• 74 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for necromancer76
#51 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: And yet his “strongest version” performs no feats whatsoever that are comparable to Vader...

Avatar image for richard96
#52 Posted by Richard96 (5728 posts) - - Show Bio

@tenebrous_way:

“My approach is that a ship that is accelerated at it's full power directly at the building would destroy it, since it's physically equivalent to what Malgus did.”

Strongly debatable. I don’t think so.

Avatar image for tenebrous_way
#53 Posted by Tenebrous_Way (96 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for richard96
#54 Edited by Richard96 (5728 posts) - - Show Bio

@tenebrous_way:

I don’t think a 30-40 mt freighter can destroy the cathedral Vader brought down. Besides, it is irrilevant, cause the engine’s thrust malgus countered is a different thing from the kinetic energy of the freighter which would crash against the cathedral. Plus vader was injured, if I remember correctly.

Not to mention that we have no way to quantify the engine’s thrust malgus countered.

Avatar image for tenebrous_way
#55 Edited by Tenebrous_Way (96 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: The engines of these ships can accelerate at dozens of G's in the atmosphere (which is equivalent to multiply it's weight by the same ammount) according to several sources.

Here's an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkgzXpKbVGE (at 2:30)

(Note that it probably isn't even using it's full power)

About the cathedral: I'm talking about the pure energy output of the feat - and if it were distributed normally through the structure: if a ship is accelerated at 10G's or at 5G's, it would destroy the same surface of impact but the potential of destruction of the 10G's one would be mostly wasted away. If you could, however, divide 10G's in two ships of 5G's, the destruction would be far greater and energy output would be the same.

Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
#56 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

And yet his “strongest version” performs no feats whatsoever that are comparable to Vader...

So? Bane busted a temple with TK. That's already approaching Vader's cathedral feat. And Bane was massively pre-prime

Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
#57 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader is the 80 per cent of ROTS sidius, who, per the banite scaling, is a god compared to bane.

That quote is way too overblown. We've seen Sidious stomp Vader, and from across the galaxy.

Vader brought down cathedrals

Pre-prime Bane also brought down a temple.

A heavily pre-prime, severely injured Malgus blew apart multiple tons of rubble from two buildings and proceeded to stomp two Jedi (one of the Jedi was able to collapse two buildings with TK).

Avatar image for sithrevenant
#58 Posted by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Have you seen the size of the temple in SWTOR? It utterly dwarfs a cathedral.

Avatar image for necromancer76
#59 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: And Bane had a huge amp to do that. So the fact that Bane needs a dark side temple amp + a rage amp to perform his best feat that doesn’t even quite reach Vader’s feat that he performs while weakened should prove that Vader is solidly a tier above Bane.

Avatar image for sithrevenant
#60 Posted by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: Bane was nowhere near his prime on Lehon. Better yet, it's stated that DoE Bane had grown so powerful that he no longer benefitted from talismans or trinkets. A 'drop of water in an ocean' I believe was the actual term. The amp is irrelevant.

Avatar image for necromancer76
#61 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@sithrevenant: 1. For some reason, you think that I think that Lehon Bane is Prime Bane.

2. The amp is irrelevant? Infinite keks. The fact that Bane’s best feat required an amp is totally relevant to his entire character.

Avatar image for richard96
#62 Posted by Richard96 (5728 posts) - - Show Bio

@tenebrous_way:

“About the cathedral: I'm talking about the pure energy output of the feat - and if it were distributed normally through the structure: if a ship is accelerated at 10G's or at 5G's, it would destroy the same surface of impact but the potential of destruction of the 10G's one would be mostly wasted away. If you could, however, divide 10G's in two ships of 5G's, the destruction would be far greater and energy output would be the same.”

I think the force Malgus needed to hold the ship in place, that is the mass of the ship per, let’s say, 10 G, is not enough to bring down that cathedral even if it is equally distributed.

Avatar image for richard96
#63 Posted by Richard96 (5728 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages:

“That quote is way too overblown. We've seen Sidious stomp Vader, and from across the galaxy.”

That quote is GL’s word, and trumps on everything. Besides, ROTS Sidius never stomped Vader.

“Pre-prime Bane also brought down a temple.”

Bane just unleashed a force wave that shattered a load-bearing wall and caused the fall of the rakatan temple, which is far smaller than the cathedral vader’s brought down.

“A heavily pre-prime, severely injured Malgus blew apart multiple tons of rubble from two buildings”

Good for Malgus, but it isn’t making him a vader-tier.

Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
#64 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

That quote is GL’s word, and trumps on everything. Besides, ROTS Sidius never stomped Vader.

Except I wasn't talking about ROTS Sidious. Not that there's much of a difference between the two anyway.

Bane just unleashed a force wave that shattered a load-bearing wall and caused the fall of the rakatan temple

The wave was powerful enough to shake the entire temple.

which is far smaller than the cathedral vader’s brought down.

Based on?

Good for Malgus, but it isn’t making him a vader-tier.

Blasting away a mountain of duracrete piled on top him and stomping a Jedi who could effortlessly TK two buildings prior to multiple powers boosts, while pre-prime and dying, effortlessly one-shotting multiple Jedi with lightning while pre-prime and prior to a massive power-boost, and telekinetically dominating a strike team composed of either the likes of the Empire's Wrath/Nox or HoT/Barsen'thor, and forcing them to their knees with lightning. And the strike team only beat him via forcing him down the reactor shaft and yet it's implied that he still survived.

Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
#65 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

Have you seen the size of the temple in SWTOR? It utterly dwarfs a cathedral.

It also withstood bombardment from a Harrower Class Dreadnought.

Avatar image for richard96
#66 Edited by Richard96 (5728 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages:

“Except I wasn't talking about ROTS Sidious. Not that there's much of a difference between the two anyway.”

But the quote of the 80 per cent refers to ROTS sidius. The sidius which brought Vader on his knees is largely superior to ROTS Sidius. Sidius grew in power a lot after ROTS.

“There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.”

The shock wave shook the foundations of the temple, which consequently fell. Impressive, but the rakatan temple dwarfs in comparison to vader’s cathedral. The rakatan temple is only 20 meters high, the cathedral is described as a labyrinth. In addition, vader manipulated and shook the entire thing, bane only shook the foundations.

“Blasting away a mountain of duracrete piled on top him and stomping a Jedi who could effortlessly TK two buildings prior to multiple powers boosts, while pre-prime and dying, effortlessly one-shotting multiple Jedi with lightning while pre-prime and prior to a massive power-boost, and telekinetically dominating a strike team composed of either the likes of the Empire's Wrath/Nox or HoT/Barsen'thor, and forcing them to their knees with lightning. And the strike team only beat him via forcing him down the reactor shaft and yet it's implied that he still survived.”

A largely pre prime vader ragdolled starkiller’s clone, a more powerful version of a guy who could guide a star destroyer.

Casually ragdolls a large, very large boulder few months after mustafar (this boulder is arguably at least as heavy as the rubble Malgus blasted away, but Vader manipulated it with ease, while Malgus struggled a lot)

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833754-lift.jpg

Send hundreds of soldiers flying:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/3914942-7695568615-33344.jpg

Casually collapses an enourmous tree:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5835058-tree.jpg

All these feats accomplished years and years before his prime, and they trumps on Malgus’ ones, which had been accomplished with great effort (the rubble and holding in place a ship).

Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
#67 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidius grew in power a lot after ROTS.

Based on what? The only case you can make is that Sidious became more knowledgeable. Sidious only gained a power boost post-RotJ.

the rakatan temple dwarfs in comparison to vader’s cathedral. The rakatan temple is only 20 meters high

Retconned by SWTOR.

No Caption Provided

The temple in comparison to an 800-meter dreadnought.

A largely pre prime vader ragdolled starkiller’s clone

Except he didn't. It's a Force Grip at best. That's not ragdolling someone.

No Caption Provided

This is.

No Caption Provided

If Vader could ragdoll Marek at any point he would've destroyed Marek instead of their fight resulting in a stalemate.

Malgus, with TK simultaneously dominated the likes of Nox, who could call upon the power of 5 Sith Lords (who rivaled the likes of Tulak Hord, could pull ships from the sky, devour souls etc), the Empire's Wrath (who by Act 1 and being massively pre-prime could solo a thousand soldiers), The Grand Champion of the Great Hunt (who can solo several Jedi Knights and Masters whilst surrounded), Cipher Nine (who fought equally against Darth Jadus).

Casually ragdolls a large, very large boulder few months after mustafar (this boulder is arguably at least as heavy as the rubble Malgus blasted away, but Vader manipulated it with ease, while Malgus struggled a lot)

Except Malgus has also done the same while far from his prime. (Journal of Darth Malgus, Book of Sith)

Send hundreds of soldiers flying

Deceived Malgus has sent "bodies flying and slamming in all directions" with a TK blast.

Casually collapses an enourmous tree:

Except Vader had sliced the tree with his lightsaber prior to collapsing it. So...

they trumps on Malgus’ ones, which had been accomplished with great effort (the rubble

Yeah, let's ignore that Malgus was massively pre-prime, that he was severely injured after he just took a missile blast to his face (and still continues to slaughter republic soldiers), directly withstood a grenade to the face, and took a Force Blast that shattered a mountain.

We've never seen how much effort it would take for Vader to do the same. Canon Vader pulled a freighter from the sky with great effort, and the freighter had damaged engines. But this is a Legends thread so any comparison you want to draw between Canon Vader and Malgus is a non existent one.

Avatar image for richard96
#68 Edited by Richard96 (5728 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages:

“Based on what? The only case you can make is that Sidious became more knowledgeable. Sidious only gained a power boost post-RotJ.”

Based on that his feats are vastly better than those of the ROTS versions, and on the fact he was draining and feeding on the byss’ people. Regardless, this debate is pointless. Vader = 80 per cent of ROTS sidius, and it is GL’s word, that trumps on other evidences (that are absent, though. It is perfectly reasonable that Vader has such power).

“The temple in comparison to an 800-meter dreadnought.”

There isn’t only one rakatan temple. The picture you posted can refer to any rakatan temple. The one bane made collapse was stated by the novel itself to be 20 m high.

“Except he didn't. It's a Force Grip at best. That's not ragdolling someone.”

What is the difference? A force grip is a ragdoll. Besides, it is even pointed out by a quote:

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Vader was stated to be disinterested in the fight and he had already Galen at his mercy when he disarmed him.

“Malgus, with TK simultaneously dominated the likes of Nox, who could call upon the power of 5 Sith Lords (who rivaled the likes of Tulak Hord, could pull ships from the sky, devour souls etc), the Empire's Wrath (who by Act 1 and being massively pre-prime could solo a thousand soldiers), The Grand Champion of the Great Hunt (who can solo several Jedi Knights and Masters whilst surrounded), Cipher Nine (who fought equally against Darth Jadus).”

