I'll respond to these one at a time, starting with this one:
@paytience said:
@shroudofsorrow said:
@paytience said:
@shroudofsorrow: Except for the point where May and Ward would both stomp Matt. There is also the point May never beat her. In the8r first fight, it was over Furyvs toolbox. May was supposed take control of the toolbox and escape. Bobbi took the toolbox and May was captured. Their second fight was clear cut...Bobbi won.
OK
I assume you meant to say "was beating them" before she was finally overwhelmed?
Ignoring for a moment the spelling errors, which superhumans has May fought, and what were their powers? Because if none of their powers pertain to strength, speed, or fighting skill, it means less if she can take them out in H2H.
She beat Tobias Ford, a teleporter essentially; She beat Francis Noche, Super Strength; Eva Belyakov, super strength sufficient enough to tank a car hitting her with no damage-the car was destroyed; She was beating Carl Creel noticeably, the absorbing man, who had sufficient strength that last week he easily broke the cuffs that were holding Coulson and Talbot. She fought on Par with centipedes on two occasions...at least one of those times was against Haywward, a spec ops guy. At a later point, she was able to disarm Kaminsky who was using the berserker staff, and then use the staff to defeat a team of Centipede soldiers. She also of course beat Marcus Scarlotti, aka whiplash, who was known for almost killing Hawkeye. It is of note because Scarlotti uses a chainspear, which is a much faster chain type then the Kasurigama that Nobu uses...May was able to to easily avoid it.
I wouldn't go as far as to say he "struggled". Kingpin gave him a good fight, but Matt ultimately won and also seemed to have the upper hand for most of it anyway.
Fisk CLEARLY takes the advantage in this fight several times; the final time is literally a situation where had it not been for his armor, DD would have been creamed. Saying that he didn't struggle against Fisk is frankly, incorrect.
As for his fights with the Punisher, he was winning their first fight and lost because Punisher had a gun, not because Frank was a better fighter. Second time Matt was still addled from the concussion he'd gotten from Punisher's headshot plus the fall.
He wasn't their first fight at all. He got the drop on Punisher, and Punisher put him out. It isn't even debatable. Punisher left him motionless long enough to LEAVE the area. The only reason he didn't kill DD at that point is because he didn't want to kill him. DD then got up and attacked him by surprise again, and he got shot in the head for it...the only reason he survived that is because according to Melvin Potter, Punisher shot himm precisely enough to hit the exact spot so that it wouldn't kill him.
Like it or not, at around 40 secoonds in, this fight is done.
Here is their second fight:
Again, DD catches Punisher by surprise again, this time kicking him off a reservoir. They fight, and Frank takes DD's baton away and drops him with it. He then maintains that advantage until the cops start shooting at him, and even then is beating Daredevil pretty much right up until he get's shot. It is only THEN, after he is put under fire and takes a bullet that DD takes any sort of advantage...and he still got put through a skylight for it.
1. Given that Matt took a beating from Kingpin after being badly injured by Nobu without his armor, and then went smashing through a window and lasted long enough to make it all the way back to his apartment, I've long questioned the idea that Matt couldn't beat Fisk without his armor. He has some pretty good durability showings without it. Yes, Kingpin gets the upper hand at a few points...but DD had the upper hand at a few points as well, and he ultimately won. Saying that Matt would have definitively lost without his armor isn't ringing true with me.
2. Incorrect. Matt's on the ground at 0:36 and gets up less than ten seconds later, catching up with Punisher before he can leave the area. That's not at all what you were suggesting. DD recovered fast enough to catch up with Punisher and resume the fight, and had Punisher on the ground before Frank drew a gun and shot him. That's winning via gun, not superior H2H skill. Matt was winning beforehand.
3. I believe as I mentioned, Matt was likely still recovering from his concussion in fight 2, and at the end of their fight, you can see Matt staggering and can tell that his senses are still screwed up. Punisher even catches on to this and takes advantage of it to win. Matt wasn't exactly at his A-game there. That he still gave Punisher a good fight even under those conditions is noteworthy.
