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#1 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio

Since our previous attempt at this disappeared, presumably due to a site glitch or something equally unfortunate, let's try this again.

Darth Bane & Darth Zannah

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VS

Darth Maul & Darth Tyranus
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Scenario: During meditation exercises on Ambria, Darth Bane and Darth Zannah are alerted through the Force to the existence of other Sith Lords on the planet Muunilinst and search for them for fear that these Sith might jeopardize their Order. Count Dooku, while overseeing war campaigns on Muunilinst, is alerted to the presence of Bane and Zannah when they arrive on the streets of the planet and is accompanied by Darth Maul, sent by his master to aid Dooku, in eliminating these two Sith Lords. The pairs of Sith meet in the streets of the city and are intent on killing one another to secure their places as Lords of the Sith.

Rules:
  • This is DE Bane and Zannah; TPM Maul; and RotS Dooku.
  • Standard equipment for all. Bane does not have the orbalisk armor.
  • Regular morals and mindsets apply.
  • Random encounter. No prep.
  • Victory via death, KO, or incapacitation.
  • Battle takes place in the streets of Harnaidan on Muunilinst, daytime, unpopulated.
  • Combatants begin ten meters apart.
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#2 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio

  


First and foremost, let me acknowledge that I believe Bane is more powerful than anyone on my team but not to such a degree that he could overwhelm them by sheer Force potency, or at least not all at once (he would have to wear them down first were he to kill either with a Force attack). Talking about a scenario where Bane engaged Dooku and Zannah engaged Maul (we can discuss the outcomes of the inverse later), Dooku has fought directly with Anakin and Yoda, and neither of them managed to defeat him straight off by TK or any other offensive Force application (and in the RotS novelization, Anakin did employ TK against him, as did Dooku in turn). Both Yoda and Anakin have telekinetic feats that outweigh Bane's; so while TK is not obsolete for either side, it should hardly be a game-changer. As for Lightning, Tyranus can project his own measure of Lightning to intercept Bane's own should Bane employ that (which is fairly likely, in my opinion), or he could simply catch the Lightning on his lightsaber blade, as Bane could with Dooku's as well. With that said, a fight between Bane and Dooku should be dependent on who can outmatch the other in a duel. 
 
Now, this carries several circumstances. I consider (and I think you agree with this assessment) that Dooku is a more skilled duelist than Bane is, but Bane does have the potential edge because he is a Djem So master, which has the chance to physically overpower Makashi adepts (as this happened to Dooku when he lost to Anakin in RotS). With that said, this becomes a matter of whether or not Bane could manage to overwhelm Dooku in the manner in which Anakin did. The novelization stated that Anakin was throwing blows with the force of a meteor strike (you can interpret that as you will; quote below). I have seen nothing from Bane to suggest he could reach this level of striking power. He has pulled steel doors off walls, as an example of his sheer strength, but while his strokes are forceful, he never showed any feats of force on impact that resemble Anakin's in that duel to my recollection (maybe you remember a showing I don't). As well, Dooku has repelled saber strokes from Yoda, who is at least as strong as Bane and is certainly faster (Yoda has carried a crate with a turret inside it on his back for miles); this furthers my point that Bane may not be able to overcome Dooku by virtue of being stronger.  But even granting that Bane could deliver the degree of damage with his blows necessary to weaken Dooku, would it be enough to make up the gap in skill? Personally, I doubt it. Dooku has beaten Anakin in a duel before as in AotC (Anakin adopted Ataru when he brought two lightsabers to bear against Dooku at first, but he reverted to his standard Djem So when Dooku removed one of his blades). So we can say with certainty that Djem So is not a guaranteed win over Tyranus. More to the point, even when Anakin was battering Dooku's defenses and pushing the latter to his limit, Dooku still succeeded in holding his own for a while even with Obi-Wan presenting yet another obstacle, and this is taking into consideration how proficient a swordsman Anakin is in the first place on top of Djem So providing another factor to deal with (Anakin has casually defeated several MagnaGuards, beaten Asajj Ventress, fought evenly with Obi-Wan in sparring matches, etc.). In short, I question Bane's capacity to replicate what Anakin demonstrated in RotS against Dooku, but even were he to gain a noticeable physical dominance, Dooku's pure fighting ability could still win him a majority, in my opinion (but it would be a small majority). 

Skywalker was all over him. The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker—Skywalker was getting stronger.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Next point: Speed. This applies to both Dooku and Maul. I consider my team slightly faster than yours because they have actually proven to be quicker than Jedi (Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon respectively) in combat, both of whom are roughly even with Bane and Zannah in speed (quotes below). Qui-Gon for instance has swung his blade fast enough to produce a shield and block hails of blaster bolts; Obi-Wan has deflected fire from entire armies of droids at once and reacted to ships flying at sublight speeds (quotes below). These should make Jinn and Kenobi level with Bane and Zannah in speed, but Dooku and Maul were faster than they were. However, I will point out that this is a marginal disparity. Maul being faster than Qui-Gon and Dooku being faster than Obi-Wan did nothing to prevent those two Jedi from fighting them (even if they were incapable of beating the Sith Lords). So although I would say my team is faster, the separation in speed is not huge and not enough to drastically alter the outcome but still worth mentioning.
 
For Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan:

Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Tiin, and Ki-Adi-Mundi surged from the pyramid entrance, engaging the terrorists that had driven them back. A quarter of the way across the immense plaza, the Jedi spread out in a wedge formation, their constantly moving blades fending off blaster bolts loosed from ahead and to either side. Behind the energy barrier fashioned by the lightsabers, Yaddle, Depa, Vergere, and two of the judicials raced out to divert fire from the rear.

--Taken from Cloak of Deception

An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once. Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there...
Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams, blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield that splattered blaster bolts in all directions, his presence alone became a weapon: as he spun and whirled through the control center's superstructure, the blasts of particle cannons from power droids destroyed equipment and shattered girders and unleashed a torrent of red-hot debris that crashed to the deck, crushing droids on all sides.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Obi-Wan was already making that exact move as Anakin spoke. But they were inverted to each other: breaking right shot him one way while Anakin whipped the other. The tri-fighters' cannons ripped space between them, tracking faster than their starfighters could slip. His onboard threat display chimed a warning: two of the droids had remote sensor locks on him. The others must have lit up his partner. "Anakin! Slip-jaws!"
"My thought exactly."
They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.
But these particular pilots were far from merely human.
The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

And Maul and Dooku:

Even without knowing anything else, Qui-Gon knew this man was trained in the fighting arts of a Jedi, a skilled and dangerous adversary. Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger than Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly.

--Taken from The Phantom Menace

The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat.

