Darish Vol vs Darth Caedus

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The_Buddha_

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Fight is in an open grass field, both start 100m apart.

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firelordiroh

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Darish Vol.

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the_wspanialy

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Hard to say since we don't exactly know how powerful Vol is. Could go either way, I think.

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The_Buddha_

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@the_wspanialy: What do you mean by we don’t know how powerful he is? He’s one (and a half, or two) oneshot tiers above Kyle Katarn.

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Necromancer76

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#5  Edited By Necromancer76

Darish Vol

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AmethystGravity

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Vol has a contextual telepathic feat against Abeloth, a decent accolade from a mentally-recovering Abeloth, and vague scaling off his subordinates, which is offset by the fact that he might be approaching the age where augmentation can't fully compensate for his failing body. He has no saber feats (or combatively-relevant force abilities in general, as far as I recall) to compare with Caedus, and probably dies in a duel.

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the_wspanialy

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@the_wspanialy: What do you mean by we don’t know how powerful he is? He’s one (and a half, or two) oneshot tiers above Kyle Katarn.

Based on what exactly? All we know is that he's supposedly far more powerful than Ivaar Workan, someone who performed way worse against Luke than Viun Galaan (who is, at best, Katarn's equal).

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El_mago

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Vol stomps where is the debate?

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The_Buddha_

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@the_wspanialy: Workan is, per LTOTS hierarchy, far more powerful than Gaalan. Workan is far more powerful than Sashal, and all the High Lords are “utter masters” of the force, in apparent contrast to the lords, who are not, and Gaalan is a Lord, compared to Workan’s status as a high lord.

Also, Luke withholding his power against basically all opponents (Nyax, UnuThul, Abeloth notwithstanding) exists. Personally, I’d say Workan’s showing against a basically fresh Luke is better than Gaalan being thrown out casually. Gaalan is ~ Katarn as a combatant per Luke.

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i_like_swords

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Vol wins. Rooting himself against Abeloth long enough to throw his full power into attacking her mind, which she later recounted as a "devastating encounter" that would suggest Vol has "much the power of Luke Skywalker" (Abeloth has seen Luke bursting with Force energy from every cell in his body prior to this), is better than what Caedus has.

We don't have any details on Vol's physical abilities, but that doesn't prove they are lacking either. Often enough a superior command of the Force is more important than raw skill anyway, and I'm sure being the leader of a cutthroat Sith Order for the better part of a century Vol's combat abilities have seen sufficient practice.

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The_Buddha_

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@amethystgravity: What's so contextual about his bout against Abeloth? Vol "roots himself" and resists "a blast of Force Anger". There's nothing bad about that.

Abeloth notes Vol as having "much of the power of Skywalker, and experience", and it was a "devastating counter" for her. She calls him Luke's "antithesis", in the same area, and when you combine both quotes, then you have almost certain evidence that Vol is near FOTJ Luke. I also disagree with the concept that Caedus' saber advantage is enough here. Caedus holds his own against a super hindered Luke (emotional shock, and the actual event is much more traumatic than the afterevents), but I consider Caedus as maybe having the ability to compete because he's a blitz tier above his Inferno self, and therefore can blitz any NJO Master. But he's certainly not near Luke.

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the_wspanialy

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#12  Edited By the_wspanialy

@the_buddha_ said:

@the_wspanialy: Workan is, per LTOTS hierarchy, far more powerful than Gaalan. Workan is far more powerful than Sashal, and all the High Lords are “utter masters” of the force, in apparent contrast to the lords, who are not, and Gaalan is a Lord, compared to Workan’s status as a high lord.

Also, Luke withholding his power against basically all opponents (Nyax, UnuThul, Abeloth notwithstanding) exists. Personally, I’d say Workan’s showing against a basically fresh Luke is better than Gaalan being thrown out casually. Gaalan is ~ Katarn as a combatant per Luke.

Revan was the most powerful Jedi in the Order, while still a Knight. Hero of Tython was the most powerful Jedi in the Order, while still a Knight. Anakin Skywalker was the most powerful Jedi in the Order, while still a Knight. The list goes on.

The quote you're reffering to tells us how the LTotS hierarchy is supposed to work, wheter it actually does is entirely different matter. Just beceuse High Lords are supposed to be more powerful than Lords by default, doesn't mean they actually are. Hierarchy means pretty much nothing.

