Dark Empire Luke Vs. Yoda

  • 71 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for shroudofsorrow
shroudofsorrow

13714

Forum Posts

4048

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 70

When Yoda goes to Palpatine's office to confront him, he finds Dark Empire Luke waiting for him instead. What happens next?

No Caption Provided

Vs.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for darthadi
DarthAdi

2368

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Luke beats him.

Avatar image for killmonger101
Killmonger101

2768

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Luke should handle this without issue

Avatar image for ils
ILS

280

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4  Edited By ILS

Mid DE Luke is Sheev's greatest adversary in a duel context, then he gets stronger twice after that. He also has accolades foreshadowing him becoming the most powerful Jedi, including Yoda, once he awakens to their greatest lessons, which he achieves at the end of DE #6. He also just outduels a far more powerful Palpatine than the one the Yoda stalemated, and makes him resort to invoking his full potency, which is the Force Storm; the fact he resorted to that power suggests Sheev doesn't think a simple lightning storm like the one he unleashed on Yoda would be sufficient. You also have the fact RotJ Luke was already growing powerful quickly enough to pose to pose a threat to RotJ Palpatine in a time urgent sense, and by DE Luke feels like he would have been powerful enough to defeat RotJ Palpatine.

Luke's basically got the full house on Yoda here; feats, statements, scaling, inferences.

Avatar image for shroudofsorrow
shroudofsorrow

13714

Forum Posts

4048

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 70

@ils: When did DE Luke outduel Palpatine? I thought he lost the one lightsaber duel they had?

Avatar image for ils
ILS

280

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@shroudofsorrow: He cuts his arm off in a duel in DE #6. They have two duels. Luke loses the first in DE #5.

Avatar image for shroudofsorrow
shroudofsorrow

13714

Forum Posts

4048

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 70

#9  Edited By shroudofsorrow

@ils: The greatest adversary quote was established during Dark Empire, before the prequels were established, so should it count?

Accolades aren't necessarily invalid just because they're old. A lot of the accolades putting OT Vader above Mustafar Vader were from before the Prequel Trilogy came out, but I personally still think they have merit :)

Avatar image for callmebob
callmebob

349

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

De luke

Avatar image for azronger
Azronger

5293

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#13  Edited By Azronger
@ils said:

He also just outduels a far more powerful Palpatine than the one the Yoda stalemated, and makes him resort to invoking his full potency, which is the Force Storm; the fact he resorted to that power suggests Sheev doesn't think a simple lightning storm like the one he unleashed on Yoda would be sufficient.

Actually, the comic depicts the Emperor about to unleash a barrage of Force lightning on the Skywalker twins concurrent with the Force storm wreaking havoc on the Alliance fleet in the background. I'm of the opinion the Emperor didn't require the Force storm to defeat Luke; it was simply him throwing a tantrum after failing to fully convert Luke and deciding to be a dick about it the same way he was in Return of the Jedi - he didn't needto torture Luke to kill him there, nor did he need to annihilate all of Luke's friends and allies to do so in Dark Empire, but he chose to anyway because spite is in the essence of the character.

The core strength of this interpretation to me is the fact that the Force storm isn't even aimed at Luke, but the fleet in the distance; the Emperor is invoking and pouring "all his hatred" into an act distinct from that of slaying his nemesis, instead acquitting himself with the comparatively paltry resources of Force lightning and whatever other abilities he may have for the task. Luke then sheathes his blade and retreats to Leia's side to beseech her aid despite having just outfenced the Emperor, and in the final panel of the issue he concedes that a single Jedi cannot conquer the dark side alone. This is all information directly from the comic itself without relying on ancillary sources, but once they're taken into consideration the picture becomes even more clear: the endnotes for the issue comment on the Emperor's status as a living dark side nexus that would have literally torn Luke apart had he stepped close, and The Essential Guide to the Force reiterates Luke's realization that he could not defeat the Emperor by himself in that moment.

Star Wars: Dark Empire #6 - The Fate of A Galaxy
Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force
Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force

However, you are very much correct with regards to Luke vs. Yoda. At the end of the day, Luke was crowned the Emperor's "greatest adversary" in the context of a lightsaber duel from which he grew enormously in power to the point he outdueled the very opponent who stomped him then by virtue of being "too powerful" to defeat by way of the blade. From that he then attains borderline enlightenment and becomes joined to the luminosity of the Force in its totality. All in the span of two comic issues.

Yoda is thoroughly outclassed by his final and greatest student.

@ils said:

DE Luke feels like he would have been powerful enough to defeat RotJ Palpatine.

