Darth Jadus Vs Kylo Ren,Maul, and Rey

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#51 Edited by juiceboks (25165 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Sidious pretty much confirmed that Maul served a higher purpose than Dooku in being a potential successor in the recent issue of Darth Vader's series. He also goes through to explain how he started a new era of Sith that represents the true power of the Dark Side.

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#52 Edited by Wolfrazer (16630 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: Eh I'm not sure that's what it implies, sounds to me that Sidious just said Maul was a loss, yet Dooku wasn't.

On an unrelated note, dat artwork...soo good.

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#53 Posted by juiceboks (25165 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: Eh I'm not sure that's what it implies, sounds to me that Sidious just said Maul was a loss, yet Dooku wasn't.

On an unrelated note, dat artwork...soo good.

Dooku was a pawn, actually not even that. He was a literal tool, Sidious even compares him to a mindless weapon. His only purpose was to push Anakin to the Dark Side and he did that by dying. Sheev clearly didn't think of him as anything more than a weapon, yet he was disappointed that Maul turned against him. I believe this is pretty compelling evidence that Sidious thought more of Maul and had greater plans for him.

Yea I'm loving it. It might be my favorite rendition of Sidious yet.

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#54 Posted by Wolfrazer (16630 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: Hm...must have missed some stuff then, though Dooku a mindless weapon?....Seems strange, but ok.

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#55 Posted by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: That's an awesome page, and it does indeed highlight that Maul had a higher purpose. If he didn't he wouldn't have been a loss, like the non-Sith he describes using.

Eh I'm not sure that's what it implies, sounds to me that Sidious just said Maul was a loss, yet Dooku wasn't.

He's suggesting that Dooku, as a proton torpedo (something that makes a big explosion and then disappears forever) was temporarily useful but he ultimately had Vader in mind. Maul was a loss because he had plans for him that he wasn't able to achieve. It was, technically speaking, lucky that Anakin came along as a replacement for Maul.

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#56 Edited by josai34 (76 posts) - - Show Bio

If we're arguing from legends I'll still support the Old Republic because regardless of what Lucas said the feats of the ancients were far more impressive. (Until you get to Luke/Palpatine)Look up what Sith Alchemy could do.

Also, Lucas was not as directly involved int the creation of every bit of the Star Wars universe. He had a good hand, but far more creative minds contributed to Star Wars lore.

Lucas may have created Star Wars but it's more of a deistic approach. After awhile he's had little to do with Star Wars. And even when he said this I'm more inclined it was less a creative decision and more an interview/marketing answer.

Considering the current state of Star Wars, his word has little bearing.

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#57 Posted by juiceboks (25165 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: He compared him to a proton torpedo, I think that's fairly evident of his feelings towards Tyranus.

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#58 Posted by josai34 (76 posts) - - Show Bio
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#59 Edited by Wolfrazer (16630 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: I just figured that was more clever wording, since he achieved what he was set out to do, yet Maul didn't. Who's to say Sidious wouldn't have said the same for Maul?

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#60 Posted by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:

Lucas words are pretty irrelevant now. What disney says it what fly's.

Right, but at the time of creating the movies his word was God. His word doesn't disappear under new ownership, and Disney haven't retconned what he said.

I know, it's difficult to come to terms with the fact that Jadus, Vitiate, and all of those other awesome character-devoid feat-machines guys are ultimately irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, and will be forgotten shortly, meanwhile truly interesting villains like Sidious and his apprentices are immortal in the minds of every Star Wars fan. But, that's life. Might as well join the winning team.

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#61 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: He compared him to a proton torpedo, I think that's fairly evident of his feelings towards Tyranus.

Are you aware that proton torpedos by technical calcs are around Atomic bomb/small nukes levels of energy release ?

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#62 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:

Lucas words are pretty irrelevant now. What disney says it what fly's.

Right, but at the time of creating the movies his word was God. His word doesn't disappear under new ownership, and Disney haven't retconned what he said.

I know, it's difficult to come to terms with the fact that Jadus, Vitiate, and all of those other awesome character-devoid feat-machines guys are ultimately irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, and will be forgotten shortly, meanwhile truly interesting villains like Sidious and his apprentices are immortal in the minds of every Star Wars fan. But, that's life. Might as well join the winning team.

So would you say that maul can defeat Revan with game feats ?

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#63 Edited by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: I just figured that was more clever wording, since he achieved what he was set out to do, yet Maul didn't.

Do you understand what Juice is suggesting, though?

Dooku = had a short term purpose and was not meant for greater things. He was used and thrown away when Anakin came along.

Maul = had a long term purpose and was meant for greater things. If he wasn't cut in half and Anakin didn't come along, he would have carried on the Rule of Two.

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#64 Edited by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:

So would you say that maul can defeat Revan with game feats ?

Maul can defeat anyone who is inferior to Bane. Revan could fall into that category given the new quote, but he's a weird kind of Gary Stu because of Drew choosing to butcher the concepts of Light and Dark and making Revan good at literally everything.

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#65 Edited by juiceboks (25165 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:
@juiceboks said:

@wolfrazer: He compared him to a proton torpedo, I think that's fairly evident of his feelings towards Tyranus.

