Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

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gunsout

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#1  Edited By gunsout

Both are in the top ten, if not top five greatest sith-powerhouses of-all-time. But which comes out atop of the other?

Both in prime.

Rounds:

  1. Duel
  2. Force
  3. All out
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DesolatorStorm

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#2  Edited By DesolatorStorm

Krayt realizes why Caedus attracted so much more attention as a "lightning rod."

Just going by what Legacy comics I have (and haven't finished Fate of the Jedi).

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Bat_Siri

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I'd Give It to Krayt... He was the One who Drove Jacen to the Darkside after all

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Chiraq_windy

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#4  Edited By Chiraq_windy

Anakin Solo's death, experience in the Vong war, Lumiya's influences and his will to learn more about more to the force outside of just light/dark drove Jacen into becoming Caedus.

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Bat_Siri

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@chiraq_windy: Yeah, but His Primary Reason was a vision of a Dark man on the Throne of Balance who was Darth Krayt

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Chiraq_windy

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#6  Edited By Chiraq_windy

@bat_siri: I don't believe he had that visage until after he was Caedus ( I could be wrong though), and him seeing Krayt on the throne of Balance was only provoking because he realized the treat of his daughter securing peace the Galaxy was due to the Dark Man's presence. All of that however was after him Flow-walking into the past and seeing his Grandfather's fall to the darkside, and saying it was his destiny to succeed him. Or when he had a vision of killing Lumiya, or when thought he needed to kill Ben Skywalker into order for his conversion to be complete but instead murdered Mara. Or when Anakin died. Not really seeing how any of this translates into Krayt holding a combative or power edge of Caedus just because he influenced someones transition into the darkside.

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Bat_Siri

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#7  Edited By Bat_Siri

@chiraq_windy: Guess You Got a Point.

But i would Grant Krayt the edge as a Lightsaber Duelist and they should be in the same tier as Force Users.

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Chiraq_windy

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#8  Edited By Chiraq_windy

@bat_siri said:

@chiraq_windy: Guess You Got a Point.

But i would Grant Krayt the edge as a Lightsaber Duelist and they should be in the same tier as Force Users.

I agree with the second which in hindsight I realize would likely put them on equal grounds physically (as far fighting speed goes), but how do you figure Krayt is a more skilled duelist? Jacen has fought equally and even bested fighters just as capable as Krayt under sever disadvantage ( Mara Jade when he was ambushed/injured by her and Jaina Solo when he was maimed and dealing with wounds from his fight with Luke as well an illusion).

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TheVivas

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Caedus.

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Pharoh_Atem

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Jacen.

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gunsout

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#11  Edited By gunsout

Added rounds

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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A case could probably be made either way.

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WollfMyth209

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Caedus.

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cs_zoltan

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1. Caedus.

2. Krayt, maybe.

3. Caedus.

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GeorgeWBush

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Caedus in a tough fight

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laflux

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A case could probably be made either way.

I think Jacen stomps to be Honest >:P

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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@laflux said:
@i_like_swords said:

A case could probably be made either way.

I think Jacen stomps to be Honest >:P

I'm thinking he wins a duel albeit narrowly (Skywalker's/Solo's are inherently beast with a lightsaber..) but Force-wise, I'd support Krayt if not in terms of raw power but mastery/variety, and combative usage. All out is a toss up.

I also don't think the gaps in either category are huge, it seems like youth vs experience to me, which is represented through Caedus' superior dueling and Krayt's superior Force wisdom.

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laflux

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@i_like_swords: You didn't fall for the bait :p

Krayt seems a more powerful force user. Jacen is faster and more skilled. So I feel Jacen takes the Duel, Krayt the force, and all out is up to the whether you favor skill over power.

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Pharoh_Atem

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#19  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

Why is Krayt more powerful than Jacen?

I ask because I'm genuinely interested.

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cs_zoltan

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I don't think he is, but I find his Alter feats more impressive. Couple that with Dark Transfer and I think he might win a force duel. But not the rest.

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laflux

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Why is Krayt more powerful than Jacen?

I ask because I'm genuinely interested.

Being the Hive mind for an entire army of Force Sensitives warriors capable of taking on and beating Jedi comes across as quite impressive to me to be honest.

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EmperorxHadesx420

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Solo

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@laflux said:

@i_like_swords: You didn't fall for the bait :p

Krayt seems a more powerful force user. Jacen is faster and more skilled. So I feel Jacen takes the Duel, Krayt the force, and all out is up to the whether you favor skill over power.