Unless there's a clear indication that Luke holds back in a specific fight, "Luke jobbs" remains headcanon and sign of lack of actual arguments.

We have clear indication that Luke was holding back against Workan, and Workan still suffered significant injuries. By contrast, there's no such indication in Gaalan's case, who not only managed to remain intact but he actually earned a praise from Luke himself.

Feats > statements. Gaalan > Workan.

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AmethystGravity

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@the_buddha_:

What's so contextual about his bout against Abeloth? Vol "roots himself" and resists "a blast of Force Anger". There's nothing bad about that.

Abeloth was absolutely overwhelming Vol with raw power, but left her defenses open because of her careless all-out attack, which is how Vol managed to use his dark side version of Mnemotherapy. Obviously, it's not a bad showing to not be on Abeloth's level of telepathic power, but it's clear that in his showing he had a specific opening to deal damage, and even then, he was left haggard and weak afterwards.

Abeloth notes Vol as having "much of the power of Skywalker, and experience", and it was a "devastating counter" for her. She calls him Luke's "antithesis", in the same area, and when you combine both quotes, then you have almost certain evidence that Vol is near FOTJ Luke. I also disagree with the concept that Caedus' saber advantage is enough here. Caedus holds his own against a super hindered Luke (emotional shock, and the actual event is much more traumatic than the afterevents), but I consider Caedus as maybe having the ability to compete because he's a blitz tier above his Inferno self, and therefore can blitz any NJO Master. But he's certainly not near Luke.

Abeloth noted all this when she was still a literally mangled mess of flesh after the attack--hardly an objective source. Also, I'd like to see the quote again, just to see the exact wording.

Besides, Vol was stomped by the Roki Kem Abeloth off-screne, so to speak, (a version with a non-force sensitive body, which per Apocalypse seems to be poorly suited for Abeloth's power), to the point where apparently none of the Lost Tribe even noticed their conflict. Sure, Vol didn't know that Roki Kem was Abeloth, and it could've been a fatal surprise attack, but that just ties into the fact that Vol has no combat feats to compare with Caedus. Compare this to exhausted and injured Luke force pulling the Korelei Abeloth onto his lightsaber blade, and it seems like there's more than a fair gap between Vol and Skywalker.

Also, Vol literally has no saber feats. While we can assume some competency, and we do know that Force power correlates with augmentation and proficiency, for all we know, he could be like Vitiate/Valkorion and have little focus with the blade. There's other examples of characters with lightsaber skill being a fair amount inferior their power, like Vaylin in her second duel with Senya, so without any knowledge on how Vol's skill stacks up to his power, I don't see why he's anywhere near Caedus, let alone Luke, in sabers.

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i_like_swords

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#14  Edited By i_like_swords

@amethystgravity: Vol was on the brink of death after the first fight, so seeing as the second takes place off-panel, I'm not sure why you think this proves anything? If he was stomped there is a valid excuse, and if he wasn't that's an astounding feat unto itself, but either way, it was off-panel. In contrast, the first (and more important) fight happens on the telepathic plane. So the strength of her avatar is irrelevant.

Abeloth tries to sever the connection between them with a blast but Vol resists her. She only severs the connection after Vol throws "all" of his energy into a final attack (which alone would exhaust him, by definition), and following this she blasts him again and he still survives, if only barely.

I'm not aware of any reason Abeloth should not be an objective assessor of her own situation, but if you have evidence, I'm willing to see it.

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DarthAdi

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Vol tanking a force blast from Abeloth and rooting himself against her long enough to land an attack is more impressive than any of the Caedus'feats

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AmethystGravity

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#16  Edited By AmethystGravity

@i_like_swords:

Vol was on the brink of death after the first fight, so seeing as the second takes place off-panel, I'm not sure why you think this proves anything? If he was stomped there is a valid excuse, and if he wasn't that's an astounding feat unto itself, but either way, it was off-panel. In contrast, the first (and more important) fight happens on the telepathic plane. So the strength of her avatar is irrelevant.

