Darth Jadus Vs Kylo Ren,Maul, and Rey

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#1 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio
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Team has to take on Darth jadus. Standard gear.

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#3 Posted by Mije_101 (1549 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul solos.

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#4 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by Chaos239 (5081 posts) - - Show Bio

Are we talking rebels maul? Because if so with the assistance of Ren and Rey it's a murderstomp, Mauls easily more powerful than Jadus, his blade style would be more than enough to outmatch Jadus and again Ren and Kylo make this overkill, their combined force abilites overmatch Jadus.

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#6 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaos239 said:

Are we talking rebels maul? Because if so with the assistance of Ren and Rey it's a murderstomp, Mauls easily more powerful than Jadus, his blade style would be more than enough to outmatch Jadus and again Ren and Kylo make this overkill, their combined force abilites overmatch Jadus.

Maul being a dark council member level force user.....

lol the hype is real.

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#7 Posted by Jackofalltrades2 (531 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaos239 said:

Mauls easily more powerful than Jadus,

....Jadus holding together his ship with his TK surpasses anything Maul has ever done.

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#8 Posted by ParagonNate (4661 posts) - - Show Bio

*scratches head* What the actual heck are Rey and Kylo even here for? From what we've seen of them so far they don't even register as threats to Jadus. Maul is another story however. Not sure how the fight goes down seeing as I don't know a whole lot about Jadus.

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#9 Posted by decaf_wizard (17257 posts) - - Show Bio

Why are Kylo and Rey even here?

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#10 Edited by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul, Dooku and Vader, and anyone pretty close to them, are pretty much objectively greater than Jadus if you account for two things:

Bane is better than every Sith who came before him:

Also, apparently this is just PoD Bane, not even DoE. Taken from Fact File #22
Also, apparently this is just PoD Bane, not even DoE. Taken from Fact File #22

The Sith had "grown, adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself" since Bane's day.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

-Revenge of the Sith

This is the same order of Sith who trained Maul from infancy into "one of the most highly trained, deadly and skilled" Sith Lords in "Sith history". I find it extremely hard to believe that Maul, whose power has been constantly growing from the age of 2 up until SoD where he's 34, is going to be inferior to Bane who having started far inferior training with the Brotherhood of Darkness at the age of 20 or so, and then still far inferior personal training with holocrons whose knowledge has been expanded on for a thousand years, is going to be inferior to Bane. Give Bane maybe 26 years of real power growth before he reached his peak and died versus Maul who, with far better resources, has been growing in power for 32 years?

What adds legitimacy to this argument in addition is the fact that Sidious thought Maul capable of carrying on the Rule of Two Sith were he to perish (which he demonstrated by taking on a Sith Apprentice in the form of Savage, raising a galactic superpower with little to no resources, and becoming formidable enough for Sidious to want to take him out personally as a "rival").

Bane, on the other hand, was described by Plagueis as an "anachronism" - someone fit for his own time period, but definitely not this one. The way he described Bane in this manner was by comparing Darth Venamis to him; Venamis being Tenebrous' secret apprentice who Plagueis defeated despite being in overwhelming negative circumstances.

An investigation of the ship had yielded data that might have surprised even Darth Tenebrous, who had provided the ship. It seemed that well before he had confronted Plagueis or learned of his Master’s fate, Venamis himself had been scouting for potential apprentices.

Plagueis could not help being impressed, though begrudgingly. The young Bith would have done well in Bane’s era.

Now, however, he was an anachronism, and by extension, Tenebrous also.

-Darth Plagueis

Bare in mind this is Plagueis before he had any idea who Palpatine was (not sure if he was a kid at this point or what). Which is to say, Plagueis way before his own peak already finds Bane to be extremely old fashioned as far as Sith go.

Yet you look at how well Sidious trained Maul, the plans he had for him, the objective praise he gives him in his own private musing, and what newer Canon statements say about how remarkably powerful a Sith Maul is... and it again becomes hard to believe Bane could be better than him.

The nail in the coffin is Maul's feat of surviving being cut in half; we can also use this as a measure of how much more advanced he is than Bane, for the simple fact that Sidious didn't even think it was possible for a Sith to survive such an injury. If Maul can show Sidious, who is so far beyond Bane it's not even funny, something about the Dark Side that hadn't occurred to him before, can he be anything other than objectively better than Bane?