Are you aware that proton torpedos by technical calcs are around Atomic bomb/small nukes levels of energy release ?

I couldn't care less about calcs and Sheev clearly isn't comparing Dooku's power to a proton torpedo. The context plainly points towards what I'm suggesting rather than your far fetched interpretation.

@wolfrazer And yet his purpose was to find a replacement for Maul, what does that say about Dooku in the grand scheme of things? To me that says Sidious didn't feel him deserving of a place in the new age of Sith as his apprentice, and that his only reason for serving Sidious was to give him someone who did.

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#66 Edited by Wolfrazer (16630 posts) - - Show Bio

Edit: Ya know what, I won't get into this, I guess I missed a few things somewhere along the way. I'll just stick to the Non-Force User side of things moreso. So I agree.

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#67 Edited by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:
@drk045 said:

So would you say that maul can defeat Revan with game feats ?

Maul can defeat anyone who is inferior to Bane. Revan could fall into that category given the new quote, but he's a weird kind of Gary Stu because of Drew choosing to butcher the concepts of Light and Dark and making Revan good at literally everything.

Game feats revan has force storms and can spam it casually, Can tank a few lightsabre strikes with his armor, Has Force speed, Has combat Pre Cog to boost his ability to dodge sabre strikes automatically, Can destroy Combat Droids with H2H, Has the ability to induce fear against seasoned and master sith, Has the ability to Force drain and life drain......

Now tell me......How does canon maul even touch him ?

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#68 Posted by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:

Game feats revan has force storms and can spam it casually, Can tank a few lightsabre strikes with his armor, Has Force speed, Has combat Pre Cog to boost his ability to dodge sabre strikes automatically, Can destroy Combat Droids with H2H, Has the ability to induce fear against seasoned and master sith, Has the ability to Force drain and life drain......

Now tell me......How does canon maul even touch him ?

Canon Sidious can't do any of that either *gasp*, I guess Revan shits on him too.

No yeah, feats are the way to go guys. I must be nuts.

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#69 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio
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#70 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:

Game feats revan has force storms and can spam it casually, Can tank a few lightsabre strikes with his armor, Has Force speed, Has combat Pre Cog to boost his ability to dodge sabre strikes automatically, Can destroy Combat Droids with H2H, Has the ability to induce fear against seasoned and master sith, Has the ability to Force drain and life drain......

Now tell me......How does canon maul even touch him ?

Canon Sidious can't do any of that either *gasp*, I guess Revan shits on him too.

And he does.

No yeah, feats are the way to go guys. I must be nuts.

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#71 Edited by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:

Canon Sidious can't do any of that either *gasp*, I guess Revan shits on him too.

And he does.

I'm done
I'm done

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#72 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:

Canon Sidious can't do any of that either *gasp*, I guess Revan shits on him too.

And he does.

I'm done
I'm done

You were done the second you said Maul could solo. No hard feeling's fam. Take care.

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#73 Edited by Zapan871 (2018 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: The amount of salt from Bane and OR fans is astonishing here (and on Kmc as well), I like that. You made a good analysis on Maul's power compared to Bane. Still, while your method certainly has merit, especially in this case, where it's very effective, I'm not sure we can decide who is better without feats, at least in other instances, e.g. let's say you want to compare Krayt and Dooku, who aren't related in any way, how do you do that without using at least scaled showings (like being more powerful than Wredd who brought down a satellite) in the absence of things such as the RoT, and/or statements directly comparing them (i.e "Krayt is stronger than Dooku" or something along those lines)?

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#74 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871 said:

@i_like_swords: The amount of salt from Bane and OR fans is astonishing here

Just because no one has a valid argument from the posters you agree with doesnt mean the opposing posters are "salty".

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#75 Posted by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: If you don't have any kind of equal measure for characters, and you just have feats, then I don't see what can be done about it. The next step after that I guess is something like their accolades, how much knowledge they've acquired. Like I said, you can get a good idea with feats and comparing accolades and stuff, but that's the furthest you'll get.

Though luckily with Krayt and other characters who have any kind of relation to Luke, you can scale them that way. We know Luke probably became more powerful than Sidious because of one of Lucas' statements about how Luke became what Anakin was meant to become (at the time, which is before the One's were a thing, he said Luke would be twice as powerful as Sids). So even being in that general range puts him beyond Dooku.

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#76 Posted by Nope111 (679 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:
@zapan871 said:

@i_like_swords: The amount of salt from Bane and OR fans is astonishing here

Just because no one has a valid argument from the posters you agree with doesnt mean the opposing posters are "salty".

Lol how is that one week ban going ?

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#77 Posted by AmethystGravity (2424 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Interesting analysis on Maul. I just have two questions:

1. Sort of like what was mentioned before, in the absence of strict comparisons, can feats of effort be used?

For instance, if character A easily smashes apart a super battle droid with TK and character B smashes apart two SBDs, we can't say B's TK is better.

But if A knocks over three trees and is described as feeling exhausted, or it took everything he had, or something along those lines, while character B does the same thing or greater and is described as not even feeling strain, could we conclude that character B's TK is superior?