What bait? :p

Sounds good to me, tbh. I wish the fight had happened in some capacity. It's a similar rivalry to early Vitiate and Ragnos/Naga Sadow, just never happened.

Why is Krayt more powerful than Jacen?

I ask because I'm genuinely interested.

Greater Force knowledge from what I can glean, and the hype his Force reserves receive in Apocalypse, bearing in mind he was pre-prime here, is pretty insane.

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theendgame

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@chiraq_windy: Wouldn't it be fair to say that most of Krayts feats came before his rebirth. During which time his body was in a constant state of agonizing pain that was caused by the poisonous Vong implants?

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Chiraq_windy

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theendgame

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@chiraq_windy: Whooping up on Cade and slaughtering imperial knights all on equal ground don't count? They very well should.

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Emperordmb

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#27  Edited By Emperordmb

I'm pretty sure Jacen seeing a vision of his daughter kneeling beside a Dark Lord is gonna freak him out no matter who the Dark Lord is tbh

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ShootingNova

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Jacen wins a gruelling contest.

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Bat_Siri

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@chiraq_windy: Its not always about Feats (although Krayt has that) its about Technique. But anyway, Jacen only won that fight by tricking Mara with an illusion of Ben Skywalker then poisoning her with a Darkside Gauntlet.

Anyway, Even as a Jedi, Krayt defeated Aurra Sing, sparred with The Dark Woman, Put up a Hell of a Fight Against Obi Wan Kenobi and ge spent years perfecting his technique. So, yeah, he gets the Lightsaber Edge.

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Chiraq_windy

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#30  Edited By Chiraq_windy

@bat_siri said:

@chiraq_windy: Its not always about Feats (although Krayt has that) its about Technique. But anyway, Jacen only won that fight by tricking Mara with an illusion of Ben Skywalker then poisoning her with a Darkside Gauntlet.

Anyway, Even as a Jedi, Krayt defeated Aurra Sing, sparred with The Dark Woman, Put up a Hell of a Fight Against Obi Wan Kenobi and ge spent years perfecting his technique. So, yeah, he gets the Lightsaber Edge.

I never said it was always about the feats. But when a certain number of quality skill feats it helps measure if not determine moreso your ability as a fighter/duelist.

Okay, I'm assuming you read the fight but you're lowballing Jacen or misanalysing it.

Jacen was ambushed by Mara Jade, underneath a Temple sewage tunnel, and was attacked and blind sided initially by Mara, injuring his knee's tendons enough to rip out of place and causing him great pain. She took advantage of her cheapshot by running away (getting a good 50 meters), hiding in the dark, and then followed it up with collapsing a the large portion of the cave on him after leading him further in to her trap, and wounded him with a light saber strike to the collar bone. Again causing him sever pain furthering his injuries which were dwindling him and force reserves throughout the fight. Yet still he was able to fend her off (in telekinesis and melee), despite her being entirely more aggressive (since she was fighting to save her son) and more capable at fighting them him at the time. And what exactly is the problem with his using his telepathic or illusions in combat if he sees so fit? He's a skilled telepath and he decided to implement that ability in combat like he could here to Krayt as well. Are saying that the was his only way to win against Mara? Then you would be wrong, that's just a way he decided to win against Mara and doesn't undermine his feat his feat at all; it actually makes it more impressive he tactically used an illusion to take advantage despite him being severely injured, losing blood, and fighting a bloodlusted Mara in a disadvantaged setting. You also didn't address the fact that he was fighting evenly with Jaina despite having one arm, and deep lightsaber cut to the kidney (from his fight with Luke).

Here's the fight in Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice .

Jacen had expected to have to deal with an angry Mara after he killed Ben, not before.

He was still looking for meanings and patterns in the events around him, and he now saw in himself a certain desperation to try whatever was placed in his path to see if that did the trick and sealed his Sith status.

Will I notice? What does it feel like?

How will I know ?

There had to be something that changed the fabric of the galaxy-a tipping point. Meanwhile, Mara was challenging him, pinpointing herself in the tunnels that ran deep under the Kavan countryside, thinking she was still an A-list assassin and that she could take someone who had complete mastery of the Force.

She was a superb assassin, but her Force skills were crude compared to his. Once Jacen removed her, it would be easier to deal with Ben. And Luke . . . he'd cross that bridge when he had to.