What instance are you referring to, here?

Avatar image for ils
ILS

280

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@azronger:

Actually, the comic depicts the Emperor about to unleash a barrage of Force lightning on the Skywalker twins concurrent with the Force storm wreaking havoc on the Alliance fleet in the background.

Which Palpatine states is his full potency.

I'm of the opinion the Emperor didn't require the Force storm to defeat Luke; it was simply him throwing a tantrum after failing to fully convert Luke and deciding to be a dick about it the same way he was inReturn of the Jedi- he didn'tneedto torture Luke to kill him there, nor did he need to annihilate all of Luke's friends and allies to do so inDark Empire, but he chose to anyway because spite is in the essence of the character.

Well, we have that quote which I forget the source of which states Sheev "resorted" to the Force Storm, but I don't think I need to appeal to that anyway. Palpatine lost the duel and then decided to invoke his "full potency." His full potency entails generating such hatred/anger and by extension power that he creates a Force Storm.

Now, while I don't think he needs to literally lob the Storm at Luke to defeat him - as you say he could also just shoot him with lightning as he indicated himself, and there's other quotes stating that nothing could match Palpatine's power at that moment apart from the Jedi oneness/WoL - I do think he needs to reach his "full potency" to defeat Luke even if it's just with normal Lightning.

Basically, what I'm saying is:

"Full power" Palpatine aka Force Storm generating Palpatine's Lightning > Normal Palpatine's Lightning

Rather than Palpatine's normal lightning being weaker than usual because he's controlling a storm at the same time, I'm suggesting that the amount of rage and power Palpatine is using to produce the Force Storm is also what is needed for him to produce his "full potency", and that should carry over to the Lightning as well, in other words, I don't think you get Palpatine's "full power" lightning without him also going into Force Storm levels of anger.

Or to put it another way, the amount of negative emotion and power Palpatine produces with the Storm is to the extent that even though using Lightning on Luke would be multi-tasking, the Lightning itself is still stronger than it would be if Palpatine was generating less power but focusing it just on the lightning.

I think my position is supported since it is stated that at that moment, Palpatine is using his full power, so that should be the strongest DE Palpatine we've ever seen, and if he was actually weaker then Luke should have just rushed him and finished him off - it can only make sense that it was Palpatine using his "full potency" that prevented Luke from doing this.

The core strength of this interpretation to me is the fact that the Force storm isn't even aimed at Luke, but the fleet in the distance; the Emperor is invoking and pouring"all his hatred"into an act distinct from that of slaying his nemesis, instead acquitting himself with the comparatively paltry resources of Force lightning and whatever other abilities he may have for the task.

Your interpretation isn't mutually exclusive from mine, in fact they're complimentary. We can say that this is the full potency of not only the Storm, but Palpatine in general (due to the unfathomable rage he's generating), which means his lesser abilities are also at their strongest here, and then also say that these lesser abilities, e.g Lightning, would be enough to defeat Luke.

Luke then sheathes his blade and retreats to Leia's side to beseech her aid despite having just outfenced the Emperor, and in the final panel of the issue he concedes that a single Jedi cannot conquer the dark side alone. This is all information directly from the comic itself without relying on ancillary sources, but once they're taken into consideration the picture becomes even more clear: the endnotes for the issue comment on the Emperor's status as a living dark side nexus that would have literally torn Luke apart had he stepped close, andThe Essential Guide to the Forcereiterates Luke's realization that he could not defeat the Emperor by himself in that moment.

I don't disagree with any of this. But here's my point:

1. DE Sheev is much stronger, pound for pound, than RotS

2. RotS was able to defeat Yoda with a lightning storm

3. DE should be able to produce an equivalent lightning storm with less than his "full potency" now that he's stronger

4. DE chose to use his "full potency" against Luke, and so even if that is just in the form of a lightning storm, it's still more power than was used against Yoda, as it's the "full power" of a much stronger Palpatine.

What instance are you referring to, here?

In Dark Empire #2, Luke chooses to confront what he suspects to be Palpatine even after he sees him unleash the unimaginable power needed to transport him through hyperspace. Once actually confronting Palpatine, he finds out that Palpatine has achieved immortality via cloning, and realises that just killing him physically isn't enough; he needs to discover and undermine the cloning process so that Palpatine can't return to life.

https://imgur.com/a/TPZZB9R

Essentially, despite witnessing RotJ Palpatine's power, and despite witnessing a power even greater than that via the Force Storm, and also hearing from Palpatine himself that he has grown stronger, he has no qualms about confronting him, and he has no concerns over his ability to strike Palpatine down. His indecision isn't a result of Palpatine manipulating him either, since it's stated in the comic Palpatine's arguments "don't touch" Luke. His indecision to kill Palpatine there stems solely from the fact it won't kill him permanently.

