Darth Caedus VS Darth Vader & Galen Marek

Location:

• No prep, random encounter
• Morals off
• Standard equipment
• All characters are in their prime
• They start 30 meters apart

Caedus would definitely solo either but he's outmatched against both.

/thread

Team

Depends how fast Caedus is capable of defeating one.

Either way for me

@emperordmb said:

I'm not convinced at all that Caedus would solo either individually.

Either way he still loses this.

Caedus could solo if he's smart enough and gets the oppurtunity to just take out marek with the force, but otherwise he loses.

Team wins.

Caedus dies.

What's with the sudden change of opinion on Caedus? People used to think he could take a majority against Vader and Dooku at the same time.

Not sure how the team wins this, lol. Caedus handily.

Caedus loses. He'd solo Starkiller or Vader, but Vader is a challenge in sabers, and he's not instakilling Starkiller.

prolly has to do with how much vader and dooku have been raised. Additionally there were misconceptions about luke and caedus's duel. Still raising vader also raises caedus thanks to scaling

Team loses

A better understanding of Caedus' own abilities

A debunking of some of his feats, ie; he never deflected genuine turbo laser fire

A better review of his fights with Luke, Kyle's strike team, Mara Jade, Jaina

A grasp of how good Jaina was when she defeated Caedus - she admits herself to be worse than all of the council masters at the time (I'm aware of the circumstances that hindered Caedus)

People now know that Aurra Sing fought Caedus, and put up a decent fight

People know that Caedus was pinned down by a single Mandalorian warrior in LOTF

People know that he failed to Force grip Mara in their fight while in a weakened state

What Caedus still has going for him

- a quote putting his command of the Force above Vaders own. So that most likely means he can solo either two. But in brutal fights. He looses agasint this team everytime though.

It's worth noting also that many of Caedus' TK feats, while good, aren't scrtaching the surface of Starkillers and Vaders best.

Doesn't matter.

19bby Vader while collapsed a cathedral (around 200 meters low end) in a near death state. Which as far as TK goes, is better than anything Caedus has done. Factor in his growth since then and TFU and you have Starkiller. As I said before.

I also don't remember the term "massively boosted being used to describe SK in the Force Unleashed. "Exaggerated" maybe, but Ceadus has about 20 x more material to draw from, all of which are inconsistent in power portrayal, yet he still looses a feats contest.

@richard96:

Caedus isn't winning anything close to a majority, LOL.

Caedus.

They were talking about game mechanics. Cutscenes and novels are fair game. Plus Blackman also said that Marek and by extension his clone from TFUII, is a top tier fore user, and is supposed to be what Luke would have been if he had joined Vader.

Caedus, good fight.

Vader and Starkiller in a good fight.

That feat is blown out of proportion. Altering the course of an already falling star destroyer is not beyond Yoda's capabilities.

Caedus definitely beats either, but it's a bit murky on how it would play out, together. I don't see Caedus winning a majority against this team. Starkiller may not be as great with dueling, but he can contend in the Force.

I don't know what you were watching or reading. He didn't pull it out of the sky, with TK, much less crushed it. The ship was already falling as a result of the shipyard being destroyed via the ore canon on Raxus Prime. Hell, Galen even says it's already falling and headed right towards him. Here, I'll even post the video and the excerpt from the novel.

Kota’s voice unexpectedly came in reply. “What’s going on, boy?”

Can’t you see it, he wanted to say, then realized who he was talking to. He described the scene in as few words as he could, unable to tear his gaze away from the sight of the disintegrating shipyards. Huge, molten chunks were tearing free and tumbling either out into deep space or down into lower orbits while further explosions continued to tear the facility apart. The scaffolding around the nearly completed Star Destroyer had bent and torn completely away, leaving the ship free to power down into the atmosphere of Raxus Prime. Already it was visible as a distinct triangle glowing orange around its leading edges and conning tower. It was coming directly toward him.

It was aiming for him.

“Juno can’t fly the ship at the moment,” said Kota firmly, “and neither can PROXY. We have to find another solution.”