He force pushed them. That isn’t a ragdoll. Inferior force users can force push superior ones. Vader has scaling from Dooku, who casually TK DOMINATED ROTS Kenobi, a guy who wrecked and made levitate a giant formation of megaliths.

“Except Malgus has also done the same while far from his prime. (Journal of Darth Malgus, Book of Sith)”

How much large? With strain?

“Deceived Malgus has sent "bodies flying and slamming in all directions" with a TK blast.”

Again, how much bodies? Vader simultaneously held a force shield and scattered back HUNDREDS of soldiers.

“Yeah, let's ignore that Malgus was massively pre-prime, that he was severely injured after he just took a missile blast to his face (and still continues to slaughter republic soldiers), directly withstood a grenade to the face, and took a Force Blast that shattered a mountain.”

Even Vader was injured and without his mask when brought down the cathedral. Still better than Malgus.

“Except Vader had sliced the tree with his lightsaber prior to collapsing it. So...”

Did you see the size of that tree? It didn’t fall cause the saber cut. Besides, it isn’t even clear: the base of the tree is too large to be entirely cut by a LightSaber.

“ would take for Vader to do the same. Canon Vader pulled a freighter from the sky with great effort, and the freighter had damaged engines. But this is a Legends thread so any comparison you want to draw between Canon Vader and Malgus is a non existent one”

That was canon Vader who is significantly weaker than legends one.

Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
#69 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

Regardless, this debate is pointless. Vader = 80 per cent of ROTS sidius, and it is GL’s word, that trumps on other evidences (that are absent, though. It is perfectly reasonable that Vader has such power).

Ehhh...I don't see Vader, with choking Dooku or ragdolling Maul and Oppress with a mere fraction of his power.

There isn’t only one rakatan temple. The picture you posted can refer to any rakatan temple.

Except it's stated to be the same temple.

What is the difference? A force grip is a ragdoll. Besides, it is even pointed out by a quote:

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

He threw thew him like a ragdoll, not an actual "ragdoll" (like what Sidious did to Maul). Not to mention we've seen Starkiller break free multiple times from Vader's attempts.

Vader was stated to be disinterested in the fight and he had already Galen at his mercy when he disarmed him.

Except Galen had just disintegrated a half of a 300-meter frigate while simultaneously maintaining a Force Barrier that can withstand heat akin to that found in the outer layers of a star, fought through armies of Saber guards, Sith acolytes, and dozens of proxy droids and Starkiller clones prior to fighting Vader and was described as having "never been so exhausted at every level of his being"

He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned.

He force pushed them. That isn’t a ragdoll.

When did I claim he ragdolled them? Lol. He duels one of them while at the same time choking all the three of them simultaneously multiple times throughout the fight. And they only ever defeat him by forcing him down the reactor shaft.

Vader has scaling from Dooku,

So? Vader is > Dooku but not to a significant degree.

Dooku, who casually TK DOMINATED ROTS Kenobi

Except it was stated that Dooku had to gather power to do so.

Vader simultaneously held a force shield and scattered back HUNDREDS of soldiers.

These aren't hundreds, lmfao.

No Caption Provided

Even Vader was injured and without his mask when brought down the cathedral.

And Malgus tanked multiple explosions to the face, tanked a Force Wave that shattered an entire cliff, was burried under tons of rubble of two buildings and stomped still stomped two Jedi who could collapse building with TK.

Except I never said that Vader isn't better than Malgus only that they're comparable.

Did you see the size of that tree? It didn’t fall cause the saber cut.

Except I never said that the cut collapsed it, but merely made it easier for Vader to collapse the tree with TK.

That was canon Vader who is significantly weaker than legends one.

No Caption Provided

holy ****

Avatar image for i_like_swords
#70 Edited by i_like_swords (26198 posts) - - Show Bio

It seems quite obvious to me that Bane is superior to Malgus, that Zannah's going to have a field day with her telepathy, and the Banites have far superior teamwork.

And I hope we're not using game mechanics to try and justify Malgus Force choking three protagonists, considering the fact that the number of protagonists he is capable of choking always decreases if the number of people playing the strike decreases, and also that he can be defeated by just one of the protagonists, even non-Force sensitives, each fight having unique dialogue. He also loses the fight so badly, against 4 or 1, that he is incapable of killing the non Force user(s) present. How on earth does one lose a fight to two Force users and two muggles that can apparently be Force choked while resuming other activities?

Malgus being on Vader's level is hilarious for the record.

Avatar image for azronger
#71 Edited by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: I see you have stepped into the open, freely displaying your debating prowess at large. Your skills are considerable, but your views are misguided. Let me guide you on the right path, my apprentice.

Based on what? The only case you can make is that Sidious became more knowledgeable. Sidious only gained a power boost post-RotJ.

Force knowledge has historically correlated with power. One's understanding of the Force develops as one studies its mysteries, and their increased understanding further evolves their overall power and command of the Force. Examples of this can be seen with the Sith of the Banite line, whose "powers increased with each generation" "as they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force" according to Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook. Likewise, Grand Master Yoda was noted to be "just as powerful as Darth Sidious" by virtue of his knowledge of the Force in Mysteries of the Jedi. Palpatine's own expansion in power after the events of Return of the Jedi that you refer to came about with his continued research of the dark side as detailed in The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded.

