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#1 Posted by Discipulus (704 posts) - - Show Bio

Rules

  • SWTOR versions for Marr and Jadus.
  • Legends prime versions for Kyle and Jaden.
  • They start 20m apart in the pictured location.
  • They fight in character.

Lords of the Dark Council: Darth Jadus, Darth Marr

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Masters of the New Jedi Order: Kyle Katarn, Jaden Korr

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Location

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#2 Edited by echostarlord117 (5615 posts) - - Show Bio

Team two would win for sure. They're far better duelists and more potent TK. The only thing team one has on team two is power variety, but who knows how helpful that'd be.

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#3 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio

The sith concilors win with ease...

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#4 Posted by Vitisid (1199 posts) - - Show Bio

Team two would win for sure. They're far better duelists and more potent TK. The only thing team one has on team two is power variety, but who knows how helpful that'd be.

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#5 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3862 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't Jadus pretty much featless? I certainly don't remember any feats for him. Regardless I'd say Marr is the strongest here but by virtue of Jadus being featless I'll give team 2 the win.

@xolthol: Feats for Jadus?

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#6 Posted by BreakOfDawn (2023 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: He's second only to the Emperor...according to an agent who's probably never met any of the Dark Council members.

Team 2 takes this.

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#7 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3862 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn: Marr has a simair accolade and actually has feats to back it up so I don't think that's anything worth noting.

Again if Jadus is featless team 2.

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#8 Edited by BreakOfDawn (2023 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: I know, just taking a cheap shot at some people who think it's enough to put him up against far more powerful Jedi and Sith.

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#9 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3862 posts) - - Show Bio

@breakofdawn: Yeah I completely agree. Jadus having one accolade from an agent who's probably never even met any members of The Dark Council which is contradicted by a far more verifiable source (The SWTOR Codex) isn't good enough. People get accolades like this all the time in SW and they really need actual feats to back them up otherwise they're not verifiable.

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#10 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

I will do a little recapitulation of what we know about Jadus in the evening.

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#11 Posted by Richard96 (5732 posts) - - Show Bio

Katarn can solo.

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#12 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3862 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by the_wspanialy (4017 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 with ease. Katarn is clear MVP and might even solo.

Online
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#14 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

We have three mains things for Jadus:

  1. He is a member of the Dark Council
  2. He have "held" the remainder of his flagship
  3. He was qualified by Valkorion to be the best Sith of the empire

I-Member of the Dark council:

Even though this isn't so impressive this would allow him to be on the top guys of the sith empire. Logically he his above nearly all other sith lords of the era. I didn't have the time to do a scaling in order to show you what he should be able to do but you can easily find some feat for non-councilor sith member if you look for it on CV or KMC.

II-The Dominator feat:

This is the quote that we have :

“The shvash gas incinerated only part of the ship. My power held together the remains.”

—Darth Jadus (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Here two theory:

  • ILS one explaining that the gas didn't destroy so much in the ship so this is at most a low feat
  • Mine arguing that the explosion heavily damaged the ship so this is a pretty huge feat

I will defend my point here then explaining why this is an impressive feat.

A- an heavily damaged ship

First of all Jadus explain that his power "held together the remains". The definition from the Cambridge dictionnary : "pieces or parts of something that continue to exist when most of it has been used, destroyed, or taken away:" of remains. As you can see the use of the word remains implied that most of the ship have been destroyed.

In addition, we have also the fact that the Dominator was the flagship of Jadus so easy to identify. But when cipher 9 and watcher 2 when on the ship weren't able to identify that they are on Jadus own ship.

Cipher 9 : "I thought you died on the Dominator"

Jadus : " No. This is what remains of the Dominator and his passengers."

Indeed watcher 2 was able to say that "this starship is a modified imperial dreadnaught" but wasn't able to identify it.

So as you can seethe dominator have been so damaged that the intelligent service of the empire wasn't able to identify it.

Last but not least, we have seen Jadus shaking in a mere access of rage the Dominator and didn't seem to be exhausted by any margin.