2. While I do think that each rule of two sith became more powerful, just for the sake of argument...

Is it possible each rule of two sith did become more powerful, yet grew weaker and were killed by their apprentice in a time of weakness? For instance, Luceno has apparently said Plagueis would have beaten TPM Sidious in a duel, yet obviously Sidious grew more powerful, is it possible with some examples, like Gravid's apprentice losing most of her limbs, that an apprentice surpassed the master in a time of incompetence of weakness, making the transitions along the line not extremely great?

As a side note, do you see Ren and Rey being of any more use in this fight then Tiin and Kolar against Sidious? I honestly doubt they can do much, leaving it all up to Maul.

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#78 Posted by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@amethystgravity:

1. Sort of like what was mentioned before, in the absence of strict comparisons, can feats of effort be used?

Not really considering it's still using feats. The effort involved in a feat is just a factor that determines how good the feat is.

2. While I do think that each rule of two sith became more powerful, just for the sake of argument...

Is it possible each rule of two sith did become more powerful, yet grew weaker and were killed by their apprentice in a time of weakness? For instance, Luceno has apparently said Plagueis would have beaten TPM Sidious in a duel, yet obviously Sidious grew more powerful, is it possible with some examples, like Gravid's apprentice losing most of her limbs, that an apprentice surpassed the master in a time of incompetence of weakness, making the transitions along the line not extremely great?

The circumstances regarding the master's death are mostly irrelevant, since it's been confirmed each Sith became successively more powerful. I find it to be pretty speculative to suggest that every generation of Banite Sith during one thousand years had a situation like Gravid's apprentice, which was noted for being exceptional. So yeah I think the thousand years made a huge difference and the quote from the Revenge of the Sith novel correlates.

Btw, Luceno didn't strictly say Plagueis would win a duel. He was asked who would win in a straight fight between him and Sheev during TPM and he said that he personally believes Plagueis would find a way to "undermine" his apprentice, to quote him. So I guess you can take that for what you will.

As a side note, do you see Ren and Rey being of any more use in this fight then Tiin and Kolar against Sidious? I honestly doubt they can do much, leaving it all up to Maul.

We don't know exactly how formidable Ren and Rey are compared to the older Canon characters.

I'm thinking they would put up some fight together against Maul though, especially if Kylo was fresh and not suffering from a huge blaster wound and emotional conflict. Mainly because as we saw, the Inquisitors (who I'd guess are inferior to Kylo given that he receives Sith training, is from an extremely powerful bloodline and has killed many Jedi from Luke's Order) could at least put some fight against Maul (albeit there was three of them).

If they can put up a fight against Maul, they can give a lesser Sith like Jadus issues, for sure. Maybe even win? We need to see how powerful they turn out to be.

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#79 Posted by nfactor1995 (13475 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Maul is among the most powerful PT Jedi/Sith...and yet people think he loses to one of the weaker Old Republic Sith? Don't understand why so many think the OR Force users are so hilariously superior to the PT ones.

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#80 Edited by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Kylo, at TFA, should be at least an Ahsoka level character. He has more training, raw power and potential, so I think it's pretty clear who of the two is better.

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#81 Posted by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthduelist9: TCW Ahsoka? Yeah, it's possible, probable even. He's in his thirties to my knowledge and he's of Solo descent.

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#82 Posted by Pharoh_Atem (44373 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, I feel like an old man in Star Wars threads these days. The entire ideology and hierarchy, has changed since I debated seriously.

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#83 Edited by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: More thinking of Rebels...

Edit: He was comfirmed to be 29/30 by the time of TFA.

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#84 Posted by Beyond (273 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:

Current Maul hasnt shown anything impressive except for getting oneshotted by kanan.

This is the only face I can use to adequately describe how I feel about this statement
This is the only face I can use to adequately describe how I feel about this statement

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#85 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

While I'm still on break, some things just have to be addressed since no one else is going to do it.

@i_like_swords the Darth Bane quote is referring to the era, not all of history, as supported by how fact files structure themselves and the content of the page prior. Otherwise it would be self-contradicting.

Get off the drugs and let me rest in peace.

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#86 Posted by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

While I'm still on break, some things just have to be addressed since no one else is going to do it.

@i_like_swords the Darth Bane quote is referring to the era, not all of history, as supported by how fact files structure themselves and the content of the page prior. Otherwise it would be self-contradicting.

Get off the drugs and let me rest in peace.

Could you elucidate on "how fact files structure themselves"?

The quote in question is separated from the rest of the article's text talking about Bane's rise to power. If I was using this quote about Bane having "unparalleled knowledge" you'd have a point, since it's actually written in the context of the time period and not off by itself:

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In contrast, the quote I'm using just subheads a page and isn't in the context of Bane's rise to power. The header is "Deadly Darth" (indicating that it's opening a discussion about how deadly Bane is), and tell us that Bane has more knowledge, power and skill in the Dark Side than "anyone" who came before. Not anyone in the Brotherhood of Darkness; anyone at all.

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So I'm taking it for what it is for now.