“What’s wrong with Juno?”

“Concentrate on what’s important, boy. That Star Destroyer is coming down fast. You’ll never get clear in time. You need to pull it into the cannon.”

The apprentice was temporarily lost for words when he realized what Kota was suggesting.

Kota wanted him to move the Star Destroyer using nothing but the Force.

“You’re insane,” he gasped. “It’s massive!”

“What is mass?” Kota said. “It’s all in your mind, boy. You’re a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!”

Kota’s voice had changed. The surly, drunken slur was completely absent; in its place was the durasteel bark of the seasoned combat veteran the apprentice had first met.

“Can you hear me, boy? Reach out and grab that ship, or you’ll die on this trash heap!”

The Star Destroyer was growing visibly larger and hung like a burning, triangular moon low in the sky of Raxus Prime.

You’re a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!

He wasn’t a Jedi but the message was the same. The Force didn’t recognize big or small, heavy or light, hard or easy. The living flows of the galaxy encompassed all scales, from the very small to the extremely large. The Star Destroyer was part of it, and so was he. The Force bound them as surely as gravity. He could make its invisible muscles flex, if he dared.

Had his Master ever done anything like this? Had the Emperor? Had any Sith or Jedi in the history of the galaxy?

He doubted anyone would ever know about his success or failure in the next few minutes.

“Be quick about it, boy!”

Fast or slow were also irrelevant to the Force, but the apprentice took Kota’s point. The sooner he started, the sooner it would be done.

Deactivating his lightsaber and attaching the hilt to his belt, he adopted the opening stance of the Soresu form, with his right arm and fingers outstretched, pointing at the Star Destroyer. His empty left hand he tucked in next to his heart. With his legs braced firmly in the trash, he reached as deep as he had ever reached into the Force, and then went farther still, feeling as though a mighty chasm had opened up under him and his mind and will plunged down into it. The chasm filled. His mind opened. The physical existence of the Star Destroyer slid painlessly inside.

Nearly sixteen hundred meters long and capable of carrying a crew in excess of thirty-seven thousand, the ship was a familiar design. Its engines and armament weren’t fully installed, but its Class One hyperdrive would have taken it anywhere in the Empire at speed, there to deploy walkers, fighters, barges, and shuttles. Armed with a host of turbolaser and ion cannons, plus no less than ten tractor beams, it could have blockaded an entire system on its own. The reinforced durasteel hull was solid enough to rip a gouge in Raxus Prime that might take centuries to fill. Scavenger droids would have a field day when it came down.

Wherever it went down …

There is no wherever, he told himself. There is only where I tell it to.

Focus.

The tip of his right index finger and the Star Destroyer became as one in his mind. Every nut and bolt and plate and wire of the massive machine was contained within that tiny space. It wasn’t hard to move an arm, a finger, a single human cell. He could direct one barely without thinking, so why not the other, too? Instinct was clearer on that point than the workings of his mind. Ignoring perspective, the two were about the same size in his field of vision.

Except the Star Destroyer was growing larger with each passing second, and waves of TIE fighters and TIE bombers were pouring forth from its brand-new hangar decks. Laserfire cut huge super-hot channels through the atmosphere ahead of them.

The apprentice ignored it all. While the illusion held, he moved his hand a very slight distance to his right. The sensation of containing a vast, million-ton machine in the tip of one finger was deeply disorienting. He felt as though every muscle fiber, nerve, and bone groaned along with the metal seams and joints of the ship. What it felt, he felt, too, and even a small acceleration had a profound effect on such a large scale. It resisted with all the momentum it possessed. Hatches swang open; rivets popped; bulkheads twisted; pipes burst.