No Caption Provided

So if he can shake the Dominator without any difficulty it didn't seem impossivle for him to hold the ship.

B-An impressive feat

First of all the dreadnaught of the empire at this period was the Harrower-class around 800 meters long

No Caption Provided

So holding this ship is pretty impressive as a base feat. But this isn't the only feat, in order to escape the detector of the imperial intelligence, the ship must have jump into hyperspace. Obviously Jadus must have hold the ship with his power this pretty impressing knowing that the ship have been damaged so the parts of the ship won't received the same amount of power from the reactors. Jadus must not only hold the ship as one in static but also in dynamic. To draw a simple comparison this is like a snowball. If the snow is compact (like a normal ship) it will be easy to throw it up to a point but if the snowball is not compact (like the dominator after the explosion) it will break in countless pieces and won't go really far. This is clearly an impressive feat.

III-The "best sith" quote:

Valkorion said that "Jadus was the best sith my empire have produce". If this is true, it place Jadus in a really high position.

The questions that we have are:

  1. Is Valkorion lying ? (trying to made cipher 9 proud in order to control him easily)
  2. What is the meaning of "best" ?
  3. What is the value of Valkorion claims ?

1°) If we follow the idea that Valkorion is lying it should have been logic to see the same done for every single characters that you can played. But for exemple WotE II who have defeat a really impressive Baras didn't received such praising from Valkorion. And the same can be see for all the other classes. So by logic we can agree on the fact that Jadus is really seen by Valks as the "best" sith of the empire.

2°) Here the word "best" can bee seen on lots of topics: power, intelligence, free mind, military power, economic one. It seems pretty obvious that the economic domain isn't concern here. The military power is also to reject knowing that the imperial army is under the tutelage of the Dark council in his totality so under the command of Marr. The intelligence point of view can be argue but it seems pretty vague knowing that other sith have done really impressive machination in order to earn something (Like Zash to take the body of Nox, Baras to usurp the place of Voice of the emperor, Angral in order to take down the republic thanks its own weapons,.. ) and I really don't see why Jadus manipulation is more impressive that the other one, so we can reject the topic of the intelligence. Remains the free mind and the power.

The free mind is the fact that Jadus shouldn't have been bound to "irrelevant dogma" (like Marr is qualified to be). But in the whole chapter 1 of the story arc of cipher 9 we can see that Jadus exactly act like a sith: killing someone that he dislikes, betraying the empire for his personnal profit, cheating on the whole Dark Council by feigning his own death, transforming the people that he have take with him on the dominator by the fear in order for them to seems like him, trying to reorganize the galaxy at his own image, and so on ... Clearly this is exactly what a sith do. We have absolutely not fact from Jadus where he actes differently than a sith. So clearly the free mind seems illogic.

The only one which remain is in term of force power. It is pretty logic knowing that the only things which matter in Valkorion mind is power. Not only his own power but the power of the people who can interrest him (for exemple the Outlander).

Because of all of this we can agree on the fact that when Valkorion use the word "best" he is talking about force powers.

3°)Now the problem that remains is the value of this claim, compare to all the quotes which put Marr as the second most powerful sith lord of the empire. As we know Valkorion know what happend in the sith empire, but he also know the dark council. He must particularly known its leader known as Marr and he should have a deep understanding of his power. Moreover, we know that prime Baras was so powerful that he can feigned to be the Voice of the emperor, even in front of Marr himself. Knowing the huge gap between Marr and Vitiate this is a clear proof that Baras at prime is far above Marr.

So we have an emperor who exactly knows the power of Marr, the fact that the quotes which put Marr at the top of the empire have been already prooven false and the fact that Baras (who is above Marr in his prime) haven't been qualified as the best sith. All of this allow us to think that Valkorion is more than legit to judge the power of Jadus and that he is true.

At least if you disagree with that (after all you can be illogic) you can acknowledge that this is a quote which put him in the top dogs of the Dark Council and that this speaks volume for Jadus capacities.

Conclusion:

As I have just shown, Jadus is a pretty impressive sith lord who is far from garbage and have a really impressive power. The addition of him to Marr is more than enough to give the sith team the win in this match up.

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#15 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3862 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol: Nice post. I was wondering if you could link me the debunks to Marr's accolade as I'm curious as to where it was debunked.

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#16 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: Thank you guy.

I was wondering if you could link me the debunks to Marr's accolade as I'm curious as to where it was debunked.

We didn't have any debunked which have been done. Just the fact that Baras in prime was part of the Dark Council and was above Marr. Indeed he was considered by the whole Dark Council (Marr included) as the Voice of the Emperor. When you know the truly huge gap that existed between Marr and the emperor we must acknowledge that if Baras was considered to be the voice he would be just so powerful that Marr himself should be just a fodder to him.

We know that WotE II defeat Baras. Is it a proof that WotE II is above Marr ? Well this is an difficult point but even though you consider WotE II to be less powerful than Marr just remember that the Baras when defeated was not in prime. The whole plot of the the Act III of the Wrath story arc is to decrease Baras power in order to take him down. The most significant part have been done on Corellia where the sith Warrior have break the link between Baras and the Entity. An interesting point is that even after Baras being past-prime his power remain impressive enough for Marr not to decide who between WotE II and Baras is the true emperor choosen one.

So factually we have that Marr is below Baras (at least at his prime) so this his a clear proof that Marr's accolades can be wrong.

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#17 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3862 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol:

Thing is though Marr's accolades happen as of the DLC so Baras being better than Marr has little relevance to disproving Marr's accolades.

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#18 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: Sorry but I missed your point... Can you explain it more clearly ?

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#19 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3862 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol: Just came back and realised my post was kind of unclear. Basically my point was that Marr's accoldes of being the best in The Empire all happen post class storyline so by this point Baras was dead so him being better than Marr has little consequence as Marr would be the most powerful in The Empire now because Baras died at the end of The Sith Warrior Storyline.

This does not debunk Marr's accolades.

I'd also like to point out that Valkorion saying Jadus was the best Sith The Empire ever produced isn't really evidence of Jadus>Marr.

My counters for this are as follows:

1. The fact of the matter is Cipher 9 outsmarted Jadus IIRC and seen as Valkorion is prasing you for defeating him it should logically mean when he says best he is referring to intelligence because it makes no sense for him to praise Jadus's combat skills when he was outsmarted not defeated in combat.

2. This is further backed up by Jadus being head of Imperial Intelligence IIRC which shows his great intellect. In fact Jadus's plans in game suggest he's incredibly cunning which is futher backed up by the SWTOR codex describing him as brilliant.

"(Darth Jadus is reclusive and enigmatic, even among the Sith. He is cold, seething, and brilliant, and of all the members of the Dark Council is the least prone to rage, to laugh, to show any sign of the passions that fuel the dark side. Whatever passion Jadus has, whatever fuels him, only he knows. His humanity has long since been purged. Since his ascension to the council, Jadus has remained removed from the power struggles of his peers, instead concentrating his influence on Imperial Intelligence. Although other Sith control their own spy networks, it is Jadus who oversees the galaxy’s largest espionage organization (albeit primarily through advisers and intermediaries). Jadus’s servants are never Sith; instead, his favored agents are ordinary citizens uplifted to greatness, terrified of their lord but possessed of an almost religious zealotry.)"

Credit: Star Wars The Old Republic - Darth Jadus Codex Entry

3. Valkorion believed The Sith Code to be archaic and restrictive and therefore hated those like Marr who followed it.

Valkorion's comments on Darth Marr:

"("He was narrow minded... bound by irrelevant ancient dogma. But I think you are different.")"

Credit: Star Wars The Old Republic Knights of the Fallen Empire - Valkorion to The Outlander

Meanwhile contrast this with Jadus who betrayed The Empire and did not openly express rage, kept his thoughts to himself, was described as the least Sith like of The Dark Council and kept himself out of power struggles.