--Taken from The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader

And speaking of Maul, a duel between him and Zannah would be interesting. Once again, I would give Maul a nod in the skill department. He has beaten several opponents (some of them renowned swordmasters and some of them actually tested as swordsmasters) such as Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anoon Bondara, Darsha Assant, and the Nightsister Mighella. Zannah's best combat feat is defending well against Bane. Maul, as a much more offensive fighter (Juyo being his preferred style) is obviously antithetical to Zannah who practices Soresu. As I see it, Maul would charge directly at Zannah and begin slashing at her immediately (especially since he has noted his disdain for Dun Moch), and Zannah would begin parrying his strokes. This could end in different ways depending on how they deal with one another. If Maul applies his strategic training as he should and combines that with his superior lightsaber expertise, I think he would win more often than not. Zannah's best hope is to utilize her sorcery against him, but this has drawbacks. For one, she requires concentration to perform these powers against other Force sensitives, and against a fighter as aggressive as Maul, she may not find many opportunities to do that. Moreover, Maul has repulsed an Iktotchi telepath from his mind on account of the darkness residing in his mind (scans below). Now, this may not necessarily preclude the option of Zannah being effective with her sorcery, because it could be argued how that defense would match against Zannah, but it could afford more resistance that Zannah will be met with in her attempts to influence him with her sorcery. 
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Last time, you mentioned that Zannah might simply evade Maul and activate her Concealment to avoid a close quarter confrontation with him. This is possible, I guess, but not probable. For one, she has to escape his line of sight. While this could be possible because of the buildings and structures in the area, she needs to move fast in order to withdraw from Maul. He has repeatedly traveled faster than can be seen. In fact, he has leaped distances invisibly fast, and his sprinting speed should outweigh his jumping speed (quotes below). When you examine Maul's Force senses, senses which have allowed him to shoot at invisible targets without any difficulty (quotes below), and pile them with his movement speed, it could prove especially problematic for Zannah to flee the area. However, supposing she succeeds in that tactic (and supposing she chooses that tactic from the outset, which is debatable in itself), Maul knows Force Concealment as well (quotes below). While Zannah's efficiency is clearly better (she has infiltrated the Jedi Temple unnoticed for a time), she has never detected another Force sensitive who was familiar with Concealment. In other words, Maul would be unable to sense Zannah, but Zannah would be unable to sense Maul too. From that, it would devolve into a stealth pursuit with both looking to catch the other off-guard. Maul might be better suited toward that in a literal sense because his whole function as a Sith Lord revolved around assassination, infiltration, tracking, and so on, but Zannah's power with Concealment could misdirect him so that even when he is standing very close to her (without seeing her directly of course), his inability to find her in the Force could lead him to believe she is not there even though she is. So if this really did become a matter of "Maul and Zannah hide their presences in the Force, and both have to rely on their physical senses to find one another," it could probably lean toward either one. Maul may find Zannah first; she may find him first. Either way, unless they land a fatal blow as their opening strike upon finding the other, chances are the contest would just become a duel again, and as I said, Maul should take more wins than losses. As a whole, this issue of her hiding from him lacks feasibility, in my opinion, both in likelihood for the strategy to be used and in the effects to make much difference.

Desperate, she reached for her wrist launcher. Her only chance was to hit the horned one squarely and hope that the explosion would be contained enough by the other's body to allow Lihnn to survive. But as she triggered the launcher the tattooed man seemed to disappear in a blur.

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Then he sprang to a series of other sites that ultimately carried him to the wall of the principal building, moving with such speed the entire time that whatever holorecordings were being made wouldnt show him unless they were played in slow motion.

--Taken from Darth Maul: Saboteur

Running fast along the volcanic mountain slope on Orsis, Maul gnashed his teeth as another low-energy blaster bolt tore through the thin fabric of his utility suit and slammed into his back. He ignored the pain and kept running. His pursuers were Meltch Krakko and the two Rodian cadets, Hubnutz and Fretch, and the goal of their exercise was to capture Maul. Krakko and the Rodians were wearing mimetic suits, energy-powered cloaks that allowed for almost perfect camouflage in any environment.

Maul approached the rim of the mountain's valley, where glacial water and wind had carved a maze of tall, rocky formations. He darted into the labyrinth, never pausing to catch his breath. More blaster bolts zinged past his body. If his pursuers' blasters had been set to kill, he would have been dead already, a fact that infuriated him. But because Sidious and Trezza had forbidden him from revealing his Force powers to Orsis faculty and cadets, he was obliged to let his pursuers shoot him occasionally. If he'd dodged every blaster bolt, they would have ample reason to suspect he was a Force user.
Without glancing back, he drew his own blaster, which was also set at nonlethal power, and returned fire. He felt his rage increase as he deliberately missed his attackers. Although their mimetic suits rendered Krakko and the Roadians practically invisible, Maul had no difficulty sensing their exact positions behind him. He could have shot at each one of them with his eyes closed, but that would have been against the rules that Sidious and Trezza had established.

Maul was done with restraining his powers, and pretending to be something he wasn't. Summoning the Force, he launched himself from the overhang and sailed up and out of the chasm. He somersaulted and twisted in midair, flipping his body over the three camouflaged hunters so that he landed on his feet, facing their backs. Startled, Krakko and the Rodians turned fast. Maul had already drawn his blaster and opened fire at them at point-blank range. Krakko grunted and the Rodians cried out in pain as the blaster bolts hit them. They jumped and rolled away from the chasm's edge, firing back at Maul. For a moment, they moved as if their mimetic suits still gave them an advantage over their prey. Maul used the Force to avoid being hit while he rapidly squeezed and released his blaster's trigger, moving his arm back and forth to aim and fire at each of his cringing targets. He didn't miss once.

--Taken from The Wrath of Darth Maul

Maul quickly faded back into the shadows of the underground thorough fare and watched them pass. Both matched the descriptions he had been given by the Baragwin bartender. Excellent. With any luck, they would lead him to his prey. He followed them at a safe distance, making use of shadows and concealment when it was available and trusting to the cloaking power of the Force when it was not.

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
 
Your move, sir.
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#3 Posted by TrueIlluminatus (9579 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate will probably be more entertaining than The Lucky One. 

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#4 Posted by steelhound56 (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@Illuminatus said:

This debate will probably be more entertaining than The Lucky One.

QFT

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#5 Posted by ssejllenrad (13110 posts) - - Show Bio

@Illuminatus said:

This debate will probably be more entertaining than The SW Prequel Trilogy.

Fixed!

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#6 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for XMan.

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#7 Posted by Tiamat (2080 posts) - - Show Bio

Scans stolen. :D

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#8 Posted by JediXMan (42085 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467:

Okay. Let's continue this.