Resurrected in a youthful clone body, Palpatine does not reveal himself immediately. Studying the dark side of the Force to become more powerful, his education results in three manifestos: The Book of Anger, The Weakness of Inferiors, and The Creation of Monsters.

The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded

Indeed, he studies the dark side to become more powerful, resulting in his Force skills becoming "significantly" more developed as per the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and the same source earlier states that "Palpatine was so powerful in this new incarnation that Luke felt the only way to defeat the Dark Side was to know its ways and find its weaknesses." This shows a nice contrast between the Emperor's respective power levels in Return of the Jedi and Dark Empire. In the former, Luke expresses thoughts about murdering the Emperor and saving the galaxy by doing do. In his anger he indeed does attempt to strike Palpatine down but is stopped by Vader before he can accomplish the deed. All such thoughts are absent in their second confrontation, and the conclusion Luke arrives at is that Palpatine is simply "so powerful" that the "only way" to defeat him is to feign loyalty and sabotage his plans from the inside.

Luke himself had grown "immensely more powerful" in the six years following Return of the Jedi according to The Official Star Wars Fact File issue 120, so it can be inferred that Palpatine would have received a similar if not an even more profound increment in power in that time, since Luke feels in battle he stands no chance against the dark tyrant despite his own more than substantial gains in Force strength. To put it simply, Luke judges the gap between himself and the Emperor to be greater in Dark Empire than it was in Return of the Jedi, indicating that the latter superseded the growth rate of a member of the Skywalker family, a lineage reputed for their extraordinary aptitude for learning and mastering the Force remarkably swiftly. Additionally, according to the same issue of The Official Star Wars Fact File, in the aftermath of his death at Endor, the Emperor took "years to regain his power," meaning he would have had less time than Luke to developed by a timeframe of multiple years as several of them would have been spent climbing to his previous level rather than improving from it, yet he exceed the latter's growth regardless.

Of course, this was not solely achieved by way of experimenting with the Force, but the populace of his throne world Byss were also a resource from which he could draw life energy to precipitate his recovery. He is explained doing just that in the aforementioned issue of The Official Star Wars Fact File, but the Dark Empire Sourcebook clarifies that after several years, once he had healed enough, he began to concentrate more on his dark side studies, indicating that they played a role in his ascent to greater power regardless of the energy siphoned off the colonists at Byss, and The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded quoted above corroborates this.

Ultimately, if the Emperor magnified to such a major degree in only a few short years, then logically he would have become much stronger in a matter of decades. What he did after Return of the Jedi wasn't anything new or out of the ordinary; he had been leeching off of the people of Byss ever since Evasive Action: Recruitment, which takes place only a few short months after Revenge of the Sith, and numerous sources have regurgitates the fact that the Emperor gathered and studied the Force with intense devotion. Dark Empire Sourcebook goes as far as to claim that he "studied the Force in all its guises" and "gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds." It is no different from what he did after his death at Endor, and simple logic dictates that the longer one spends time growing in power, the more powerful they become. The power gap between the Palpatine's Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi iterations is thus far greater than the gap between his Return of the Jedi and Dark Empire iterations, and on its own terms, extremely vast, if not outright enormous.

Except he didn't. It's a Force Grip at best. That's not ragdolling someone.

A successful Force grip on an opposing Force wielder would necessitate that their active Force barriers be pierced. You might point to examples of Force users being caught off-guard, but The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide specifies Starkiller's attack on Vader failed because the latter was too powerful. Vader's success is credited to his power, and not Starkiller's ineptitude.

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

That statement is very simple and its message straight-forward. There is no need to play lexical semantics games here; a ragdoll is a children's toy, and Vader manhandled Starkiller on the merits of him being too powerful for the latter. Conjuring baseless speculations about Starkiller forgetting to put up his Force defences would be equally redundant.

Not to mention we've seen Starkiller break free multiple times from Vader's attempts.

Citation needed, please. In the Wii version, Vader strangles Starkiller in a telekinetic grip for a duration of over twenty seconds, rather conclusively proving the latter is in the Dark Lord's ragdoll range.

Loading Video...

(12:00)

Completely dominating such an overwhelmingly powerful Force wielder as Starkiller is orders of magnitude higher than anything Darth Malgus or Darth Bane have ever done. Holding a leaving freighter in place or collapsing the walls of the Rakatan Temple of the Ancients pale in comparison to wrenching a 1600-meter-long Star Destroyer down from the sky, splitting a similar Imperial Star Destroyer in half with a lightning blast and atomizing half of a 300-meter-long frigate while shielding himself from temperatures comparable to the outer layers of a star - all feats Galen Marek and his clone have achieved. Vader then ragdolling a person capable of these things would put him considerably out of the two Sith Lords' league, even collectively, on top of becoming "far more formidable" after the events of The Force Unleashed duology.

I would also like to clarify that Starkiller did not break free from Vader's grip here. Vader intentionally tossed him, and Starkiller simply took advantage of the provided momentum and pivoted himself mid-air, landing on his feet on the side of the structure and launching himself behind Vader with a flip to catch the Dark Lord off-guard. It in no way invalidates Vader's domination of him.