The comic also states that Luke alone knows how strong he has become, which means Luke knows his own strength. So Luke, knowing his own strength and having seen these displays of power from Palpatine in the past, still believes he can resist that power and kill him. Palpatine himself doesn't contradict him, so even if he has even greater power hidden in reserve, he seems to go along with the idea that Luke can kill someone who is RotJ Palpatine+. And as icing Byss seems to be the greatest home of the Dark Side Luke has ever felt, which wouldn't be doing much to help him here.

Not ironclad, perhaps, but at minimum you can use this to suggest DE Luke is no longer helpless against RotJ Palpatine, and that RotJ Palpatine would have to have been hiding an immense amount of power for him to remove Luke's confidence in being able to defeat him in DE #2. And I'm not sure it's the case that RotJ was hiding large amounts of his power, since he poured a great deal of it into Vader.

Avatar image for azronger
Azronger

5293

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#15  Edited By Azronger
@ils said:

Actually, the comic depicts the Emperor about to unleash a barrage of Force lightning on the Skywalker twins concurrent with the Force storm wreaking havoc on the Alliance fleet in the background.

Which Palpatine states is his full potency.

I'm of the opinion the Emperor didn't require the Force storm to defeat Luke; it was simply him throwing a tantrum after failing to fully convert Luke and deciding to be a dick about it the same way he was inReturn of the Jedi- he didn'tneedto torture Luke to kill him there, nor did he need to annihilate all of Luke's friends and allies to do so inDark Empire, but he chose to anyway because spite is in the essence of the character.

Well, we have that quote which I forget the source of which states Sheev "resorted" to the Force Storm, but I don't think I need to appeal to that anyway. Palpatine lost the duel and then decided to invoke his "full potency." His full potency entails generating such hatred/anger and by extension power that he creates a Force Storm.

Now, while I don't think he needs to literally lob the Storm at Luke to defeat him - as you say he could also just shoot him with lightning as he indicated himself, and there's other quotes stating that nothing could match Palpatine's power at that moment apart from the Jedi oneness/WoL - I do think he needs to reach his "full potency" to defeat Luke even if it's just with normal Lightning.

Basically, what I'm saying is:

"Full power" Palpatine aka Force Storm generating Palpatine's Lightning > Normal Palpatine's Lightning

Rather than Palpatine's normal lightning being weaker than usual because he's controlling a storm at the same time, I'm suggesting that the amount of rage and power Palpatine is using to produce the Force Storm is also what is needed for him to produce his "full potency", and that should carry over to the Lightning as well, in other words, I don't think you get Palpatine's "full power" lightning without him also going into Force Storm levels of anger.

Or to put it another way, the amount of negative emotion and power Palpatine produces with the Storm is to the extent that even though using Lightning on Luke would be multi-tasking, the Lightning itself is still stronger than it would be if Palpatine was generating less power but focusing it just on the lightning.

I think my position is supported since it is stated that at that moment, Palpatine is using his full power, so that should be the strongest DE Palpatine we've ever seen, and if he was actually weaker then Luke should have just rushed him and finished him off - it can only make sense that it was Palpatine using his "full potency" that prevented Luke from doing this.

The core strength of this interpretation to me is the fact that the Force storm isn't even aimed at Luke, but the fleet in the distance; the Emperor is invoking and pouring"all his hatred"into an act distinct from that of slaying his nemesis, instead acquitting himself with the comparatively paltry resources of Force lightning and whatever other abilities he may have for the task.

Your interpretation isn't mutually exclusive from mine, in fact they're complimentary. We can say that this is the full potency of not only the Storm, but Palpatine in general (due to the unfathomable rage he's generating), which means his lesser abilities are also at their strongest here, and then also say that these lesser abilities, e.g Lightning, would be enough to defeat Luke.