Sam Witwer: So, it’s the perfectionist streak that Palpatine has. And what’s really fun to note is that Darth Maul, having survived his grievous injuries, plants the seed in Palpatine’s head that maybe you don’t give up on these guys so quickly. If they’re dead, or you think they’ve been killed, maybe they’re not. Maybe they can survive, maybe they can amount to something. That’s something we get to see coming up, Sidious realizing that. That ultimately leads to Darth Vader.

HW: Yeah, I mean why did Palpatine still think Vader could be a worthwhile apprentice after his little brush with molten lava?

SW: Common wisdom would be, you find this guy lying by a volcano, his flesh smoking and burned up, with no limbs, and you’d say, “Hey stormtrooper, put a blaster bolt in this guy. Put him out of his misery.” You don’t rebuild that guy. That’s ridiculous. Unless maybe you’ve already seen a guy getting cut in half and crawling through garbage for ten years, clinging to life with every ounce of determination he has. That’s the nature of the Sith, they don’t see anything beyond their corporeal existence.

―Sam Witwer, voice actor of Darth Maul from The Clone Wars http://www.hollywood.com/tv/sam-witwer-on-darth-maul-s-clone-wars-fate-he-s-playing-a-long-game-q-a-57698611/

So, in summary:

  • Bane is better than any Sith who came before him, on a factual level. Vitiate might be an exception because of his own newer accolades but that's not important.
  • Jadus easily falls into this category.
  • Through a myriad of near-enough undeniable pieces of evidence, Maul and Sheev's other apprentices are better than Bane.
  • Ergo, Maul is clearly better than Jadus. He solos.

The only thing you could argue Jadus having is feats, because he's a Bioware character. But if that's the route people want to take I can win that way too; just give me a moment to think of a way to scale Rivi Anu - the Clone Wars padawan who slowed the descent of a capital ship - or early CW Anakin who was directing massive dreadnought ships into the path of missiles fast enough to intercept them off of Maul at his peak, which isn't really difficult because hey, thanks to TCW, everybody Force pushes everybody.

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#11 Posted by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:
@chaos239 said:

Are we talking rebels maul? Because if so with the assistance of Ren and Rey it's a murderstomp, Mauls easily more powerful than Jadus, his blade style would be more than enough to outmatch Jadus and again Ren and Kylo make this overkill, their combined force abilites overmatch Jadus.

Maul being a dark council member level force user.....

lol the hype is real.

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Maul being considered Dark Council level is canonically insulting.

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#12 Edited by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:
@drk045 said:
@chaos239 said:

Are we talking rebels maul? Because if so with the assistance of Ren and Rey it's a murderstomp, Mauls easily more powerful than Jadus, his blade style would be more than enough to outmatch Jadus and again Ren and Kylo make this overkill, their combined force abilites overmatch Jadus.

Maul being a dark council member level force user.....

lol the hype is real.

No Caption Provided

Maul being considered Dark Council level is canonically insulting.

Maybe to EU maul but that isnt the case here.

Current Maul hasnt shown anything impressive yet except for getting oneshotted by kanan and killing the inquisicopters.

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#13 Edited by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:

Current Maul hasnt shown anything impressive except for getting oneshotted by kanan.

This is the only face I can use to adequately describe how I feel about this statement
This is the only face I can use to adequately describe how I feel about this statement

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#14 Posted by Mije_101 (1549 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045 said:
@mije_101 said:

Maul solos.

lol

Your own comment sums up your opinion here.lol.

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#15 Edited by Jackofalltrades2 (531 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_sworddoesn't d:

Maul, Dooku and Vader, and anyone pretty close to them, are pretty much objectively greater than Jadus if you account for two things B

ane is better than every Sith who cam before him:

Also, apparently this is just PoD Bane, not even DoE. Taken from Fact File #22
Also, apparently this is just PoD Bane, not even DoE. Taken from Fact File #22

Nope.

Bane being stronger than any sith before him is contradicted by both hype and feats.PoD Bane is amazed by Darth Revan's knowledge yet is supposed to be more powerful than Vitiate and Exar Kun, who is compared to a vastly superior sith in DE Sidious? Dont make me laugh.

The quote is simply referring to Bane being stronger than any Sith in the Brotherhood of Darkness,who are referenced in earlier pages as being surpassed by Bane.Context is a thing.