Didn't enough time pass after the first fight for the Lost Tribe to travel to Coruscant, begin their infiltration, and after that they had to become elected/hired/appointed as senators, news anchors, judges, and other government/civilian positions, after which Abeloth lured Vol to fighting her? If it was stated Vol was still exhausted, that's fine, but if not, I don't see why he wouldn't have had ample time to recover his strength and health. This is especially since an exhausted and injured Luke recovered enough from less than four days in Bacta from his fight with Abeloth (where after fighting nonstop against her and her minions, Luke got hit pointblank from her Force lightning for an extended period of time) to fight her again in Beyond Shadows with Krayt, I again don't see how Vol compares that favorably with Luke.

And I agree the strength of the avatar would only be relevant in the second fight, which is what I was referring to. As for the first battle on the telepathic plane, considering Lord Dramath, who got wrecked by child Vitiate, managed to damage Valkorion on the telepathic plane, I again don't see why this telepathic showing is the greatest comparison for Vol's raw power, especially in a physical combat setting.

Abeloth tries to sever the connection between them with a blast but Vol resists her. She only severs the connection after Vol throws "all" of his energy into a final attack (which alone would exhaust him, by definition), and following this she blasts him again and he still survives, if only barely.

It would be nice to see the original text, though unfortunately all the public libraries near me are closed, under the circumstances. Still, I don't see how this detracts from my point that he only achieved such damage because Abeloth carelessly dropped her defenses in her telepathic attack. It's impressive that he managed to resist her attempt at severing the connection, but I'm not sure what points of comparison there are for that and other telepathic feats in Star Wars. Unless Caedus goes for a TP attack, I don't see how that feat is particularly relevant.

I'm not aware of any reason Abeloth should not be an objective assessor of her own situation, but if you have evidence, I'm willing to see it.

For one thing, this is Abeloth after the telepathic attack at her inmost being, and for another, she's already mentally unstable to begin with. That being said, I don't see why evidence for Abeloth not being objective is necessary, since the burden of proof should be on showing why in-universe, possibly subjective character statements are sufficient evidence in the first place to cement Vol as being on or near Luke's level.

Edit: I just found a respect thread with all the quotes in it. I might actually change my mind, going off of his other accolades, though it's not entirely clear from the quotes from whose perspective some of those are from.

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@amethystgravity: He was described as being so weak he couldn't even move a small object with TK or pull himself from the floor, and also that he was close to death. However even if he did recover (I wasn't aware the interim could have been that long) it still happened off-panel.

The Dramath thing is far more circumstance-ridden and uniquely personal to Valkorion than the Abeloth-Vol fight, but you mentioned earlier that you think it's too circumstantial to use as evidence for Vol?

It's a great comparison because it more closely pits their raw power against one another without any environmental factors. Abeloth not being able to blast Vol away from her and being devastated by his attack (despite her being much superior to full-powered Luke and capable of tanking his best attacks) is just great however you slice it.

Since we're discussing burden of proof, you've given yourself the burden of proving that Abeloth is so mentally unstable that she cannot accurately gauge the relative strength of two Force users she has had very intimate fights with respectively. That's your claim. You're essentially saying to Abeloth "yes, I hear what you're saying, but you're not in the right frame of mind to be making any judgements".

If you're asking me to prove that Force users have good judgement about these things, that's been demonstrated countless times across the lore. An example would be Yoda gauging Dooku's relative strength to Windu which would be validated when the two of them fight in the comic Obsession.

If you're saying that a character statement only ever carries weight when proven on a case by case basis, that's fine, but then I'm curious why you're confident Caedus wins? Most of his best stuff is reliant on character perspectives and statements, and there's no particular feat of his I know of that makes me think he could duplicate what Vol did with Abeloth.

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The_Buddha_

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@amethystgravity: Just for reference, that was a weakened spirit Valk that gets up ten seconds later after a suicide blast from Dramath who prepped for this moment for centuries.

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@the_buddha_:

Just for reference, that was a weakened spirit Valk that gets up ten seconds later after a suicide blast from Dramath who prepped for this moment for centuries.

Well, Valk did say the blast pierced his armor (whatever that means), but I was unaware that Dramath had time to prep.

@i_like_swords:

He was described as being so weak he couldn't even move a small object with TK or pull himself from the floor, and also that he was close to death. However even if he did recover (I wasn't aware the interim could have been that long) it still happened off-panel.