While it's not in order, I would like to address the Iktotchi moment first, because it's been something I wanted to talk about for awhile:

I don't think that would occur here for three reasons:

1. Sorcery was not used; even if it was, it is not nearly the same level of Zannah's abilities.

2. The Iktotchi entered his mind; Zannah doesn't do that. To my recollection, she never entered somebody's mind. She used spells to plague a person's mind with visions to torment her victims. They even worked on Bane for a time when they fought.

3. The darkness within Maul would not repel Zannah as it did the Iktotchi. She is also a creature of darkness. Regardless as to the level of darkness, the point is that she would be prepared for such a thing, since she could sense the darkness in him without entering his mind.

So I still think her Sorcery has the potential to work; if nothing else, it's a chance to catch Maul off guard to perform a potentially lethal strike while he's off balance - especially since the Iktotchi incident was out of combat and the guy kinda stood there talking about his telepathy, potentially giving Maul some time to prepare himself, even if he didn't do it consciously

The fight also takes place on Ambria, giving Zannah the opportunity to spawn the black tendrils, which she used on Bane when her lightsaber wasn't enough. I that Maul is the superior duelist; there's no doubt about that. But I think it's very plausible that Zannah could hold him off gain the distance she needs to perform one of her spells.

I think we discussed the feat with Set Harth where Zannah dodged an attack that moved at the speed of thought; I believe we came to the conclusion that it was rather ambiguous – as most “speed of thought” feats tend to be. So it’s probably not worth noting; though it is just another example of her fighting other Force sensitives. It’s also worth noting that she briefly held off a bloodlusted Bane when she was still inexperienced and he fully believed she had betrayed him – and I believe his fury was enhanced from the Orbalisks.

As for Bane and Dooku, this is a toss up for me. Dooku is obviously the better duelist, whereas Bane is the physically stronger duelist. Bane is also a bit unorthodox, and might utilize physical combat in the fight. He is also known for taking a great deal of pain and drawing on it; I don't recall if Dooku has done such a thing, or if he does it often.

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#9 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan: You should take a look at the Darth Vader v. Monster Rancher thread. 
 
Also, seeing you and Silver show your stuff in a thread like this is just fantastic.
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#10 Posted by JediXMan (42085 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida:

It's a lot of fun.

We did another one once before. You should check it out; it was good. It was the Nihilus vs Exar Kun debate.

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#11 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan: Thanks, I'll look it up
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#12 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan: Good post. I will refrain from replying until you post the rest of your points, but before that, one quick note: 
 
@JediXMan said: 

The fight also takes place on Ambria, giving Zannah the opportunity to spawn the black tendrils, which she used on Bane when her lightsaber wasn't enough.

Unless I misunderstood something here, the battle takes place on Muunilinst, not Ambria. The OP says that Bane and Zannah travel from Ambria to Muunilinst.
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#13 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
  


I love that you used this. 
 
I do have a quick question for you two experts. Where does Celeste Morne fit among the Jedi and Sith? (You two have gotten me reading Star Wars comics lol)
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#14 Posted by JediXMan (42085 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@JediXMan: Good post. I will refrain from replying until you post the rest of your points, but before that, one quick note:

@JediXMan said:

The fight also takes place on Ambria, giving Zannah the opportunity to spawn the black tendrils, which she used on Bane when her lightsaber wasn't enough.

Unless I misunderstood something here, the battle takes place on Muunilinst, not Ambria. The OP says that Bane and Zannah travel from Ambria to Muunilinst.

You can reply now. I added the points I forgot about; prior, I only had the Iktotchi comment.

Ah. My mistake. I misread. I just saw "Ambria" in the sentence and ran with it.

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#15 Posted by JediXMan (42085 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida:

Eh... below Vader, above Darth Krayt (obviously). I rank her as a mid-high Dark Jedi (not Sith. Just those Dark Jedi; Jerec, Desann, etc.). Above faux Sith.

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#16 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said: 

While it's not in order, I would like to address the Iktotchi moment first, because it's been something I wanted to talk about for awhile:

I don't think that would occur here for three reasons:

1. Sorcery was not used; even if it was, it is not nearly the same level of Zannah's abilities.

2. The Iktotchi entered his mind; Zannah doesn't do that. To my recollection, she never entered somebody's mind. She used spells to plague a person's mind with visions to torment her victims. They even worked on Bane for a time when they fought.

3. The darkness within Maul would not repel Zannah as it did the Iktotchi. She is also a creature of darkness. Regardless as to the level of darkness, the point is that she would be prepared for such a thing, since she could sense the darkness in him without entering his mind.

1. True, but Sith sorcery often involves abilities that are telepathic in nature, such as illusions, one of Zannah's preferred talents. 
 
2. I am fairly certain she does and is required to penetrate another's mind. While it is true that Force Illusions sometimes manifest as almost hologrammic in their state, appearing to be Force energies coalescing into shapes and forms that are not tangible but are physically visible and not exclusively mentally visible, Zannah's seemed to be the type of Illusions that existed purely in the mind of her victim. The examples that comes to mind is from Rule of Two when she aimed her sorcery at one of Hetton's subordinates (quote below). The descriptions state outright that Zannah violated Cyndra's mind in order to afflict her with her illusory powers. Regarding her sorcery working on Bane, that is a good point, but as I recall, Zannah needed to concentrate in order to accomplish that. Now, granted, since she managed it in the middle of a duel, that does show that she was able to gain some breathing room so that she could focus on her sorcery instead, but could she do that with Maul as well? Juyo is more aggressive than Djem So, and unlike Bane, Maul relies strictly on his armed fighting technique while Bane draws on both his lightsaber and offensive Force powers in the midst of duels (although he may not have used a Force power on Zannah before she sent her Illusions into his mind; quite honestly, I forgot how she succeeded in halting the duel for the very brief interval it took for her to summon her sorcery). I do also have to admit that Bane's mental defenses are more tested and impressive than Maul's; he was unaffected by Kaan's Force suggestions, which were flawless in their administering influence over the other Brotherhood Sith (not that the Brotherhood members themselves were typically very powerful, but the point stands). Still, I question whether Zannah could find the chance to do such a thing against Maul.

Zannah shook her elbow free of Cyndra's grasp and raised her shackled hands before her face. Weaving her ringers in a complex pattern in the air, she reached out with the Force and plunged deep inside the Chiss woman's mind to find her secret, most primal fears. Buried in her subconscious were nameless horrors: abominations and creatures of nightmare never meant to see the light of day. Drawing on the power of Sith sorcery, Zannah plucked them out and brought them to life one by one.
The entire process took less than a second. In that time Cyndra had drawn her weapon, but instead of pointing it at Zannah she suddenly screamed and aimed it high in the air above her, firing wildly at demons conjured from her own mind that only she could see.