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#87 Edited by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Headers generally prelude or summarize the content of the first paragraph below it. I'm not on my desktop so I can't provide scans, but a key example would be in the Son of Dathomir fact files. The header speaks of how Darth Maul is still trapped in his prison, with the text below it describing his imprisonment and then his escape. The quote, if interpreted as encasing all of Sith history, which it shouldn't, does not stand up to legitimate lore because it would then meet that Darth Revan wields a greater understanding of Sith practices and techniques than Revan as of Shadow of Revan, which is indisputably false, given later incarnations of Revan would wield all of the information of Darth Revan's Sith Holocron, which was basically the sole source of knowledge for Darth Bane at the time (given that the Sith Academy's archives and knowledge was nothing compared to the holocron), but also all the techniques he learned during the Jedi Civil Wars, and three-hundred years of knowledge when waging a mental war against the Dread Masters and Vitiate.

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#88 Edited by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66:

Headers generally prelude or summarize the content of the first paragraph below it. I'm not on my desktop so I can't provide scans, but a key example would be in the Son of Dathomir fact files. The header speaks of how Darth Maul is still trapped in his prison, with the text below it describing his imprisonment and then his escape.

That's hardly the same as this example. One is a Fact File recounting the events of a specific comic series, another is giving us Bane's full history. I think a better example to pull up would be Maul's TPM Fact File given that it is similarly recounting a history of the character.

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So, yeah. I'm not seeing your argument for Fact File subheadings being context-dependant. I'm not saying it's impossible I'm wrong about it, but I'd need more of an argument on your end.

The quote, if interpreted as encasing all of Sith history, which it shouldn't, does not stand up to legitimate lore because it would then meet that Darth Revan wields a greater understanding of Sith practices and techniques than Revan as of Shadow of Revan, which is indisputably false, given later incarnations of Revan would wield all of the information of Darth Revan's Sith Holocron, which was basically the sole source of knowledge for Darth Bane at the time (given that the Sith Academy's archives and knowledge was nothing compared to the holocron), but also all the techniques he learned during the Jedi Civil Wars, and three-hundred years of knowledge when waging a mental war against the Dread Masters and Vitiate.

Sure, if the quote was specifically referring to a Bane whose only source of Sith knowledge was Darth Revan's holocron, and if Revan went on to gain more Sith knowledge in those later time periods (what Sith techniques did he learn during the Civil War/mental war, by the way?), then it'd contradict itself. How can Bane be more knowledgeable than all Sith who came before him if he learned from only one Sith, who would go on to expand his knowledge?

That's why I find it obvious that the quote isn't context dependant or referring to just one time period. It's clearly referring to Bane whenever his knowledge hit his peak (you know, after finding Nadd's holocron among others, and doing his own research). At the time the article was made, we only had information on Bane up to the point of when he found Nadd's holocron and found Zannah, but since that was just the beginning of Bane's career, it's presumed even at that point he had a ways to go before he was done. Drew would fill in the what and why later on by writing the Bane trilogy.

And Bane when he hit the peak of his power and knowledge had access to far more than just Revan's holocron. So the quote holds up. I understand it might be jarring for you that Revan could be inferior to Bane, but unless you can prove the quote is context/era dependant, it stands.

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#89 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords

That's nice, and I am transparent. I'm not trying to conceal anything about my methods.

Well that's certainly not something you want to be readily admitting my friend. If you're going to use sophistry, and attempt to mask it in objective clothing, you had better conceal your frame. Otherwise, there's no reason why I just shouldn't make thread titled 'Maul vs Valkorion' with the front page headlining this passage - "Bane > All Sith and Maul > Bane via Rule of Two. - ILS says ." If you're going to represent yourself as a fanboy, there's no reason why you shouldn't be handled like one. And seen as you've readily admitted that, I suppose I should just refer to you as one.

Given that he was a member of the creative effort that resurrected Maul, who have full authority over where his character goes, gonna go ahead and disagree. Lucas helping out by saying Sidious didn't find Maul expendable, meaning he had a higher purpose, also aids my case. Also, just look at it logically. If Maul was expendable, and wasn't fit to carry on the RoT, why the hell did he steal him from Talzin in the first place. Talzin was a powerful ally who had Dark Side knowledge Sidious coveted, you can't seriously suggest he started a personal war with her over Maul because he wanted to train a guy he had no personal investment in.

Regarding the non-canon opinion of Sam Witwer - that is completely laughable. Witwer's role as a creative effort to revive Maul, is nothing more than being a voice actor. His authority as a creative effort to revive Maul, extends to Maul's tone of speech and his articulation. He 's simply there to read lines from a script he didn't write, and deliver dialect in a manner that suits the character's persona - which doesn't require him to know anything more about Maul than you or I. However, a critic could say his voice acting doesn't fit the character in any way shape or form, diminishing his credibility for that too. Regardless of any subjectivity, Witwer's creative effort is nothing more than a superficial detail, so trying to extend his relevancy past it's bounds, is truly a hallmark of your own credibility (being that you admitted fanboyism earlier). His non-official opinion, is nothing more than a fan interpretation, and it is not part of canon or the source material as it's described - and thus, it isn't conclusive (or even supportive) to any argument. If you want to dwindle on this point, I know of some more un-offical quote's made by actors and authors regarding the franchise. If Witwer's thoughts are taken into consideration, then so are theirs. Do bare in mind some of these opinions contradict your own. So as for a random voice-actor being a credible authority? I'm gonna go ahead and disagree.