@i_like_swords said:

This is the same order of Sith who trained Maul from infancy into "one of the most highly trained, deadly and skilled" Sith Lords in "Sith history". I find it extremely hard to believe that Maul, whose power has been constantly growing from the age of 2 up until SoD where he's 34, is going to be inferior to Bane who having started far inferior training with the Brotherhood of Darkness at the age of 20 or so, and then still far inferior personal training with holocrons whose knowledge has been expanded on for a thousand years, is going to be inferior to Bane. Give Bane maybe 26 years of real power growth before he reached his peak and died versus Maul who, with far better resources, has been growing in power for 32 years?

What adds legitimacy to this argument in addition is the fact that Sidious thought Maul capable of carrying on the Rule of Two Sith were he to perish (which he demonstrated by taking on a Sith Apprentice in the form of Savage, raising a galactic superpower with little to no resources, and becoming formidable enough for Sidious to want to take him out personally as a "rival").

What matters is the end game, not how you arrived there.Maul has trained more than Bane yet his feats are inferior and Maul cannot claim RoT powerscaling.He isn't more powerful than Bane.

Sidious never trained Maul to surpass him in the lineage.You only get RoT powerscaling once you have finished off your Master or if you can conclude the apprentice being stronger than the Master without a doubt.Maul doesn't have either of these cases going for him and seeing as how his feats are far inferior to that of Bane,there is nothing implying Maul is above Bane.

@i_like_swords said:

Bane, on the other hand, was described by Plagueis as an "anachronism" - someone fit for his own time period, but definitely not this one. The way he described Bane in this manner was by comparing Darth Venamis to him; Venamis being Tenebrous' secret apprentice who Plagueis defeated despite being in overwhelming negative circumstances.

An investigation of the ship had yielded data that might have surprised even Darth Tenebrous, who had provided the ship. It seemed that well before he had confronted Plagueis or learned of his Master’s fate, Venamis himself had been scouting for potential apprentices.

Plagueis could not help being impressed, though begrudgingly. The young Bith would have done well in Bane’s era.

Now, however, he was an anachronism, and by extension, Tenebrous also.

-Darth Plagueis

Plagueis believes Bane's knowledge is not a match for his own.This has nothing to do with Maul being above Bane.

And neither does Maul surviving being cut in half.A good feat for him and good hype,but impressing Sidious with that doesn't put you above Bane in power regardless of the power difference.How you could twist it like that is beyond me really.

@i_like_swords said:

  • Bane is better than any Sith who came before him, on a factual level. Vitiate might be an exception because of his own newer accolades but that's not important.
  • Jadus easily falls into this category.
  • Through a myriad of near-enough undeniable pieces of evidence, Maul and Sheev's other apprentices are better than Bane.
  • Ergo, Maul is clearly better than Jadus. He solos.

Lmao at the "might".Vitiate feats completely shit on Bane's as does his accolades.

Bane is factually superior to all sith before him in the same way Malak is far more powerful than Exar Kun.

Maul doesn't get Rule of Two powerscaling,sorry.

@i_like_swords said:

The only thing you could argue Jadus having is feats, because he's a Bioware character. But if that's the route people want to take I can win that way too; just give me a moment to think of a way to scale Rivi Anu - the Clone Wars padawan who slowed the descent of a capital ship - or early CW Anakin who was directing massive dreadnought ships into the path of missiles fast enough to intercept them off of Maul at his peak, which isn't really difficult because hey, thanks to TCW, everybody Force pushes everybody.

Rivi-Anu scaling doesn't help you here seing as how Jadus's feat is superior.Cute how PT fans always fall back on padawan outlier scaling when things dont go their way in feats.

Also, ROFL at you trying to downplay the Dark Council.Whats lolworthy here is Maul being above even Thanaton let alone top tier Dark Council members.

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#16 Edited by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:
@drk045 said:

Current Maul hasnt shown anything impressive except for getting oneshotted by kanan.

This is the only face I can use to adequately describe how I feel about this statement
This is the only face I can use to adequately describe how I feel about this statement
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No Caption Provided

Kanan is too much for maul.

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#17 Posted by noobsnowman (3751 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul solos.

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#18 Posted by WollfMyth209 (17489 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, apparently this is just PoD Bane, not even DoE. Taken from Fact File #22
Also, apparently this is just PoD Bane, not even DoE. Taken from Fact File #22

Early Rule of Two, actually. This is by the time he searched forbidden texts, all of the knowledge in the academy, and had Revan, Nadd and a bunch of other lesser Sith, which is ahead of PoD.

On topic: Maul solos.

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#19 Posted by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofalltrades2:

Nope.