Now to the second one...
@paytience said:
@shroudofsorrow said:
@nfactor1995: Cool.
Fight 1: As I had remembered, her fight in the red coat is a pretty low showing. It was two henchmen and she had the drop on them, and it still took her over ten seconds to take them out.
I don't know what makes it a low showing. She beats them easily. As for taking a long time...I don't know how you wnna judge camera cuts, but okay. I present this...those are Hydra agents. In the beginning of TWS, Widow is taking on Hydra agents as well...how long does she take to put down two? Furthermore, I present this...these were agents in full kit. Body armor and helmets...how long does it take DD to put down unarmored opponents with not a fraction of the training with his batons?
Fight 2: Once again, she seems to be taking considerable effort to take out her opposition. Where those opponents superhuman at all, or where they just henchmen? It seemed like they might have been Vampires...
Considerable effort compared to what? She takes out multiple armed men easily with a napkin. I don't get what you're trying to criticize here, unless you wanna compare her taking on the personal bodyguard of an arms dealer who works for Hydra. You wanna compare that to the effore it takes DD to take down Irish mobsters?
Fight 3: She seemed to not be doing much damage to him. I'll credit her for putting up a valiant effort on the Luke Cage wannabe, but I wouldn't consider that beyond Daredevil's ability to do.
That was Kree sentry Mack, the same guy she is sparring later. He was granted some emasure of enhanced strength, and a good amount of durability...he was able to survive a fall of several stories into the city below with no noticeable damage. Consdiering his struggles with Fisk and Melvin Potter in similar situations and tight environments...I don't know how would fare against that version of Mack.
Fights 4 and 5: Didn't do very well there either, but considering that the opponent was a brick-type foe with superhuman strength, DD wouldn't have done much better, so there is that.
That was the Kree who took on Sif, Vin-Tak. She got tossed once and then Daisy's powers started fritzing, and she got him the second time around.
Fight 6: Now that's more like it. Any feats for that guy, or was he just a grunt? Either way, it's a solid showing.
Coulson: John Bruno, Military assassin. Became an obsession of his discovering creative ways to kill.
Fight 7: Also better, though her having to exploit the environment somewhat is noteworthy. Does Carla have any feats? Decent showing either way. Should be comparable to DD's beating Rance, or better if Carla has feats.
Same episode as the above guy. She is indexed, but is essentially a one episode character. In this same episode May fights Francis Noche.
Fight 8: Fighting evenly with May is a very good showing in my book. Not much more to say about this one. Her reacting to May in time to keep from getting shot would also suggest reflexes on par with Daredevil's, so that's also good.
Her better feat came right before that clip picked up. May has her at gunpoint and Bobbi kicks of a desk and backflips out the window before May can get a shot off...and yes, May does actually shoot.
Fight 9: Pretty good. Feats for him? Who is he anyway?
That is Mack, the guy was made the Kree sentry in the earlier clip.
Fight 10: Was that May or 33? If the former, she went down way too easily. I'm calling that a PIS showing, especially in view of May challenging her the first time around. If the latter...less sure.
That is agent 33.
Fight 11: This is a very good showing, considering she was injured and fighting two credible opponents at once. And consistent with her being about on par with May going off of their first fight.
It is a really good showing.
In all, there's some definite inconsistency that I'm seeing, but the better showings should have her above Daredevil, so I stand by my stance; she does indeed win. I do still like DD and his show more though :)
Bobbi vs May again...keep in mind, Bobbi is still rehabing here from the broken knee, and the AR15 round that took out her lung.
Bobbi again from season 3...these Batons are standard issue for her. She used them again this episode and last week as well. An overlooked thing is how tankish Bobbi is. She ate 33's hits easy to give back a hard one, and in this scene she takes a high kick to the face and it barely registers...and then she teeps the crap out of him.