As for everything else, reread my post again. Because if you read accurately, and thought about it for a minute before hitting the reply button. You might find out that I never disagreed with all of your conclusions for Maul. Some of them didn't even cross my mind; barring the Idea that Maul is superior to every Ancient Sith via scaling (except for, you know...maybee Vitiate - cuz accolades/sidious wanabee). My gripe is with the methods you use to arrive at some of these conclusions. For example, George Lucas' authority was never in question, so bringing him up here is a moot point - one that I'd never deny. Sam Witwer's views on the other hand, is certainly in question. It was laughable not only to mention him, but then defend his chimes on the state of canon. As for thinking about things logically, that's great. I'm glad you whack-off to your favourite character, and have generated ideas that don't even fly inside my field of vision. But understand this, you're no different to DMB in that manner. He's studied the origins of his numero-uno too, and can jizz-out indomitable walls of text. I'm not going to challenge DMB on Bane, just as I'm not going to tell Ant that Revan sucks. But I will tell them not to quote Drew Karpshin's musings from an email exchange - because it isn't a canon source, and shouldn't be presented as such.

Here's the problem; feats are subjective and down to interpretation

You can say the exact same about accolades. For example, all of Palaptine's most powerful quote's can interpret him as a political figure; wielding control over the republic and separatist movements. There isn't an accolade in canon to suggest he's the most powerful Force-user in rank of the Sith lords. But it's logical to assume that from the myriad of source's detailing him as most powerful, one or more should (could) refer to his personal abilities, if not most of them.

You can interpret a feat to whatever end you like, regardless of how wrong or right you may be.

Now this is debating 101. When you leave your posts ambiguous and open ended, they're also open to more counters. The literal meaning behind this sentence actually grants me authority to deem things true, even if they're not. Here are the implications of what you just said, and what can be answered in response to it : Rivi Anu lifting a capital ship was not actually her own power per se. She was just pretending to struggle and raised her arm appropriately. Meanwhile, a far away praxium of Jedi Knights were true champions of that feat, using their own power to support the ship from the other side of the Galaxy. The end. Now, I know you're attempting to sound philosophical, but the thing is ILS, my opinions on feats aren't that far away from yours. If you read my post and thought about it, before hitting the reply button, the rambling below (and it is rambling) just to explain your methods probably wouldn't have materialised.

Feats are frivolous because it varies ridiculously between writers. But using fact-based sources that simply tell us what is up and what is down to reach our conclusions? A hell of a lot better. You actually have a scale you can put both characters on evenly for comparison, opposed to interpreting what Drew Karpyshyn thinks a Sith can do, with his writing that befits the subtlety of a toddler, versus a master like James Luceno who in comparison may make characters seem underwhelming.

Everything is frivolous - because views vary ridiculously between writers. Everything is also up to interpretation. And that's Because the writers of source-books are not always the same, and don't always cross-reference material. There are some common themes however. As I said, Sidious is generally represented as the 'most powerful', which has been repeated more than enough times to substratum, and makes logical sense - coming from an order of Sith who's purpose was to grow in power. Vitiate's accolades come close, potentially the only one who can rival him in that department. However If a source-book came out tomorrow, stating that Darth Malak was more powerful than everyone who came after him, would we have to take it seriously? Of course not. It goes against common sense that Malak is more powerful than Sheev, or even Vader to say the least. The same applies to Darth Bane being more knowledgable and more masterful than those who came before him. And that's because it's contradictive to the primary source material that features him. If Bane was more knowledgable and more masterful comparative to everyone else, then he would have known how defend himself against Freedon Nadd's legacy. As it stands, his apprentice Darth Zannah, had applied just some Nadd's knowledge in the form of a spell, and as a result Bane (as the popular saying goes) dies. I don't see why Nadd (or his successors) shouldn't just be able to one-shot him, seen as he clearly didn't make use of any of that knowledge in manner relating to combat. But that would require a bit of brain power on your part. Which isn't the same as wanking your favourite character off a quote, and one that has nothing to do with him. There is something called 'logical inference', an little entity that can be used to deter bullshit from something valid. The same of course, can be applied to feats. which is the difference between us. I use everything, and that's why I win. More importantly, I conceal my game. Unlike you, I don't loud-mouth my set pieces from the get go. Rather, I start by mingling them here and there in post; because I know that otherwise, my opponent will attempt all sorts of chicanery, not accepting my premises and picking apart my post. Which is what's happening to you right now.

I'll give you a common example.

In some sources, Force users move "nearly faster than the eye can see". Sometimes they are naked to the human eye.

That is incorrect, As described by Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force; one of those infallible books you like to refer to: almost all Jedi & Sith can move faster than the eye can see. That's why the particular ability is labeled 'burst of speed' with a description of a Force user "disappearing from sight". Emphasis is on the word "burst", describing a short event that peaks on a high-velocity but ends abruptly. A powerful Force user displaying this feint will usually be too fast for sight, or appear as a blur to their onlookers. But that's not to say that they constantly fight in such a state. It's usually dependant on how much they're drawing on the force - a situational feint with context attached. Something that appears to be missing here.