The Star Destroyer didn’t appear to have moved much in the sky. It was still coming in low on the horizon, aiming to pass over him and strafe him from above. He shifted his hand a second time, but instead of changing its course he mistakenly gave it a slight tumble. He needed to apply the Force the right way for this to work, taking the growing forces of friction and the shifting of its center of gravity into account. A spinning Star Destroyer would do more damage than one burying itself nose-first into the cannon and its superstructure. Damage was good, when it came to destroying the Emperor’s handiwork, but too much damage could destroy him and perhaps the Rogue Shadow as well under a deadly rain of molten shrapnel.

Bring it down in one piece, he told himself. Bring it down hard.

The ship growled and squealed in metal torment. He was getting the hang of it; he could see how its course was slowly shifting. As wide across as his outstretched hand now, it was hitting the atmosphere at a steeper angle than he had intended, burning bright red and already gouting a trail of black smoke and sparkling debris. He became aware of a sound communicated through his feet: a rumbling much deeper and more sustained than the pounding of the cannon, which had fallen silent after the firing of the third projectile. The Star Destroyer’s incomplete frame was acting like a giant tube, and the atmosphere was resonating inside. His whole body sang with it.

More. The Star Destroyer was really picking up speed now. The thickening atmosphere had a slight braking effect, but nothing could prevent the inevitable. It was going to hit soon. A wild exodus of droids ran past him, fleeing the crash site. The TIE fighters it had launched raced ahead of the chaotic atmospheric waves it generated. He ignored them and concentrated on shifting ground zero as close to the cannon as he could.

Sparks danced in front of his eyes. The edges of his vision faded to black. Light and dark swirls spun around him, wraith-like. He felt momentarily faint and wondered if it was possible to dissolve into the Force. He was a speck caught in the updraft over a forest fire—yet somehow he had the audacity to try to command the fire to do his will.

Who did he think he was?

A sudden panic almost made him lose control. The Star Destroyer, now a burning, shrieking meteor, filled his entire forward vision. The hull was peeling away in fiery, golden strips, each one weighing hundreds of tons, exposing the darker skeleton beneath. It looked like a death’s-head, a ghastly mask not dissimilar to his Master’s, but one molten like lava. This could well be the end of everything, he thought distantly. Of him, of his plans, of his feelings for Juno, and of the boy called Galen who had lost a father a long time ago and whose grief had already been effectively erased.

But his name had survived, and names had power. The apprentice clutched at it with desperation, needing to regain control of the Star Destroyer lest it tear itself apart and disperse the impact. He needed to find his focus again, to ignore the feeling of dissolution eating at the edges of his self, and to tip the balance of power back toward him.

Galen had stood up to Darth Vader as little more than a child. Galen had wrested the lightsaber from a Dark Lord of the Sith and stood bravely in the face of death. Galen may have been ground down by years of training and darkness since, but was he truly gone—or had he just gone into hiding until the opportunity came to emerge back into the light?

Are you there, Galen? I need your help!

No answer came.

The Star Destroyer’s catastrophic reentry made the world shake. There was no time to try again.

For Juno, then.

He gritted his teeth and snarled at the sky. The dead weight of the Star Destroyer shifted one last time, changing its angle of descent just enough to hang together those last few hundred meters, but not enough to risk bouncing. Only seconds remained before it hit and it was still getting bigger. It was impossible that the sky could contain so much metal!

Abandoning his control over the ship, knowing there was nothing now that he could do to alter its course, the apprentice staggered backward, dazed. The Force fled from him, leaving him wrung out and drained. With a sound like the world ending, the Star Destroyer completed its first and final journey. It hit the cannon, exactly as it was supposed to, and the sky turned white. The ground buckled beneath the apprentice’s feet. He pinwheeled, unable to find his balance, as a tsunami of junk and waste rose up ahead of him and blotted out the sun.

-- The Force Unleashed

The team wins this.

@richard96 said:

Caedus would beat comfortably Vader .

Comfortably? Hmm... Solidly? Yes. Nearly if not every time? OK. Comfortably? Not so sure. Caedus is much faster, but that doesn't automatically make it into a speedblitz. Caedus's duel with GM Luke is often taken out of proportion.

Vader should at least be a threat to Caedus, given this:

Katarn, though, was a threat.