--Taken from Rule of Two
 
3. That part I have to concede to though. Dark siders may not necessarily be as susceptible to it.
 

So I still think her Sorcery has the potential to work; if nothing else, it's a chance to catch Maul off guard to perform a potentially lethal strike while he's off balance - especially since the Iktotchi incident was out of combat and the guy kinda stood there talking about his telepathy, potentially giving Maul some time to prepare himself,even if he didn't do it consciously

Hmm, that could be true, but I am more inclined to believe that was the natural state of his mind. Most Sith seem to have darker internal states regardless. Remember in Empire's End when Vima Da Boda attempted to trick the Emperor by pretending to be Leia, and when she barely brushed her mind with his, she was repulsed by the darkness there and alerted him to the fact that she was not Leia? It just seems to be a constant feature of massive dark side-adherence. As well, it has been noted several times that Jedi and Sith can often be more resistant to mental intrusion and manipulation, though this is not always the case. This is partly speculative on my part, because we have never seen Maul demonstrate telepathic shielding outside of simply possessing a revolting mind to enter which is not exactly the same, but Maul should be somewhat more protected from that form of attack. However, as I said, Bane is superior to Maul in that area; so if Zannah could find the chance to affect Maul, she probably could. 
 
However, I seem to remember that Bane broke out of her sorcerous/telepathic powers and began striking at her again before she conjured her tendrils. Do you remember how that happened? 
 

I that Maul is the superior duelist; there's no doubt about that. But I think it's very plausible that Zannah could hold him off gain the distance she needs to perform one of her spells.

I think we discussed the feat with Set Harth where Zannah dodged an attack that moved at the speed of thought; I believe we came to the conclusion that it was rather ambiguous – as most “speed of thought” feats tend to be. So it’s probably not worth noting; though it is just another example of her fighting other Force sensitives. It’s also worth noting that she briefly held off a bloodlusted Bane when she was still inexperienced and he fully believed she had betrayed him – and I believe his fury was enhanced from the Orbalisks.

Well, faster than the speed of thought, in general, is supposed to be a very good speed feat and is, honestly. But numerous characters in Maul's class have managed that. Vader, Grievous, Mace Windu, Anakin, and so on. While I have no specific examples of Maul replicating that feat to the letter, he should be capable of it. 
 
But you do have a point here. She did defend from Bane's onslaught after he incorrectly assumed she brought Hetton to kill Bane, and yes, he did have the orbalisks which do enhance his powers. Also, if I recall, the book said that Zannah never returned a counterattack. He did disarm her, but she was not at her peak. A nice showing for her defensive skills. Could she fend off Maul effectually enough to use her spells for a majority though? I think it would be possible for her to but only a small amount of the time. Maul is simply more aggressive, more agile, and more skilled, and I think that combination could grant him most wins over Zannah. 
 

As for Bane and Dooku, this is a toss up for me. Dooku is obviously the better duelist, whereas Bane is the physically stronger duelist. Bane is also a bit unorthodox, and might utilize physical combat in the fight. He is also known for taking a great deal of pain and drawing on it; I don't recall if Dooku has done such a thing, or if he does it often.

Dooku amplifying his powers with his pain has never happened to my knowledge, but as a dark sider, he habitually channels negative traits such as pain, death, aggressive/egocentric emotions, and so on. He did feed on Anakin's fear in their duel in RotS; pain should be within his capacity to absorb.
 
Regarding fighting more physically, this is true, and Bane would fight more close quarter than Dooku is probably affiliated with. But there have been instances of Dooku resorting to physical blows instead of lightsaber strikes, such as when he kicked Anakin a few meters away from himself in RotS. As for fighting in unorthodox manner, Makashi is Dooku's expertise, but he has in the past utilized more unexpected tactics, such as when he hurled an object at Quinlan Vos' back (scan below). Now, Lightning is a power Bane enjoys very frequently, but Dooku seems to maintain as much capability for invocation for that ability as Bane. Immediately after disarming Sora Bulq, he produced Lightning to render him unconscious (scan below). Yes, he disarmed him first, but I have similarly never seen Bane shoot Lightning while swinging his lightsaber too. There was also when Dooku knocked over one of the pillars onto Anakin and Obi-Wan while in a lightsaber lock with Yoda, and he threw chairs and a table at Anakin without breaking use of his lightsaber (quotes below). I think Dooku's skill in combination with his ability to command the Force during combat could ward off Bane's own somewhat lesser skills and offensive applications of the Force.
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Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.  
"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back. 
"The battle is far from over!" Dooku stubbornly argued. "This is just the beginning!" Reaching into the Force, he took hold of one of the huge cranes within the hangar and threw it down at Obi-Wan and Anakin.

--Taken from Attack of the Clones

Anakin launched himself at Dooku's back—and the Count half turned, gesturing casually while holding Obi-Wan at bay with an elegant one handed bind. Chairs leapt up from the situation table and whirled toward Anakin's head. He slashed the first one in half contemptuously, but the second caught him across the knees and the third battered his shoulder and knocked him down.
He snarled to himself and reached through the Force to pick up some chairs of his own—and the situation table itself slammed into him and drove him back to crush him against the wall.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
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#17 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan: An issue we have yet to cover is Maul and Zannah's respective power. Now, as with Dooku and Bane, I would consider your side more powerful. Zannah is more potent in the Force than Maul is. Greater potential, greater knowledge, greater accomplishments. What sets her apart from Maul to me is of course her sorcery. With that said, if we were isolating this power reference to all of Zannah's powers minus her sorcery, then Maul and Zannah should be rough equals in terms of power. Neither is a telekinetic powerhouse, and their feats in that regard balance one another out. Zannah has torn off Darovit's hand, killed people, and hurled Bane and Serra away. Maul has shattered a door, hurled several people out of his path, used Lightsaber Throw, disabled locks, and moved a large boulder eight or so meters (quotes below). Neither is especially versatile either. I vaguely remember Zannah displaying Force Deflection (IIRC; correct me on that if I'm wrong). Maul can control gravity to slow a descent and probed several people's minds. But aside from these, neither has many other abilities. With that said, Zannah's mystical faculties place her on a tier above Maul, but since the outcome would be decided by a duel where sorcerous powers are more tautly held at bay, these other abilities do bear discussing. And in these others, Maul could match her.

Darth Maul pulled his double lightsaber from his belt and held his thumb upon the ignition button. He took a deep breath and centered himself in the swirls and eddies of the dark side. Then, his power and concentration thus augmented, he thrust forward his free hand as though hurling an invisible ball. The door shattered inward.

