Darth Caedus vs Count Dooku x2 (Legends)

Jacen stomps

@darthrassilon: Reasoning?

Probably Kylo's Legends counterpart

A single dooku is more than enough.

Mara Jade who is widely accepted to be sub-dooku came pretty close

@ferriserris: I'm fairly certain that is a contextual showing, no?

@frozen: Caedus in that case had a massive adrenaline style power boost

They said that the human body was capable of extraordinary feats of strength when in extremis. For a Jedi, it was something else entirely. Jacen Solo wasn't ready to die, not now, not so close to his ascendance, and not in a stinking drain like vermin.He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation.

LotF Sacrifice

While Mara had just had a cave in exploded in her face "with the force of a bomb" and yet Mara tanked or deflected all of his attacks, overpowered him in the force and bodied him.

So yes there was context. That being Caedus was amped, Mara was hindered and she still won. Jacen only pulled through via a cheapshot illusion and a poison dart. He lost the fight itself.

you're unbelievably stupid... Jacen was injured by that explosion that Mara caused and it was specifically noted that his fighting style was hindered by the close combat. And she ambushed him

His right knee exploded with blinding pain as Mara cannoned out horizontally, Force-assisted, from a side conduit and caught his leg on the joint with her boots, ripping the tendons. As he lost his footing in the narrow passage, screaming, he found himself wedged for a second and groping for support. He lashed out with his lightsaber, shaving powdery brick from the wall. Mara dropped to the muddy floor to dodge the lightsaber, then sprang up and sprinted away down the tunnel.

It wasn't a good start. Jacen swore and made himself run after her, willing endorphins to numb his leg and telling himself that he knew she was setting up a trap. She wanted him confined, pinned down, penned.

I'd question how on Earth you could possibly miss this but then i remembered you're a moron, even the echo chamber that is SI doesn't believe half the drivel you put out as i recall they even had an emote for you called "Greypost"

The rumbling began. She brought down both sections of tunnel, before and behind, with a massive exertion in the Force that made her breathless. She didn't hear him call out. Even in the damp conditions, clouds of fine debris filled the air and made her choke.

…

An arm was all that protruded from the rubble. Through a fist-sized gap, she could see the wet, blinking glint of an eye and bloodstained face. A hand reached out to her, fingers splayed, bloody and shaking. Other people might have felt an urge to take that hand, the most distinctively human of things, but it was an old, tired Sith stunt, and she'd used it herself too many times.

look at that he was massively injured by the explosion that Mara "tanked" even though she was no where near the blast

aside your moronic interpretation of the fight please note that Mara admitted she was weaker than Jacen many many times over

Either way, she was going to get a reaction out of him. She couldn't outstrip his Force powers, but the tricks of flesh and blood put her on a more level playing field.

-- Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice

"No, I feel that Jacen's developing powers way beyond mine, and that he's good for Ben, and that he would never harm him."

-- Legacy of the Force: Bloodline

so do me a favor go back to the SI discord channel and let them make fun of you for this crusade you have. stop trying to trick @frozen Vivas and i already got to him about how good Caedus actually is

@warlockmage:

Jacen was injured by that explosion that Mara caused and it was specifically noted that his fighting style was hindered by the close combat.

His fighting style being cramped is irrelevant to the point I was making. Which was that Mara matched and overpowered him in the force.

look at that he was massively injured by the explosion that Mara "tanked" even though she was no where near the blast

It wasn't an explosion lol. She collapsed a tiny maybe 2m section of cave on him

While he could sense the layout, Mara had vanished from the Force again. There was about a meter of headroom as he edged carefully along the central tunnel

-LotF Sacrifice

And she was point blank when it happened as well lol.

look at that he was massively injured by the explosion that Mara "tanked" even though she was no where near the blast

Caedus is amped by injuries and is stated to have a massive adrenaline amp in this instance.

Mara admitted she was weaker than Jacen many many times over

Irrelevant as she later demonstrated the feat over matching and overpowering him in the force. Her opinion is fallible.

Probably Caedus, I can see a case either way though

@greysentinel365:oh boy

His fighting style being cramped is irrelevant to the point I was making. Which was that Mara matched and overpowered him in the force.

nothing you said here is accurate

It wasn't an explosion lol. She collapsed a tiny maybe 2m section of cave on him

you are completely fabricating these numbers up

And she was point blank when it happened as well lol.

the only thing she was point blank for was when Jacen ragdolled her with a force explosion the first of many

He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation. Bricks hammered the walls and rained fragments, knocking Mara flat like a bomb blast. She made an animal noise that was more anger than pain and flailed for a moment as she tried to get up.

look at that completely ragdolled also a bloody and crushed body is not and will not ever be amped

Caedus is amped by injuries and is stated to have a massive adrenaline amp in this instance.

this is also false Caedus is amped by Pain but the injuries he receives still affect him. Ill admit you are a good liar but you can't lie to me. Caedus had his arm cut off by Jaina he didn't suddenly get stronger he fed off the pain to keep functioning but he still lost an arm. He didn't magically get stronger by that.

