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#52 Edited by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@boringperson said:
@nickzambuto said:

I think a bloodlusted Mathew is something to be reckoned with. Back in season 1 he nearly solo'd Nobu and Fisk through sheer will and resourcefulness (if not for Fisk's armor), and in this season he finally surpassed Nobu as a fighter when he was willing to use lethal force. Under normal circumstances Matt's morals will hold him back, in fact Merlyn recently stated this as the exact reason Thea could never defeat him, and he expressed similar sentiments towards Oliver in season 1.

They say the Murdock boys got the devil in 'em. However, Matt tries to restrain that devil, Merlyn fully lets loose with every bit of evil and savagery and insanity he has in him, and it works to great effect.

Nobu lost completely due to luck on Daredevil's part. Daredevil was so beat by the end of the fight that he could barely stand...

Nobu also hasn't really lost to Daredevil yet... he lost to a combination of Daredevil and Elektra. Also, Nobu's Shoge are really a experience based weapon, Daredevil's gotten used to it having fought against it multiple times by Season 2's end. If he were up against it for the first time again, I'm not sure he'd do any better.

Merlyn has also used explosive arrows in character before, so it's not unreasonable to put them in his quiver in round 2. Daredevil is completely screwed against explosive arrows.

Daredevil probably wins on damage soak in round one, but likely loses horribly in round two due to Merlyn's better equipment.

Yeah Matt got lucky in the S1 fight

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Daredevil was also holding his own against Nobu on the roof solo

I don't think explosive arrows are standard gear for Malcom

@miraclecomeback said:

R1 matt

R2 malcom

Any reasons?

@lubub55 said:

Malcolm stomps both rounds.

No one's stomping

Why do you think Malcom wins?

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#53 Posted by jashro44 (53145 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

I think a bloodlusted Mathew is something to be reckoned with. Back in season 1 he nearly solo'd Nobu and Fisk through sheer will and resourcefulness (if not for Fisk's armor), and in this season he finally surpassed Nobu as a fighter when he was willing to use lethal force. Under normal circumstances Matt's morals will hold him back, in fact Merlyn recently stated this as the exact reason Thea could never defeat him, and he expressed similar sentiments towards Oliver in season 1.

They say the Murdock boys got the devil in 'em. However, Matt tries to restrain that devil, Merlyn fully lets loose with every bit of evil and savagery and insanity he has in him, and it works to great effect.

Nobu lost completely due to luck on Daredevil's part. Daredevil was so beat by the end of the fight that he could barely stand...

Nobu also hasn't really lost to Daredevil yet... he lost to a combination of Daredevil and Elektra. Also, Nobu's Shoge are really a experience based weapon, Daredevil's gotten used to it having fought against it multiple times by Season 2's end. If he were up against it for the first time again, I'm not sure he'd do any better.

How was it completely due to luck? Also Nobu never lost to daredevil? Elektra was a complete non-factor throughout the final fight, Matt was pulling all the weight and even without her interference Matt was the one who landed more hits. Your final point about the Shoge can be said about anything really. Experience makes everything easier.

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#54 Posted by captain_batman_FTW (8905 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

Merlyn both rounds. Better where it counts.

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#55 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio
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#56 Posted by captain_batman_FTW (8905 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:

@captain_batman_ftw: What do you think makes Merlyn better?

Stomping season one Oliver, who is better than Daredevil and his better feats of easily catching arrows, etc.

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#57 Posted by Hollow_Point (1451 posts) - - Show Bio

@boringperson: the explosive arrows in the arrowverse are incredibly inconsistent... Ollie fired one at Wade's feet and it somehow knocked him out without damaging his clothes or shoes. These are the same arrows that Laurel used to blow a hole in a giant pile of debris episodes later...

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#58 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:

@captain_batman_ftw: What do you think makes Merlyn better?

Stomping season one Oliver, who is better than Daredevil and his better feats of easily catching arrows, etc.