Except Galen had just disintegrated a half of a 300-meter frigate while simultaneously maintaining a Force Barrier that can withstand heat akin to that found in the outer layers of a star, fought through armies of Saber guards, Sith acolytes, and dozens of proxy droids and Starkiller clones prior to fighting Vader and was described as having "never been so exhausted at every level of his being"

This is a valid point, but I feel one that overlooks a crucial detail: Starkiller acquiring a rage amp right before finding himself at the receiving end of Vader's telekinesis, as you can blatantly see from the video game, with him screaming off the top of his lungs as Vader tosses Juno out of the window, presumably killing her from Starkiller's point of view. The novelization further notes how he was "howling with rage."

This would thus erase any prior feelings of exhaustion he might have had. Force rage is stated to be "One of the most powerful techniques taught to the Dark Jedi and Sith" in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. It is this technique that makes the dark side so alluring to so many untrained - and even trained in some cases - Force users. The power granted by tapping into your rage makes you exponentially more powerful. An exemplary instance would be Maul's fight with Sidious on Hypori, right before the former is proclaimed a Sith Lord:

It was while he was trying to eat a tough-skinned lizard at the base of a cliff that two droids attacked. Maul defeated both droids but sustained a blaster wound to his thigh. Limping into a ravine, he found a large cave and hauled his body into it. Maul knew he had to recover before he could fight again. But without his survival pack, he had no healing bacta or bandages. The wound festered. The pain was blinding. He listened for approaching droids but heard none. The days blurred, but Maul was almost certain that a full month had passed since he had arrived on Hypori. As he fell into and out of restless sleep, Maul began to wonder if his Master had forgotten him.

His wound became worse. The pain was beyond excruciating. He had no doubt that death would come soon. He thought he was hallucinating when he saw a cloaked figure appear at the mouth of the cave.

It was Sidious.

Maul could not believe his eyes. He felt not only relieved to see his Master, but genuinely glad. His Master would help him.

Sidious moved into the cave. He came to a stop near Maul. Smiling as he looked down at his apprentice, he said, "Now it is time for your final battle."

Maul wondered if he had heard correctly. He knew his Master must have been able to see plainly that he was not fit to stand. And yet he also knew his Master never tolerated weakness of any kind. Maul scrabbled at the cave's walls and pulled himself up. His balance was off. Searing pain shot through his leg as he lurched forward. Sidious handed Maul a lightsaber. Maul fumbled with the weapon and activated it. The cave's walls shimmered with light.

Maul did not realize how parched his throat was until he rasped, "Where is the assassin droid, Master?"

Stepping back from Maul, Sidious drew his own lightsaber and ignited its red blade. "I will be your opponent."

Maul stared at his Master with disbelief. And then his disbelief changed to anger. He summoned up the dark side of the Force. He felt a burning sensation flicker and grow within him, a trickle of strength. He took a step toward his Master.

Sidious sneered. "You cannot be as pathetic as you look." He raised his lightsaber and attacked.

Maul parried the blow and reversed, coming at Sidious from the opposite side. But Sidious had already vanished, leaving Maul to lunge at the empty air. As Maul lost his balance, his body fell against the cave's wall.

Sidious said from behind Maul, "You are that pathetic. You are weak. Not worthy of being a Sith Lord. I have misjudged you."

Maul's anger turned to rage. He spun fast and swung his lightsaber again, but again he failed to strike Sidious, who moved faster than he could follow. He fell against the opposite wall and gasped for breath.

Sidious howled with laughter. "I expected your failure. I saw your weaknesses long ago. Your doubts in your own abilities. Your lack of faith in my teaching. Your inability to embrace the dark side. And that is why, over these long years, I have secretly trained another apprentice."

Maul stared hard at Sidious.

"Oh, poor Maul. All he ever wanted was a friend. Does it please you to know I have another apprentice? Does it make you fell less alone?"

Still trying to catch his breath, Maul said, "More than one apprentice...is against the rules of the Sith."

"You are right," Sidious said with a grin. "A spark of intelligence, at last." He gestured to the mouth of the cave. "My second apprentice is on the other side of the planet. He conquered all the assassin droids sent after him. He only sustained a flesh wound. He is healthy. He is strong. Unlike the pathetic weakling I see before me."

Maul realized his opponent had not really been the assassin droids. He thought of all the punishment he had endured over the past month, and then of the unending punishments of his entire life. He thought of his true opponent, the unseen adversary, chosen by Sidious to become a Sith Lord. Maul felt robbed of his past and future. And then a rage unlike anything he had ever felt before swelled through him. The rage was so overwhelming that he thought it might consume him.

No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master. Glaring at Sidious, Maul saw the true face of his enemy.

Sidious snickered. "Can you understand? Focus. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die, Maul?"

Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next move, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck, he thought, I'm going to kill him.

Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, "You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"

"Yes," Maul grunted.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" Maul screamed through clenched teeth.

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand. As Maul heard his lightsaber deactivete and clatter across the cave's floor, Sidious raised his own lightsaber and advanced. Maul knew he was about to die, but he did not cringe. As Sidious swung his lightsaber, Maul leaped forward, grabbing Sidious's wrist, and sank his teeth into his hand. Maul tasted blood and spat it back at Sidious.

Sidious brought his lightsaber down on Maul. Maul waited for the pain and the shock of death. He was surprised when the lightsaber's blade bounced off his shoulder.

Sidious cackled merrily. He stood and looked at Maul. Then he tossed the lightsaber aside. Maul realized his Master had been using a harmless training lightsaber.

Maul leaned back against the cave wall. The rock bit into his back but he concentrated on the pain while his Master continued to laugh without mercy. When Sidious was done, he faced Maul and said, "Do you feel the hate?"