Bane being stronger than any sith before him is contradicted by both hype and feats.PoD Bane is amazed by Darth Revan's knowledge yet is supposed to be more powerful than Vitiate and Exar Kun, who is compared to a vastly superior sith in DE Sidious? Dont make me laugh.

The quote is simply referring to Bane being stronger than any Sith in the Brotherhood of Darkness,who are referenced in earlier pages as being surpassed by Bane.Context is a thing.

Could you or someone else post the full page the quote comes from? The phrasing doesn't indicate that it's only referring to the Brotherhood. I only heard through the grapevine it referred to PoD Bane, but to me it actually makes more sense for it to refer to Bane at his peak, since it's an out of universe source. The quote to my knowledge pre-dates Karpyshyn's books, which indicates to me that it's referring to Bane whenever he hit his peak. Karpyshyn just gave us the story associated with him reaching that peak years later.

If you can show me that the quote is dictated by specific context then I'll concede.

What matters is the end game, not how you arrived there.Maul has trained more than Bane yet his feats are inferior and Maul cannot claim RoT powerscaling. He isn't more powerful than Bane.

This isn't really much of an argument. Bane has better speed "feats" than *gasp* Sidious, does that mean he's faster than him now?

Accolades and scaling on an equivalent platform - the Rule of Two - actually gives us a definitive answer. Saying "X has better feats" only determines one thing - who has better feats. And given that feats vary hilariously based on the medium, canon level and/or author, putting my stock into them as a source of evidence is haphazard to say the least.

By the way, if you want to explain to me why Maul doesn't receive RoT scaling, feel free. My argument is there. Your personal incredulity doesn't change anything.

Sidious never trained Maul to surpass him in the lineage. You only get RoT powerscaling once you have finished off your Master or if you can conclude the apprentice being stronger than the Master without a doubt.Maul doesn't have either of these cases going for him and seeing as how his feats are far inferior to that of Bane,there is nothing implying Maul is above Bane.

Yeah, given the absolutely massive gap between Sidious and Bane, I'm going to say it's not a prerequisite to be stronger than Sidious to be stronger than Bane. Maul doesn't receive RoT scaling in the traditional sense, but rather in that he clearly belongs to a higher breed of Sith who have spent the last 1000 years evolving massively.

Sure, maybe Maul wasn't meant to become more powerful than Sidious (though this isn't impossible), but he was intended to be someone who can carry on the RoT in Sidious' stead if he needs to, and we're not talking about the primitive version of the RoT Bane ran - we're talking about one 1,000 years more advanced.

Forgive me if I believe George Lucas and Sam Witwer (Maul's TCW voice actor) over your personal beliefs. According to them, Maul wasn't expendable and Sidious trained him from infancy as a Sith Lord for a reason.

Well, [Sidious] shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways.

-George Lucas, Attack of the Clones DVD Commentary

HW: Now we get to see that Maul’s actually an intellectual character. He’s not just a blunt instrument, an assassin, like it seemed in the movie.

SW: He had to be. The Sith as a culture realized, “Hey, we’re all bad guys, we don’t work well together, so let’s keep it to two. Otherwise we’ll be killing each other left and right.” So if you follow the Rule of Two, you have to pick your apprentice very carefully.

You don’t just pick a guy because he can do cool flips and swing a sword good. You choose a guy who is brilliant and gifted in so many ways, physically and mentally, and can carry on the Sith tradition proudly. A thuggish hitman would be a hindrance when trying to take over the galaxy.You need someone who can work with you and to whom you can pass the baton when the time comes.

And that’s a theme in the Star Wars saga as a whole. It’s so very much about Sidious trying to find that successor. He thinks he’s found that person in Darth Maul, but then Maul is cut down.

―Sam Witwer, voice actor of Darth Maul from The Clone Wars (http://www.hollywood.com/tv/sam-witwer-on-darth-maul-s-clone-wars-fate-he-s-playing-a-long-game-q-a-57698611/)

Plagueis believes Bane's knowledge is not a match for his own. This has nothing to do with Maul being above Bane.

Obviously you've missed the point entirely. Bane was okay for his time, but he wouldn't have been able to further the RoT in the age of Plagueis and Sidious. Maul can, speaking factually. Ergo, Maul with *gasp* a thousand years better training than Bane happens to be better than him.

And neither does Maul surviving being cut in half.A good feat for him and good hype,but impressing Sidious with that doesn't put you above Bane in power regardless of the power difference.How you could twist it like that is beyond me really.