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Maul deactivated both blades. He reached out with his free hand, and the holocron leapt from the dead Hutt's grasp into his own. Stuffing it into a belt compartment, he turned and ran from the room. At the top of the stairs he plunged recklessly through the gambling chamber, hurling guests and workers aside with savage Force-laden gestures.
He reached the street and paused, looking first one way, then another for his prey. Pavan and the droid were not in sight. Maul gritted his teeth. They would not be permitted to slip away again! One way or another, he was determined to end this chore. It had already gone on far too long.
He sought the dark side once more, bade it illuminate the path his quarry had taken. Then he began to move, shoving his way through the hapless press of street people. Though his appearance alone was enough to cause most of the hard cases on the street to give him a wide berth, his progress was still too slow. Enough of this! Maul thought. He unleashed the dark side, using the Force like a battering ram against those who got in his way.

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

One speeder bike was ahead of the other. Maul deactivated one of his lightsaber's blades and hurled it toward the first of the oncoming speeders like a spear. It pierced the officer's armored chest while the Sith, again assisted by the Force, jumped from the descending PCBU toward the other officer. By the time he had landed on the speeder his lightsaber had rejoined him, snatched back to him by a feathery runner of the Force.

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Maul suspected the interrogation serum would be useful against a Bartokk. He unclamped the container from the droid's body and pocketed the device. He returned his gaze to the cell door. Using the Force, he concentrated on the door's locking mechanism. He heard a clank as a heavy bolt slid back into the wall.

--Taken from Episode 1 Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul

On Railtiir, at the site of what had only recently been the Bartokks' fortress, Darth Maul used the Force to lift a heavy boulder from a pile of rubble. Maul had used the Sith Infiltrator's sensors to scan the fortress ruins for any sign of C-3PX. The sensors penetrated deep below the  collapsed floors and fallen walls, searching for any trace of metal that might belong to the golden assassin droid. Now, Maul found himself sifting through the area of what had been a chamber near the fortress's dungeon. Maul did not watch the boulder as it levitated away through the air, and he ignored the loud thud, eight meters away, that sounded as he released the boulder from his power.

--Taken from Episode 1 Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul

I think this levels it out. Again, Zannah is more powerful due to her sorcery, but because Maul can match her in other applications of the Force (mainly TK, which is one of the most commonly used powers in the duration of duels) and because he is a more skilled duelist with a minor speed edge, he could wither her chances to call on her Sith magic, which in my opinion is her only conceivable means of victory.
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#18 Posted by UNIQUE69 (200 posts) - - Show Bio

team 1

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#19 Posted by JediXMan (42085 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@JediXMan said:

While it's not in order, I would like to address the Iktotchi moment first, because it's been something I wanted to talk about for awhile:

I don't think that would occur here for three reasons:

1. Sorcery was not used; even if it was, it is not nearly the same level of Zannah's abilities.

2. The Iktotchi entered his mind; Zannah doesn't do that. To my recollection, she never entered somebody's mind. She used spells to plague a person's mind with visions to torment her victims. They even worked on Bane for a time when they fought.

3. The darkness within Maul would not repel Zannah as it did the Iktotchi. She is also a creature of darkness. Regardless as to the level of darkness, the point is that she would be prepared for such a thing, since she could sense the darkness in him without entering his mind.

1. True, but Sith sorcery often involves abilities that are telepathic in nature, such as illusions, one of Zannah's preferred talents.

2. I am fairly certain she does and is required to penetrate another's mind. While it is true that Force Illusions sometimes manifest as almost hologrammic in their state, appearing to be Force energies coalescing into shapes and forms that are not tangible but are physically visible and not exclusively mentally visible, Zannah's seemed to be the type of Illusions that existed purely in the mind of her victim. The examples that comes to mind is from Rule of Two when she aimed her sorcery at one of Hetton's subordinates (quote below). The descriptions state outright that Zannah violated Cyndra's mind in order to afflict her with her illusory powers. Regarding her sorcery working on Bane, that is a good point, but as I recall, Zannah needed to concentrate in order to accomplish that. Now, granted, since she managed it in the middle of a duel, that does show that she was able to gain some breathing room so that she could focus on her sorcery instead, but could she do that with Maul as well? Juyo is more aggressive than Djem So, and unlike Bane, Maul relies strictly on his armed fighting technique while Bane draws on both his lightsaber and offensive Force powers in the midst of duels (although he may not have used a Force power on Zannah before she sent her Illusions into his mind; quite honestly, I forgot how she succeeded in halting the duel for the very brief interval it took for her to summon her sorcery). I do also have to admit that Bane's mental defenses are more tested and impressive than Maul's; he was unaffected by Kaan's Force suggestions, which were flawless in their administering influence over the other Brotherhood Sith (not that the Brotherhood members themselves were typically very powerful, but the point stands). Still, I question whether Zannah could find the chance to do such a thing against Maul.

... what, you thought I forgot?

1. True.

2. From the looks of it, Bane just attacked her, she survived, and unleashed her Sorcery before Bane could press. It's also worth noting that Bane studied how to resist Sorcery, in preparation for their inevitable confrontation, something I doubt Palpatine taught Maul, considering how rare Sorcery is.

@Silver2467 said:

3. That part I have to concede to though. Dark siders may not necessarily be as susceptible to it.

So I still think her Sorcery has the potential to work; if nothing else, it's a chance to catch Maul off guard to perform a potentially lethal strike while he's off balance - especially since the Iktotchi incident was out of combat and the guy kinda stood there talking about his telepathy, potentially giving Maul some time to prepare himself, even if he didn't do it consciously

Hmm, that could be true, but I am more inclined to believe that was the natural state of his mind. Most Sith seem to have darker internal states regardless. Remember in Empire's End when Vima Da Boda attempted to trick the Emperor by pretending to be Leia, and when she barely brushed her mind with his, she was repulsed by the darkness there and alerted him to the fact that she was not Leia? It just seems to be a constant feature of massive dark side-adherence. As well, it has been noted several times that Jedi and Sith can often be more resistant to mental intrusion and manipulation, though this is not always the case. This is partly speculative on my part, because we have never seen Maul demonstrate telepathic shielding outside of simply possessing a revolting mind to enter which is not exactly the same, but Maul should be somewhat more protected from that form of attack. However, as I said, Bane is superior to Maul in that area; so if Zannah could find the chance to affect Maul, she probably could.

However, I seem to remember that Bane broke out of her sorcerous/telepathic powers and began striking at her again before she conjured her tendrils. Do you remember how that happened?