Maul nodded.

"Good. It is the source of your strength. You will hate me. No matter. Today you have delivered yourself into my hands. I have the power of life or death over you, Maul. Someday you will hold that power over another. It is the honor of the Sith. You will devote yourself to the idea of domination."

"But...what about the other apprentice?"

"There is no other apprentice."

Maul was astonished. He didn't know what to say.

"You have passed the test."

Maul could still taste his Master's blood on his lips, but his rage was rapidly ebbing. He shifted his feet and realized he was standing on his lost lightsaber. He picked it up and shoved it into his belt.

"From this day forward," Sidious said, "you are a Sith Lord. You have chosen a path of darkness, the path of power. You are Lord Maul. You are my instrument."

"Yes, Master."

Sidious smiled proudly. "Your rage. You enjoyed it? You enjoyed wanting to kill me?"

"I took pleasure in it."

Sidious laughed again, but it was not a mocking laughter. "You will do well, Lord Maul."

Maul realized he no longer felt any anger toward Sidious. He felt only...loyalty.

The Wrath of Darth Maul

Maul had been stranded on Hypori for an entire month, fighting assassin droids without respite. He was in a far worse condition at the start of this duel than Starkiller was, sporting a blaster wound in his thigh, and according to Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul, he was "too weak to forage for food," couldn't "even walk" and in his delirium was on the precipice of hallucinating. However, upon hearing from Sidious that his life is forfeit and all his struggles have been for nothing, he feels a rage unlike anything he has ever felt before and not only manages to fight Sidious, he pressures him. The Dark Side Sourcebook that Maul "nearly bested his master" and that Sidious "barely deflected" all of Maul's attacks. Clearly, a potent enough rage amplification can elevate a Force user's abilities to obscene levels and eradicate any feelings of exhaustion one might have. Starkiller definitely had a boost born of a similar existential threat: the love of his life, potentially murdered in front of his eyes; the man responsible, the same one who had killed his father and tormented him for all his life; his very reason for living, jeopardized. To me, it would be very disingenuous to use the excuse that Starkiller was exhausted here, as clearly all that would have been washed away and replaced with renewed strength. Vader nonetheless managed to penetrate his Force wall and ragdoll him. The feat is perfectly valid.

And with that, my lecture comes to an end. As a Sheevite, it is okay to argue for characters from different eras, as that gives off a more neutral vibe and reduces the chances of the bias card being used against you. But you must always remember where your true loyalties lie, my apprentice. It would be unwise and treasonous to sacrifice Sheevite ideals to wank other characters; your end goal should always be to further Sheev's gain, and your actions in this thread have gone contrary to that purpose. Vader is very much a pivotal character to scale Sheev off of, so you should not actively seek to undermine him. If you genuinely believe a character is more powerful, make sure you are aware of the true breadth of Vader's power beforehand and fully acknowledge and respect his might. I trust that this lecture has been informative and convincing, and that you will continue to broaden your knowledge base and hone your skills. Under my guidance, perhaps you may one day join the ranks of the greatest of the Sheevites, but for now, you have much to learn, my apprentice.

Avatar image for richard96
#72 Posted by Richard96 (5728 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages:

“Ehhh...I don't see Vader, with choking Dooku or ragdolling Maul and Oppress with a mere fraction of his power.”

Sidius choked a non resisting and scared Dooku. However, the 20 per cent of ROTS Sidius is a considerable gap.

“Except it's stated to be the same temple.”

Quote?

“He threw thew him like a ragdoll, not an actual "ragdoll" (like what Sidious did to Maul). Not to mention we've seen Starkiller break free multiple times from Vader's attempts.”

Vader was clearly stated to be too powerful. And he was only trying to submit Galen.

“Except Galen had just disintegrated a half of a 300-meter frigate while simultaneously maintaining a Force Barrier that can withstand heat akin to that found in the outer layers of a star, fought through armies of Saber guards, Sith acolytes, and dozens of proxy droids and Starkiller clones prior to fighting Vader and was described as having "never been so exhausted at every level of his being"

Ok, good for Galen. Still got spared by Vader twice.

“When did I claim he ragdolled them? Lol. He duels one of them while at the same time choking all the three of them simultaneously multiple times throughout the fight. And they only ever defeat him by forcing him down the reactor shaft.”

You claimed he force dominated them. Force dominating them is ragdolling.

“So? Vader is > Dooku but not to a significant degree.”

Yes, just to say that Dooku’s TK feats are valid even for Vader.

“Except it was stated that Dooku had to gather power to do so.”

Quote? Dooku ragdolled him point blank, while even kicking Anakin.

“These aren't hundreds, lmfao”

Maybe not hundreds, but at least one hundred.

“Except I never said that Vader isn't better than Malgus only that they're comparable.”

Ehh, maybe malgus can put up a brief fight, not more. All his best feats, which are still vader’s inferiors, has been realized with strain. He cannot resist much against a vader/Dooku opponent.

“Except I never said that the cut collapsed it, but merely made it easier for Vader to collapse the tree with TK.”

But still very impressive.

Avatar image for stelios23
#73 Posted by STELIOS23 (378 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends bane with his orbalisk armor is damn near unbeatable in a duel but without it, i'll have to give it to malgus and ss.