Jacen checked his belt, pockets, and holster, and decided to oblige Mara. Lumiya and Ben seemed to be elsewhere having their own showdown. Now it all fitted. Lumiya had to be silenced for what she knew, and Ben would do it. It was tidy. It was a food chain.

Jacen loaded four poisoned darts into an adapted blaster and slipped the others into slots on his belt, wondering how he could think such things so calmly. He approached the tunnel mouth with slow care. While he could sense the layout, Mara had vanished from the Force again. There was about a meter of headroom as he edged carefully along the central tunnel, and he could see horizontal shafts at about hip height branching off. It had been built to drain storm water; in harsh winters, local Kavani had once made emergency homes down here.

Jacen stood and listened.

"Okay," he said. "I know you can hear me, Mara. You can still back out of this."

His voice echoed. There was no response, just as he expected, so he began walking deeper into the maze of drains, lightsaber in his right hand and blaster in the other. The only light around him now was a green haze from the glowing blade of energy.

"I could," he said quietly, "go back, block the entrance to this complex with flammable material, and set fire to it." She could hear him, all right: he could hear water dripping slowly deep in the tunnels. Sound was magnified, even if it was hard to pinpoint the origin. "And the fact that these tunnels have vents means the chimney effect would smoke you out, asphyxiate you, or barbecue you."

Silence.

He held his breath, listening.

Crack.

His right knee exploded with blinding pain as Mara cannoned out horizontally, Force-assisted, from a side conduit and caught his leg on the joint with her boots, ripping the tendons. As he lost his footing in the narrow passage, screaming, he found himself wedged for a second and groping for support. He lashed out with his lightsaber, shaving powdery brick from the wall. Mara dropped to the muddy floor to dodge the lightsaber, then sprang up and sprinted away down the tunnel.

It wasn't a good start. Jacen swore and made himself run after her, willing endorphins to numb his leg and telling himself that he knew she was setting up a trap. She wanted him confined, pinned down, penned.

If she thought tunnels would even the odds, she was wrong. He'd bury her here.

Mara found the perfect trap at the end of one of the culverts. She could hear Jacen's running footsteps and she had a good fifty meters on him.

From here, the vaulted ceiling became lower, and even Mara had to run at a crouch. It wasn't the place to swing a standard lightsaber. The tunnels were in poor condition, and the brick arches were starting to sag and collapse in places.

So he wouldn't oblige her by revealing his physical position in the Force. Fine. She spotted a rusty metal sheet about half a meter wide and laid it carefully across the tunnel floor, propped on stones so he'd tread on it and give her an audible warning when he reached that point. An intense Force shake of the brickwork and arches in front of and behind the metal plate weakened them, and then she stopped them from collapsing by Force pressure.

Hold 'em up. Wait for him to hit that plate . . .

Going after Jacen would never work. He could never be allowed to set the agenda. He could come after her.

Trap, immobilize, kill.

It wasn't pretty, and it wouldn't capture the public's imagination like a lightsaber display at the academy, but her training was in destruction. Jacen's was in deception.

She could hear him breathing, and the irregular vzzzm-vzzzm-vzzzm of his lightsaber as he stalked, jumping and turning to be sure she wasn't behind him. Then she could hear that he wasn't swinging the blade so much; the short staccato hums and buzzes told her he was running out of room.

She was trapped too, of course, unless she counted the ventilation shafts every fifty meters. But when she said she was leaving here over his dead body, she meant it.

She felt the beginning of a compassionate human thought about Leia, but killed it stone-dead. It would weaken her.

Jacen's boots crunched over bricks. He was impatient. She was in his way, holding him up when he wanted to get on with something.

Crunch . . . crunch . . . crunch.

If she'd timed it right, he was close to stepping on that rusty plate.

Clang. . .

The rumbling began. She brought down both sections of tunnel, before and behind, with a massive exertion in the Force that made her breathless. She didn't hear him call out. Even in the damp conditions, clouds of fine debris filled the air and made her choke.

Mara waited, one hand over her mouth and nose, shoto drawn, and listened in the Force.

There was whimpering and the chunk-chunk sound of the last falling bricks. She didn't expect that weight of debris from a low ceiling to cause impact injury, but to engulf and immobilize him. He wouldn't be dead-yet.

She waited in silence, a nonexistent presence herself, until she could hear no more movement.

Okay. Let's see what I have to do to end this.