While this is true, it is also true that Palpatine is seen as pure darkness on more than one occasion. I have no difficulty believing that all Sith have a level of telepathic protection and an inner rage, but I think the comparison does not quite fit - though perhaps I'm reading too much into it.

Bane gathered his rage and unleashed a sort of Force Scream that manifested as violet light in his own head, and the force of it was enough to break himself free and knock Zannah back.

@Silver2467 said:

I that Maul is the superior duelist; there's no doubt about that. But I think it's very plausible that Zannah could hold him off gain the distance she needs to perform one of her spells.

I think we discussed the feat with Set Harth where Zannah dodged an attack that moved at the speed of thought; I believe we came to the conclusion that it was rather ambiguous – as most “speed of thought” feats tend to be. So it’s probably not worth noting; though it is just another example of her fighting other Force sensitives. It’s also worth noting that she briefly held off a bloodlusted Bane when she was still inexperienced and he fully believed she had betrayed him – and I believe his fury was enhanced from the Orbalisks.

Well, faster than the speed of thought, in general, is supposed to be a very good speed feat and is, honestly. But numerous characters in Maul's class have managed that. Vader, Grievous, Mace Windu, Anakin, and so on. While I have no specific examples of Maul replicating that feat to the letter, he should be capable of it.

But you do have a point here. She did defend from Bane's onslaught after he incorrectly assumed she brought Hetton to kill Bane, and yes, he did have the orbalisks which do enhance his powers. Also, if I recall, the book said that Zannah never returned a counterattack. He did disarm her, but she was not at her peak. A nice showing for her defensive skills. Could she fend off Maul effectually enough to use her spells for a majority though? I think it would be possible for her to but only a small amount of the time. Maul is simply more aggressive, more agile, and more skilled, and I think that combination could grant him most wins over Zannah.

Perhaps.

Keep in mind, however, that Zannah was inexperienced when she defended herself against Bane. She wasn't doing anything to stop him. In a duel with Maul, however - and in this scenario, she is far more experienced than she was when she fought the bloodlusted Bane - she would do what she did to Bane, which is gather he strength to unleash her Sorcery.

Maul might be more aggressive, but he is also more cocky. He might revel in the act of striking down a Sith, whereas Zannah would take the practical approach and strike him down when she had the chance.

@Silver2467 said:

As for Bane and Dooku, this is a toss up for me. Dooku is obviously the better duelist, whereas Bane is the physically stronger duelist. Bane is also a bit unorthodox, and might utilize physical combat in the fight. He is also known for taking a great deal of pain and drawing on it; I don't recall if Dooku has done such a thing, or if he does it often.

Dooku amplifying his powers with his pain has never happened to my knowledge, but as a dark sider, he habitually channels negative traits such as pain, death, aggressive/egocentric emotions, and so on. He did feed on Anakin's fear in their duel in RotS; pain should be within his capacity to absorb.

Regarding fighting more physically, this is true, and Bane would fight more close quarter than Dooku is probably affiliated with. But there have been instances of Dooku resorting to physical blows instead of lightsaber strikes, such as when he kicked Anakin a few meters away from himself in RotS. As for fighting in unorthodox manner, Makashi is Dooku's expertise, but he has in the past utilized more unexpected tactics, such as when he hurled an object at Quinlan Vos' back (scan below). Now, Lightning is a power Bane enjoys very frequently, but Dooku seems to maintain as much capability for invocation for that ability as Bane. Immediately after disarming Sora Bulq, he produced Lightning to render him unconscious (scan below). Yes, he disarmed him first, but I have similarly never seen Bane shoot Lightning while swinging his lightsaber too. There was also when Dooku knocked over one of the pillars onto Anakin and Obi-Wan while in a lightsaber lock with Yoda, and he threw chairs and a table at Anakin without breaking use of his lightsaber (quotes below). I think Dooku's skill in combination with his ability to command the Force during combat could ward off Bane's own somewhat lesser skills and offensive applications of the Force.
No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.
"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back.
"The battle is far from over!" Dooku stubbornly argued. "This is just the beginning!" Reaching into the Force, he took hold of one of the huge cranes within the hangar and threw it down at Obi-Wan and Anakin.

--Taken from Attack of the Clones

Anakin launched himself at Dooku's back—and the Count half turned, gesturing casually while holding Obi-Wan at bay with an elegant one handed bind. Chairs leapt up from the situation table and whirled toward Anakin's head. He slashed the first one in half contemptuously, but the second caught him across the knees and the third battered his shoulder and knocked him down.
He snarled to himself and reached through the Force to pick up some chairs of his own—and the situation table itself slammed into him and drove him back to crush him against the wall.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Fair point. Though I can't help but notice that Dooku usually shines the most when he's being attacked by more than one person, and doesn't always utilize those tactics when fighting one on one. I'm just throwing that out there - it actually just occurred to me. As for Vos... ah, the guy's abilities never really impressed me. I don't think the same action would happen against Bane.

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#20 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said: 

... what, you thought I forgot?

...Of course not. No... 

@JediXMan said: 

2. From the looks of it, Bane just attacked her, she survived, and unleashed her Sorcery before Bane could press. It's also worth noting that Bane studied how to resist Sorcery, in preparation for their inevitable confrontation, something I doubt Palpatine taught Maul, considering how rare Sorcery is.

True enough. I doubt Maul has training to counteract Sith sorcery specifically. He does know alchemy to an extent, but your point remains. Though if we were discussing Zannah attempting a mental assault, the defenses crested in his mind might be all he needs, not an esoteric series of techniques designed to meaningfully surmount a spell. As an aside, I recall that Bane mused that the only defense against sorcery was just will; there was no other answer for it, no other unusual guard to encase his mind in. His response to sorcery was just will.

While this is true, it is also true that Palpatine is seen as pure darkness on more than one occasion. I have no difficulty believing that all Sith have a level of telepathic protection and an inner rage, but I think the comparison does not quite fit - though perhaps I'm reading too much into it.

Well, you might be reading too much into it in that you thought I meant that Maul is somehow comparable to Sidious; if I gave that impression, I apologize. My point was just that Sith often nurture an inward darkness that reflects their outward darker actions. Obviously, the darkness invested in Palpatine is more paramount and more all-consuming than Maul's, but the fact that Maul has emphasized his unity with darkness and the fact that the Iktotchi seemed to be repulsed by the darkness in his mind, it seems to be a trait already within Maul. 
 

Bane gathered his rage and unleashed a sort of Force Scream that manifested as violet light in his own head, and the force of it was enough to break himself free and knock Zannah back.

All right. So he had to disrupt Zannah's concentration. Worth noting.
 

Perhaps.