Where does it say he was close to death? Abeloth muses that she almost killed him, but I thought that was referring to how if her attack had succeeded, Vol definitely would've been dead. Regardless, it's true that he was extremely exhausted, though that level of exhaustion is matched by Luke collapsing after his fight with the Korelei Abeloth, and Luke recovered in what's probably a shorter time period that it took for Workan to be elected and instated as Senator.

If you want to dismiss the possible low-showing since it's off-panel, that's fine, since it could have been a surprise attack, given Vol thought Roki Kem was just a non-force sensitive Senator.

The Dramath thing is far more circumstance-ridden and uniquely personal to Valkorion than the Abeloth-Vol fight, but you mentioned earlier that you think it's too circumstantial to use as evidence for Vol?

As mentioned above, I didn't realize Dramath had prep for his feat. As for the Vol fight, from that Respect Thread:

"He took a precious second to wrap the Force around him like a blanket, then unshielded his mind and opened it to Abeloth.

In her arrogant glee at the ambush she had performed, she was reckless. She surged forward, violating his mind, unaware that this was precisely what Vol wanted. She had given him entrance, and he wasted not a heartbeat in opening up to the ugliness that was within. Like a thief with the law on his heels, Vol plundered swiftly, with no care for delicacy or of discovery. And he found unexpected riches."

At the start of their telepathic fight, Abeloth is arrogant and inadvertently lets Vol in, possibly thinking that Vol had surrendered. It's a great showing of Vol's cunning and adaptation, but not solely related to power.

"He felt her astonishment, and then fury, and knew he was discovered. The tendrils were no longer coyly teasing and caressing. They were violent and brutal now, wrapping about his throat, invading his body. He resisted and went on the attack. There was a wound, visible as something black and bloody and infected, in what passed for a soul or a heart of this monster. And he went right for it."

It's clear that up to this point, Abeloth had at least been partially toying with him. While it's impressive he resisted her throwing him out of her mind, she had already let him in to the core of her being, so it could be more difficult for her to fling him out from there.

"Elation filled Vol. He only hoped he could survive long enough to deal the killing blow.

He threw everything he had into the attack, slamming his Force self into the psychic, oozing wound as if he were punching a lacerated torso.

NO!

Her pain exploded and hurled him back, releasing him, but causing the most exquisite agony Vol had ever experienced to race through every part of his being."

At the end of their fight, Vol puts his all into destroying the core of Abeloth, and she manages to reject him.

Again, I think it's a great showing for Vol in the sense that he took advantage of a mistake his stronger opponent had made to turn around an otherwise impossible battle, but it's hard to ignore the circumstances that allowed him access to her most vulnerable areas, including:

  1. Abeloth wasn't taking the fight extremely seriously, with "arrogant glee" giving Vol an entrance and "tentacles coyly teasing and caressing."
  2. By the time Abeloth realizes her mistake, Vol already has access to the core of her being.
  3. Towards the end, Abeloth still manages to repel Vol, her pain overpowering "everything he had."

It's a great comparison because it more closely pits their raw power against one another without any environmental factors. Abeloth not being able to blast Vol away from her and being devastated by his attack (despite her being much superior to full-powered Luke and capable of tanking his best attacks) is just great however you slice it.

The issue is that Abeloth was unable to blast Vol away after she let him past her defenses into the core of her being, and she still was able to expel him.

The way you're phrasing this seems similar to your argument for Krayt's performance beyond shadows, but I think Vol's performance in the mental plane isn't nearly as good as Krayt's in beyond shadows. The Abeloth Vol was fighting made a huge blunder in giving him free access to her mind, while she made no such error against Luke and Krayt. So while there aren't environmental factors, it's still a pretty significant circumstance that allowed Vol to do as well as he did.

Since we're discussing burden of proof, you've given yourself the burden of proving that Abeloth is so mentally unstable that she cannot accurately gauge the relative strength of two Force users she has had very intimate fights with respectively. That's your claim. You're essentially saying to Abeloth "yes, I hear what you're saying, but you're not in the right frame of mind to be making any judgements".

If you're asking me to prove that Force users have good judgement about these things, that's been demonstrated countless times across the lore. An example would be Yoda gauging Dooku's relative strength to Windu which would be validated when the two of them fight in the comic Obsession.