An arm was all that protruded from the rubble. Through a fist-sized gap, she could see the wet, blinking glint of an eye and bloodstained face. A hand reached out to her, fingers splayed, bloody and shaking. Other people might have felt an urge to take that hand, the most distinctively human of things, but it was an old, tired Sith stunt, and she'd used it herself too many times.

She took her blaster and leveled it at the eye, one-handed, forefinger resting on the trigger. She had the shoto ready in case a coup de grace was called for.

She felt as detached and steady as she'd ever been as the Emperor's Hand.

"Tell my mom I'm sorry I failed her," Jacen whispered.

"She knows," Mara said, and squeezed the trigger.

They said that the human body was capable of extraordinary feats of strength when in extremis. For a Jedi, it was something else entirely.

Jacen Solo wasn't ready to die, not now, not so close to his ascendance, and not in a stinking drain like vermin.

He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation. Bricks hammered the walls and rained fragments, knocking Mara flat like a bomb blast. She made an animal noise that was more anger than pain and flailed for a moment as she tried to get up.

The effort froze Jacen for two vital seconds. But he knew if he didn't get up now and fight back, Mara would come in for the kill, again and again, until he was worn down and too weak to fend her off.

He scrambled to his feet, staggering more than standing, and suddenly understood.

It was Mara who had to die to fulfill his destiny.

Killing her was the test: the words of the prophecy were meaningless, and at a visceral level he knew that her death was the pivotal act. He didn't know how, and this wasn't the time to stop and think about it. He surrendered totally to instinct for the first time in ages. Whatever guided a Sith's hand had to guide him now.

But he was hurt, and badly.

Ben ... he didn't know where Ben fitted into this, but now he knew he did, as surely as he knew anything. Jacen didn't care, because he knew he had to kill Mara now and nothing else would make sense until he did that.

He fumbled for his lightsaber and thumbed it into life again. Mara was already back on her feet, coming at him with the shoto and vibroblade, brick dust and black-red blood snaking down her forehead from a scalp cut. She leapt at him with the shoto held left-handed, fencing-style, seared the angle of his cheekbone, and caught him under the tip of chin with the vibroblade as he jerked back.

She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him, one-two, one-two with the shoto and the blade, and he was being driven back, his strength ebbing. He needed space to fight.

He drew his dart gun and fired one after the other, but Mara scattered all four needles in a blur of blue light. They fell to the ground. He turned and scrambled through the collapsed brick, using the Force to hurl debris up at her from the floor of the passage while she leapt from block to boulder to chunk of masonry, until she Force-leapt onto his back and brought him down.

They rolled. This wasn't a duel: it was a brawl. She thrust her vibroblade up under his chin and he jerked his head to one side, feeling the tip skate from his jaw to his hairline as it missed his jugular. He couldn't draw the weapons he needed. He was losing blood, losing strength, waning, flailing his lightsaber to fend her off. It was almost useless in such a close-quarters struggle. Mara, manic and panting, flicked the shoto to counter every desperate stabbing thrust.

"Ben . . . I'll see you dead first. . . before . . . you get . . . Ben."

Jacen was on the knife-edge between dying and killing. They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side. She almost Force-snatched the lightsaber from his hand, but even with his injuries he hung on to it. He wouldn't die. He couldn't, not now.

"You can't beat me," he gasped. "It's not meant to be."

"Really?" Mara snarled. "I say it is."

Then she launched herself at him-unthinking, a wild woman, hair flying-and he Force-pushed to send her slamming against a pillar in midleap. But the battering he'd taken and the ferocity of her relentless attack had blinded him to danger from another quarter. As he lurched backward to avoid her, his legs went from under him and he stumbled into a gaping crack opened up by the subsidence. He fell badly: red-hot pain seared from ankle to knee. His lightsaber went flying. Pain could be ignored, but the moment it took him to get to his feet again was enough for Mara to right herself and come back at him with the shoto and plunge it into the soft tissue just under the end of his collarbone.

Lightsaber wounds hurt a lot more than he ever imagined. Jacen screamed. He summoned his own weapon back to his hand and Mara crashed into him, knocking him flat again and pinning him down. Her vibroblade stopped a hand span from his throat as he managed to grab her hair and drag her face nearer and nearer to his lightsaber. She struggled to pull back, hacking at him with the shoto but blocked by his dwindling Force power each time.