Again, you're missing the point. The reason it's impressive is because to Sidious, whose knowledge of the Sith is unparalleled and far beyond Bane's, it was unheard of that a Sith could survive that kind of injury. But then Maul did. It's both a better feat than anything Bane has ever done and holistic evidence that he's a more advanced Sith.

But you are right. All of this does seem beyond you. You only use feats. I use everything. That's why I win.

Lmao at the "might".Vitiate feats completely shit on Bane's as does his accolades.

It depends on whether or not his accolades are in the context of TOR. Feats are flimsy.

Rivi-Anu scaling doesn't help you here seing as how Jadus's feat is superior.Cute how PT fans always fall back on padawan outlier scaling when things dont go their way in feats.

Given that Jadus' "feat" is just his word, I'm not really taking it as hard evidence of anything. Which is kind of a running theme of TOR characters and their respective fanatics; a character says something or a distant myth recounts a battle in a hyperbolic manner and you guys hop on it like it's gospel. But a PT character actually doing something or an out of universe source making it clear as day for you? It's never enough.

Also, ROFL at you trying to downplay the Dark Council.Whats lolworthy here is Maul being above even Thanaton let alone top tier Dark Council members.

Yeah, again, I'm gonna go ahead and say Thanaton or those Dark Council members aren't worthy of being Sidious' apprentice and carrying on a far more advanced and successful Sith Order than their own. But to each their own.

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#20 Posted by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:
Also, apparently this is just PoD Bane, not even DoE. Taken from Fact File #22
Also, apparently this is just PoD Bane, not even DoE. Taken from Fact File #22

Early Rule of Two, actually. This is by the time he searched forbidden texts, all of the knowledge in the academy, and had Revan, Nadd and a bunch of other lesser Sith, which is ahead of PoD.

On topic: Maul solos.

How did you come to conclusion it was early RoT Bane?

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#21 Posted by Zapan871 (2018 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

Could you or someone else post the full page the quote comes from?

Sure.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

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#22 Posted by Wolfrazer (16577 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Well Simus survived as nothing but a head in a jar. Though then again, that may have not been recorded.

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#23 Posted by Azronger (4336 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul solos 9/10. Kylo and Rey make it 10/10, but not a stomp.

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#24 Posted by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871 said:

@i_like_swords:

Could you or someone else post the full page the quote comes from?

Sure.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Thanks bro!

This confirms that the quote is simply referring to anyone and isn't in the context of the Brotherhood.

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225377-3.jpg

As the page shows, it isn't speaking in the context of the Brotherhood; it's simply supplemental information about Bane that is sprinkled throughout the article in other places. If it was written in the main bulk of the article where it describes Bane's rise through the academy and becoming a Dark Lord then sure, it'd be context dependant, but it's written in a totally separate of the article which is simply stating a fact. The same type of Fact File articles use the same supplemental paragraphs to point out Maul is "one of the most highly trained Sith in history", which clearly isn't context dependant despite the article describing Maul's life story.

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#25 Posted by WollfMyth209 (17489 posts) - - Show Bio
@wollfmyth209 said:
@i_like_swords said:
Also, apparently this is just PoD Bane, not even DoE. Taken from Fact File #22
Also, apparently this is just PoD Bane, not even DoE. Taken from Fact File #22

Early Rule of Two, actually. This is by the time he searched forbidden texts, all of the knowledge in the academy, and had Revan, Nadd and a bunch of other lesser Sith, which is ahead of PoD.

On topic: Maul solos.

How did you come to conclusion it was early RoT Bane?

Because:

  1. PoD Bane only has the knowledge of Revan and the academy.
  2. The section this quote is from mentions him going to Dxun, as well as other planets, and gaining the holocron of Freedon Nadd. So it seems like early RoT Bane to me.

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#26 Posted by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Well Simus survived as nothing but a head in a jar. Though then again, that may have not been recorded.

That's not really the point, though. The reason it's impressive regardless of what Maul actually did is that it hadn't occurred to Sidious that it's possible, despite having all of Bane's knowledge and then 1,000 years worth. Like I said, the feats themselves are always going to vary widely. Bane has better speed feats than Sidious just like Simus surviving as a head might be better than Maul surviving without legs, but it doesn't change the holistic intent.

That said, Maul didn't need to be preserved in a jar to stay alive, he did it by merit of his own power.

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#27 Posted by Pharoh_Atem (44360 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul solos.

Better in nearly every category that is anything.