"(Darth Jadus is reclusive and enigmatic, even among the Sith. He is cold, seething, and brilliant, and of all the members of the Dark Council is the least prone to rage, to laugh, to show any sign of the passions that fuel the dark side. Whatever passion Jadus has, whatever fuels him, only he knows. His humanity has long since been purged. Since his ascension to the council, Jadus has remained removed from the power struggles of his peers, instead concentrating his influence on Imperial Intelligence. Although other Sith control their own spy networks, it is Jadus who oversees the galaxy’s largest espionage organization (albeit primarily through advisers and intermediaries). Jadus’s servants are never Sith; instead, his favored agents are ordinary citizens uplifted to greatness, terrified of their lord but possessed of an almost religious zealotry.)"

Credit: Star Wars The Old Republic - Darth Jadus Codex Entry

Jadus sounds a lot more like the kind of Sith Valkorion would praise hold in high esteem and when Valkorion says best he most likely means overall intelligence, power, morals and character traits ect ect.

In fact Valkorion when talking about Jadus even says Jadus was the best Sith of The Empire but noted he was still deeply flawed implying he was also referring to character traits, values and not just power like you're insinuating.

Here is the quote:

"("Darth Jadus. The best Sith my Empire ever produced, but still deeply flawed - and no match for you.")"

Credit: Star Wars The Old Republic Knights of the Fallen Empire - Valkorion to The Outlander

Basically there is no way Valkorion is talking about soley power and this is actively supported by the game. There is no evidence to suggest we can scale him above everyone in The Empire and I most certainly would not put him above Marr when Marr was the leader of The Dark Council, stated to be the best in The Empire (post class storylines) and has feats which put him over Jadus.

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#20 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by deactivated-5be85ba9d64f1 (712 posts) - - Show Bio

Sith kabobs anyone?

Team 2 wins easily.

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#22 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: I will answer to your points in one maybe two weeks... I'm too busy to make a quick response.

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#23 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3862 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Basically my point was that Marr's accoldes of being the best in The Empire all happen post class storyline so by this point Baras was dead so him being better than Marr has little consequence as Marr would be the most powerful in The Empire now because Baras died at the end of The Sith Warrior Storyline.

This does not debunk Marr's accolades.

I didn't remember that Marr accolade was after the story arc. Even though it's true it automatically debunks Marr> Jadus. Indeed, Jadus have left the empire during cipher 9 story so he is no more part of it, so the quote didn't apply to him.

1. The fact of the matter is Cipher 9 outsmarted Jadus IIRC and seen as Valkorion is prasing you for defeating him it should logically mean when he says best he is referring to intelligence because it makes no sense for him to praise Jadus's combat skills when he was outsmarted not defeated in combat.

Cipher 9 outsmarted Jadus but was still able to face him during a non insignifiant period of time. This is pretty impressive knowing the power of Jadus.

Just to remember this is the quote:

"Darth Jadus. The best Sith my Empire ever produced, but still deeply flawed - and no match for you."

Here Cipher 9 is praised by Valkorion who show him that he is worthy to have been choosen as a vessel. The "no match for you" is easily explain by the fact that even with his huge force power which made it the best sith of the empire you have been able to win against him, surviving an impressive confrontation.

2. This is further backed up by Jadus being head of Imperial Intelligence IIRC which shows his great intellect. In fact Jadus's plans in game suggest he's incredibly cunning which is futher backed up by the SWTOR codex describing him as brilliant.

Being at the head of the intelligence service isn't a proof that he is the most intelligent... Dark Acina was the keeper of the Arcanum but wasn't more specialized in technology than other sith. Even in term of sheer logic, you can rule something whitout being a specialist of it, you just need to have the good guys backing you.