Keep in mind, however, that Zannah was inexperienced when she defended herself against Bane. She wasn't doing anything to stop him. In a duel with Maul, however - and in this scenario, she is far more experienced than she was when she fought the bloodlusted Bane - she would do what she did to Bane, which is gather he strength to unleash her Sorcery.

Maul might be more aggressive, but he is also more cocky. He might revel in the act of striking down a Sith, whereas Zannah would take the practical approach and strike him down when she had the chance.

That could be her downfall though. Zannah needs time to absorb, so to speak, the necessary energy and then suffuse it into her attack. If Maul never lends her the proper chance or time to gather that much power, it could amount to nothing. 
 
Regarding whether Maul would enjoy the act of fighting a Sith, I doubt that. When Sidious stranded Maul on Hypori to fend for himself, Sidious returned after a month had passed and lied to Maul, saying that he had trained another Sith apprentice that he was replacing Maul with. This infuriated Maul, and when Sidious challenged him to a duel to test him, Maul fought with all he had. Maul planned to kill Sidious and then kill the other apprentice who was to usurp him. Once Sidious defeated Maul after allowing Maul to vent his ire, Maul was of course told the truth and passed his test. Shortly before the Battle of Naboo, Maul suspected that there might be another Sith Lord, Plagueis, that Sidious deferred to. He was unsure of this, but he had reason to contemplate it. That too angered Maul. My point is that if Maul believes there is another Sith Lord aside from himself and his master, he will react violently. He dislikes the notion of there being other Sith Lords that could endanger his role in the Sith society. 
 

Fair point. Though I can't help but notice that Dooku usually shines the most when he's being attacked by more than one person, and doesn't always utilize those tactics when fighting one on one. I'm just throwing that out there - it actually just occurred to me. As for Vos... ah, the guy's abilities never really impressed me. I don't think the same action would happen against Bane.

He did against Quin though, and he did against Yoda (granted he and Yoda paused first, then Dooku toppled the crane onto Anakin and Obi-Wan).
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#21 Posted by JediXMan (42085 posts) - - Show Bio

... heh, heh, heh.

@Silver2467 said:

@JediXMan said:

2. From the looks of it, Bane just attacked her, she survived, and unleashed her Sorcery before Bane could press. It's also worth noting that Bane studied how to resist Sorcery, in preparation for their inevitable confrontation, something I doubt Palpatine taught Maul, considering how rare Sorcery is.

True enough. I doubt Maul has training to counteract Sith sorcery specifically. He does know alchemy to an extent, but your point remains. Though if we were discussing Zannah attempting a mental assault, the defenses crested in his mind might be all he needs, not an esoteric series of techniques designed to meaningfully surmount a spell. As an aside, I recall that Bane mused that the only defense against sorcery was just will; there was no other answer for it, no other unusual guard to encase his mind in. His response to sorcery was just will.

It's true that willpower was his only true defense against Sorcery. It's also true, however, that he knew she would utilize it. Maul has absolutely no reason to assume his opponent will be a practitioner of Sorcery - a rather proficient user, as Plagueis noted. So the fact remains that Bane, on some level, did prepare himself. He was also meditating before Zannah got there; it is quite possible he was readying himself.

@Silver2467 said:

While this is true, it is also true that Palpatine is seen as pure darkness on more than one occasion. I have no difficulty believing that all Sith have a level of telepathic protection and an inner rage, but I think the comparison does not quite fit - though perhaps I'm reading too much into it.

Well, you might be reading too much into it in that you thought I meant that Maul is somehow comparable to Sidious; if I gave that impression, I apologize. My point was just that Sith often nurture an inward darkness that reflects their outward darker actions. Obviously, the darkness invested in Palpatine is more paramount and more all-consuming than Maul's, but the fact that Maul has emphasized his unity with darkness and the fact that the Iktotchi seemed to be repulsed by the darkness in his mind, it seems to be a trait already within Maul.

No, I knew what you meant. I just have serious doubts that Zannah would be fazed by the darkness.

@Silver2467 said:

That could be her downfall though. Zannah needs time to absorb, so to speak, the necessary energy and then suffuse it into her attack. If Maul never lends her the proper chance or time to gather that much power, it could amount to nothing.

She didn't seem to need much. All she did was stay on the defensive and keep him at bay. Can she beat him in a straight-forward lightsaber duel? Absolutely not, but his overconfidence could be his own downfall. He might relish her immanent defeat, taking a bit of time, and therefore giving her the opportunity. Bane knew it was coming, and his mind was still almost shred to pieces. Maul does not have the benefit of knowing his enemy; Zannah might just be able to kill him.

@Silver2467 said:

Regarding whether Maul would enjoy the act of fighting a Sith, I doubt that. When Sidious stranded Maul on Hypori to fend for himself, Sidious returned after a month had passed and lied to Maul, saying that he had trained another Sith apprentice that he was replacing Maul with. This infuriated Maul, and when Sidious challenged him to a duel to test him, Maul fought with all he had. Maul planned to kill Sidious and then kill the other apprentice who was to usurp him. Once Sidious defeated Maul after allowing Maul to vent his ire, Maul was of course told the truth and passed his test. Shortly before the Battle of Naboo, Maul suspected that there might be another Sith Lord, Plagueis, that Sidious deferred to. He was unsure of this, but he had reason to contemplate it. That too angered Maul. My point is that if Maul believes there is another Sith Lord aside from himself and his master, he will react violently. He dislikes the notion of there being other Sith Lords that could endanger his role in the Sith society.

Well, in both scenarios, Maul is feeling... well, rather insecure of his place in the Sith Order (rightfully so). In this scenario, it seems Maul is secure in the fact that he is a Sith, and he has the opportunity to slay two legendary Sith Lords. What I'm saying is that he might take more pride here in the act.

@Silver2467 said:

Fair point. Though I can't help but notice that Dooku usually shines the most when he's being attacked by more than one person, and doesn't always utilize those tactics when fighting one on one. I'm just throwing that out there - it actually just occurred to me. As for Vos... ah, the guy's abilities never really impressed me. I don't think the same action would happen against Bane.

He did against Quin though, and he did against Yoda (granted he and Yoda paused first, then Dooku toppled the crane onto Anakin and Obi-Wan).

Again, I rather question Vos' overall abilities a bit. As for Yoda, he threatened Obi-Wan and Anakin to give himself a chance to escape. He didn't utilize it offensively.

I wonder if, later, we should... switch the two fights. Zannah vs Dooku, Bane vs Maul... after all, it would be fitting. Zannah's the master now. Could think of it as a "round 2" scenario.

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#22 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:

... heh, heh, heh.

This has to be the longest debate CV ever had... 
 