1. Several problems here: 1) Hydra agents are still text-book fodder in the MCU. 2) Black Widow did NOT take out Hydra agents in TWS, they were pirates under Batroc. And it's a red herring, because I never considered Widow to be Daredevil's equal or better either. That it took her a while to take out two pirates isn't the best showing for her. 3) Varies. Sometimes, Matt does have to exercise effort to take down unarmored opponents, other times he downs them a heck of a lot quicker than Mockingbird did for those guys. But, since there is the difference of armor versus unarmored, there is that. I will concede that their wearing armor makes it seem less like a low showing, since it accounts for the length of time needed to win.
One last thing though; how much training you've had with a weapon doesn't mean much if another person is better with it. Not saying Matt is, but my point being that saying he's had less training with his weapons doesn't automatically prove he's inferior with them. The feats are supposed to determine that, or failing that, accolades. Experience doesn't matter.
2. Napkins? That was against Carla. I don't know what you're referring to there. In that entire fight with those men she and the other chap didn't ever use "napkins", unless I was missing something. Bobbi was using her clubs, as per usual, and he used a chair before tossing her what looked like a club. Also, being an arms dealer or working for Hydra doesn't make you any better of a fighter than Irish mobsters. Consider Matt beat a greater number of foes than was shown here (though not by much), while not in his armor and recovering from injuries that included multiple broken ribs. Towards the ends of the first season he again swiftly takes out a fair-sized number of goons without his armor. That none of those men were arms dealers or working for Hydra is actually irrelevant, as there is nothing to suggest that either of those things matters. Especially since it's not like common criminals can't be arms dealers. Turk sells weapons in Daredevil, it doesn't make him a credible fighter at all.
3. Durability's not the same as strength, and I never said Matt would beat him. I said that doing what Bobbi did (annoying him for a while before being overwhelmed), is probably about what Matt would be able to do. It's a moot point really, because he was clearly above Bobbi, and would clearly be above Matt, so there's little reason to bring it up at all. He's just on a different tier...at least at that point in time. If she can easily trounce him later in a sparring match, that really suggests inconsistency to me. He's doing very well one moment, but looking like an amateur the next. I call that inconsistent.
4. Thanks for clarification on the Kree sentry.
5. His being a military assassin who was obsessed with finding creative ways to kill doesn't actually prove fighting skill. In fact, the best assassins are often the ones who kill through discrete means, not fighting it out. So, we know he's a prolific killer, but what if most of his kills were not done through combat but through, say...poison or sniping? Not to mention that that would make it more credible that he's lasted so long. Most assassins tend to die during the course of what they do. If he's lasted as long as he has, I think we can infer that he's not the sort of assassin who goes in fists flying or guns blazing. All that being said, he shouldn't be any worse a fighter than Kingpin's hitman Rance, and Mockingbird beat this guy more easily, so that does look good for her.
6. If Carla has no real feats, than Bobbi beating her with environmental help should be on par with DD's beating the featless Rance with environmental help.
7. Not much to say concerning Bobbi's reaction speed, since it just reinforces what I already think; her reaction speeds are about the same as Matt's. Yes, May is a better shot than common thugs, but is she anymore quick to fire? And in any case, DD has reacted to more than one gunman at a time, so their reflexes should be comparable in any case.
8. Mack again, huh? And pre-superhuman? Then he's just a grunt, but the ease and swiftness with which she trounced him is impressive.
9. I had a feeling. Stomping 33 is another very nice showing.
10. The second May fight is nice. If the whole thing was a test though, I could make the case that May might have been holding back, but it matters little in any case given the relative swiftness with which Bobbi won.
But ultimately, everything here is a moot point, because I did already concede that Bobbi would win based on her better showings anyway. Not much reason to keep going over technicalities. Unless you want to, I guess. But ultimately, even without the inconsistency regarding our superhumans, her beating May, beating 33 easily, and contending with Ward and 33 while injured are all above anything Matt's done to date, and a lot of her other showings can match his. I wouldn't call it a stomp or claim that Mockingbird is leaps and bounds above him, but she is definitely still of a higher level of skill. So Mockingbird wins just about every time.
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