If I'm understanding the gist of your argument right, you do in fact agree with me that the Emperor could have slain Luke with lightning/other similar abilities alone, and that the Force storm was entirely superfluous to achieve that end, correct? In that case there isn't much to disagree with here, but I would proffer that the circumstances aren't much dissimilar to Palpatine's altercation with Mace Windu, in which he is likewise deprived of his lightsaber and resorts to Force lightning to defend himself. In the novel, Palpatine is filled with rage after Mace's accusation that he was undone by the common Sith flaw of being "defeated by his own fear," and the resulting Force lightning is described as "forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred." As Mace deflects the bolts back at Palpatine, the Chancellor only intensifies his barrage in response, and then ramps it up even further to the point Mace becomes resigned to defeat, the blade of his lightsaber is being bent backwards by the overload of energy, and Palpatine's eyes literally glow with power as it melts away his alchemical mask and irrevocably deforms his visage beyond even what it had been up to that point. He would have killed Mace right then and there if not for his goal of converting Anakin to his side.

Mace disengaged from the shadow’s blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish.

His instant’s distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow’s fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.

Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.

Out where the shadow’s fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow’s fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.

Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow’s lightsaber in half.

One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.

Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.

“For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord,” Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, “is under arrest.”

“Do you see, Anakin? Do you?” Palpatine’s voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man’s. “Didn’t I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?”

“Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It’s over. You’ve lost.” Mace leveled his blade. “You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear.”

Palpatine lifted his head.

His eyes smoked with hate.

“Fool,” he said.

He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor’s wings, his hands hooking into talons.

“Fool!” His voice was a shout of thunder. “Do you think the fear you feel is mine?”

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine’s hands, and Mace didn’t have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.

Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that poured from his hands only intensified.

He fed the power with his pain.

“Anakin!” Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. “Anakin, help me! This is your chance!”

He felt Anakin’s leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—

And Palpatine was not afraid.

Mace could feel it: he wasn’t worried at all.

“Destroy this traitor,” the Chancellor said, his voice raised over the howl of writhing energy that joined his hands to Mace’s blade. “This was never an arrest. It’s an assassination!”

That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine’s shatterpoint. The absolute shatterpoint of the Sith.

The shatterpoint of the dark side itself.

Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker …

Now Anakin was at Mace’s shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace’s blade back toward the Korun Master’s face.

Palpatine’s eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. “He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him.”

“You’re the chosen one, Anakin,” Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. “Take him. It’s your destiny.”

Skywalker echoed him faintly. “Destiny …”

“Help me! I can’t hold on any longer!” The yellow glare from Palpatine’s eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. “He is killing me, Anakin—! Please, Anaaahhh—”

Mace’s blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. “Anakin, he’s too strong for me—”

“Ahhh—” Palpatine’s roar above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair.

The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge.

“I … can’t. I give up. I … I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don’t kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender.”

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization

In Dark Empire, I do not believe the Emperor needs to conjure a Force storm as a prerequisite to summoning lightning capable of overwhelming Luke; rather, he simply needs to be in the proper mindset to do so: to feel indescribable fury at every level of his being to invoke his dark powers at their apex. We effectively see this "full potency" above in Revenge of the Sith as well without the component of the Force storm. However, one should keep in mind that his lightning by itself in Dark Empire - even when wielded with this maximal anger - is vastly, vastly beneath the power of the Force storm, as the amount of energy the Emperor can channel through his body is limited. The true full potency of the Emperor, the entirety of his Force reserves (Force storm + lightning + everything else), is greater than DE Luke's many times over.

@ils said:

Luke then sheathes his blade and retreats to Leia's side to beseech her aid despite having just outfenced the Emperor, and in the final panel of the issue he concedes that a single Jedi cannot conquer the dark side alone. This is all information directly from the comic itself without relying on ancillary sources, but once they're taken into consideration the picture becomes even more clear: the endnotes for the issue comment on the Emperor's status as a living dark side nexus that would have literally torn Luke apart had he stepped close, andThe Essential Guide to the Forcereiterates Luke's realization that he could not defeat the Emperor by himself in that moment.

I don't disagree with any of this. But here's my point:

1. DE Sheev is much stronger, pound for pound, than RotS

2. RotS was able to defeat Yoda with a lightning storm

3. DE should be able to produce an equivalent lightning storm with less than his "full potency" now that he's stronger

4. DE chose to use his "full potency" against Luke, and so even if that is just in the form of a lightning storm, it's still more power than was used against Yoda, as it's the "full power" of a much stronger Palpatine.

I initially thought you suggested the Emperor would have been unable to subdue Luke with lightning, period, but I see your point clearer now. And yes, I can agree to the premise that a casual display from DE Palpatine would surmount his ROTS version's best attempt, not just because he is far more powerful, but because he boasts a far superior vessel. His clones have been genetically augmented to be stronger, faster, more intelligent, and just about better in every attribute imaginable. Although they are more frail than his original in containing his power, the amount of power they can channel at once is substantially improved.

