not conclusive evidence that he's her superior as a combatant, because it's more than just how big of a hit you can take. Some feats are arbitrary, I agree, however some aren't. If character A says he can do something then proceeds to do what he said he could exactly as he said he could I'd say that's fairly unarguable. If character A beats character B early on in B's career, then B goes and receives training and later on beats A soundly then the logical conclusion is that B became better than A through increasing his skill.

Look, I'm not sure where this new direction of yours is coming from but I don't think you're going to say the rest of the Vine....no offense.

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#177 Edited by Wolfrazer (16380 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate said:

@i_like_swords:

Heck Pre Vizla wasn't Force sensitive and he was capable of giving high tier swordsman headaches.

Ehh..wouldn't go that far. Far as strict sword, he wasn't that great against anyone. He had to use all his weaponry just to even have something. Obi-Wan dominated him and Obi-Wan didn't even really strike back he just let Vizsla attack him, Maul was putting on a show and Ahsoka he wasn't really doing that much better than her.

All of his weaponry is what makes him an opponent, not strictly his blade skills as he always uses his other weapons/gadgets in conjunction with the Darksaber.

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#178 Edited by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate:

A person's strength in the Force doesn't dictate how good of a duelist they are. It helps certainly, but it isn't the end all be all for one's skill as a swordsman. Heck Pre Vizla wasn't Force sensitive and he was capable of giving high tier swordsman headaches. He was never going to win certainly, but he wasn't someone they could simply shrug off either.

Uh, nah. In every source, including the movies, the Force is hailed as the most important factor in any kind of combat, which is pretty self-evident from the fact that the most skilled, most naturally able and quickly advancing duelists also coincidentally happen to be very strong in the Force. Hence why Maul made a mockery of two Jedi older than him (Jinn by many a decade), or why Anakin caught up to and far exceeded Dooku in his twenties.

Viszla is insanely skilled, but if you read Shadow Conspiracy it kind of confirms my point. The book attributes Vizsla's loss directly to him not having the Force to call on.

In any case, this deviates from the point.

I don't have to argue that she's better than Kylo as a combatant. She factually is his superior at this point and time, until further evidence and showings are provided by Disney for Kylo.

Oh, so have you got a factual statement telling us Ventress > Kylo? I'd love to see it. Since, you know, proclaiming something is factual simply because there's a perceived lack of evidence to the contrary is a logical bomb scare.

If you want to play the strength in the Dark Side card then Ventress had grown strong enough in the Dark Side that Sidious considered her a potential threat.

And her not having a showing of surviving extreme injuries isn't a knock on her, it's to her credit that she's never been in a position where she would have to rely on a desperate gamble like that.

Sure, she had the potential to be a problem for Sidious alongside Dooku. How this is meant to be quantifiable relative to Kylo is for you to explain, though, because from where I'm sitting, it's not.

You don't get to have it both ways. According to your own logic, since we haven't seen Ventress survive a rock-obliterating bowcaster to the stomach, she's factually incapable of it. Kylo is. Do the math.

So, you didn't bother reading everything I wrote.....got it.

I skimmed it, but I got your overarching point, which was:

"Ren has one showing that simply isn't enough to make a call on as to where he fits with other combatants."

And I sort of agree, though someone only having one showing doesn't necessarily mean we can't use them for comparison. It just requires more critical thinking on our part. What I don't agree with is proclaiming that Kylo sucks/can't do something because we haven't seen it yet or we don't know. That isn't logical.

Look, I'm not sure where this new direction of yours is coming from but I don't think you're going to say the rest of the Vine....no offense.

None taken... this isn't really a new direction having said that. It's very basic logic. Feats, as a means of evidence, are your interpretation of material, not fact. You can make a great argument using feats, but it always be rendered an interpretation. Apparently recognizing that makes you a black sheep.

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#179 Posted by Wolfrazer (16380 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder how many heads are gonna turn on Kylo in the next movie, when there's no circumstances surrounding a duel. Or well I'd imagine there won't be.

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#180 Posted by ParagonNate (4639 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Uh, nah. In every source, including the movies, the Force is hailed as the most important factor in any kind of combat, which is pretty self-evident from the fact that the most skilled, most naturally able and quickly advancing duelists also coincidentally happen to be very strong in the Force. Hence why Maul made a mockery of two Jedi older than him (Jinn by many a decade), or why Anakin caught up to and far exceeded Dooku in his twenties.