Just like having broken bones and blood loss doesn't make him stronger but don't worry we'll get to that.

Irrelevant as she later demonstrated the feat over matching and overpowering him in the force. Her opinion is fallible.

ok do the same thing but with Vader feats and Lucas' opinion being fallible. I know you can't but its ok cuz she never overpowers him or out fights him.

now lets break down the entire fight that you refuse to post cuz you know people will call you for being a moron

But he was hurt, and badly.

Ben ... he didn't know where Ben fitted into this, but now he knew he did, as surely as he knew anything. Jacen didn't care, because he knew he had to kill Mara now and nothing else would make sense until he did that.

But he was hurt, and badly... yes i see how reading this you could think he was amped. Because only a complete moron could think that.

She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him, one-two, one-two with the shoto and the blade, and he was being driven back, his strength ebbing. He needed space to fight.

here is the 2nd time Mara gets ragdolled by Jacen... it also mentions he was not able to properly fight

They rolled. This wasn't a duel: it was a brawl. She thrust her vibroblade up under his chin and he jerked his head to one side, feeling the tip skate from his jaw to his hairline as it missed his jugular. He couldn't draw the weapons he needed. He was losing blood, losing strength, waning, flailing his lightsaber to fend her off. It was almost useless in such a close-quarters struggle. Mara, manic and panting, flicked the shoto to counter every desperate stabbing thrust.

he was losing blood and strength again only a complete moron could think he was amped here... now i know you fit the bill but still you shouldn't lie so blatantly it will turn people off.

btw Mara's Shoto would be perfect for fighting in this area

"Ben . . . I'll see you dead first. . . before . . . you get . . . Ben."

Jacen was on the knife-edge between dying and killing. They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side. She almost Force-snatched the lightsaber from his hand, but even with his injuries he hung on to it. He wouldn't die. He couldn't, not now.

Mara was as rage amped and bloodlusted as she could be. She was doing this to protect her son, if anyone was amped here it was Mara. Now i don't expect you to agree to this cuz it goes against your head canon but the others reading will see your lies.

again he throws her back this is the 3rd time she's been ragdolled just cuz she managed to just barely prevent her spine from being jolted does not mean she overpowered him.

Then she launched herself at him-unthinking, a wild woman, hair flying-and he Force-pushed to send her slamming against a pillar in midleap. But the battering he'd taken and the ferocity of her relentless attack had blinded him to danger from another quarter. As he lurched backward to avoid her, his legs went from under him and he stumbled into a gaping crack opened up by the subsidence. He fell badly: red-hot pain seared from ankle to knee. His lightsaber went flying. Pain could be ignored, but the moment it took him to get to his feet again was enough for Mara to right herself and come back at him with the shoto and plunge it into the soft tissue just under the end of his collarbone.

AGAIN Mara is force pushed away for the 4th consecutive time, unfortunately the battlefield was not kind to Jacen since it was stated several times to hinder him

side note it expressly states Jacen is ignoring the pain, not feeding off of it. I know context can be such a bitch when it goes against your head canon but try to keep up

Lightsaber wounds hurt a lot more than he ever imagined. Jacen screamed. He summoned his own weapon back to his hand and Mara crashed into him, knocking him flat again and pinning him down. Her vibroblade stopped a hand span from his throat as he managed to grab her hair and drag her face nearer and nearer to his lightsaber. She struggled to pull back, hacking at him with the shoto but blocked by his dwindling Force power each time.

Her vibroblade grazed his neck. He fumbled in his belt for a dart. She jerked back with a massive effort, leaving him clutching a handful of red hair, and the only thing that crossed his mind as she arched her back and held her arms high to bring both shoto and vibroblade down into his chest was that she would never, ever harm Ben.

even on the ground in a horrendous position while weakened he was able to block her shoto with the force every time.

Jacen stared into her eyes and instantly created the illusion of Ben's face beneath her. She blinked.

It gave him the edge for that fraction of a moment. It was long enough to ram the poison dart into her leg with its protective plastoid cone still in place.

It was just a small needle, ten centimeters long. He stabbed her so hard that the sharp end punched through the cone and the fabric of her pants.

Mara gasped and looked down at her leg as if she was puzzled rather than hurt. The dart quivered as she moved, and then fell to the floor.

"Oh . . . it's done . . ." Jacen said. The shoto fell from her hand and she made a vague and uncontrolled pawing movement with the vibroblade. It caught him in the bicep, but there was no strength behind the blow, and she dropped the weapon. "I'm sorry, Mara. Had to be you. Thought it was Ben. But it's over now, it's over . . ."