Star Wars: Dark Empire Sourcebook
Star Wars: Dark Empire Sourcebook
The Star Wars Encyclopedia
The Star Wars Encyclopedia
Star Wars Handbook #3: Dark Empire
@ils said:

What instance are you referring to, here?

In Dark Empire #2, Luke chooses to confront what he suspects to be Palpatine even after he sees him unleash the unimaginable power needed to transport him through hyperspace. Once actually confronting Palpatine, he finds out that Palpatine has achieved immortality via cloning, and realises that just killing him physically isn't enough; he needs to discover and undermine the cloning process so that Palpatine can't return to life.

https://imgur.com/a/TPZZB9R

Essentially, despite witnessing RotJ Palpatine's power, and despite witnessing a power even greater than that via the Force Storm, and also hearing from Palpatine himself that he has grown stronger, he has no qualms about confronting him, and he has no concerns over his ability to strike Palpatine down. His indecision isn't a result of Palpatine manipulating him either, since it's stated in the comic Palpatine's arguments "don't touch" Luke. His indecision to kill Palpatine there stems solely from the fact it won't kill him permanently.

The comic also states that Luke alone knows how strong he has become, which means Luke knows his own strength. So Luke, knowing his own strength and having seen these displays of power from Palpatine in the past, still believes he can resist that power and kill him. Palpatine himself doesn't contradict him, so even if he has even greater power hidden in reserve, he seems to go along with the idea that Luke can kill someone who is RotJ Palpatine+. And as icing Byss seems to be the greatest home of the Dark Side Luke has ever felt, which wouldn't be doing much to help him here.

Not ironclad, perhaps, but at minimum you can use this to suggest DE Luke is no longer helpless against RotJ Palpatine, and that RotJ Palpatine would have to have been hiding an immense amount of power for him to remove Luke's confidence in being able to defeat him in DE #2. And I'm not sure it's the case that RotJ was hiding large amounts of his power, since he poured a great deal of it into Vader.

The Emperor never revealed anything close to his full power in Return of the Jedi. Whilst some quotes attest to the contrary, I don't think the full body of evidence supports that. I'm sure you're aware of the quotes saying that the Emperor's mastery of the dark side gave him very literal control of the Imperial military across the galaxy; the Return of the Jedi novelization and many subsequent sources also confirm he was consciously directing the battle outside the throne room to the point of outright mind control - not quite to the same degree as what Vitiate did on Ziost, but significantly more dominating than ordinary battle meditation. Luke, to my knowledge, is not aware of this fact by the start of Dark Empire; not only was the Emperor maintaining a feat exorbitantly in excess of anything Luke personally witnessed or sensed, but the splitting of his attention and power would have prevented him from using anywhere close to all of it on Luke or Vader. We also have simple comparisons like the Emperor's lightning not killing a defenseless and moribund Luke versus the Emperor's gross inferiors such as Darth Bane casually disintegrating his enemies, and Palpatine himself turning a Sithspawn creature to ash in Sithisis.

Secondly, the Emperor is notoriously difficult to read through the Force. The entire Jedi Order, including Yoda, Mace Windu, and Anakin Skywalker, went for years without knowing he was even Force-sensitive, all the while he was casting a galactic dark side shroud on the Force and dampening the Jedi's connection to it; Tenebrous, Maul, and Tyranus have all characterized Sidious's Force presence as a shadow or a black hole that is utterly inscrutable; and he has obscured Plagueis (albeit allegedly) and Vader's senses without them even realizing it. I don't think it's a stretch to say Luke would not be privy to the Emperor's full strength based on his experiences on Endor, and I don't think he sensed it on Byss either - the Emperor's metamorphosis into a living dark side nexus is treated as a revelation in the endnotes of the final issue even though ancillary material states he was already such during Luke's first encounter with him on Byss.

Your point about Luke witnessing the Force storm on Coruscant has another problem: the opening crawl of the second issue blatantly states the storm would spell "certain destruction" for Luke - it only doesn't because the Emperor personally shields him and R2, and funnels them into a tiny cell on an Imperial dungeon ship while all the other debris and detritus sucked in by the storm is obliterated. Moreover, the Dark Empire handbook plainly states Luke was incapable of matching the Emperor's power "in a direct confrontation" and clarifies that "faced with the Emperor's limitless power and immortality, Luke succumbed to the dark side." The Dark Empire Sourcebook further comments that "Palpatine's power seemed overwhelming" and that he was "so powerful in this new incarnation that Luke felt that the only way to defeat the Dark Side was to know its ways and find its weaknesses." While you're right that the Emperor's immortality was a factor in Luke's decision, you're wrong in that it was the sole factor - the Emperor's conventional Force strength, pound for pound, was greater than Luke's own to the point it "seemed overwhelming" and was, by comparison, "limitless."