Avatar image for dawn_of_ages
#74 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger said:

I see you have stepped into the open, freely displaying your debating prowess at large. Your skills are considerable, but your views are misguided. Let me guide you on the right path, my apprentice.

broaden your knowledge base and hone your skills. Under my guidance, perhaps you may one day join the ranks of the greatest of the Sheevites, but for now, you have much to learn, my apprentice.

Loading Video...

(Apologies for the late reply. Been really busy late and only just got back on CV a few days ago.)

@azronger said:

I see you have stepped into the open, freely displaying your debating prowess at large. Your skills are considerable, but your views are misguided. Let me guide you on the right path, my apprentice.

Based on what? The only case you can make is that Sidious became more knowledgeable. Sidious only gained a power boost post-RotJ.

Force knowledge has historically correlated with power. One's understanding of the Force develops as one studies its mysteries, and their increased understanding further evolves their overall power and command of the Force. Examples of this can be seen with the Sith of the Banite line, whose "powers increased with each generation" "as they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force" according to Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook. Likewise, Grand Master Yoda was noted to be "just as powerful as Darth Sidious" by virtue of his knowledge of the Force in Mysteries of the Jedi. Palpatine's own expansion in power after the events of Return of the Jedi that you refer to came about with his continued research of the dark side as detailed in The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded.

Resurrected in a youthful clone body, Palpatine does not reveal himself immediately. Studying the dark side of the Force to become more powerful, his education results in three manifestos: The Book of Anger, The Weakness of Inferiors, and The Creation of Monsters.

The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded

Indeed, he studies the dark side to become more powerful, resulting in his Force skills becoming "significantly" more developed as per the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and the same source earlier states that "Palpatine was so powerful in this new incarnation that Luke felt the only way to defeat the Dark Side was to know its ways and find its weaknesses." This shows a nice contrast between the Emperor's respective power levels in Return of the Jedi and Dark Empire. In the former, Luke expresses thoughts about murdering the Emperor and saving the galaxy by doing do. In his anger he indeed does attempt to strike Palpatine down but is stopped by Vader before he can accomplish the deed. All such thoughts are absent in their second confrontation, and the conclusion Luke arrives at is that Palpatine is simply "so powerful" that the "only way" to defeat him is to feign loyalty and sabotage his plans from the inside.

Luke himself had grown "immensely more powerful" in the six years following Return of the Jedi according to The Official Star Wars Fact File issue 120, so it can be inferred that Palpatine would have received a similar if not an even more profound increment in power in that time, since Luke feels in battle he stands no chance against the dark tyrant despite his own more than substantial gains in Force strength. To put it simply, Luke judges the gap between himself and the Emperor to be greater in Dark Empire than it was in Return of the Jedi, indicating that the latter superseded the growth rate of a member of the Skywalker family, a lineage reputed for their extraordinary aptitude for learning and mastering the Force remarkably swiftly. Additionally, according to the same issue of The Official Star Wars Fact File, in the aftermath of his death at Endor, the Emperor took "years to regain his power," meaning he would have had less time than Luke to developed by a timeframe of multiple years as several of them would have been spent climbing to his previous level rather than improving from it, yet he exceed the latter's growth regardless.

Of course, this was not solely achieved by way of experimenting with the Force, but the populace of his throne world Byss were also a resource from which he could draw life energy to precipitate his recovery. He is explained doing just that in the aforementioned issue of The Official Star Wars Fact File, but the Dark Empire Sourcebook clarifies that after several years, once he had healed enough, he began to concentrate more on his dark side studies, indicating that they played a role in his ascent to greater power regardless of the energy siphoned off the colonists at Byss, and The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded quoted above corroborates this.

Ultimately, if the Emperor magnified to such a major degree in only a few short years, then logically he would have become much stronger in a matter of decades. What he did after Return of the Jedi wasn't anything new or out of the ordinary; he had been leeching off of the people of Byss ever since Evasive Action: Recruitment, which takes place only a few short months after Revenge of the Sith, and numerous sources have regurgitates the fact that the Emperor gathered and studied the Force with intense devotion. Dark Empire Sourcebook goes as far as to claim that he "studied the Force in all its guises" and "gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds." It is no different from what he did after his death at Endor, and simple logic dictates that the longer one spends time growing in power, the more powerful they become. The power gap between the Palpatine's Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi iterations is thus far greater than the gap between his Return of the Jedi and Dark Empire iterations, and on its own terms, extremely vast, if not outright enormous.

Fair enough. I agree with this. I was always under the impression that none of those powers manifested until DE.

A successful Force grip on an opposing Force wielder would necessitate that their active Force barriers be pierced. You might point to examples of Force users being caught off-guard, but The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide specifies Starkiller's attack on Vader failed because the latter was too powerful. Vader's success is credited to his power, and not Starkiller's ineptitude.

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

That statement is very simple and its message straight-forward. There is no need to play lexical semantics games here; a ragdoll is a children's toy, and Vader manhandled Starkiller on the merits of him being too powerful for the latter. Conjuring baseless speculations about Starkiller forgetting to put up his Force defences would be equally redundant.

Not to mention we've seen Starkiller break free multiple times from Vader's attempts.

Citation needed, please. In the Wii version, Vader strangles Starkiller in a telekinetic grip for a duration of over twenty seconds, rather conclusively proving the latter is in the Dark Lord's ragdoll range.

Loading Video...