Sometimes Magnaguards are faster than the eye can see and have "near-lightspeed reflexes"

Laughable example. Have you ever heard of something called 'hyperbolic statement'? Something that crops up in constantly in literature, and is usually described form the perspective of a character. A view that doesn't necessarily have to be the objective truth. This is fairly basic stuff Swords. For example; In “The Legend of Sleepy Hollow” by Washington Irving, you can find around three different examples of exaggerated narration from this excerpt: "He was tall, but exceedingly lank, with narrow shoulders, long arms and legs, hands that dangled a mile out of his sleeves, feet that might have served for shovels, and his whole frame most loosely hung together. His head was small, and flat at top, with huge ears, large green glassy eyes, and a long snipe nose, so that it looked like a weather-cock perched upon his spindle neck to tell which way the wind blew. To see him striding along the profile of a hill on a windy day, with his clothes bagging and fluttering about him, one might have mistaken him for the genius of famine descending upon the earth, or some scarecrow eloped from a cornfield."

Translation : the character being described has a big nose, long arms and rather large feat. The same proposition applied to a Magnaguard's reflex, tell us they're very quick; considering the same hyper-advaced technology produces actual lightspeed vessels, one wouldn't be at all surprised. But the fact that Magnagaurds are continually bested by Jedi, and have been staved off by the non-force sensitive Red Guard militia - it's logical to assume they don't operate at Lightspeed. Rather that it's just a statement with two conflicting realties, one exaggerating the real state of affairs made from a character's angling. Now, I hope you don't want to prove that all feats from all mediums are unusable, because certain texts contain blatant hyperboles, just for the purpose of wanking Maul.

Bane's speed feats as DMB describes them (blitzing Sirak faster than a room of Sith can even perceive at a time where Kas'im would defeat Bane handily,

So what? Context my friend. All Force users can move faster than the eye can see, especially given the willingness to do so. There are several examples I can use that shit all over this point. But in the end, nothing here implies that here Bane is any faster than ESB Luke or TPM Kenobi. Laughable example once again. Next.

then in the RoT failing to deflect raindrops, and then in DoE making a mockery out of deflecting rain drops, indicating a huge speed increase) shit on Sidious' own speed feats. At least, it can be interpreted that way.

By defecting raindrops? Not even going to elaborate here Swords. You should know better.

And I think you can agree the examples of feats being flimsy are near enough countless.

Nope. Well... maybe I could, but I'm not going to. Especially not from the examples you've presented - which I assume you've kept in reserve for this special occasion, and probably have nothing better to offer. In fact, based of this interaction, I can conclude that feats are a better element when comparing and contrasting characters than any quote you've offered so far. Which includes Maul being one of the most highly trained sith lords - someone who doesn't even know how to generate electricity from his hands (or defend against such). Perhaps you can change my mind by proving why feats aren't relevant, but instead with better illustrations. Then maybe I can agree with you. On a side note, do you now understand why concealing your game is important? You've structured your post in way that puts me (or anyone else) in a position to accept your theorem, or to reject it.

Krayt has inferior TK feats to subordinates like Darth Wredd.

Nope. Ragdolling Cade Skywalker beats toppling a big satellite dish, and then you have consider context. Krayt simply waved a single outstretched arm to hoist Cade from his spot, while, Wredd's feat took a great deal of concentration and some evident strain. But more importantly, the effort can be split down the middle considering he had help from another Force user at that point. There are plenty of other feats (yes feats, oh my!) that demonstrate why Krayt's the top dog of his era, and also why he's better than most people from other eras. Those all relate to a nice amount of power. Tired example.

Rivi-Anu has a better TK feat than Yoda, who in one source is suggested to be incapable of lifting a certain number of those Muntuur stones,

So predictable. And nope. Yoda has collided multiple CIS landing crafts against their engine thrusters, and does so without visible fatigue or wear. Rivi could barely suspend a single capital ship, and only had to contest gravity. The amount of energy expended in joules, will objectively be higher for the former. Hence forth - Yoda's feat is better.

Muntuur stones, which only weigh something like a few tons each.

Funnily enough, those infallible sourcebook's; the ones that are a hell of a lot better than feats, have conflicting figures for their weight. You know, those books that don't vary across writers, and can totally be considered flawless, because they're objective facts... because one of them hyped Maul. When in reality, it;s another detrimental point for your premise.

OCW Anakin shortly after AotC has better TK feats than his later incarnations which are "far more powerful" than himself.

And how did he get more powerful exactly? Did his midi-cholirian count increase? Which we know can not happen. Or is power a relative term than can apply to a multitude of practices, such as his use of power in combat - the capacity to draw upon the Force when waving a lightsaber, for example. Which is far removed from operating a large ship, outside of combat.

You simply can't rely on feats if there are examples of weaker characters having better feats than factually stronger ones. It's too subjective.

That's nice. I'm not going to just rely on feats; and never have, and you don't know what my methods are because I haven't revealed them to you. Saying that, you haven't proven why I can't rely on feats, and it might be a fair enough premise, but it really begs the question. Where are these examples of weaker characters having better feats than presumably stronger ones? Because they seem to be absent in your post.