What's S1 Ollie done that's better than Daredevil?

DD can block arrows just fine. Sure Malcom has more feats against arrows cause he regularly fights archers, but I don't think it's anything that puts him that much above Daredevil

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#59 Posted by captain_batman_FTW (8905 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Hmm, Merlyn didn't even try catching that arrow and he was standing still, whereas Matt was in a fast-moving car and the arrow was shot from behind when he caught.

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#60 Posted by maxxcveiler (1030 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt could win this if he is fully armed with 2 billy clubs & red suit, and malcom is unarmed with plain cloth. Otherwise, Malcom merlyn stomps

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#61 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt could win this if he is fully armed with 2 billy clubs & red suit, and malcom is unarmed with plain cloth. Otherwise, Malcom merlyn stomps

Why would Merlyn stomp otherwise? League armor isn't that protective. It helped Ollie when he got shot in S3, sure, but there's plenty of other showings of arrows or bullets going through it just fine, plus Matt doesn't even use piercing attacks

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#62 Posted by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt both rounds. Reasons later.

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#63 Posted by maxxcveiler (1030 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: @arcus1: against blunt physical attacks im pretty sure LOA is well equipped for defense

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#64 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: @arcus1: against blunt physical attacks im pretty sure LOA is well equipped for defense

Matt's well equipped too.

League armor doesn't make you immune to blunt attacks by any means

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What showings of League armor make you think it lets Merlyn stomp?

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#65 Posted by BruceRogers (17457 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: @arcus1: against blunt physical attacks im pretty sure LOA is well equipped for defense

The fact that they were constantly being knocked out by punches and kicks, tells me otherwise. Unless Malcolm had more protective LOA gear and I am missing something.

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#66 Posted by js_the_beast (936 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil wins

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#67 Posted by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually I'd say Matt for Round 1, Daredevil for Round 2.

R1, because Matt's just too strong and skilled even without his gear. It's extremely close though. And although Matt had great feats against Nobu, he still got his ass handed to him until location induced stupidity kicked in.

R2 goes to Matt because he has better feats with the suit and he beat Nobu who Merly honestly couldn't defeat. Matt can also clearly deflect arrows shooting straight at him, he even held an arrow (I believe), etc.

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#68 Posted by dami24434 (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt stomps. He is better in every way.

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#69 Posted by nfactor1995 (12944 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil could probably take a majority against Merlyn now in some tough fights.

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#70 Posted by Green_Ballerina (523 posts) - - Show Bio

IMO Nobu would destroy Merlyn in a straight up fight and DD kinda surpassed Nobu at the end of season 2 so I'm going with Matt. It would still be a tough fight for Murdock though.

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#71 Edited by AllStarSuperman (43249 posts) - - Show Bio

Merlyn still stomps

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#72 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

Merlyn still stomps

Both rounds? Any reasons?

IMO Nobu would destroy Merlyn in a straight up fight and DD kinda surpassed Nobu at the end of season 2 so I'm going with Matt. It would still be a tough fight for Murdock though.

I don't think Nobu would destroy Merlyn. He could win, but it'd be a good fight either way

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#73 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#74 Posted by nfactor1995 (12944 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Daredevil wins in a melee/H2H fight

2. Maybe Merlyn due to gear

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#75 Posted by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt isn't winning this.

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#76 Posted by buildhare (8715 posts) - - Show Bio
  1. Matt. Even if they're his S1 sticks they still afford him a ton of advantages over just being unarmed, and he's better overall.
  2. Matt decisively. Ranged isn't an option for Merlyn against someone who can consistently deflect sustained arrows with something as small as a baton, and despite being blunt force they are a lot more useful than a sword. IIRC Matt was able to block the Hand katana's with his forearms, so I doubt Merlyn's achieving a whole lot even if Matt wasn't as good as he already is. Bloodlust means Malcom is getting Nobu'd in under a minute.
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#77 Posted by Sy8000 (35492 posts) - - Show Bio

Merlyn stomps. Honestly Matt's feat against Nobu isn't that good to Arrow characters because all he did was outskill Nobu a bit, which anyone on Season 1 Ollie's level could do just fine. It's Nobu's stats and durability that make him a difficult match for some characters and Matt never really hurt him. Merlyn is vastly more skilled than Nobu.

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#78 Posted by Stahlflamme (5821 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil both rounds. His suit all but neutralizes the effectiveness of Malcolms and he's the better combatant, faster more durable, more Stamina, and that alone was enough for Matt to pull wins against more skilled fighters, which Merlyn honestly isn't.

@highaccuser: nice lowball. You essentially just said. Malcolmmwins, because I decided arrow is automatically more skilled and I work from that assumption.

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#79 Posted by buildhare (8715 posts) - - Show Bio

Merlyn stomps. Honestly Matt's feat against Nobu isn't that good to Arrow characters because all he did was outskill Nobu a bit, which anyone on Season 1 Ollie's level could do just fine. It's Nobu's stats and durability that make him a difficult match for some characters and Matt never really hurt him. Merlyn is vastly more skilled than Nobu.

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#80 Posted by Sy8000 (35492 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil both rounds. His suit all but neutralizes the effectiveness of Malcolms and he's the better combatant, faster more durable, more Stamina, and that alone was enough for Matt to pull wins against more skilled fighters, which Merlyn honestly isn't.

@highaccuser: nice lowball. You essentially just said. Malcolmmwins, because I decided arrow is automatically more skilled and I work from that assumption.

I do believe Arrow is more skilled by feats...

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#81 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

Merlyn stomps. Honestly Matt's feat against Nobu isn't that good to Arrow characters because all he did was outskill Nobu a bit, which anyone on Season 1 Ollie's level could do just fine. It's Nobu's stats and durability that make him a difficult match for some characters and Matt never really hurt him. Merlyn is vastly more skilled than Nobu.

Nobu doesn't have tons of feats, but judging by his domination of S1 Matt, he's very skilled. Sure S1 Matt wasn't as good as, say, S1 Arrow, but he still had some very solid feats, and S2 Matt being able to beat Nobu shows how significantly he's improved.

Nobu aside, Matt's also got plenty of other feats to indicate he'd be a solid challenge for Merlyn

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#82 Posted by Sy8000 (35492 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@highaccuser said:

Merlyn stomps. Honestly Matt's feat against Nobu isn't that good to Arrow characters because all he did was outskill Nobu a bit, which anyone on Season 1 Ollie's level could do just fine. It's Nobu's stats and durability that make him a difficult match for some characters and Matt never really hurt him. Merlyn is vastly more skilled than Nobu.

Nobu doesn't have tons of feats, but judging by his domination of S1 Matt, he's very skilled. Sure S1 Matt wasn't as good as, say, S1 Arrow, but he still had some very solid feats, and S2 Matt being able to beat Nobu shows how significantly he's improved.

Nobu aside, Matt's also got plenty of other feats to indicate he'd be a solid challenge for Merlyn

Okay but stomping Matt doesn't make him a match for Oliver especially when he was outskilled by current Matt who like it or not is never going to get the same clear cut feats as Ollie.

Not really, his other feats aren't nearly up to par.

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#83 Posted by Stahlflamme (5821 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Wow, you just keep going with that Arrow is the best and that will never change statement and then argue from there...

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#84 Posted by Sy8000 (35492 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Wow, you just keep going with that Arrow is the best and that will never change statement and then argue from there...

Not really...give me feats from season 1 Matt that compare to Arrow because Ollie is clearly better when you look at showings against fodder.

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#85 Posted by RBT (28600 posts) - - Show Bio

Not even as close as people are making it out to be. Matt is not even S1 Oliver level, let alone Malcolm's who outright stomped him.

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#86 Posted by Stahlflamme (5821 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: I could, but if you wanna define it like that, show me feats from Malcolm against fodder that compare to Matts.

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#87 Posted by Sy8000 (35492 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: I could, but if you wanna define it like that, show me feats from Malcolm against fodder that compare to Matts.

I mean Nyssa has feats of stomping 6 LoA Ninjas and Merlyn can treat her lack crap whenever he wants.

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#88 Posted by Ligerdrag20 (64 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm gonna go with Malcolm on this one xD

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#89 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

Not even as close as people are making it out to be. Matt is not even S1 Oliver level, let alone Malcolm's who outright stomped him.

Malcolm's never outright stomped S1 Ollie. I guess maybe their first fight could be considered a stomp, but Matt won't be nearly as easy for Malcolm to get the drop on like he was able to do against Ollie

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#90 Edited by Stahlflamme (5821 posts) - - Show Bio

@stahlflamme said:

@highaccuser: I could, but if you wanna define it like that, show me feats from Malcolm against fodder that compare to Matts.

I mean Nyssa has feats of stomping 6 LoA Ninjas and Merlyn can treat her lack crap whenever he wants.

That's Nyssas feat and its from after the LoA all turned to crap. But sure. Daredevil taking out seven members of the hand including those with automatic weapons.

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#91 Posted by RBT (28600 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@rbt said:

Not even as close as people are making it out to be. Matt is not even S1 Oliver level, let alone Malcolm's who outright stomped him.

Malcolm's never outright stomped S1 Ollie. I guess maybe their first fight could be considered a stomp,

I think the time Malcolm beat Oliver to unconsciousness can be considered a stomp. Oliver did little to nothing to Malcolm in the fight.

but Matt won't be nearly as easy for Malcolm to get the drop on like he was able to do against Ollie

I am not so sure about that. Its pretty much impossible to sneak up on Ollie and Malcolm was able to do it. Its already shown that Matt can be snuck upon by fodders. A hand ninja was able to shoot him with an arrow, IIRC. Even if the ninja was masking his own sound, he couldn't possible have masked the stretching of bow string and the sound of arrow through air. And this is what happens when someone tried to shoot Oliver. With or without warning.

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What makes these feats even more impressive was the fact that Oliver was not even expecting anyone to attack him. Malcolm had him so focused on what was ahead, he not only was able to walk behind him, but tag him with arrows as well, which is a pretty hard thing to do. I don't think Matt's environment awareness is really up to the degree that even Malcolm won't be able to sneak up on him.

Not that Malcolm needs to. He can best Matt in h2h.

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#92 Posted by webinyoureye11 (5761 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: when Ollie can smell someone 3 floors down, or fight people based on heartbeats(the main reason the hand got the drop on Matt who was unawares in his apartment) then you can say he has better senses than Matt.

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#93 Posted by Arcus1 (27817 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:
@arcus1 said:
@rbt said:

Not even as close as people are making it out to be. Matt is not even S1 Oliver level, let alone Malcolm's who outright stomped him.

Malcolm's never outright stomped S1 Ollie. I guess maybe their first fight could be considered a stomp,

I think the time Malcolm beat Oliver to unconsciousness can be considered a stomp. Oliver did little to nothing to Malcolm in the fight.

but Matt won't be nearly as easy for Malcolm to get the drop on like he was able to do against Ollie

I am not so sure about that. Its pretty much impossible to sneak up on Ollie and Malcolm was able to do it. Its already shown that Matt can be snuck upon by fodders. A hand ninja was able to shoot him with an arrow, IIRC. Even if the ninja was masking his own sound, he couldn't possible have masked the stretching of bow string and the sound of arrow through air. And this is what happens when someone tried to shoot Oliver. With or without warning.

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What makes these feats even more impressive was the fact that Oliver was not even expecting anyone to attack him. Malcolm had him so focused on what was ahead, he not only was able to walk behind him, but tag him with arrows as well, which is a pretty hard thing to do. I don't think Matt's environment awareness is really up to the degree that even Malcolm won't be able to sneak up on him.