(12:00)

Completely dominating such an overwhelmingly powerful Force wielder as Starkiller is orders of magnitude higher than anything Darth Malgus or Darth Bane have ever done. Holding a leaving freighter in place or collapsing the walls of the Rakatan Temple of the Ancients pale in comparison to wrenching a 1600-meter-long Star Destroyer down from the sky, splitting a similar Imperial Star Destroyer in half with a lightning blast and atomizing half of a 300-meter-long frigate while shielding himself from temperatures comparable to the outer layers of a star - all feats Galen Marek and his clone have achieved. Vader then ragdolling a person capable of these things would put him considerably out of the two Sith Lords' league, even collectively, on top of becoming "far more formidable" after the events of The Force Unleashed duology.

I would also like to clarify that Starkiller did not break free from Vader's grip here. Vader intentionally tossed him, and Starkiller simply took advantage of the provided momentum and pivoted himself mid-air, landing on his feet on the side of the structure and launching himself behind Vader with a flip to catch the Dark Lord off-guard. It in no way invalidates Vader's domination of him.

continue to broaden your knowledge base and hone your skills. Under my guidance, perhaps you may one day join the ranks of the greatest of the Sheevites, but for now, you have much to learn, my apprentice.

Vader and Marek fought evenly Vader was described "doing everything in his power" to stop Marek in the novel though, IIRC. I'll try to search for the quote. Fair enough for the Rage amp though, I concede the rest of the argument without any objection.

It would be unwise and treasonous to sacrifice Sheevite ideals to wank other characters; your end goal should always be to further Sheev's gain, and your actions in this thread have gone contrary to that purpose. Vader is very much a pivotal character to scale Sheev off of, so you should not actively seek to undermine him. If you genuinely believe a character is more powerful, make sure you are aware of the true breadth of Vader's power beforehand and fully acknowledge and respect his might. I trust that this lecture has been informative and convincing, and that you will continue to broaden your knowledge base and hone your skills. Under my guidance, perhaps you may one day join the ranks of the greatest of the Sheevites, but for now, you have much to learn, my apprentice.

Apologies, m'lord. It seems that my blind admiration for Malgus has clouded my judgment and hindered my ability to see Vader's might for what it truly is. I hope this does not put my loyalty in question.

Avatar image for azronger
#75 Edited by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages:

Fair enough. I agree with this. I was always under the impression that none of those powers manifested until DE.

The Emperor has been familiar with many of the powers he displays in Dark Empire for decades prior to the actual story. Chronologically, the first mention of Force Storms by His Imperial Majesty was in Book of the Sith, which he compiled in 18 BBY according to Daniel Wallace, the out-of-universe author of the book. That's only a year after Revenge of the Sith and a whopping 28 years before Dark Empire.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Force Storms are actually a good way to gauge the Emperor's growth from Revenge of the Sith to Dark Empire. By the timeframe of the former, the apex of his accomplishments with the ability amounted to annihilating "thousands of enemies," and "swallowing armies." During the latter, its capacity to devour things has increased from "armies" to "fleets" according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and the same source credits Sidious with the power to "tear surfaces off worlds." Mon Mothma and Luke Skywalker would likewise testify to the Emperor's global capabilities with the power, with the former noting how Palpatine's Force Storm was "taking over the planet" they were on in the Dark Empire Audio Drama, and the latter commenting in his notes in The Jedi Path that Force Storms have "the power to kill worlds" upon witnessing Palpatine's display over Da Soocha V. So in essence, Sidious went from small army-busting to continent/planet-busting over the course of his quest for greater power - an absolutely colossal growth.

Another ability he showed an affinity for early on was Drain Life, which he showcased for the first time in Darth Plagueis, although his most famous feat is his draining of the populace of Byss, which is another one of his famous feats from Dark Empire that got written as a much earlier showing for him by Evasive Action: Recruitment.

No Caption Provided

The Byss feat is another way to get an impression of the scope of the Emperor's power increase. Although not as solid as the Force Storm example, given that the low effort Sidious accomplished this with doesn't really tell us anything of his upper limits, it is still eye-opening to an extent.

Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

In short, Palpatine goes from the millions to the billions, which is over a thousandfold increase in the number of people he's directly siphoning life energy off of. As I said, not as concrete as the Force Storm comparison as his limit is never revealed, but still worth mentioning in my opinion.

Vader and Marek fought evenly Vader was described "doing everything in his power" to stop Marek in the novel though, IIRC. I'll try to search for the quote. Fair enough for the Rage amp though, I concede the rest of the argument without any objection.

I assume you mean this:

They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.

The Force Unleashed II

The doesn't necessarily contradict the games. We see from them that Vader is fully capable of manhandling the clone with telekinesis, so that is definitely "in his power." Nothing in the passage suggests the fight or Vader doing "everything in his power" to stop Starkiller was restricted to a lightsaber duel; the last three sentences are merely in reference to Starkiller's "efforts to get to Juno," not any sort of implications that they were fighting as equals.

Apologies, m'lord. It seems that my blind admiration for Malgus has clouded my judgment and hindered my ability to see Vader's might for what it truly is. I hope this does not put my loyalty in question.

As the great Grand Admiral Thrawn once said, "Anyone can make an error. It only becomes a mistake when you refuse to correct it." Let this incident remain an error, and all shall be well.

Oh, and there is nothing wrong with admiring Malgus. Even His Imperial Majesty respected him, and thought of him as a worthy specimen to inspire Vader. Malgus is in many ways the progenitor of the Sith badass archetype, and Vader the completed product.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3