Her vibroblade grazed his neck. He fumbled in his belt for a dart. She jerked back with a massive effort, leaving him clutching a handful of red hair, and the only thing that crossed his mind as she arched her back and held her arms high to bring both shoto and vibroblade down into his chest was that she would never, ever harm Ben.

Jacen stared into her eyes and instantly created the illusion of Ben's face beneath her. She blinked.

It gave him the edge for that fraction of a moment. It was long enough to ram the poison dart into her leg with its protective plastoid cone still in place.

It was just a small needle, ten centimeters long. He stabbed her so hard that the sharp end punched through the cone and the fabric of her pants.

Mara gasped and looked down at her leg as if she was puzzled rather than hurt. The dart quivered as she moved, and then fell to the floor.

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Bat_Siri

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@chiraq_windy: No, i haven't read the fight otherwise i would've sourced it....

But anyway, Caedus never killed any of his Major Opponents in Lightsaber duels, either Killing them via Other means, Cheap Shotted them as he Did With Kyle or just losing. I'm Not Say that Jacen is a bad duelist, i think he's overated as f0ck but he's a decent duelist. My Point of using that Fight shows his inexperiance of Finshing Off duelists equal to himself with Lightsaber combat, as he has used Deception tactics the gain the upper hand, although it is hard to figure out what his main tactic would be on a neutral Playing field as all his Major Fights he has been ambushed before the engement

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Chiraq_windy

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@bat_siri:

Anyway, Even as a Jedi, Krayt defeated Aurra Sing, sparred with The Dark Woman, Put up a Hell of a Fight Against Obi Wan Kenobi and ge spent years perfecting his technique. So, yeah, he gets the Lightsaber Edge.

Those showings are not really more impressive than Jacen handily besting Lah, Warmaster Tsavong (who's been described as the quintessetial Vong warrior and one of the highest ranking Vong), or being described as one of the best swordsman in the NJO, or challenging Grandmaster Luke.

@chiraq_windy: Whooping up on Cade and slaughtering imperial knights all on equal ground don't count? They very well should.

They do count for something, but I don't know the ranks or capabilities of those imperial knights to determine there skill level. It's an impressive skill feat as far as beating fodder goes especially since he pretty much blitzed them. How skilled was Cade at the time?

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Chiraq_windy

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@bat_siri said:

@chiraq_windy: No, i haven't read the fight otherwise i would've sourced it....

But anyway, Caedus never killed any of his Major Opponents in Lightsaber duels, either Killing them via Other means, Cheap Shotted them as he Did With Kyle or just losing. I'm Not Say that Jacen is a bad duelist, i think he's overated as f0ck but he's a decent duelist. My Point of using that Fight shows his inexperiance of Finshing Off duelists equal to himself with Lightsaber combat, as he has used Deception tactics the gain the upper hand, although it is hard to figure out what his main tactic would be on a neutral Playing field as all his Major Fights he has been ambushed before the engement

You just state things out of ignorance and I'm just supposed to listen to your opinion after. You don't know much abut the character but you think you can make objective assessments of how well they would fight against another character that you have a more favorable view of? That's not fair at all.

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DarthManhunter

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Ehh... Jacen in a great battle.

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Bat_Siri

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Chiraq_windy

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@bat_siri: Now that's just mean. I was being nice by saying your favorite character has a chance here, and you call me a-hole because I give you information on character you didn't know much about.

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Bat_Siri

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#37  Edited By Bat_Siri

@chiraq_windy: -_- I just know more about Krayt and what i know about Caedus i think Krayt wins. And your last Cooment completly disregards what i say just because i don't know as much as you do about Caedus, so yeah, it kinda of comes off as being an assh0le to me

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Foxdie

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@bat_siri: 1. He was not being a asshole he was telling the truth

2. Everything he said about

Krayt is also true, he either outright stomps or gets stomped.

He's a nice strategist but anyone near his level and he's fucked.

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nfactor1995

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Vitisid

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Krayt rather easily.

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Azronger

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Krayt stomps

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In-sidiousvader

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#44  Edited By In-sidiousvader

Krayt basically GODSTOMPS, he just rag-dolls

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Vitisid

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"Caedus murders him"

lmao

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deactivated-5bf470b432518

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Krayt

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Vitisid

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Krayt one-shots.

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ArkhamAsylum3

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Krayt.

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dark-sith123

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Krayt curbstomps lmfao

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Dawn_of_Ages

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#50  Edited By Dawn_of_Ages

Papa Krayt spanks him