Sure, Yoda can make an accurate assessment (though their duel in Obsession was interrupted by Magnaguards and didn't seem particularly long), but Yoda trained both Windu and Dooku, sparred with both, and had engaged Dooku in a contest of both their respective Force abilities and then their dueling on Geonosis.

On the other hand, while Abeloth has plenty of experience with Luke, her experience with Vol consists of:

  1. Being entertained by Vol during the celebrations for Abeloth's arrival.
  2. Attacking Vol psychically, accidentally allowing Vol entrance into her mind--during which he did his best to trash her inner psych--and then repelling him.

Neither of those provide proof that seem enough for Abeloth to have gained a significant measure of understanding regarding Vol's power.

If you're saying that a character statement only ever carries weight when proven on a case by case basis, that's fine, but then I'm curious why you're confident Caedus wins? Most of his best stuff is reliant on character perspectives and statements, and there's no particular feat of his I know of that makes me think he could duplicate what Vol did with Abeloth.

Almost all of Vol's standing comes from character statements, whereas Caedus has a plethora of combative feats. As for Caedus duplicating what Vol did, I don't know whether or not many Force users would necessarily be willing and able to do what Vol did in a similar mental confrontation, given how I can't think of too many mental battles like that (the closest I can think of is what Luke did vs Cronal, but that clearly didn't have the same power differential).

At the same time, if this statement from Workan on that Respect Thread is true, I think Vol could potentially win.

"No. If something happened and his Master found that Workan had not warned him, Workan would not live long enough to draw breath to apologize. It had to be now."

I'm not sure that statement literally translates to "Workan would get speedblitzed by Vol," (especially since Luke, who is clearly > Vol, didn't speed blitz Workan), and I think Workan's performance against Luke isn't quite as good as Caedus's, given how the initial circumstances favored Workan (Luke was trying to capture Workan alive, and Workan had time to prepare since he and his Sith sabers heard the Jedi breaking in while Ben and Vestara tried bluffing, whereas Luke was ultimately trying to kill Caedus and started the fight by springing at his back). Still, I think that Workan (someone who would know a fair amount about Vol's power, given their experience together) musing that he's borderline fodder to Vol does mean a lot, since--given their respective performances against Luke--the gap between Workan and Caedus probably isn't as large as that.

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The_Buddha_

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I'm not sure that statement literally translates to "Workan would get speedblitzed by Vol," (especially since Luke, who is clearly > Vol, didn't speed blitz Workan), and I think Workan's performance against Luke isn't quite as good as Caedus's, given how the initial circumstances favored Workan (Luke was trying to capture Workan alive, and Workan had time to prepare since he and his Sith sabers heard the Jedi breaking in while Ben and Vestara tried bluffing, whereas Luke was ultimately trying to kill Caedus and started the fight by springing at his back). Still, I think that Workan (someone who would know a fair amount about Vol's power, given their experience together) musing that he's borderline fodder to Vol does mean a lot, since--given their respective performances against Luke--the gap between Workan and Caedus probably isn't as large as that.

Well, Luke was trying to keep Workan alive, plus Luke always holds back his power, he never goes all-out in a fight. He only does so against a remote few entities like Nyax, Kueller, Abeloth, and UnuThul post-DE.

Also, Caedus fought a hindered Luke. There's that quote about emotional shock in Fury, which I know everyone dismisses because it's referring to Luke after the fight, plus the "battle rage" thing, but that's a bad interpretation imo. Luke sees Jacen torturing Ben, then he drinks in the scene, he goes "this was really happening", still disbelieving it, and then he springs into an attack. Even though the quote after the fight, an incident that causes trauma is naturally more traumatic than the aftereffects, right? Luke after the thing is traumatized, there's even a quote saying he wants to rejoin Mara, or die (he's suicidal at this stage). Like, it was far more traumatic for a soldier in World War II when there were bullets being shot at them, rather than being home and remembering the incidents years later.

Caedus also took advantage of the environment that Luke wasn't as familiar with, and he used the Embrace of Pain, which hindered Luke, but he uses it like a bath basically, so it amped him because pain amps Jacen.

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Vol has "much of the power of" Luke.

Caedus is fodder to Luke.

Seems like the author made this really clear cut.

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The_Buddha_

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