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#28 Edited by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: Either that or it's referring to a Bane who would go on to become the most powerful ever, which we know now to be the Bane we saw in Dynasty of Evil. But I suppose it doesn't matter either way.

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#29 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

So what feats does canon maul have to say that hes better ?

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#30 Posted by WollfMyth209 (17489 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Possibly. Also, this doesn't pre-date Karpy's novels, it's a statement made in 2014... just thought I'd mention that.

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#31 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

I commend the trolling efforts!

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#32 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

Just to clarify though, are you actually serious with this?

@i_like_swords

So, in summary:

  • Bane is better than any Sith who came before him, on a factual level. Vitiate might be an exception because of his own newer accolades but that's not important.
  • Jadus easily falls into this category.
  • Through a myriad of near-enough undeniable pieces of evidence, Maul and Sheev's other apprentices are better than Bane.
  • Ergo, Maul is clearly better than Jadus. He solos.

I'm fine with the conclusion that Maul beats Jadus, and even Maul > Bane. The logic behind it though, to say the least, is utterly laughable. And the fact you're using quotes (one's that shit on the source material) to scale Maul, is a little bit transparent. I suppose I'll also object to using the non-canon opinion of Sam Witwer while I'm at it, who isn't more credible then any user here (he just isn't) in knowledge or authority. Though, the main problem is the feat-war propaganda. The double standards that feats are flimsy, while source-books quotes are infallible passages to determine battles (despite the latter having just as many; if not more conflictions). Use your brain : Bane isn't better than any of those who came before him, and Maul vs Bane can be dealt with as an independent matter.

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#33 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm fine with the conclusion that Maul beat Jadus, and even Maul > Bane

Delusional.

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#34 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio
@drk045 said:
@uchiha_macho said:

I'm fine with the conclusion that Maul beat Jadus, and even Maul > Bane

Delusional.

My quadry isn't with who beats who.

It's the logic those are trying pass of as arguments. Like @i_like_swords claiming Darth Maul is >>> Vitiate with blatant sophistry.

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#35 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL MAUL >>> VITIATE XDDDDDDDDDD

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#36 Posted by The_Drifter_ (372 posts) - - Show Bio

Rey and Kylo are very experienced and die within minutes, Maul was trained personally from a child to an adult by Darth sidious. That's when it gets tough. probably Maul.

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#37 Edited by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_drifter_ said:

Rey and Kylo are very experienced and die within minutes

lol uh okay.

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#38 Posted by josai34 (76 posts) - - Show Bio

The maul wank is real.

Listen, Im finding it really hard to believe RUle of two power scaling regardless of whether Maul was in that lineage.

Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge Palpatine as the most powerful Sith...but I'm not inclined to believe that all the Sith in the Rule of two were immediately more powerful or better trained than the ancient Sith. Until I see Maul or Dooku casually throwing around Sith Magic of Alchemy I'm going to hesitate calling them better trained.

I'm not saying Jaydus when's, but please use feats only not this weird ROT power scaling.

It's consistently proven the Jedi Order had degraded dramatically from the days of Revan and Bane. I wouldn't be surprised if you had Sith in the Rule of two who weren't more powerful than their previous master, but ascended through luck or trickery. So rule of two cannot be used to determine Mauls power accurately. Feats only please.

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#39 Edited by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045: If you look at the context of his sentence, you'll notice he states Rey and Kylo die in minutes. Which likely means he missed the "n't" in "are". There's no need to get snarky, bro.

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#40 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

Kylo or Maul solos.

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#41 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045: If you look at the context of his sentence, you'll notice he states Rey and Kylo die in minutes. Which likely means he missed the "n't" in "are". There's no need to get snarky, bro.

No its just that he goes on to complement them and then says they die in minutes.

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#42 Posted by Uchiha_Macho (92 posts) - - Show Bio

@drk045:

As I said, I have reason to believe his compliment, was a mistake of writing rather then intent.

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#43 Posted by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

@uchiha_macho:

I'm fine with the conclusion that Maul beat Jadus, and even Maul > Bane. The logic behind it though, to say the least, is utterly laughable. And the fact you're using quotes (one's that shit the source material) to scale Maul, is a bit transparent.

That's nice, and I am transparent. I'm not trying to conceal anything about my methods.

I suppose I'll also object to using the non canon opinion of Sam Witwer, who isn't more credible then any user here (he just isn't) in knowledge or authority.

Given that he was a member of the creative effort that resurrected Maul, who have full authority over where his character goes, gonna go ahead and disagree. Lucas helping out by saying Sidious didn't find Maul expendable, meaning he had a higher purpose, also aids my case.