Star Wars: Dark Empire #2
Star Wars: Dark Empire #2
Star Wars: Dark Empire Sourcebook
Star Wars: Dark Empire Sourcebook
Star Wars Handbook #3: Dark Empire

You can still appeal to the context of the encounter taking place on Byss, but your argument is specifically contingent on Luke's perception of his own strength compared to that of an iteration of the Emperor you believe to be relative or superior to his ROTJ self. Now that I've established Luke considers himself the Emperor vast inferior, that argument falls apart as we do not know how much of his power he was revealing to Luke compared to full power in Return of the Jedi (which he also didn't show to Luke), or how the dark side energies of the planet affected Luke's judgment of himself or the Emperor. In essence, mine doesn't necessarily have to be an affirmative case for ROTJ Sheev > BoDE Luke (although I still believe so and can argue for it), but rather merely a refutation of BoDE Luke > BoDE Sheev. I'd say the four quotes above are by themselves enough, but if you want proof for any of my other claims, I can provide them as well. I also have at least two other supporting arguments, but I'll hold those in reserve for now unless you or someone else requests to hear them.

Avatar image for redsithdisciple
RedSithDisciple

2024

Forum Posts

456

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Luke

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40401

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#17 frozen  Moderator

@ils: Great breakdown.

Avatar image for deactivated-644c7202b7524
deactivated-644c7202b7524

2078

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

DE Luke due to scaling

Avatar image for pedrolopesmateus
PedroLopesMateus

1592

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Luke stomps.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40796

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#20 Eredin12  Online
Avatar image for supreme101
Supreme101

8798

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

Luke with little effort

Avatar image for redsithdisciple
RedSithDisciple

2024

Forum Posts

456

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

1280

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for masterbuster666
MasterBuster666

7298

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

12821

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Luke dies

Avatar image for maulsmacker
MaulSmacker

7840

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Luke, might take some effort but no actual difficulty.

Avatar image for anderioan
anderioan

326

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Luke with effort.

Avatar image for deactivated-661447c2a6ff0
deactivated-661447c2a6ff0

117

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for cryolancer47
CryoLancer47

7951

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Luke comfortably.

Avatar image for supreme101
Supreme101

8798

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

#30  Edited By Supreme101

Only grey sentinel will claim Yoda can beat Luke

Avatar image for masterbuster666
MasterBuster666

7298

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Luke destroys Yoda like the widdle fodder he is.

Avatar image for straight-fire
Straight-Fire

31856

Forum Posts

6546

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

We know damn well if this fight happened Luke wouldn't stomp Yoda. Y'all living fantasies and I reject your deposits.

Avatar image for redsithdisciple
RedSithDisciple

2024

Forum Posts

456

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Always entertaining when casuals think they know what they're talking about...

Avatar image for supreme101
Supreme101

8798

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

Always entertaining when casuals think they know what they're talking about...

Right as if that green manlet could "kill" Luke the same guy who boxed with Vader and DE Sidious two beings who stated inferior too and barely stalemate they're weaker versions lmao.

Avatar image for straight-fire
Straight-Fire

31856

Forum Posts

6546

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

#35  Edited By Straight-Fire

Always entertaining when the supposed experts think they know everything...

Avatar image for nassergrant19
nassergrant19

30438

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

Avatar image for supreme101
Supreme101

8798

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

#37  Edited By Supreme101
@straight-fire said:

Always entertaining when the supposed experts think they know everything...

Reason as to why Luke wouldn't absolutely fold the stumpy green manlet like a lawn chair?

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

10388

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

The myths surrounding Star Wars Legends Luke Skywalker tend to fall apart when one simply reads the stories he's featured in, or the author interviews concerning his character in such mediums. If the man was leagues beyond the Jedi Grand Master or Sith Emperor, he'd have faced no challenges for the remainder of his life -- and no one else would have been considered comparable to him -- except perhaps Abeloth. That is, unless one wishes to argue that the Force was simply much more generous in Skywalker's era, bestowing far greater midi-chlorian counts than in times past, but this too does not hold up when so many of the trials and opponents in Skywalker's era find their origin in both the distant and near past. Luke Skywalker is a top tier contender -- arguably the single most powerful mortal in the mythos -- but it's best not to get carried away with arcane logic and connect-the-dots scaling.

Grand Master Yoda, a Jedi Knight of almost nine hundred years, reputed to be the greatest lightsaber master in galactic history, embodying the light side of the Force, unparalleled in his wisdom and knowledge of the Force, would certainly represent one of the most dangerous opponents Luke Skywalker could ever hope to face, whether as a powerful young man in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Endor, or as a seasoned Grand Master in his own right decades later.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

1280

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@straight-fire said:

Always entertaining when the supposed experts think they know everything...

Reason as to why Luke wouldn't absolutely fold the stumpy green manlet like a lawn chair?

This person is an emotional "debater" that isn't grounded in rationality in any capacity. Spends more time talking shit or being a cheerleader for the people actually debating, as opposed to actually making arguments.

The myths surrounding Star Wars Legends Luke Skywalker tend to fall apart when one simply reads the stories he's featured in, or the author interviews concerning his character in such mediums. If the man was leagues beyond the Jedi Grand Master or Sith Emperor, he'd have faced no challenges for the remainder of his life -- and no one else would have been considered comparable to him -- except perhaps Abeloth. That is, unless one wishes to argue that the Force was simply much more generous in Skywalker's era, bestowing far greater midi-chlorian counts than in times past, but this too does not hold up when so many of the trials and opponents in Skywalker's era find their origin in both the distant and near past. Luke Skywalker is a top tier contender -- arguably the single most powerful mortal in the mythos -- but it's best not to get carried away with arcane logic and connect-the-dots scaling.

Grand Master Yoda, a Jedi Knight of almost nine hundred years, reputed to be the greatest lightsaber master in galactic history, embodying the light side of the Force, unparalleled in his wisdom and knowledge of the Force, would certainly represent one of the most dangerous opponents Luke Skywalker could ever hope to face, whether as a powerful young man in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Endor, or as a seasoned Grand Master in his own right decades later.

Luke struggling is usually due to him not using his full power immediately due to being defense and passive until provoked enough, on top of his era just being stronger. The only notable person giving him trouble from a past era when serious is Krayt, who is an outlier.

Luke can get pushed though when outnumbered or caught off guard, but that's mainly a feat for his opponents.

Yoda will last against GM Luke, yes, unless he enters Oneness, but the gap between them is still large and it's still decently big in DE too. Luke, ignoring the Leia amp, was able to break through DE Sidious's Force barrier with his own Force push:

No Caption Provided

Him being strongest opponent Sidious ever faced also puts him above Oneness Galen Marek, who surpassed an Empire Era Sidious that was already above Yoda.

Luke's willingness to use what Yoda's order would consider the Light and Dark Side also makes him far more powerful, as using the Light and Dark together brings out one's true power and capabilities.

Avatar image for straight-fire
Straight-Fire

31856

Forum Posts

6546

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@seventhmoon: another random spreading lies about me. Keep my name out of your posts

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

1280

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@seventhmoon: another random spreading lies about me. Keep my name out of your posts

There's no lie. The evidence is in this thread alone.

Avatar image for the_wspanialy
the_wspanialy

777

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Yoda gets folded.

Avatar image for catman6
CatMan6

818

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for deactivated-661447c2a6ff0
deactivated-661447c2a6ff0

117

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Luke wins

Avatar image for macattack1
macattack1

2407

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#45  Edited By macattack1

I’ll be the odd one out and say Yoda here

DE Luke had surpassed Vader, but I don’t think he was particularly close to Sidious before getting a large amp. Sidious beat him pretty comfortably before that, and knocking someone back a bit with a single surprise force push doesn’t discount that.

I’m firmly in the Yoda > Vader camp as far as legends is concerned, and I don’t think DE Luke is enough above Vader to bridge that gap. I can see it being a close fight, but Yoda seems more skilled to me and would overwhelm Luke. His fighting style is also very unique and not something Luke have ever experienced before.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

1280

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I’ll be the odd one out and say Yoda here

DE Luke had surpassed Vader, but I don’t think he was particularly close to Sidious before getting a large amp. Sidious beat him pretty comfortably before that, and knocking someone back a bit with a single surprise force push doesn’t discount that.

I’m firmly in the Yoda > Vader camp as far as legends is concerned, and I don’t think DE Luke is enough above Vader to bridge that gap. I can see it being a close fight, but Yoda seems more skilled to me and would overwhelm Luke. His fighting style is also very unique and not something Luke have ever experienced before.