And sure, sourcebooks can have contradictions, like Vitiate being the ultimate avatar of the Dark Side, and all of his accolades. It's called a retcon. By accolades Vitiate very well could be better than Bane (though honestly I don't know or care enough about Vitiate and the context of his accolades to determine where he stands). For the record, I'm perfectly aware Vitiate has way better feats than Maul and Bane put together. The thing is that I don't care about feats, so if Vitiate didn't have his accolades and the holistic intent of his character (a poor rehash of Sidious), I wouldn't put him over Bane. But he does, so I probably do, and also Maul by extension.

I like the puff piece swords, but it's more extreme then that. Vitiate has better feats than every rule of two Sith combined. Let that sink in for a minute. And it's not just a case of feats vs accolades. You have to consider that Vitiate was part of a group of sith lords, the reigning caste of the Sith Empire, who had knowledge at their disposal that dated back 100,000 years (the Force manipulations of the original Sith species) or 2,000 years (the teachings of the exiled Dark Jedi). As a collective, they have extended that knowledge, much as todays society does the job. I don't need to be an astrophysican to know, that the Earth revolves around the sun – an information that wasn't common knowledge in the Middle Ages. So that "common knowledge" grows with time elapsing and the more people contributing to that common knowledge, the higher the amount of knowledge that can be gained. Does that sound reasonable? I thinks so.

Hence, of course several thousands Sith Lords will generate more knowledge than a collective of two. That is why Plagueis can store his library on an island, while the Ancient Sith had at least one "planet-size storehouse of Sith knowledge and artifacts", known as Malachor V, serveral training facilities (academies) and institutions like Veeshas Tuwan, an ancient Sith library on the planet Arkania, that Seviss Vaa describes as "the greatest loss during that period [Great Hyperspace War]" (The Essential Guide through the Force, p.160).

The most common Sith teachings were available to anybody – at least those who were members of the Sith Lord caste. As you've pointed out so brillantly with your sarcasm-enameled diatribe, the Ancient Sith were somewhat reluctant when it came to sharing knowledge. Correct. Yet, we have examples of knowledge and artifacts passing down as heriditary items (as happened with the Kressh family in the ToR game). Vitiate did wrestle control over Nathema from his biological father (at age 10) and would have inherited whatever knowledge base stored there.

And, apparently, he did put that knowledge base to a very good use, provided that he managed to render himself virtually immortal and do the same with some of his servants (the Hands, Lord Scourge) as some form of reward. The mere demonstrated abilities of the Sith Emperor eclipse anything we have seen by other individuals in the same fields of force lore. Sidious might have been able to transfer his essence into another body. Vitiate managed to put a part of his essence into several individuals (the Hands, his Voice, his children), establishing connections with some (e.g. Revan) while completely dominating the "host body" of his Voice. His success in the quest for immortality does de facto eclipse everything Plagueis and Sidious were capable of. What he did to Nathema makes even the exploits of Darth Nihilus look like childs play. And the amount of powers he was capable of summoning in direct confrontation is unparalleled.

The real source of confusion is the disparity in feats and power relationships. Sidious and Yoda are the most powerful Jedi and Sith up to their time,

Maybe they are, but even a sceptic can contest that fact with interpretation of what 'power' means, which is to say that other Sith and Jedi could be more powerful; Namely Valkorion, who eclipses those two when it comes to feats, and especially when comparing ROTS Sidious. Sheev looks like a bad joke in comparison.

so you'd think it'd be readily apparent that the weaker characters in their era are also pretty badass?

Considering Sidious dominated those characters, I'd say there's a pretty far gap between himself and everyone else in that era. This was also an era that didn't have much water to test their badassery, seen as most of them were on diplomatic missions before the Clone Wars. Dooku's first real hint of action was against the Mandolorions on Galidran, and of course, Jango Fett was humiliating Jedi left and right; demonstrating how unprepared for the PT Jedi were for combat.

Well, they are; you have Anakin and Windu who are pretty blatant powerhouses, but after that? Dooku? Maul? What feats have they got that match up to these Ancient Sith who are holding together capital ships, slaughtering armies of Jedi, ripping the cores out of suns, and in general lifting/destroying massive shit with TK? The Dread Masters? Soa? Nihilus? Giga Drain and Force Wounds? Teleportation? Truthfully, nothing. PT and TCW storytelling is far more grounded and the feats by proxy aren't always as grandiose as bioware and 80s/90s comics. You have the odd outliers like Rivi-Anu but it's not as consistently outlandish as TOR etc.

Well, Maul needs to use Force Lightning before he can even dream of those exploits. I don't know what to say otherwise... sorry that your favorite sith isn't even top-twenty material? And would probably get killed by pretty sparkles?

I chalk it up not to there being some ridiculously huge gulf between Maul/Dooku and Sidious,

Cool. And why should I have to accept that? Especially when see first hand that Sidious can humiliate him and his brother without exercising that much effort. Do you want me to bring up the non-canon statements from Dave fioni? The one's that go against what you've chalked up... Or is just voice actors you prefer to quote, when wanking your favourite character?

but rather just different authorial interpretations of what they want their characters to do. If you put Maul/Dooku in SWTOR or under Drew Karpyshyn's pen, you can guarantee their feats would be awesome, just like Luceno or Stover wrote SWTOR characters or Bane their feats would plummet.