Also, just look at it logically. If Maul was expendable, and wasn't fit to carry on the RoT, why the hell did he steal him from Talzin in the first place. Talzin was a powerful ally who had Dark Side knowledge Sidious coveted, you can't seriously suggest he started a personal war with her over Maul because he wanted to train a guy he had no personal investment in.

Though, the main problem is the feat-war propaganda. The double standards that feats are flimsy, while source-books quotes are infallible (despite the latter having just as many; if not more conflictions). Use your brain : Bane isn't better than any of those who came before him and Maul vs Bane can be dealt with as it's own matter/ thread.

Here's the problem; feats are subjective and down to interpretation. You can interpret a feat to whatever end you like, regardless of how wrong or right you may be. But it remains an interpretation and nothing else. Feats are frivolous because it varies ridiculously between writers. I'll give you a common example.

In some sources, Force users move "nearly faster than the eye can see". Sometimes they are naked to the human eye. Sometimes Magnaguards are faster than the eye can see and have "near-lightspeed reflexes" (RotS Novel), in other sources they move "nearly faster than the eye can see" (Labyrinth of Evil).

Bane's speed feats as DMB describes them (blitzing Sirak faster than a room of Sith can even perceive at a time where Kas'im would defeat Bane handily, then going on to defeat Kas'im handily, then in the RoT failing to deflect raindrops, and then in DoE making a mockery out of deflecting rain drops, indicating a huge speed increase) shit on Sidious' own speed feats. At least, it can be interpreted that way. But by using holistic evidence we know Sidious takes a giant dump on Bane.

But using fact-based sources that simply tell us what is up and what is down to reach our conclusions? A hell of a lot better. You actually have a scale you can put both characters on evenly for comparison, opposed to interpreting what Drew Karpyshyn thinks a Sith can do, with his writing that befits the subtlety of a toddler, versus a master like James Luceno who in comparison may make characters seem underwhelming.

And I think you can agree the examples of feats being flimsy are near enough countless. Krayt has inferior TK feats to subordinates like Darth Wredd. Rivi-Anu has a better TK feat than Yoda, who in one source is suggested to be incapable of lifting a certain number of those Muntuur stones, which only weigh something like a few tons each. OCW Anakin shortly after AotC has better TK feats than his later incarnations which are "far more powerful" than himself.

You simply can't rely on feats if there are examples of weaker characters having better feats than factually stronger ones. It's too subjective.

And sure, sourcebooks can have contradictions, like Vitiate being the ultimate avatar of the Dark Side, and all of his accolades. It's called a retcon. By accolades Vitiate very well could be better than Bane (though honestly I don't know or care enough about Vitiate and the context of his accolades to determine where he stands).

It's the logic those are trying pass of as arguments. Like @i_like_swords claiming Darth Maul is >>> Vitiate with blatant sophistry.

For the record, I'm perfectly aware Vitiate has way better feats than Maul and Bane put together. The thing is that I don't care about feats, so if Vitiate didn't have his accolades and the holistic intent of his character (a poor rehash of Sidious), I wouldn't put him over Bane. But he does, so I probably do, and also Maul by extension.

The real source of confusion is the disparity in feats and power relationships. Sidious and Yoda are the most powerful Jedi and Sith up to their time, so you'd think it'd be readily apparent that the weaker characters in their era are also pretty badass? Well, they are; you have Anakin and Windu who are pretty blatant powerhouses, but after that? Dooku? Maul? What feats have they got that match up to these Ancient Sith who are holding together capital ships, slaughtering armies of Jedi, ripping the cores out of suns, and in general lifting/destroying massive shit with TK? The Dread Masters? Soa? Nihilus? Giga Drain and Force Wounds? Teleportation?

Truthfully, nothing. PT and TCW storytelling is far more grounded and the feats by proxy aren't always as grandiose as bioware and 80s/90s comics. You have the odd outliers like Rivi-Anu but it's not as consistently outlandish as TOR etc.

I chalk it up not to there being some ridiculously huge gulf between Maul/Dooku and Sidious, but rather just different authorial interpretations of what they want their characters to do. If you put Maul/Dooku in SWTOR or under Drew Karpyshyn's pen, you can guarantee their feats would be awesome, just like Luceno or Stover wrote SWTOR characters or Bane their feats would plummet. Obviously a game is going to blow the Force out of proportion way more than the original movies and any material that descend from them. It's a different audience and a different experience.