Legacy of the Force: Fury

Vader>Katarn. Vader also has very good power feats and accolades, indicating that Caedus isn't gonna ragdoll him:

He's roughly 80 percent of Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord in history, and the most powerful being in SW (save for GM Luke and astral beings such as the ones)

So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him.

George Lucas

ANH Vader has been stated to be more powerful than Anakin Skywalker.

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

Beware the Sith

This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.

A New Hope novel

And by ESB/ROTJ, Vader is far more formidable than he was in ANH:

Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.

Insider #62

Per Darth Sidious, DE Luke CAN become what Vader was, suggesting that Luke has not surpassed or even reached Vader's level.

Yes, that mask inspired terror throughout the galaxy but the feeble heart within was forever possessed by the impotent side of the Force. You can be far stronger than he was.

Dark Empire 1

Yes... you have that talent... you are a Skywalker, after all... You can be like him... You can be greater than he was!

Dark Empire Endnotes

Sidious believed that Vader was capable of destroying him.

Granted, he was strong enough to kill me.

Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

By ANH, Vader was only second to the Emperor, meaning he was above people like Cronal, Jerec, Vergere, Karness Muur, Gethzerion, Joruus C'Baoth, Sorcerers Of Rhand, Inquisitors, Prophets Of The Dark Side, and Palpatine's Dark Side Adepts:

His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself.

Shadows of the Empire: Prince Xizor vs Darth Vader action figure (Kenner)

Vader is one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever:

Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt.

Behind The Threat: Sith

From a slave on Tatooine to one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, Anakin Skywalker's rise to power was as astonishing as it was tragic.

Star Wars: Force Collection

Someone like this isn't fodder for Caedus. He's actually gonna make his grandson work for it, given that he is 80% of Darth freaking Sidious, and a risk to Sidious.

Vader lifts a Y-wing and hurls it casually.

While severly injured, collapses a cathedral, many years before his prime.

Crushes a TIE fighter while being exposed to the vacuum of space, years before his prime.

Force Chokes one of the most powerful Inquisitors.

Collapsed four pretty big platforms, 5+ years before his prime.

Outright TK disarms Starkiller, who's >Marek (a quite powerful Force user) 5+ years before his prime. You have to be considerably stronger than your opponent to do this. This is the clone, not the original, who is the one used in this thread.

Force Chokes the original Marek, who I proved is very powerful, roughly 7 years before his prime.

One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

The Force Unleashed

Force Gripped/dominated the Starkiller clone 5+ years before his prime.

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Destroyed a gigantic wooden structure with ease.

Breaks a mirror made out of an unbreakable substance.

When he allowed the breath to be drawn from him by the respirator, he thrust his right hand toward a nearby mirror. The aluminized densecris shattered into a thousand pieces, struck by the dark side as if by a metal fist.

Vader was aware of the "unbreakable" substance splintering and falling, tinkling onto the floor, myriad reflections sparkling in the light as they seemed to move in slow motion.

Death Star

Collapses ceilings.

Using the Force, Vader dropped a stone ceiling on Luke Skywalker, pinning him to the temple floor, as Leia Organa watched helplessly.

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader

Crushes the heart of a Jedi.

Vader can definitely, at least briefly, hold his own in the Force. And with Marek running interference...

Marek has Force Choked Kota.

He caught the general in a choke hold and maintained his grip even though it turned partially back on him.

The Force Unleashed

Blasts hundreds of droids away.

With one mighty exhalation of power, he blasted all of them—those in pieces and those approaching with needle-tipped fingers and vibrosaws upraised—out of the foyer doors.

(...)

Hundreds of slave droids converged on the apprentice, hoping to crush him under their combined weight before he could reach the nearest processor. He blew them away with a single push and slashed open the processor’s casing.

The Force Unleashed

Badly wounded Shaak Ti and destroyed very large plants with a Repulse.

Casually tossed Imperial walkers.

He moved with grace and pure reflex, ducking under saber-staff blows, hurling troopers bodily at their Ugnaught allies, tossing walkers off the dock, and even raining supplies from one of the balloons above.