Not that Malcolm needs to. He can best Matt in h2h.

Hand ninjas have specialized stealth training that allowed them to essentially be invisible to Matt's senses, until Stick helped him track their breathing instead. Plus, Matt was distracted by emotional stuff at the time, iirc. Some sort of drama with Elektra

Point being, the Hand's technique of lowering their heart rate has been the only way anything's ever slipped past a focused Daredevil, and now even that wouldn't work

He's capable of catching arrows from behind

That was the only time Malcolm was able to do anything like stomping Ollie (even though, technically, Ollie "won" that fight by ko'ing Malcolm and escaping)

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#94 Posted by deactivated-5a89ca5697052 (8063 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil.

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#95 Posted by RBT (28600 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

Hand ninjas have specialized stealth training that allowed them to essentially be invisible to Matt's senses, until Stick helped him track their breathing instead. Plus, Matt was distracted by emotional stuff at the time, iirc. Some sort of drama with Elektra

I mentioned that. The ninja was masking his sound, but he couldn't possibly had masked the sound of bowstring and arrow.

Point being, the Hand's technique of lowering their heart rate has been the only way anything's ever slipped past a focused Daredevil, and now even that wouldn't work

He's capable of catching arrows from behind

Oliver is capable of catching arrows with his back turned as well, and yet he got tagged by Malcolm.

However, I don't think it would come down to stealth. In a straight up fight, Matt would go down.

@rbt: when Ollie can smell someone 3 floors down, or fight people based on heartbeats(the main reason the hand got the drop on Matt who was unawares in his apartment) then you can say he has better senses than Matt.

Smelling someone 3 floors below has nothing to do with fighting. Fighting by tracking someone's heartbeat is a necessity for Matt, not for Oliver. When it comes to someone getting a drop on Oliver, Oliver is just as good as Matt. Matt's hearing might be better, but when it comes to utilizing them in a fight, Oliver is just as good. He was able to hear cops(who were trying to be silent) while he was talking to Laurel and when it was raining. He was able to hear a gun cock tens of meters away through a wall. Again, I am not arguing that Oliver has better hearing than Matt. He doesn't. Matt can hear sounds that are farther away and are fainter. But in a cqc fight, its not a requirement.

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#96 Posted by webinyoureye11 (5761 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: well Matt is blind, so hearing is the main sense he relies on to fight. He can track multiple people, and even dance around shuriken based on hearing alone.

To take a scene where Matt has his guard down in his home and gets hit, to scenes with Ollie in full gear, and full arrow mode and compare their environmental awareness is kinda leaving out context

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#97 Posted by RBT (28600 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: well Matt is blind, so hearing is the main sense he relies on to fight. He can track multiple people, and even dance around shuriken based on hearing alone.

To take a scene where Matt has his guard down in his home and gets hit, to scenes with Ollie in full gear, and full arrow mode and compare their environmental awareness is kinda leaving out context

Fair enough. Though I was not trying to imply that Oliver has better environment awareness than Matt. However, where it matter, Oliver is just as good.

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#98 Posted by Deathstroke_50 (409 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil both rounds.

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#99 Posted by Sy8000 (35492 posts) - - Show Bio

That's Nyssas feat and its from after the LoA all turned to crap. But sure. Daredevil taking out seven members of the hand including those with automatic weapons.

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The LoA lost a lot because the characters they were fighting were that good they don't really suck. Their feats are much better than the Hand anyway.

Also the question was about Season 1 Matt which Nobu can be scaled to...Season 2 is a version that could outsell him. Ollie's standard showings against fodder gangs and such are far better than Matt's were in season 1 where he struggled to put people down and got tagged often.

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#100 Posted by Mutant1230 (6648 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Malcolm wins.

Round 2: Malcolm curbstomps.

What's with the Dark Archer vs Daredevil threads recently?