You misunderstand, I'm not saying that the Force doesn't play a role in combat, it's blatantly obvious that it does. However I'm saying that it isn't the sole aspect of combat for a Force sensitive. The two things go hand in hand. Anakin became as good as he did as fast as he did thanks to his strong connection to the Force, but ask yourself two questions. What allowed Anakin to become so skilled so quickly? His strength in the Force, as you said it's pretty much a prerequisite. How did Anakin become so skilled so quickly? Hours upon hours of training, practice, and experience. He just didn't magically get skilled out of nowhere because he was strong with the Force. Kylo has one of the two, and while they go hand in hand you can not substitute one for the other. We can get a good deal of leeway and wiggle room if a character has decent showings of skill along with excellent showings of power, but sadly Kylo has nothing against anyone who could be used as a measurement leaving us in a bizarre gray area.

Viszla is insanely skilled, but if you read Shadow Conspiracy it kind of confirms my point. The book attributes Vizsla's loss directly to him not having the Force to call on.

My point was to display that even without being Force sensitive Vizla had obtained a rather impressive modicum of skill, proving that strength in the Force isn't the only factor in obtaining skill as a swordsman.

Oh, so have you got a factual statement telling us Ventress > Kylo? I'd love to see it. Since, you know, proclaiming something is factual simply because there's a perceived lack of evidence to the contrary is a logical bomb scare.

Yeah it's called she has showings and he doesn't. Also I haven't 'perceived' a lack of evidence, there is no evidence to support the idea that he is her superior as a combatant, if there is I'll gladly wait for you to post it. Actual quotes, scans, video clips and so on. Not your conjecture based purely off of speculation of what might be, but what he has actually shown.

On the subject of their respective accolades, the best Kylo has is "His training is not complete." from Snoke. I'd say Ventress' accolade from Sidious blows that out of the water handily.

Sure, she had the potential to be a problem for Sidious alongside Dooku. How this is meant to be quantifiable relative to Kylo is for you to explain, though, because from where I'm sitting, it's not.

She may not have tanked a blaster bolt but surviving extreme trauma isn't really a required feat to show that someone is strong with the Force or the Dark Side. Sidious has no such feat, does that make him weaker than those that have them? No. Yoda has no such feat, does that make him weaker than those that have them? No. Like you said it's always been a sign that the survivor is strong with the Dark Side, but it isn't a perquisite for joining the club and it never has been. I'll use an example, this time actually from SW just for you. I'll go out on a limb and assume that you've played (or at least read up on) SW:TOR, the Star Wars MMO. In the Sith Warrior story line you come across another apprentice of Darth Baras, Lord Draahg who claims to have been, among other things, gutted, bled dry, and jettisoned into empty space and survived such wounds and trauma that would certainly killed a normal man. He's at least Kylo's equal if not superior in the amount of punishment he's lived through, indicating clearly his strength with the Dark Side. Yet the Player Character defeats him, twice mind you, despite not having such a showing. Out duels Draahg both times they fight, the first time leaving him to burn to death and the second time (after Draahg comes back as a cyborg and even stronger) finishes him with a saber strike to make sure that it sticks that time. The Wrath beat Draahg and proved that they were stronger, both as a duelist and in the Force, despite Draahg dwarfing him in the type of showing you are focusing so much on. Why can't Ventress be stronger than Kylo when she lacks such a showing, especially when she dwarfs him in every other displayed category?

You don't get to have it both ways. According to your own logic, since we haven't seen Ventress survive a rock-obliterating bowcaster to the stomach, she's factually incapable of it. Kylo is. Do the math.

You would have a point here, if I hadn't already said the same thing myself. Ventress doesn't have such a showing, therefor she can't do it.

I skimmed it, but I got your overarching point, which was:

"Ren has one showing that simply isn't enough to make a call on as to where he fits with other combatants."

And I sort of agree, though someone only having one showing doesn't necessarily mean we can't use them for comparison. It just requires more critical thinking on our part. What I don't agree with is proclaiming that Kylo sucks/can't do something because we haven't seen it yet or we don't know. That isn't logical.

True one showing (at least a good one) can let us get somewhere, the trouble is that Kylo's showing (while fantastic) simply doesn't cover all of the required areas.

Alright, go ahead and quote me saying Kylo sucks, or that he can't do lightsaber combat. Go ahead, I'll wait. I've never said that and never will. In this very thread I've said that I like him as a character and said that I firmly believe that he is a competent combatant that was merely dealt a bad hand. Is it somehow less logical than claiming that someone who's been in all of one serious duel (that we have seen) is somehow a peer of one of the best swordsman (swordswoman?) of the Clone Wars? You're going to have to explain that one to me.

None taken... this isn't really a new direction having said that. It's very basic logic. Feats, as a means of evidence, are your interpretation of material, not fact. You can make a great argument using feats, but it always be rendered an interpretation. Apparently recognizing that makes you a black sheep.