Hope that clears up what I'm going for.

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#44 Edited by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

@josai34 said:

It's consistently proven the Jedi Order had degraded dramatically from the days of Revan and Bane. I wouldn't be surprised if you had Sith in the Rule of two who weren't more powerful than their previous master, but ascended through luck or trickery. So rule of two cannot be used to determine Mauls power accurately. Feats only please.

Not really. The PT is host to Yoda, the most powerful Jedi up to his time, Windu, the second most powerful up to his time, and Anakin, the Chosen One who had the potential to become the most powerful Force user ever (all confirmed either by creator commentary or sourcebooks). It's stated by Lucas the PT was meant to be the Jedi seen in their prime.

And as for RoT Sith not truly surpassing their master, this is wrong; brand new sources like Force and Destiny state conclusively that each Sith in the Rule of Two, at some point, became more powerful than their master. I'm not making this shit up for fun.

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#45 Posted by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

In other words:

*clears throat*, dear Bane and Old Republic fans.

All hail the Movie era, a time of fantastic storytelling, interesting characters and holistic superiority
All hail the Movie era, a time of fantastic storytelling, interesting characters and holistic superiority

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#46 Posted by josai34 (76 posts) - - Show Bio

Feats please? Forgive me for not trusting Lucas on these things. A batman writer can say that he can bray Spider-Man but we all know that Bruce doesn't have the feats to do so.

A writer can say what they like but unless it matches the reality of what occurs in the work it's pointless.

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#47 Posted by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

@josai34 said:

Feats please? Forgive me for not trusting Lucas on these things. A batman writer can say that he can bray Spider-Man but we all know that Bruce doesn't have the feats to do so.

A writer can say what they like but unless it matches the reality of what occurs in the work it's pointless.

Terrible example. A Batman writer has no control over Marvel or it's characters. Lucas at the time of his quote had full creative control over Star Wars, because, well, he frigging made it.

What the creator says about their own creation is reality.

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#48 Posted by josai34 (76 posts) - - Show Bio

Iya not perfect example but it gets the point across. And no, what a writer says about their work is not reality when it directly contradicts what occurs in the actual work. If they wish to do so it will have to be put into the actual story either with a retcon or by simply increasing feats with more backstory.

As it stands, the old republic far outstrips the movie in powerful feats.

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#49 Posted by i_like_swords (26356 posts) - - Show Bio

@josai34:

Iya not perfect example but it gets the point across.

Lmao, right, a DC writer making statements about a Marvel characters is totally equatable to George Lucas describing George Lucas-land. This is the equivalent of taking a comic book that has "Legends" (which means non-Canon, to be perfectly clear) written on the front of it and saying "eh, screw the people who own Star Wars, I want this to be Canon so it is!".

Doesn't that sound ridiculous? That's because it is. Creator = God.

And no, what a writer says about their work is not reality when it directly contradicts what occurs in the actual work.

And what contradiction would that be, exactly? Are you seriously suggesting that George Lucas has to justify his statements about his own Canon universe to bioware developers who have been rendered "Legends" by Disney? That's nuts.

If they wish to do so it will have to be put into the actual story either with a retcon or by simply increasing feats with more backstory. As it stands, the old republic far outstrips the movie in powerful feats.

Nah. But I can see that there's no getting through to you so I'm gonna go ahead and cut it short here.

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#50 Posted by Drk045 (1025 posts) - - Show Bio

@josai34:

Iya not perfect example but it gets the point across.

Lmao, right, a DC writer making statements about a Marvel characters is totally equatable to George Lucas describing George Lucas-land. This is the equivalent of taking a comic book that has "Legends" (which means non-Canon, to be perfectly clear) written on the front of it and saying "eh, screw the people who own Star Wars, I want this to be Canon so it is!".

Doesn't that sound ridiculous? That's because it is. Creator = God.

And no, what a writer says about their work is not reality when it directly contradicts what occurs in the actual work.

And what contradiction would that be, exactly? Are you seriously suggesting that George Lucas has to justify his statements about his own Canon universe to bioware developers who have been rendered "Legends" by Disney? That's nuts.

If they wish to do so it will have to be put into the actual story either with a retcon or by simply increasing feats with more backstory. As it stands, the old republic far outstrips the movie in powerful feats.

Nah. But I can see that there's no getting through to you so I'm gonna go ahead and cut it short here.

Lucas words are pretty irrelevant now. What disney says it what fly's.