The Force Unleashed

Casually tossed TIE fighters.

When the two remaining TIEs came around for another pass, he sent them both into the third and fifth moorings.

The Force Unleashed

Tore AT-ST walkers apart.

AT-STs cracked open like seedpods and burst into short-lived flame.

The Force Unleashed

Explodes an AT-AT.

Behind him, triggered telekinetically, the downed AT-AT exploded, expending all its stored munitions in one blistering blast.

The Force Unleashed

Very, very seriously injures a bull rancor with Lightning.

Seeking to stun the beast, the apprentice drew on all the power of the Force and sent a sizzling blast of Sith lightning into the unarmored roof of the creature’s mouth.

Every neuron in the bull rancor’s brain lit up like a firework. The following seconds were among the worst the apprentice had ever experienced. The bull rancor’s convulsions were wild and prolonged. He clung on for dear life, half drowning in blood and half choked by the foul air, with arms and legs bracing him firmly against the heaving, fleshy walls.

The Force Unleashed

One-shots an AT-AT with Lightning.

A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.

The Force Unleashed

Caedus could take them out individually with the Force, but not the two of them. Either way, it ends in a saber duel- Caedus is hopelessly outmatched there. While Marek isn't that impressive in dueling, much less than in the Force, he is still capable enough of tipping the fight in Vader's scale, given he is at the very least as skilled as Caedus. Vader's skill:

20+ years before his prime, Vader is considered more dangerous and better than General Grievous.

A sort of black-armored version of Grievous, only more dangerous, and apparently in charge of doing Palpatine’s dirty work.

Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Is outright above Ben Kenobi. This is before his prime.

As the blade of the Dark Lord's lightsaber reduced his fomer Jedi Master to nothingness, Vader's relationship with Obi-Wan Kenobi seemed to have come full circle from Mustafar. The Dark Lord's victory proved that he was now the master, both of the lightsaber and the Force itself.

Star Wars Fact File 1 (Relaunched)

According to Luke, Vader would be able to "slap down" Lumiya, meaning the Dark Lord would beat her without that much grief or difficulty.

Luke frowned over that one. "Lady has to be Lumiya. She used to style herself the Dark Lady of the Sith ... after Emperor Palpatine and my father were no longer around to slap her down for presumption."

Legacy of the Force: Exile

Nick Rostu believes Darth Vader would defeat Kar Vastor with ease. This is 20+ years before Vader's prime.

There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight

While confused and hesitating, Vader stomped PROXY, someone who gave Marek grief.

The Dark Lord froze. In that moment of hesitation the long-dead Jedi Master attacked, his face a mask of determination. At the very last moment Vader parried, then parried again. He took a step backward, toward the cliff’s edge, and then rallied. With two sweeping strokes, so fast they blurred in the cold air, he disarmed Kenobi and slashed him in half.

The Force Unleashed

Slaughters a Stormtrooper company 5 years before his prime. Companies are composed of 128 troopers.

Defeats An'ya Kuro 5 years before his prime, even after she somehow got him disarmed.

23 years before his prime, Vader outdueled Celeste Morne, someone who gave Darth Krayt, one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, a good fight.

Vader was also stated to have more skill than ever in ROTJ, which means he is possibly above Anakin.

I'm not seeing how Caedus beats these two's combined efforts.

He is very overrated.

Doesn't make him a joke of a combatant though.

He isn't even at maul level, probably .

Not as an overall combatant, no, but he doesn't need to be- Darth Maul and Vader vs Caedus is obviously a matchup the team takes.

Caedus is not outmatched in a saber duel, lol. He is significantly better than either, and he wouldn't really be pushed to his limits either against both as well.

@richard96 said:

Man, you didn't have to make a respect thread for Vader .

Well, I thought I had to, given that Vader is not getting beaten comfortable by Caedus. Yes, he's ultimately going down, but he's giving his grandson a fight. Not a bad one at that.