Well yeah, feats can get wishy washy, but a good feat, the kind that people should use, leaves little room for interpretation and only the most diehard fanboys will even attempt to downplay it. Like I remember one diehard Trek fan attempting to claim that Alderaan must be hollow because clearly the Empire can't really build planet busting superweapons and are just BSing everyone.......explain that to me. All feats can be interpreted in a certain way, I think everyone on this board realizes that, I certainly do. But to shrug them away entirely? They are still our best avenue of seeing what characters are capable of, inherent wishy washyness and all. Gotta take the good with the bad I suppose.

Sorry for the late response.

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#181 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2340 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless they immediately resort to ultra-power abuse, Jadus lolstomps Kylo & Rey who are irrelevent to the outcome of the duel. Jadus beats Maul after a difficult fight, assuming that he too does not power abuse.

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#182 Posted by Erkan12 (8451 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul solos this scrub.

Spite thread.

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#183 Posted by KeenCraft (825 posts) - - Show Bio

Jadus godstomps

Kylo Ren and Rey

Then Maul wins

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#184 Posted by WollfMyth209 (17027 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul solos.

Online
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#185 Posted by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

Jadus scales from Malgus who is most definitely above Maul. He's also got telekinesis, barrier feats and mid-combat teleportation feats that really just makes this spite. Maul's means of winning is via augmentation and combat skill. But that's just not viable against Jadus who can casually teleport and attack simultaneously.

In other words, Jadus is almost perfectly suited for a melee combatant.

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#186 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2528 posts) - - Show Bio

what if Jadus Force pushes Maul?

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#187 Posted by NiteLite (2722 posts) - - Show Bio

Team.

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#188 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2528 posts) - - Show Bio

Jadus can teleport though

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#189 Posted by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

OCW and TFU have no shortage of absurd feats that Maul scales above thanks to his relative placement in the PT hierarchy. Teleportation didn't help Jadus win against a non-Force user, in fact he tucked his tail between his legs and left when it came down to it. Emphatic victory for Maul while Kylo and Rey cheer him on from the sidelines.

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#190 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2528 posts) - - Show Bio

What if Jadus inflicts pain on maul with his mere presence

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#191 Posted by BreakOfDawn (2486 posts) - - Show Bio

Jadus might be able to take Ren and Rey in a great fight. However, he loses to Maul, who's not only far more powerful featwise but easily more skilled.

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#192 Posted by marvelfan1992 (2847 posts) - - Show Bio

good lord i just read the thread from the start and it's a fucking clown-fiesta lmaoooo

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#193 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul one shots this clown.

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#194 Posted by Richard96 (5824 posts) - - Show Bio

What kind of horrible mismatch is this? Jadus had trouble with non-force sensitives. He gets shitstomped here.

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#195 Posted by KeenCraft (825 posts) - - Show Bio

what if Jadus Force pushes Maul?

Jadus can teleport though

What if Jadus inflicts pain on maul with his mere presence

No counters for this?

Feats for Maul tanking Force Painful Presence Infliction??

Feats for Maul being able to bust through Jadus' Insectoid Clitoris Helmet?

CV is filled with people that can't comprehend logic. Jadus stomps via Force Painful Presence Infliction

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#196 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2528 posts) - - Show Bio

@keencraft: Jadus is from TOR. How can Maul compete?

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#197 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2528 posts) - - Show Bio

Feats for Maul being able to bust through Jadus' Insectoid Clitoris Helmet?

lmao

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#198 Posted by RedHeathen (2247 posts) - - Show Bio

@keencraft: Jadus is from TOR. How can Maul compete?

Something along the lines of Maul is apprentice to Sidious, the most powerful...blah, blah, blah. Maul is one of the most ______________ (fill in the blank).

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#199 Posted by KeenCraft (825 posts) - - Show Bio

@keencraft: Jadus is from TOR. How can Maul compete?

He can't. He should just become Jadus' apprentice or commit Harakiri out of humiliation.

@dawn_of_ages said:

@keencraft: Jadus is from TOR. How can Maul compete?

Something along the lines of Maul is apprentice to Sidious, the most powerful...blah, blah, blah. Maul is one of the most ______________ (fill in the blank).

See, @dawn_of_ages ? This is why we don't listen to Sheevites like @redheathen

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#200 Posted by RedHeathen (2247 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:

@keencraft: Jadus is from TOR. How can Maul compete?

He can't. He should just become Jadus' apprentice or commit Harakiri out of humiliation.

@redheathen said:
@dawn_of_ages said:

@keencraft: Jadus is from TOR. How can Maul compete?

Something along the lines of Maul is apprentice to Sidious, the most powerful...blah, blah, blah. Maul is one of the most ______________ (fill in the blank).

See, @dawn_of_ages ? This is why we don't listen to Sheevites like @redheathen

because LOGIKX!