Sidious grew stronger slowly over time from RoTS to RoTJ. Then he got passively stronger more and more in DE, on top of getting a younger body, yet Luke was able to break his Force barrier and slam him into a wall, on top of being able to briefly keep up with him. Luke then gets stronger after that. His growth from ANH to RoTJ was absurd due to his potential and being a balanced Force user too, so by DE, he should be even more insane.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40796

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#47 Eredin12  Online

@seventhmoon: Yea Sidious grew massively post ROTS due to draining 20 billion people non stop on top of other sources of growth. OT Sidious would honestly one shot Yoda by raising his hand, let alone DE version. Yoda in general can be quite overrated in both canon and EU as some people just look at his fight with ROTS Sidious and ignore how much stronger Sidious later got.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

1280

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#48  Edited By SeventhMoon
@eredin12 said:

@seventhmoon: Yea Sidious grew massively post ROTS due to draining 20 billion people non stop on top of other sources of growth. OT Sidious would honestly one shot Yoda by raising his hand, let alone DE version. Yoda in general can be quite overrated in both canon and EU as some people just look at his fight with ROTS Sidious and ignore how much stronger Sidious later got.

I don't subscribe to this really. Think about how infinitely weaker the average person is compared to Sidious. Draining 20 billion of them very slowly to the point they can still live and go about their lives shouldn't really buff Sidious hardly at all. Maybe from RoTS to RoTJ, that accumulated time could've made a difference, but I don't believe RoTJ Sidious can stomp Yoda. I think he mid-diffs him.

DE Sidious does stomp him though.

Avatar image for eredin12
Eredin12

40796

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#49  Edited By Eredin12  Online

@seventhmoon: It is not about physical strength though, it is about the life force that he was draining from them. It has been shown time and time again with force users that such drains make a large difference in power on top of all other things he was doing to increase his power. To give you an analogy, think about how much Imperfect Cell grew as a result of absorbing life force of city's worth of people, going from being weaker than Piccolo to fodderizing 17. Likewise, keep in mind that even without drain, his natural growth during a few years of Clone Wars was such that Mace sensed it growing by a noticeable amount every day:

To Mace's Force perception, the world crystallized around them, becoming a gem of reality shot through with flaws and fault lines of possibility. This was Mace's particular gift: to see how people and situations fit together in the Force, to find the shear planes that can cause them to break in useful ways, and to intuit what sort of strike would best make the cut. Though he could not consistently determine the significance of the structures he perceived—the darkening cloud upon the Force that had risen with the rebirth of the Sith made that harder and harder with each passing day—the presence of shatterpoints was always clear.

--Revenge of the Sith novelization

And that too would continue for decades after ROTS. Furthermore, when you look at feats Yoda has, with what he struggles with(his fights with Dooku for example, granted that was before ROTS but still), and compare it against those Sidious does post ROTS that also becomes clear. OT Sidious would definitely stomp Yoda lmo.

Avatar image for thenamelessone
thenamelessone

12421

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

@seventhmoon: @eredin12:OT Sidious's Hologram nearly passively defeated Lightside Dark Empire Luke.

_”Palpatine's hologram: ...and I have come to realize that the dark side is my only ally. The dark side is the only means to power.

R2-D2: (beeb beeb)

Luke: Be quiet, R2, I don't care about the time, but can you do someting about the heat? I suddenly... feel... cold...

Palpatine's hologram: My explorations of the Force have revealed to me many wonderful secrets.

Luke: Cold... like a dead hand pressing on my heart...

Palpatine's hologram: I have learned that Anger and Will, when joined together, forge a most unholy and devastating alliance.

Luke: Maybe R2's right... time to leave... but it's like a great weight... pressing down on me... I... can't move... can't... leave...

Palpatine's hologram: Using Anger, I have learned to unlock the hidden reservoirs of the glorious dark side power.

Luke: No...

Palpatine's hologram: Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal, through which vast energies are released. The energies of the dark side of the Force. This is the power I command, now that I am one with the dark side.

Luke: Is this what my father felt?

Palpatine's hologram: With these energies, I have slain my enemies across the empty reaches of space.

Luke: I shouldn't... listen...

Palpatine's hologram: I have created lightning, and unleashed devastating fires.

Luke: ...but I can't... stop...

Palpatine's hologram: With this knowledge, I can unleash dark side energies that swirl invisibly around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created Storms.

Luke: Got... to break... free!

R2-D2: (beeb beeb)

Luke: I'm... alright, R2. (panting). This place... is still strong with the dark side. And the presence of the Emperor, even in a hologram, is almost overpowering.”_

Dark Empire: Audio Drama

I don't even really think that Yoda can stand in front of OT Sidious straight, not going to even lie.