Laughable, theres no guarantee of anything like that. Even if you'd like to imagine Plagueis draining planets of people, it just didn't happen. Therefor,e you're arguing in the realm of fan-fiction. Maul and Dooku have enough mediums between them to make up the difference, if you don't like their feats compared to Darth Nyriss, that's really not my problem. You're basically crying at this point.

Obviously a game is going to blow the Force out of proportionway more than the original movies and any material that descend from them. It's a different audience and a different experience.

Because you say so? Considering there have been more than enough clone wars games, I suppose you shouldn't be complaining. And how will a game obviously blow things out of proportion - you need to prove that before I can accept your agenda - among many other things.

Hope that clears up what I'm going for.

You have proven that your devotion for Maul is a force to contend with. Nothing else.

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#90 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

Basically @i_like_swords

You're going to have to try harder in your attempt to rid all feats from a battles-forum that deals in them. Especially when that purpose is just to simply elevate Darth Maul above people he doesn't stack up to.

@darthant66 said:

While I'm still on break, some things just have to be addressed since no one else is going to do it.

@i_like_swords the Darth Bane quote is referring to the era, not all of history, as supported by how fact files structure themselves and the content of the page prior. Otherwise it would be self-contradicting.

Get off the drugs and let me rest in peace.

I couldn't respond last night because of drinking stuff, but he's beyond high at this point. Expect Darth Maul vs SOR Revan battles after this. And by the way, this whole exchange is your fault Ant. It's hilarious watching you back-track after presenting that quote.

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#91 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871 said:

@i_like_swords: The amount of salt from Bane and OR fans is astonishing here (and on Kmc as well), I like that. You made a good analysis on Maul's power compared to Bane. Still, while your method certainly has merit, especially in this case, where it's very effective, I'm not sure we can decide who is better without feats, at least in other instances, e.g. let's say you want to compare Krayt and Dooku, who aren't related in any way, how do you do that without using at least scaled showings (like being more powerful than Wredd who brought down a satellite) in the absence of things such as the RoT, and/or statements directly comparing them (i.e "Krayt is stronger than Dooku" or something along those lines)?

Plenty of PT fans on KMC were calling him out too. And to answer your question on Krayt vs Dooku - the answer is feats.

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#92 Posted by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul was a loss because he had plans for him that he wasn't able to achieve.

Just saw this. It's quite amazing how the fanboy mind will interpret things that aren't even in the text. BTW, the badgering is deserved here and will continue.

As for canon:

Loading Video...

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#93 Posted by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

"one of the most highly trained sith lords" ladies and gents.

No Caption Provided

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#94 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

* just not by feats. *

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#95 Posted by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@uchiha_macho:

BTW, the badgering is deserved here and will continue.

I was actually in the middle of getting a response back to you, but clearly your intentions aren't scholarly and have nothing to do with reasonable discussion... is there any reason I should waste my time on an emotionally delicate troll? You seem way more concerned with me than the debate at hand.

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#96 Posted by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

@uchiha_macho:

BTW, the badgering is deserved here and will continue.

I was actually in the middle of getting a response back to you, but clearly your intentions aren't scholarly and have nothing to do with reasonable discussion... is there any reason I should waste my time on an emotionally delicate troll? You seem way more concerned with me than the debate at hand.

Looks like Maul fans are chucking up buckets of salt today.

No Caption Provided

If you want to debate, you know where I am. Perhaps we'll do a Maul vs Itachi Uchiha - bare in mind though, you won't win. I do respect you ILS, because no one else could make such an argument sound as eloquent as you. But you're not better than me, I know too many tricks of the trade. I could teach you, if you'd like?

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#97 Edited by Pierpat (5855 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Now, i'm not a SW buff or anything, but i like to follow SW debates here and i have read some EU stuff now and again.

I'm just here to say that disregarding a huge set of feats and considering the characters that performed them inferior to characters with far less impressive feats due to one statement about Bane being better than his predecessors (that is blatantly false as anyone can sai that at the very least Vitiate was stronger than him) and to a personal impression on how the storytelling evolves seems mad to me and generally not in line with the usual philosophy of this board ( Feats>Scaling and statements)

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#98 Posted by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@uchiha_macho: Nah, I'm okay. I'll have a response up relatively soon. In the meantime, do enjoy your God complex, mmk?

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#99 Edited by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat: I have a couple of points to make about that:

Just because something has only been said or happened once, opposed to multiple times, doesn't make it any less credible a source. That kind of logic bites you in the ass when you're trying to use a feat/statement that is isolated, as you'll probably find out.

Here's the thing with Vitiate: this Bane quote does indeed pre-date Vitiate's own accolades, as well as Vitiate's existence. So Vitiate is probably better than Bane because he has his own accolades. That said, I still need to determine if the source of those accolades are in or out of universe. They come from the TOR Encyclopedia, which people argue is era-dependant, written within the context of the TOR era alone. But regardless of that, Bane's quote still applies to every Sith who isn't Vitiate. They don't suddenly become superior to him because one new character is. It simply relegates Bane below Vitiate.

I've spoken at length about why your personal interpretation of a feat is an inferior means of analysis than taking a factual statement and applying it's meaning, but I also respect that the majority of people are going to use feats. I personally don't think feats are useless, just unreliable, so I'm doing something different.

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#100 Posted by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio