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#101 Edited by Pierpat (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

@pierpat: I have a couple of points to make about that:

Just because something has only been said or happened once, opposed to multiple times, doesn't make it any less credible a source. That kind of logic bites you in the ass when you're trying to use a feat/statement that is isolated, as you'll probably find out.

Here's the thing with Vitiate: this Bane quote does indeed pre-date Vitiate's own accolades, as well as Vitiate's existence. So Vitiate is probably better than Bane because he has his own accolades. That said, I still need to determine if the source of those accolades are in or out of universe. They come from the TOR Encyclopedia, which people argue is era-dependant, written within the context of the TOR era alone. But regardless of that, Bane's quote still applies to every Sith who isn't Vitiate. They don't suddenly become superior to him because one new character is. It simply relegates Bane below Vitiate.

I've spoken at length about why your personal interpretation of a feat is an inferior means of analysis than taking a factual statement and applying it's meaning, but I also respect that the majority of people are going to use feats. I personally don't think feats are useless, just unreliable, so I'm doing something different.

Let's be clear, feats can be unreliable but he're we're talking about a huge bundle of feats against one false statement.

Vitiate existing does not make the statement partial, it outright makes it wrong and un-usable to me. Because, if the statement uses an absolute and that absloute is not correct (as in bane was not the strongest) how can we know that even a small part was real? Even one discrepancy can bring down a point, and that statement is false.

So, to me at least, that statement being wrong in no way applies to every sith who is not Vitiate.

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#102 Edited by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat: Why do you propose that feats are more reliable than factual statements? Do I really need to reiterate some of the hilarious conclusions one can reach by using feats?

And no, not really. It's created as a rule that Bane is superior to all of those Sith. Vitiate can come in and be superior to Bane, but nor Bane or those other Sith's power level changes. That doesn't make sense. For example, the notion that Bane is better than Naga Sadow is undeniable. Why do you suggest that returns to becoming a debate simply because Vitiate is better than Bane?

And to me, relying on what the evidence tells me opposed to appealing to personal incredulity, which is what you're doing by denying the statement and instead choosing to rely on how you, personally, subjectively, view feats, is gonna leave me better off.

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#103 Edited by Pierpat (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

@pierpat: Why do you propose that feats are more reliable than factual statements? Do I really need to reiterate some of the hilarious conclusions one can reach by using feats?

And no, not really. It's created as a rule that Bane is superior to all of those Sith. Vitiate can come in and be superior to Bane, but nor Bane or those other Sith's power level changes. That doesn't make sense. For example, the notion that Bane is better than Naga Sadow is undeniable. Why do you suggest that returns to becoming a debate simply because Vitiate is better than Bane?

And to me, I'm gonna rely on what the evidence tells me opposed to appealing to personal incredulity, which is what you're doing by denying the statement and instead choosing to rely on how you, personally, subjectively, view feats.

How is it a "rule" that bane is superior to all of the siths before him?

Just because of that, false statement or by any other source/logic?

It's not me that's grasping at feats, it's you that are clearly grasping to a statement that is false. Vitiate's existance proves that that factual statement was not made by an omniscient source, and thus needs to be disregarded.

Is there any other proof that makes bane better than anyone before him, but vitiate?
Because from what i know revan can easily be debated to be superior.

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#104 Edited by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat:

How is it a "rule" that bane is superior to all of the siths before him?

Just because of that, false statement or by any other source/logic?

Dude, there's plenty of quotes I view with disdain too, but they don't become "false" just because I wish it so. That's life.

It's not me that's grasping at feats, it's you that are clearly grasping to a statement that is false. Vitiate's existance proves that that factual statement was not made by an omniscient source, and thus needs to be disregarded.

And this is where you have fatally slipped up. Star Wars Fact File is an omniscient source... indicated by it's name. Fact File.

You want to know where Vitiate's accolades of superiority actually come from? Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia.

And you want to know what's written in the Author's Notes?

No Caption Provided

"Written entirely in-universe."

@pierpat said:

It's not me that's grasping at feats, it's you that are clearly grasping to a statement that is false. Vitiate's existance proves that that factual statement was not made by an omniscient source, and thus needs to be disregarded.

On the contrary, since Vitiate's only claim to superiority isn't omniscient, but rather written in-universe, by your own standards it needs to be "disregarded". Bane's is omniscient due to it being written in a Fact File, which is out of universe.

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#105 Edited by Zapan871 (2014 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat: The Fact Files (and by that I mean all issues) never mention Vitiate and his Empire, so the quote doesn't really elevate Bane above the Sith Emperor, i.e there is no contradiction here. And the quote can still be applied to other Ancient Sith, at least when it comes to knowledge, because DOE Bane is certainly above those people (i.e Sadow, Ragnos, Muur, Kun, Nadd) in that regard.

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#106 Posted by noah_ouellette (3786 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: This is a quote. Not a feat. Feats hold more value then quotes. By feats Revan, most of the dark council and some Jedi masters are all superior to bane. Naga sadow wrecks him. Ajunta pall the same. Vitiate? Exar kun even? Come on now. Honestly if you believe that quote I really cannot value your opinion on starwars anymore. I did prior to this post though...

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#107 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

ILS is getting shat on by all corners today. And i agree, feats usually are better.

@noah_ouellette said:

@i_like_swords: This is a quote. Not a feat. Feats hold more value then quotes. By feats Revan, most of the dark council and some Jedi masters are all superior to bane. Naga sadow wrecks him. Ajunta pall the same. Vitiate? Exar kun even? Come on now. Honestly if you believe that quote I really cannot value your opinion on starwars anymore. I

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#108 Posted by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

@noah_ouellette: Your personal incredulity is noted, like all the others.

@zapan871 said:

@pierpat: The Fact Files (and by that I mean all issues) never mention Vitiate and his Empire, so the quote doesn't really elevate Bane above the Sith Emperor, i.e there is no contradiction here. And the quote can still be applied to other Ancient Sith, at least when it comes to knowledge, because DOE Bane is certainly above those people (i.e Sadow, Ragnos, Muur, Kun, Nadd) in that regard.

I also don't think they need to mention Vitiate to apply, since there's no such thing as autonomous retconning, but Vitiate is still probably better than Bane. He's a terribly written version of Sidious.

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#109 Edited by noah_ouellette (3786 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: I really. I've seen you defend starwars before. And I always appreciated that because you did it well. But wanking the shit out of bane? No one here appreciates that. Worse than wanking Revan. Please stop.

All of us here have read banes books. We know his capabilities. He cannot beat the old Sith Lords. He cannot beat people like Revan. He cannot beat someone from the dark council. His best fest is with prep. Without he is stronger than no name force users. But that's about it bro. Please stop wanking.

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#110 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

lol

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#111 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

@noah_ouellette said:

@i_like_swords: I really. I've seen you defend starwars before. And I always appreciated that because you did it well. But wanking the shit out of bane? No one here appreciates that. Worse than wanking Revan. Please stop

Just so you know Oullette, these are his true intentions:

No Caption Provided

He doesn't care about Bane, he just wants to use the quote to attmept to prove that PT Jedi and Sith (AKA - Darth Maul) are better than everyone else. Even though he's readidly admitted Maul doesn't have the feats to compare with the likes of Revan.

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#112 Posted by Wolfrazer (16380 posts) - - Show Bio
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#113 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: Agreed, but not Revan nor Malak. But someone like Darth Bandon perhaps.

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#114 Edited by noah_ouellette (3786 posts) - - Show Bio

@uchiha_macho: oh this SANDWICH. I'll disagree with all these statements. I don't need statements to win an argument. What? Universal. I'd love to see that quote. Little salty about this though. Thank you uchiha. You have been helpful. Followed.

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#115 Posted by noah_ouellette (3786 posts) - - Show Bio
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#116 Edited by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

@noah_ouellette: You'll forgive me if I don't "Bane can't! Bane can't! Bane can't!" overly compelling as an argument. And dude, while I appreciate you may have admired me here before, I'm also not overly phased at you finding my arguments contemptible now. I'm not here to please anyone.

@uchiha_macho said:

No Caption Provided

Damn, following me to other forums too.

But yeah, as Neph said, I'm "reasonably" (you understand the meaning of the word "reason", correct?) pitching my case for why the PT is host to the more powerful characters than earlier eras, pound for pound.

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#117 Posted by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

@noah_ouellette: You'll forgive me if I don't "Bane can't! Bane can't! Bane can't!" overly compelling as an argument.

Damn, following me to other forums too.

But yeah, as Neph said, I'm "reasonably" (you understand the meaning of the word "reason", correct?) pitching my case for why the PT is host to the more powerful characters than earlier eras, pound for pound.

Coolstorybro.

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#118 Posted by Wolfrazer (16380 posts) - - Show Bio
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#119 Posted by noah_ouellette (3786 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: I will hear out your argument. As that quote is not enough. But. You know that feats have the PT beaten. I'm sorry to you and your case here but the feats say your wrong.

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#120 Posted by Renchamp (7849 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
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#121 Posted by Emperordmb (1987 posts) - - Show Bio

@noah_ouellette: there is not one member of the dark council that would beat Bane 1v1 even without that accolade tbh. Bane would truthfully stomp almost any of them.

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#122 Posted by noah_ouellette (3786 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperordmb: no he would not.

Janus. Would win, as would thanaton, nox and the other guy. The one valkorion kills. I forget his name. Bane isn't all that impressive. His most impressive feat is with prep.

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#123 Edited by Emperordmb (1987 posts) - - Show Bio

@noah_ouellette: Nah none of them measure up to unleashing a wave that can reduce a man to a puddle and collapse a temple before becoming much more powerful, unleashing telekinetic blasts that disintegrate dozens of technobeasts at once pre-prime, casually exploding a 20 by 30 meter heavy blast door, moving faster than a room full of near master level Sith could see prior to becoming much much faster, shielding himself and a massive Drexl from atmospheric escape and reentry (which can disintegrate meteors) before becoming much more powerful, blackening orbalisk shells with lightning and unleashing short bursts of lightning while exhausted that can disintegrate groups of people at once, out maneuvering BM amped Raskta Lsu (the greatest duelist in the Jedi order at the time with a faster striking speed than General Grievous and a penchant for predicting her enemy's moves) before his peak as a martial combatant, tanking a concentrated storm of force lightning powerful enough to blacken lightsaber resistant orbalisk shells while being eaten internally by the orbalisks, instantly throwing up a cocoon of energy around his body that can repel lightsaber strikes, and being more powerful than a nexus of dark side energy that had devastated an entire planet decades before his prime...

Shall I go on or do you get the idea?

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#124 Edited by AmethystGravity (2355 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Just wondering, earlier you may have mentioned (I don't feel like checking) that Bane's feat of deflecting raindrops is better than Sidious's quantifiable feats, but isn't Sdious and Plagueis's feats of deflecting the blasterfire of rings of droids (was it on Hypori? I don't remember) better than Bane's, which would be expected given the rule of two? I still think feats can supplement quotes, as in this case, this would be an instance of a speed showing supporting the quotes on the rule of two.

Anyways, I also think the fact that people are claiming Bane and Maul are below Dark Council level is kind of... sad, unless Nyriss's feat of shooting lightning to disintegrate Meetra and Scourge on a potent dark side nexus (which sounds like hyperbole to me) is that great.

Edit: I've also noticed that discrepancy on Magnaguards' speed compared to human perception, though I hope people realize that near-lightspeed reflexes don't translate to combat speed, or else most Metroid characters are FTL).

Back to the battle at hand, I think Maul's lightsaber skills are better and let him win.

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#125 Posted by echostarlord117 (5617 posts) - - Show Bio

"Team," although by that I mean Maul because Rey and Kylo can't contribute shit.

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#126 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

Funny that people claim Kylo isn't a factor in this fight. He's at least an Ahsoka (Rebels) level character and possibly beyond that.

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#127 Edited by ParagonNate (4639 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthduelist9: lmfao no he isn't. Who's he beaten? A bunch of featless padawans off screen with help......that's it. Ahsoka has at least managed to give named and established characters trouble as of TCW, Ren doesn't even have that to his name.

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#128 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate: Because he has more potential, raw power and training.

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#129 Posted by AmethystGravity (2355 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthduelist9: He might not necessarily have more potential, if the Ones on Mortis ended up incidentally imbuing Ahsoka with their power, and the training part is pretty ambiguous, given that we don't know what material Luke had to teach, or how attentive Ren was. For all we know, he could have periodically went into temper tantrum mode and cut up furniture with his lightsaber in the middle of a lesson.

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#130 Edited by Nope111 (679 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonnate said:

@darthduelist9: lmfao no he isn't. Who's he beaten? A bunch of featless padawans off screen with help......that's it. Ahsoka has at least managed to give named and established characters trouble as of TCW, Ren doesn't even have that to his name.

He probably killed some jedi knights at the academy too...

People really underrate him. He got shot by a bowcaster to a stomach a gun which is considered a direct competitor to disruptor rifles (ya know...the guns that violently Rip your flesh apart before disintegrating you)

Even then he still matched a padawan level fighter with an AMP.

Kylo is also one of the fastest users of force speed we have seen on screen yet except for anakin in episode 2 and 3. He is atleast as fast as a car based on his feats with it.

He literally passed rey and finn and ambushed them even though he was MUCH much further behind originally and they had a nice exit while he had to exit through a recently blown up structure and catch them.

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#131 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthduelist9: He might not necessarily have more potential, if the Ones on Mortis ended up incidentally imbuing Ahsoka with their power, and the training part is pretty ambiguous, given that we don't know what material Luke had to teach, or how attentive Ren was. For all we know, he could have periodically went into temper tantrum mode and cut up furniture with his lightsaber in the middle of a lesson.

There is no indication that Ahsoka gained any more power after the Mortis arc. Luke was trained by Yoda into a full fledged Jedi Knight and gained more knowledge studying the Jedi that came before him, so he's definitely capable of giving training that equals if not surpasses that Ahsoka has gotten (and Kylo received more). And well if your only argument is "he didn't pay attention yolo!" then the discussion is over.

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#132 Posted by bigsambino87 (1754 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthduelist9: . "Luke was trained by Yoda into a full fledged Jedi Knight and gained more knowledge studying the Jedi that came before him, so he's definitely capable of giving training that equals if not surpasses that Ahsoka has gotten..."

Disagree. Luke would undoubtedly have knowledge, but there's no way that he could provide better training than the entirety of the PT Jedi Order. Ahsoka learned under some of the greatest Jedi in history. Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Anakin, etc. Luke spent roughly one year with Yoda. With the new canon, we have no clue if he continued his training via Force ghosts or not. Ahsoka had the Jedi Library and hundreds and thousands of Knights and Masters that she could learn from. Luke has to track down all that information. Build it from the ground up. In a lifetime, Kylo Ren could learn as much as Ahsoka could in a couple years, unless Luke and Kylo discovered a vault that was filled with all the teachings of the Jedi Order.

Yoda was a great teacher, but he didn't know everything.

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#133 Posted by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

I will respond to everything I need to respond to in this thread in time, it'll just take a while.

Just wondering, earlier you may have mentioned (I don't feel like checking) that Bane's feat of deflecting raindrops is better than Sidious's quantifiable feats, but isn't Sdious and Plagueis's feats of deflecting the blasterfire of rings of droids (was it on Hypori? I don't remember) better than Bane's, which would be expected given the rule of two? I still think feats can supplement quotes, as in this case, this would be an instance of a speed showing supporting the quotes on the rule of two.

In terms of maths, the amount of speed needed to deflect every drop of rain in a storm to the point not a single bit of water gets on you is higher than being able to deflect a ring of blaster bolts. There's a post buried somewhere in KMC highlighting just how silly the feat is, it was calced somewhere in the 60 strikes per second region.

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#134 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthduelist9: . "Luke was trained by Yoda into a full fledged Jedi Knight and gained more knowledge studying the Jedi that came before him, so he's definitely capable of giving training that equals if not surpasses that Ahsoka has gotten..."

Disagree. Luke would undoubtedly have knowledge, but there's no way that he could provide better training than the entirety of the PT Jedi Order. Ahsoka learned under some of the greatest Jedi in history. Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Anakin, etc. Luke spent roughly one year with Yoda. With the new canon, we have no clue if he continued his training via Force ghosts or not. Ahsoka had the Jedi Library and hundreds and thousands of Knights and Masters that she could learn from. Luke has to track down all that information. Build it from the ground up. In a lifetime, Kylo Ren could learn as much as Ahsoka could in a couple years, unless Luke and Kylo discovered a vault that was filled with all the teachings of the Jedi Order.

Yoda was a great teacher, but he didn't know everything.

Ahsoka never studied under Mace or Obi-Wan or any other Knight/Master besides Anakin and the ones that give standard training to younglings. Claiming Luke's training under Yoda is inferior to Ahsoka's as a youngling is almost beyond the point of ridiculous. Besides, younglings (and even padawans) have only limited access to the Jedi Archives, for example: Only Jedi Council members have access to the Holocron vault.

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#135 Posted by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthduelist9: lmfao no he isn't. Who's he beaten? A bunch of featless padawans off screen with help......that's it. Ahsoka has at least managed to give named and established characters trouble as of TCW, Ren doesn't even have that to his name.

And this is another example of why the feats approach sucks. To really illustrate my point I'll pose you a question, you can answer it, and then I'll ask you another one:

Ventress vs Kylo, who wins?

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#136 Posted by bigsambino87 (1754 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthduelist9: She wouldn't have to be apprenticed to Mace or Kenobi to learn from them. The wisdom and knowledge of 25,000 years of Jedi history was around her at all times. Luke had access to only what Yoda knew. Yes, Yoda knew a lot, but he didn't know everything. Ahsoka's training was superior to Luke's training. Luke's raw power made up for his lack of training. This could be the case with Kylo Ren, but until we see more feats from him, we can't fairly place him anywhere.

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#137 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio
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#138 Posted by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio
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#139 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: I'm still on my computer, so I can't type a full response at the moment, but I fully expect you to adopt these standards to other aspects of Star Wars, including the quote that labels Bastila Shan as an equal to Dooku and Obi-Wan Kenobi as per a third-person, out-of-universe source, and the one that states Darth Revan, alongside Darth Caedus and Palpatine, are the three most powerful Sith Lords in history, more so than Darth Plagueis, Darth Krayt, Darth Vader, or Darth Maul. And also we got Revan as of the Foundry being more powerful than any Jedi before him has even imagined, thus placing him vastly superior to any ancient Sith and galactic entities. Ah, and Verege, a Sith Lord, is stated as being more powerful than Luke Skywalker, so following the factual statements I outlined above, and those you also presented, Luke Skywalker in his peak must also be less powerful than Darth Maul. You're really solving the Hadamard matrix here!

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#140 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

And this is another example of why the feats approach sucks.

Swords, give it up. You're in no position to deem anyone's approach redundant, given your own horrendously hashed 'new paradigm'. You're going to have to prove above and beyond why we should accept your methods, and your policy of 'no feats'. As they fly in the face of what this board was intended to advocate : debate.

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#141 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthduelist9: She wouldn't have to be apprenticed to Mace or Kenobi to learn from them. The wisdom and knowledge of 25,000 years of Jedi history was around her at all times. Luke had access to only what Yoda knew. Yes, Yoda knew a lot, but he didn't know everything. Ahsoka's training was superior to Luke's training. Luke's raw power made up for his lack of training. This could be the case with Kylo Ren, but until we see more feats from him, we can't fairly place him anywhere.

Your contradicting yourself, Luke's raw power made indeed up for his limited amount of training by letting him learn aspects necessary to become a Knight in roughly a year time instead of X years. Luke learned faster then an average student would but he nonetheless had to learn these things to become a Jedi Knight. Ahsoka had access to more knowledge but at the same time she was limited by her status as a youngling and the fact that she contributed in a handful of missions with for example Mace Windu would hardly make up for that. IIRC Anakin even uses it (the Jedi Archives) as a punishment in TCW when she loses her lightsaber, so this indicates that she didn't spent much time there.

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#142 Posted by DarkDefender (4074 posts) - - Show Bio

Jadus takes it.

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#143 Posted by Draukin (112 posts) - - Show Bio

jadus probably. here's how the fight goes: teleport, choke a b***h, repeat as needed. holding a destroyer with tk is way above anything any1 on team has ever done.

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#144 Posted by kbroskywalker (13411 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045: I would really advise not using rey and kylo ren as teammates in high level force user battles as they are completely useless

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#145 Posted by kbroskywalker (13411 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofalltrades2: The problem is that it wasn't perfectly linear, proven by the fact that while all three came after sidious, only one had more raw power, and none ended up being stronger than him. Of those mentioned, vader is the only one i think could beat bane. I'd argue vader beats jadus, even dooku, but in my opinion maul is outclassed. Considering that maul has been tkd by kenobi and ventress, and jadus has some high end tk feats that rival dooku's, i'd argue he could ragdoll maul.

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#146 Posted by kbroskywalker (13411 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045: Legends isn't non canon, its sorta in limbo land, I think its fair to use legends as long as it doesn't contradict canon(ex. marr becoming a force ghost when the force priestesses said only lightsiders could)

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#147 Posted by kbroskywalker (13411 posts) - - Show Bio

@josai34: i think jadus>maul but that is not true. It is canon that the clone wars was the peak of the jedi. The most powerful jedi of all time(till gm luke) and most powerful force user of all time(for at least centuries and depending on intepretation untill de sidious) was a clone wars jedi. Most of the all time masters of their forms were clone wars jedi and sith. Dooku, makashi, kenobi, soresu, yoda, ataru, mace windu, vaapad, kit fisto, shi cho.

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#148 Posted by kbroskywalker (13411 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Maul> Bane?

No Caption Provided

I suppose that kenobi>revan?

ROTS Anakin>vitiate?

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#149 Posted by kbroskywalker (13411 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: maul was a pawn, dooku was a pwan with power

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#150 Posted by kbroskywalker (13411 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: I wouldn't put bane highly above kun, but i agree he is above. I rank vader as slightly better.

vader=>bane=>kun