Jacen then uses an illusion which, if mara was stronger than him, would not have worked except it did and then used his gear to his advantaged (something Mara had been doing the entire fight and still couldnt win)

this is the end of the fight. Mara was rag dolled 4 times, rag dolled Jacen 0 and managed to block one force spine jolting. Mara used the battlefield, prep, ambush tactics and force rage and she still lost to a weakened bleeding out Jacen.

Nowhere was it stated Mara was hindered, every single time it was mentioned Jacen's body was crumpled, bloodied, that he was ignoring the pain not feeding off of it.

You are a liar plain and simple.

Regardless of circumstances, Caedus had "issues" with Mara Jade and his life was in danger whilst Dooku fought multiple opponents at once who are each individually far more formidable than Mara and yet Dooku managed to persevere without his life actually truly being in danger.

@warlockmage:

You substantiated nothing above this point so I won't even bother with it

look at that completely ragdolled also a bloody and crushed body is not and will not ever be amped

Her being blindsided by Caedus' massive amp did nothing. She got back up and kicked his ass. And the amp is stated. You not liking it doesn't change that

They said that the human body was capable of extraordinary feats of strength when in extremis. For a Jedi, it was something else entirely. Jacen Solo wasn't ready to die, not now, not so close to his ascendance, and not in a stinking drain like vermin.He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation.

LotF Sacrifice

You have nothing

Caedus had his arm cut off by Jaina he didn't suddenly get stronger he fed off the pain to keep functioning but he still lost an arm. He didn't magically get stronger by that.

It's directly stated that he gets stronger from pain and that said injuries don't weaken him

ok do the same thing but with Vader feats and Lucas' opinion being fallible.

Lucas is an out of universe WoG source. Mara is an in universe character.

But he was hurt, and badly... yes i see how reading this you could think he was amped.

Caedus being hurt doesn't negate his amp lol.

here is the 2nd time Mara gets ragdolled by Jacen... it also mentions he was not able to properly fight

That's a push not a ragdoll. Mara and Jacen exchange force attacks equally

They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side. She almost Force-snatched the lightsaber from his hand, but even with his injuries he hung on to it. He wouldn't die. He couldn't, not now.

LotF Sacrifice

So no

Mara was as rage amped and bloodlusted as she could be

Nothing states she was bloodlusted. And even if you wanted to posit she was that would just put her on an even playing field with Jacen where she still won.

again he throws her back this is the 3rd time she's been ragdolled just cuz she managed to just barely prevent her spine from being jolted does not mean she overpowered him.

Nothing states she "barely" did anything. Jacen is actually the one stated to barely prevent her from yanking the lightsaber from his hand. So that's just a straight lie

AGAIN Mara is force pushed away for the 4th consecutive time, unfortunately the battlefield was not kind to Jacen since it was stated several times to hinder him

Which did nothing. She powered through his attacks and overpowered him. Caedus cannot down Mara with the force.

side note it expressly states Jacen is ignoring the pain, not feeding off of it.

Feeding and ignoring pain are one in the same for Jacen

"The import of the Embrace chamber's data is exactly this: Jacen Solo has become capable of not only accepting torment, but thriving on it. As the warmaster will recall, I predicted such a result. He has discovered resources within himself of the sort that we find only in our greatest warriors."

-- New Jedi Order: Traitor

But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him.

LotF Tempest

This is a well established fact of his character

Jacen then uses an illusion which, if mara was stronger than him, would not have worked except it did

Illusions don't work based the other users power. You're thinking of mind control. Corran Horn used illusions in a similar fashion to trick post DE Luke and the entire academy present. That does not mean he scales above them.

Darth Caedus is simply on another level, unfortunately. He simply outstrips the Count in literally every category possible. I highly doubt a peer of Dooku aiding him would aid him in any way.

Even without feeding off pain to fuel his strength, he was able to react and defend against a stealthed bloodlusted Luke Skywalker, who was enraged at Caedus torturing his son and wanted Caedus dead from the start. There are multiple quotes that states that he is also within Luke's range as a combatant, from growing in power constantly during Bloodlines to tipping the odds against Luke and Ben with the aid of YVH droids when at his prime.

In his fight against Luke, Caedus actually had a golden opportunity to kill him during their duel but instead, due to his hubris, decided to squander away that opportunity and keep him pinned in the brief moment Luke was incapacitated, resulting in Luke being able to recover and retaliate. The narration even described Caedus sneering while keeping Luke pinned and "taking his time rising" to be a bad mistake. The fact that he had this opportunity alone shows that he is capable of winning some rounds against Luke, even if its not for a majority.

Caedus should win this very resoundingly.

Also, isn't multiple of the same character against the rules?