Obviously Vader isn't fodder for caedus and he would give him some issues,

Yup, and with Starkiller running interference, Caedus is dead.

but here the OP used a picture from TFU 2 for Vader and Galen ,

Yet they specified all characters were in their prime. This is Galen Marek from TFU, not SK from TFU II, given that the clone from TFU II is known as Starkiller or Starkiller clone, and the original guy is known as GM.

Galen is roughly at his level,

At whose level? TFU II SK, or Vader? For Vader, I've proven Marek is basically a ragdoll. And Marek has disintegrated AT-STs, AT-ATs, killed Rancors, and ragdolled TIE fighters.

TFU II SK>=Marek.

Jacen has far better feats :

Than his opponents as individuals, perhaps. Even then, this would only be absolutely true for Galen. Saber-wise, this is not true. Vader is at the very least comparable, and in actual skill is honestly on Caedus's level, at the very least. What makes Caedus better for combat is speed and power.

As Caedus, he managed to hold his own against the Grand Master

Which is frequently blown out of proportion. GM Luke has much better feats, and in a fight should very honestly make Caedus- or nearly anyone in the universe, for that matter, look like a Padawan.

Taken from wookiepedia,

Which is non-canon. Nice try though.

The mere fact caedus had the speed

Yup. Caedus vs Luke is more of a showing of speed for Caedus than anything else. I'm also going to give credit to his skill, but his performance is honestly overrated.

Arguably, he can take them at the same time with mid effort .

LOL no. The team is the one taking the fight with mid effort- not Caedus. He has one overrated showing, and someone <Vader is an outright threat to him.

I mean , rotj Vader , who is above tfu 2 Vader, was stated to be an equal in dueling of Rotj Luke ,

Vader>ROTJ Luke, LOL. Luke was using his rage even before the amp, and Vader was holding back. A holding back Vader proceeded to force Luke to hide, and then a Rage Amped Luke beat a holding back Vader.

Luke's sudden power growth from ESB to ROTJ also caught Vader off guard.

Luke's style was made to mirror Vader's, and thus Luke could anticipate and counter Vader's moves much more effectively.

ROTJ Vader>ROTJ Luke, unquestionably.

, a guy who had trouble with fodder like jabba's guards.

Trouble? He instantly dominated two Gamorreans with Force Choke; how's that trouble? He then proceeded to kill the Rancor unarmed. Then he carved through Jabba's forces- and cut off Fett's blaster before the bounty hunter could even react.

In the force , caedus was stated to have a better control in the force than Vader

He is >Vader individually, and could solo him, but you are treating Marek as fodder. Stop.

Still wookiepedia,

Stop using quotes from sources like Wookieepedia that have no credibility! Your arguments are becoming all moot!

He has shatterpoint , a very useful technique

Against one opponent? No doubt. Against two? Shatterpoint loses its advantages.

When he fell to the dark side , he summoned lighting and choke without training about them . Pre suit Vader didn't show a similar feat.

People have demonstrated really good feats without traning, and never replicated them. Bane crushed the heart of his father in his sleep with no training, yet to my knowledge never did so again. As an untrained child, Zannah blew her cousin's hand up- yet she nver did this again.

Random untrained power =/= actualized trained power.

Still wookiepedia,

*Sigh* Wookieepedia's level of canonicity is... zero.

I doubt starkiller and Vader would overcome caedus with the force ,

Debatable. They can, of course, overcome him in sabers. Caedus, on the other hand, would have to heavily rely on power- especially against SK- to win. But that won't happen for a majority.

The team has no way to defeat him

They have: sabers, maybe Force, H2H. The fight will inevitably end in a duel, which team solidly takes.

That doesn't make any sense. It was gonna land right on the surface regardless. Galen just stopped it from crushing him and his friends in the process.

Great for Marek. That's not crushing the entire ship as you originally claimed.

It doesn't really matter that we never saw Yoda do something like that. Given his parity with ROTS Palpatine, its safe to say that Yoda could replicate what Galen did.