The codex description of Jadus is pretty vague. We have some similar qqualification for Baras and Decimus this didn't proove that they are supremely genius:

BARAS: Entrusted by the Emperor and the Dark Council to oversee the negotiations leading to the Treaty of Coruscant, Darth Baras has long held sway within the highest layers of the Sith Order. His power base of secret spies and well-placed minions stretches across the galaxy, enabling him to orchestrate and manipulate events from the shadows.

DECIMUS: He is a man of great vision, and it is even said that the Force grants him glimpses of disturbances yet to come. Methodical and calculating, Baras is a true master of the dark arts, and some say the future of the Empire.

Known for his brilliant military strategies and his ability to cunningly exploit any situation for his own personal gain, Darth Decimus ascended to the Dark Council after the unexpected death of Darth Azamin at the hands of a Jedi strike team toward the end of the last war.

So clearly the intelligence trait isn't so develop in Jadus regarding his fellow siths. Moreover, as I have already explain, the plan of Jadus isn't so impressive when you see the plot done by guys like Baras, Zash, Angral,...

3. Valkorion believed The Sith Code to be archaic and restrictive and therefore hated those like Marr who followed it.

I have already address this point before....

Meanwhile contrast this with Jadus who betrayed The Empire and did not openly express rage, kept his thoughts to himself, was described as the least Sith like of The Dark Council and kept himself out of power struggles.

Have you read what I have writte before ? It seems that you haven't :

The free mind is the fact that Jadus shouldn't have been bound to "irrelevant dogma" (like Marr is qualified to be). But in the whole chapter 1 of the story arc of cipher 9 we can see that Jadus exactly act like a sith: killing someone that he dislikes, betraying the empire for his personnal profit, cheating on the whole Dark Council by feigning his own death, transforming the people that he have take with him on the dominator by the fear in order for them to seems like him, trying to reorganize the galaxy at his own image, and so on ... Clearly this is exactly what a sith do. We have absolutely not fact from Jadus where he actes differently than a sith. So clearly the free mind seems illogic.

Here, my use of free-mind can must be understand as "not following the sith code".

I will add to this that the codex entry didn't state that Jadus is the less sith of the dark council, just that he is the one who most hide his anger, rage and so on. In addition the struggling with his peers is clearly false knowing that all of his plot from the chapter 1 is focused on destroying the other members of the Dark Council and put them under his own lead. And as you know when a quote and a feat are directly contradicting each other the logic rule have that the quote is false.

Jadus sounds a lot more like the kind of Sith Valkorion would praise hold in high esteem and when Valkorion says best he most likely means overall intelligence, power, morals and character traits ect ect.

Clearly I didn't see why.

In fact Valkorion when talking about Jadus even says Jadus was the best Sith of The Empire but noted he was still deeply flawed implying he was also referring to character traits, values and not just power like you're insinuating.

Ehhh.... I'm sorry but I disagree with you. As I have show you here and in my precedent post power is logically what Valkorion praised Jadus of.

"("Darth Jadus. The best Sith my Empire ever produced, but still deeply flawed - and no match for you.")"

Credit: Star Wars The Old Republic Knights of the Fallen Empire - Valkorion to The Outlander

Indeed Jadus was deeply flawed because like the everyone else at this period in the empire and in the republic, he only use one side of the force not both of them like the Eternal empire do. Once again this must be understand on the power aspect and this is clearly not a problem.

Basically there is no way Valkorion is talking about soley power and this is actively supported by the game. There is no evidence to suggest we can scale him above everyone in The Empire

As I've just shown obviously it is mainly refering to power.

I most certainly would not put him above Marr when Marr was the leader of The Dark Council, stated to be the best in The Empire (post class storylines) and has feats which put him over Jadus.

Can you provide me this feat please ? I didn't recall anyone which can put him above the Dominator feat.

Now even though we disagree on Marr and Jadus level, we can at least agree that they are both really powerful and that their team can destroy the jedi one.

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#25 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3862 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol: I might get back to this sometime next week. Don't really have the energy right now and I'm pre-occupied with other things.

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#26 Posted by xolthol (975 posts) - - Show Bio