It's true that willpower was his only true defense against Sorcery. It's also true, however, that he knew she would utilize it. Maul has absolutely no reason to assume his opponent will be a practitioner of Sorcery

This is a fair point, unless, that is, Maul has studied Zannah enough to know about her proclivity for sorcery and alchemy. He did learn about Bane and others who constituted the original Banite line. It is conceivable, though theoretical, that he is aware of Zannah's talents. Just a thought.
 

a rather proficient user, as Plagueis noted.

Not to nitpick, but is that really what he said? It seemed to me that all Plagueis intoned was that Zannah was more proficient than Bane, and Bane himself admitted that he had little to no capacity at all for sorcery.

Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn’t been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

But your point remains, regardless.

So the fact remains that Bane, on some level, did prepare himself.

This is true.
 

He was also meditating before Zannah got there; it is quite possible he was readying himself.

I certainly believe he was readying himself, but whether he was readying himself for defense against Zannah's sorcerous powers is difficult to say. Many characters have meditated to osmose Force energies preceding an upcoming battle. Yoda did this before engaging Sidious in RotS (quote below). My point is, it is possible that Bane was preparing to guard himself against an attempt at sorcery, or it is possible he simply consumed energies within himself before the fight started. Or, maybe he did both. Impossible to say, really.

Yoda rose.
A gesture opened the grating of the vent shaft where he had waited in meditation, revealing the vast conic well that was the Grand Convocation Chamber of the Galactic Senate. It was sometimes called the Senate Arena. Today, this nickname would be particularly apt.
Yoda stretched blood back into his green flesh. This was his time. Nine hundred years of study and training, of teaching and of meditation, all now focused, and refined, and resolved into this single moment; the sole purpose of his vast span of existence had been to prepare him to enter the heart of night and bring his light against the darkness. He adjusted the angle of his blade against his belt. He draped his robe across his shoulders. With reverence, with gratitude, without fear, and without anger, Yoda went forth to war.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith 

No, I knew what you meant. I just have serious doubts that Zannah would be fazed by the darkness.

Which is understandable. After all, Sidious has read Maul's thoughts before without any obstructions; so Maul's mind isn't immune to piercing from a notable telepath. It just becomes an issue of whether or not Zannah could outstrip the threshold of resistance that Maul does have. I believe she could; my reservation lies in whether she would before Maul defeats her (at least for a majority).

She didn't seem to need much. All she did was stay on the defensive and keep him at bay. Can she beat him in a straight-forward lightsaber duel? Absolutely not, but his overconfidence could be his own downfall. He might relish her immanent defeat, taking a bit of time, and therefore giving her the opportunity. Bane knew it was coming, and his mind was still almost shred to pieces. Maul does not have the benefit of knowing his enemy; Zannah might just be able to kill him.

And this makes sense, but again, I doubt Maul would revel in a duel with a Sith whose intent it is to supplant him in the Banite system. I mentioned two instances of him showing the opposite reaction before. Besides that, I doubt Zannah could defend as well against Maul as she did against Bane. Bane may possess negligibly superior strength than Maul (we can argue that point shortly if you want), but Maul's skill and speed supersede his. 
 

Well, in both scenarios, Maul is feeling... well, rather insecure of his place in the Sith Order (rightfully so). In this scenario, it seems Maul is secure in the fact that he is a Sith, and he has the opportunity to slay two legendary Sith Lords. What I'm saying is that he might take more pride here in the act.

Not necessarily so. When Maul had suspicions of Plagueis' involvement in the Grand Plan, he had been deemed a Sith Lord for at least a few years by that point. This took place in Restraint, a story that occurred during The Phantom Menace. So he was by no means unstable in his thoughts of his role in the Sith organization at that time. I have no reason to believe he would respond any differently against Bane or Zannah then either. Both threaten his vocation within the Sith systems, and he has demonstrated more than once how maddening he finds that. 
 

Again, I rather question Vos' overall abilities a bit. As for Yoda, he threatened Obi-Wan and Anakin to give himself a chance to escape. He didn't utilize it offensively.

Fair enough, but I'm not really sure why this changes anything. To be sure, Dooku would be hard pressed to TK Bane directly, but he has succeeded in grasping telekinetic weapons against enemies before, such as when he threw chairs and a table at Anakin while dueling Obi-Wan. If he can evince that type of telekinetic control while in the midst of a duel, he could do so against only one challenger as well (especially since he already has, to varying degrees, in one on one fights).

I wonder if, later, we should... switch the two fights. Zannah vs Dooku, Bane vs Maul... after all, it would be fitting. Zannah's the master now. Could think of it as a "round 2" scenario.

I agree with you; we should cover all angles.
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#23 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Good debate so far guys......

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#24 Posted by XImpossibruX (5752 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

Good debate so far guys......

When i saw the Starwars names in the titles i was expecting you to be debating, you know alot about the SW Universe.

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#25 Posted by JediXMan (42085 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

Good debate so far guys......

After five short months.

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#26 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@ShootingNova said:

Good debate so far guys......

After five short months.

LOL, yeah.

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#28 Posted by JediXMan (42085 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan said:

@ShootingNova said:

Good debate so far guys......

After five short months.

LOL, yeah.

Think this thread was made before you even joined...

... wow. I gotta pick up the pace...

Moderator
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#29 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (21616 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm leaning forwards Silver. It's too close to call though.

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#30 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan said:

@ShootingNova said:

Good debate so far guys......

After five short months.

LOL, yeah.

Think this thread was made before you even joined...

... wow. I gotta pick up the pace...

Probably. But at first, when I joined, I was very silent and didn't appear often.

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#31 Edited by Xargo (959 posts) - - Show Bio

i believe almost everything about bane perfectly counters all of dooku's offensive tactics heavy effective saber attacks (which dooku has trouble defending against) strong force shield barrier would block all of dooku's efforts to deploy Tk and his tutaminis would prevents any force lightning attacks from tyranus so no dooku seems doomed, as for mauls telepathic defences I dont believ the same applies to sith sorcery plus I have reason to believe zannah's Tk feats are better than mauls so team 1

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#32 Edited by PLAYA1 (456 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm feeling that Dooku and Maul should win. But it's a damn good fight and any won majority is slight.

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#33 Posted by Eisenfauste (17366 posts) - - Show Bio

^purty much agree

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#34 Posted by i_like_swords (26079 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul and Dooku win.

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#35 Edited by Pharoh_Atem (44253 posts) - - Show Bio

Durron one-shots all four of them, via Alter Environment.

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#36 Posted by WollfMyth209 (15604 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is an ancient CaV bumped for the purpose of saying Bane>Dooku>Zannah>Maul in bad grammer?

Also, Maul and Tyranus win.

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#37 Posted by Smoke-W (402 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul and Dooku.